it could have been two hours, he could've been five minutes that i had no sense of time whatsoever. but i remember when i got off the phone with my kids that i felt as though my heart was pounding out of my chest and i felt, i actually was very worried that i was having a heart attack. i've never had a heart attack but i do have my father had heart attacks. we've got family history. i was actually kind of worried about, i was very worried about that. i must have put my hand up to my chest because that photograph of me that was taken shows me lying almost on my back with my hand up to my chest. i don't remember lying on my back but i do remember jason taking my hand and just stroking it and kind of comforting me and telling me i was going to be okay and being a little bit perplexed that he was reassuring me because i didn't realize that i was showing how upset i was. >> this week you will also hear from massachusetts democrat jim

mcgovern. january 6th, views from the house sunday at 10 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span.org or listen on the c-span radio app. >> it is my great pleasure as a college history major and a lover of history and reading history to welcome our guest today, skip gates. i wanted to call on professor gates. he wouldn't let me, consider it a threat because he is the historians historian, just such an honor for me, brother, to be on with you today and to lead you through a discussion around your new book, "the black church: this is our story, this is our song." aro little background on profesr gates. he is the lecture university professor and director of the hudson center for african and african-american research at harvard.

he's obviously we all know he's an emmy award-winning filmmaker, peabody award winner. he has done so much to get history and particularly the history of african-american people in this country and in this world out to the public. he is, he is the man. and i could not be happier than to talk to you, specifically and especially about this subject and this book. i would like, skip, if it's okay i would like to start with looking at history. i would like you to look at it from what i thought was a lens in your book that i had never really seen before. i would like to ask you to look at it, which is could you look at the history for us of the black church through the lens of mother emanuel church? >> i'd be happy to. i think though we're going to show a clip from the series, aren't we?

>> oh, yes. i'm sorry. yes, we are. let's get thes clip first. >> and then will go to mother emanuel. i love this story. >> this is our story ♪ ♪ this is our song ♪ ♪ raising my savior above ♪ ♪ all day long ♪ ♪ >> that is great. >> in the name of jesus today, o god, we are rising. >> the black church was more than just a spiritual home. it was the ethics and a black life. out of it came our black businesses, our black education institutions. >> the black church gave people a sense of value, belonging and

worthiness.. i don't know how we could have survived as a people without it. >> tell the story of american religion is to tell w a politicl story. >> the black church helped us to withstand all the slings and arrows of segregation and the segregationists. >> we are willing to be beaten for democracy. >> with the five great black breaches of all time. there's so many. >> jeremiah wright. >> arthur taylor. >> howard thurman. >> presiding bishop michael curry. >> love can be sacrificial. >> did you think you would get one amen? >> i learned how to see a man in their eyes. >> somebody argued black church is the first black theater. >> the music is everything. >> how do you find gospel music?

>> gospel music talks about the majesty of jesus. >> entertainment shouldn't be in the church. what do you think the preacher does? that's entertainment. >> the african-american church is 80-90% women but the leadership is 80 have 90% male. >> there's an awful price to pay when you say that speed is if you say you were born this way, then you are saying god, you are a liar. >> we are aa testament to the goodness and the grace of god. everything in the world has tried to kill us and we are still here. >> it was our place where our

people made their way out of nowhere. it's a place in which our souls could look back and wonder how we got over here. >> we call it the church. >> wow. let me just say to any of our listeners and watchers today if >> you need to see that series. in tandem with the book, it's just so powerful, skip. >> thank you. >> sorry to get ahead of myself. i can't start weight talking to you. what i'm thinking, this idea of

looking at the history of the black church through mother emmanuelle, asking you to look backwards from 1816 and then forward to 2015. there's a lot going on there that you i think beautifully bring out in the book. yes. if i forget asked me about the three black preachers i built a triangle around them. that mother emmanuel let's go to charleston south carolina. south carolina was a majority black state. louisiana mississippi were majority black states and ground zero for reconstruction was south carolina and georgia

alabama and florida were almost majority black so there is a real concentration of black power as was said to be in the film in the six southern states. that was true even before the civil war. it was called me grow country because it was so full of black people. and because of the economy and the productivity of the whites and the expertise of africans they brought to south carolina. but also a sizable three black community the ame church formed in philadelphia by richard allen. and formally born in the year 1860 in charleston, and there

is the emmanuel church and in 1822, a man was accused of plotting and insurrection in charleston. that he was free how did he get free? listen to this because this is one of the ironies of american history and the complexity of history. and enslave man in 1799 he plays the lottery i get the convenience store and $11500. he used 600 of those dollars to buy his own freedom from his so-called owners so then he was free then in 1822 is a very prominent me we don't know if it really wasn't insurrection but he is accused of leading this plot of insurrection in charleston and

he was found guilty and of course he was found executed. the church was completely destroyed there was enormous sensitivity actually paranoia because the haitians defeated the greatest army on earth of napoleon bonaparte when he became emperor and wanted to reinstitute slavery on the island. >> and a brutal form of slavery. >> the average lifespan on a sugar plantation was seven years. it was the richest colony in the history of the world sugar was like crack forgive me for using that analogy but normal people, students cannot afford sugar.

queens and bishops and kings only wealth that - - wealthy people could you sugar before the new world opened up so that could be mass produced to be one of the worlds first commodity products. it was also used to bolster the working class to give them more energy to be exploited and some anti- slavery figures in england boycotted sugar because they knew it was a product with blood dripping all over it so the haitians defeated napoleon when he sent his brother-in-law back in 18 oh one to reinstitute slavery which was abolished in 1794. but then you know those details but he died a horrible death in a prison in france

but he was led to freedom so the americans were paranoid about slave insurrection so he was found guilty and executed they destroy the church so cut to the end of the civil war and all the's black people in south carolina and then the ame minister in brooklyn basically takes himself to boston because they cannot proselytize in the confederacy and 90 percent of all black people as late as 1910 lived in the former confederate states were in the south before the great migration. so they knew it was fertile grounds so ground zero had to be charleston and the first

thing that they do is rebuild mother emmanuel church and who they hire as the architect to build it? denmark bessie sign you cannot make that up. so he becomes a major figure in the renaissance and reconstruction and starts his own newspaper and then runs for congress to be elected 1872 and 1876 so the third piece in the story is dylan roof and did not choose accidentally because it was the heart of reconstruction i did the last interview i believe with the reverend. that wednesday night he was at prayer meeting.

with the saints. and dylan prayed with them for an hour and then as we know he murdered nine people that night and mother emmanuel. so that completes the arc of mother emmanuel church. but we tend to forget this fat black men of the former confederacy got the right to vote because of the reconstruction act three years before the 15th amendment was ratified black man in the south got the right to vote in the summer of 1867. 80 percent of the black man eligible to vote in the south registered to vote in the summer of 1867 i call it the

first freedom summit and in 1868 they voted 500,000 black men cast their ballots for the republican party we say ulysses s grant but he won the popular bow by just over 300,000 votes so black people said they elected a president of the united states through the popular vote but the most important point in reconstruction was the manifestation of power through the ballot was south carolina with the construction election the house of representatives secretary of state was black, secretary of treasury was black. and in the racist film the most ever made, we tend to

think it was about slavery. but it wasn't. it was reconstruction it was the people of reconstruction and the evil to give black men the right to vote remember that famous scene they were in the legislature? with their feet up? eating chicken bones and then they all stand up and cheer and they said made legal. [laughter] it was terrible. >> it was horrible. >> so thank you friends - - asking the question and you can see the power of the church in politics. and often in christianity accuses religion to be the opiate of the people and as i write in the book there is more to that. >> absolutely but for

african-american christians they were never allowed to be apolitical because the black church was born in politics as a protest of anti- black racism because they were attending st. george methodist church in philadelphia as an integrated church and had to sit in the back in the jim crow section and as jones is praying and assure comes and tries to tell him to move to the black section they get up and walk out and then they form their own church forming the first black at this couple church and richard allen forms the ame church and then it becomes its own denomination in 1816 and he is the first bishop.

>> i would point out humbly he was not an episcopalian. [laughter] >> they have been a biscuit alien as long as they have been christian. >> the abyss couple church in cumberland maryland and the family was methodist in virginia 25 miles away. do you know why so many black festival church are called saint phillips? >> yes from ethiopia who was representing the queen she was a real queen and he was the treasurer and he is reading the book of isaiah.

he wants to be the evangelist there was no other black figure in the new testament of black episcopalians could seize so if you see it's philip that means black. >> . >> and the other was the one who helped jesus with the across. >> any of the north africans we claim them. >> that is true. >> so let's stay with politics in the quest for social justice. you write in the book let me read this that from page 193 you write about in the wake of george floyd and in the shattering times with the rising generation demanding

the voices be heard the dehumanization of black bodies and, that this be the last lynching once again to be challenged to respond with leadership and grace and resiliency and inspired action. that is beautiful writing. so talk about the church and the social justice movements over time. >> you wanted to make the point how political the black church was from the beginning frederick douglass is not to have risen spontaneously on nantucket island in the anti- slavery society but is not true. he was speaking at the ame church between 1838 and 41. and he taught sunday school in baltimore.

so he was practicing his oratory already in the black church and he was very religious of course. his rival had the big battle at the national negro convention if they encourage the enslaved people and then to be a presbyterian minister and then of course they are a leading abolitionist and of the 16 black man elected to congress between 1870 and 1877 when reconstruction ends and three were ministers my friends has 2000 black men were either elected or appointed to office during reconstruction and 243 of them were ministers. 40 acres and a mule?

that came from general sherman meeting the 20 black ministers in savannah. and he says what do you people want? this is after sherman's march. what do people want? they said, they had a stenographer there the whole transcript is in the newspaper. we want land and we want to be left alone. they knew land would help you accumulate wealth and they understood the importance of property because we were property. so they had the intuitive understanding of the importance of property and sherman a couple days later issued field number 15 reallocated the land of the enslavers to the enslaved. that was the first 40 acres and a mule.

and that radical land proposition came out of the meeting with those 20 black ministers now cut to the 20th century the face of the civil rights movement in the north certainly one of them was adam clayton powell junior just like his father the pastor of the baptist church and then of course the face of the civil rights movement in the south after 1955 would be doctor martin luther king jr., jesse jackson the first black man at least who had a serious chance. as a minister and doctor king's lieutenant and mayor of atlanta who was a minister taking it up to january 5th

for those who has at the knees are baptist church he is done ministers so because of the fight against anti- black racism and white supremacy was unrelenting black christians by and large could not avoid being slaves. so our ancestors developed a form of christianity with the liberating god added center and that was both after one's death. but liberation honors. black christianity was supposed to be a redemptive force for the nations whose original sin was slavery. that's a completely different identity and the sister denominations whether methodist or the baptist

church. anglicans i'm ashamed to say worse level accepting the baptism of black people as you know an anglican priest was the negro and indian advocate said these people are human beings there are questions whether africans were real human beings are not. i know it sounds hyperbolic but it's true. he said i know that they are human beings because they can read and write him because they can laugh only human beings can read and write and laugh but he refutes the idea that if you baptize them they will demand their freedom he says no. we'll have to give them their freedom but we are duty bound by god to save their souls so

we can keep them enslaved, baptize them and they will get their freedom and their salvation. but what most of us don't know and it is important to remember about the great awakening of full and that is the big american protestant reformation that unfolds in 1750. 59 percent of enslaved african ancestors arrived in the united states after 1750. and we tend to forget that so the methodist and the baptist welcome black people with open arms. this is long before the formation of the national baptist convention in 1895 but those of which caught fire within the black community but white protestant denominations welcomed the methodist anabaptists to start welcoming

african people into the church in the great awakening around 1750 intel eventually the methodist church for example was split over the issue of slavery and the question of abolition. when i wrote that line about the last lynching, i thought just maybe hope against hope maybe george floyd would be the last person murdered unjustly by the police that we know that's not the way it has turned out. >> sadly. let me take you back to what you were talking about with

the meeting with sherman and you write powerfully in the book of another famous meeting with black ministers which is the meeting with linking or the issuance of the emancipation proclamation. >> yes august 1862 abraham lincoln sends a man who was in favor of the relocation of free black people out of the united states from panama to mexico to haiti your back to africa. and he gathers five black men that come to the white house he once them to be the leaders of the movement to leave them out of here. your people and our people are

enemies. it is your fault we're in the middle of the civil war in the middle of 1862. >> the north is losing at that point. >> big time. and lincoln obviously knew he would have to free the black people. but they said until the end of 1862 through november he was still entertaining the colonization that you could remove these people that their presence as jefferson stand on - - said their presence of white people is incompatible. >> i hate to interrupt you but that is a piece of work. >> it is bad. >> even said orangutans in

africa meet with african women. you cannot get more racist than that. [laughter] >> we were told the students that they had to make the case that human beings were members of the human community community but jefferson puts it in there he doesn't say that directly that he is refusing that says we all know that orangutans prefer african-american women as part of the animal kingdom or as part of the human family that's why reading and writing was important because everybody reviewed the book because she was the first person of african descent to publish a book of poetry in english and everybody wrote about that.

benjamin franklin visited her she had to go to london to get her book published nobody believe she can do it by herself voltaire said i guess they can write books and george washington during the middle of the revolution is brought to the headquarters. and washington's headquarters a block and a half away jesse could see in african. >> to see this new thing. >> to see this phenomenon. i'm sorry. i lost my train of thought. >> we were talking about lincoln's meeting.

>> yes. so news of this hits the black community had frederick douglass goes nuts because they said no. one of the arguments is that this is our home. we are not africans we are not going to liberia or sierra leone that was set up for africans captured by the british on ships. and then library of course set up by the colonization society to free the african-americans to go back. they were not from liberia by and large and very few of the ancestors by 25 percent we

know because of the amazing database and then 25 percent of the ancestors came from gambia which was heavily muslim and those that came from congo angola into amazing things that i learned that historians argue about the percentage but that is the figure given by he would that about 20 percent were muslims when they got on the boat. >> i did not know that until i

read the book. >> i told the story in the book and i interview one of his descendents and he left behind the manuscript and how to find mecca and pray to the east and the first black church and then to argue about the first black church but the first african baptist church in savannah in 1773 there is a great scene in the film where to interpret and being carved into one of the pews. [laughter] and there is a sensor in the kitchen.

but 20 percent of the ancestors were muslim when they landed what is now the united states and a percent that we don't know because the king of congo converted to catholicism in 1491. the year before columbus sailed the ocean blue and he converted his kingdom. he understood power he sent his son to be trained as a priest and became the first bishop and then came back i think in 1517 and became the first bishop the long reach by the tenth century the 12th century is why they practiced which is now senegal and gambia. so absolutely no question

about that fact. >> if you can think of the first century of black people enslaved and traditional religion of course was a very powerful force but particularly in cuba that 30 percent of ancestors were your about. 20 percent were islamic. the unknown percentage baptized roman catholics and then the majority had traditional african religion. so think of it that the anglicans that were dominant wedding africans join in a surreptitiously worshiping their own guides forming the

bland of that religion then the anglicans open and then it really welcomes black people but he was trained to be like martin luther king and i remember he told me and the black theology came out we happen to be home in west virginia at the same time and said that christianity is no different than white christianity. i wasn't new into studying the black church at that time. i would say when i was 12 and then converted that 14 to the past couple church because that is a true church. but i joined a very

conservative methodist church. when you join the church you could not dance or play cards. and i love to dance. i couldn't go to movies. i joined the choir. i read the bible. that cap me good with the sat. because that second text of african-american literature got me through the king james bible. solomon? my goodness. and i did that because my mother was very sick and told me one sunday i looked up and my parents were all dressed they took my mother to the

hospital she bent over and cried and said she was going to die. i cannot believe it. i was so close to my mother. i went upstairs to my bedroom and i got on my knees i cried and i prayed please that my mother lives. i will give my soul to you in a few days later my mother came home from the hospital and did not die. i looked in the mirror and said oh no. [laughter] so i hitchhiked there were so few black people in eastern west virginia i grew up halfway between pittsburgh and washington and the allegheny mountains my family have lived there 200 years with all branches of my family. you don't think of that as the hotbed of african culture but we had one minister for two churches. one in the county seat.

they would have their service on saturday afternoon and then sunday morning service was in piedmont. so i hitchhiked. i didn't think about being hurt. that is how innocent life was i hitchhiked the 5 miles and i go to the service and there were 15 people they were out 80 and then there was me. but then at one point in the service if anybody wants to give their life to christ the call to the altar and he said to me, skippy, the bathroom is back there. he thought i had to go to the bathroom. [laughter] he said what? it was very moving. >> and there were five questions and i said yes and i

answered in the affirmative everyone cried and i cried i hitchhiked back home and in those days there were three channels. we were watching gunsmoke and at 830, 9:00 o'clock my mother and father and my brother and said be guess i better tell them and i said anything happen today? [laughter] i said i joined the church. they said what? [laughter] i never told them i and they never figured it out. and the reason i switch to my

father's church was because they were really good people. those that do a little mini holy dance they were fundamentalist they believed the world was created in seven days and dissented from adam and eve and the world was created in seven days. i have the same mind then as i do now so allegory, evolution that the road not created in seven days and i didn't want to be a hypocrite so my brother came from dental school and said we have had enough it was either hard days night our help, or whatever, 1964,

whatever movie came out. i enjoyed it so much. when i came out i thought a bolt of lightning came from the sky because i committed the sin. i didn't decide to convert to the episcopal church because it was much more liberal and it fit mymy growing intellect and it ws the right thing for me to do. but those two years that i spent, i did the best i could and it was good discipline. i learned a lot. i learned a lot about spirituality. i learned a lot about myself. people often ask me, why did we make this film, and why did i write this book now? and in a way it was because i wanted to pay tribute to that era, to the tradition. the black church is the oldest, the most continuous in the most important institution created in history of african-american

people. and think about it. it is the thing as you saw and a clip when oprah says what would we have done without a church? the church kept us from going crazy. we learned to defer gratification, not talk about deferring gratification from one generation. the last africans arrived legally in the united states in 1807, right? we want free as as a people l the ratification of the 15th -- of the 13th amendment on december 6, 1865. so all those generations of our ancestors had to believe that little phil jackson and little skimpy gates would one day be free, educated and be talking to each other in some medium that they couldn't even imagine sitting around a fire laughing come slapping five, my great-great-grandson is going to go to harvard, you know?

they go, you're crazy, boy, you're crazy. and there's going to be an african who marries a white american and his son will be president of the united states. that's too much. but other people bullied, i had to believe in the future and they learned to believe in the future through the church. the other thing that i realized was that the church was a laboratory for the formation both for the african people genetically, because remember we represent about 50 ethnic groups from senegal down to congo angola and then to mozambique and then to madagascar but overwhelmingly between senegal and the congo. and it was a laboratory for the production of black culture, fob black music. one of the greatest, the czech

composure came to the united states 1892-1883 write an essay and he said the only original american contribution to world civilization was the music o of the former slaves, is spiritual, yes, a voice called the sorrow songs. i haven't announced it yet but the next series we are doing is about of the black social networks, the way that we replicated the world behind the veil as the voice called it. like thehi black mason's -- >> fraternities, sororities. >> yeah. >> okay. >> the divine nine which the vice president harris is a member of the alpha kappa alpha was. but also the national medical association, the national dental association, national bar association. all those black institutions which model their existence on the done nominations of the black church. but phil, after that i'm going

to do the history of gospel music. >> okay. you know, okay, they're getting mad at me because i'm supposed to do q&a now, but that's one thing i wanted, i had on to talk to you about. i wonder to talk about black music. but let's go to q&a i want ask you, i'm going to close by asking you to tell me like your favorite gospel song. will come back to that. .. >> but you can ask me now. i'm the guest. >> the racial makeup of the united states and northern black churches. >> that's a great question. 1910, 90% of the african-american people lived in the south after 1910 of course black people began to migrate to the north.

the majority of black people never lived in the north and it starts in hundred 70 but it came very close. the percentage. it was more or less balanced by 60/40. i can't remember, i don't have a hand but 1970, they started moving back to the south in part because of air-conditioning. >> really, that is fair. >> the disappearance of industrial jobs urban north drunken to the north in the first place during world war i assortment to results, large black denominations formed in the city, in the northern cities because 90% of black people have been of the south when they moved north they took the church with them. the other thing is the last

reconstruction congress leaves house of representatives in 1901 and gives a beautiful speech and says the next black man elected to congress is oscar in 1929. why? black people moved from alabama to chicago concentrated on the south side and have the right to vote because of the gratification in the 15th amendment and they have the members so they were disenfranchised starting with 1890 from eight of the former confederate states. i'll give anon example, they wee disenfranchised through state constitutions votive repression for black people tesla only my colleague ever pass.

i'll tell you how dramatic it was. in louisiana, majority of black states the civil war 1890 -- 1898 there were 131. by 1904 after the ratification of the new louisiana state constitution, there were 1342 black men registered to vote. that's amazing from one 30,000 and six years one 30,000 42 so the northwest the growth of the black church and growth of black political power which is why congressman john lewis, another ordained minister beaten on the bridge. or they marching for? voting rights because that th was the heart.

the movie is based on the novel by thomas nixon and in it he says the worst thing that ever happened to the libation was not the defeat of the south by the north, it was giving stuff formerly displaced the right to vote. it was a reversal of all that was beautiful and true in the history of civilization it's an amazing passage. he said that was the portrayal civilization by these unscrupulous people in the north. >> it would almost be hard to believe if it were happening now. >> yes and that's why i made the series before this on reconstruction because i want

people to realize what's happening now is a repeat. 1865 -- 77 black people spent 13 15th amendment and it was rolled back by redemption and that's what we saw with the rise of donald trump and the rise of the tea party and thank god donald trump was denied a second term because we, being black people, women, gay and trans people, are rights have been taken, never does finished our discussions so let me wrap that up. we can as you said, the north

was being defeated so the newspapers credited the fact that lincoln met with these five black ministers and encourage them to lead the free community author, emigrate to africa or latin america, douglas and all the other blackib abolitionist o crazy. lincoln released preliminary emancipation proclamation in september 1862 had he still in his message to congress, in december of 1862 but when emancipation is in its final form, there's no mention of colonization and he added that blackman will have the right to bear arms and fight for the union and lincoln himself says,

he called him in a letter in 1864, he called him a black warrior. the northwards not have one and in the last he gives he says he's decided, he's convinced certain black men, not all black men should have the right to vote, 200,000, he didn't mention a figure but we know there were 200,000 blackman internet navy, army and navy together. he said my black warriors, and affect and the intelligent negroes. we don't know how many there were truthfully you could say that my to his speech because john wilkes booth was on the ground of the white house when lincoln sat down and talked,

that's it, i'm going to run him through meaning i'm going to kill him and he says to abraham lincoln, lincoln underwent a major transformation about the mental capacity black people, citizens and their rights to bear arms and fight for the union and in part through his friendship, i could find, david knows more than frederick douglass. >> i had a conversation with him like this two years ago. >> he's great. the documentary rights, i just looked at the rough cut for the documentary which we aired on hbo next year, fingers crossed. >> i've got one final question, how can we implement the book, the black church into a k-12

curriculum? >> jim and i have talked about this, my dear friend who needs no introduction to this audience has asked me to work with them on the curriculum about the black church and jim is a hard person to say no to so i would like your input about that because what i did, i want to give a shout out to my editor at penguin random house, what i did found a way tell a sweep of black history during the evolution of the black church so it like bringing a telescope around so instead of fitting the church into the history of african-americans, i turned it

around tell black people through the history of the church, by evolution of the denominations. was going to tell you about the triangular structure. >> yesel. >> i've already talked about this, he was born in what's now western virginia but daniel pain was born in 1811, he was born free, a member of the brown society, not to dark, he was wrong. he becomes part of the church in 1852. he believes blacks should be enough straight line and sing hymns. none of the gospel music or the holy ghost, not affect so after the civil war he goes down and

he's going throughout the south or the a and b church and he goes to a traditional black church and people are getting the holy ghost and he jumps out of the pulpit and gross that's the devil, you got to stop that. so i love that story and fan mcneil turner is born free in washington d.c. slavery is illegal in washington d.c. and he's born 1834, he is a chaplain, one of the few black chaplains for the union army and he becomes bishop of the church in 1880. he goes to south africa for the ame church.

in the 1880s, 90s, he comes back and at that meeting of the national convention in 1895, he gives the speech he says god was a negro. god was lack people couldn't believe it. that was amazing. when i read that, i went wow, that was 1895 and the national baptist convention was complicated, my favorite stories is about reverend boyd, and in 1896 he formed the national baptist publishing company. in 19024 the citizens savings bank part of the denomination and in 1908, they were all under the national baptist convention. >> that is amazing. >> that shows the institution of the black church just through

one denomination alone. >> i need to do fiscal they are asking me to wrap things up. >> we are just getting started. >> i know, i've got another hour or so and me. but thank you for the book, thank you for all the work you do, thank you for everything you've taught and have modeled, you are a light in the black community. could not thank you enough. i want to thank our guests for attending and being on with us today. please go by the book. by the book, read the book. [laughter] a recording of this conversation will be available on the website, please check that out. gli resources thank you all for attending and god bless you.

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