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tv   Akhil Reed Amar The Words That Made Us  CSPAN  August 26, 2021 12:15am-1:18am EDT

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>> while with these television companies support c-span2 as a public service. >> weakens on c-span2 are an intellectual feast, every saturday you'll find events and people explore our nation's pass on american history tv on sunday booktv brings to the latest in nonfiction books and authors it's television for serious readers. learn, discover, explore, weakens on c-span2. >> an evening everyone the historical society president and ceo and i'm thrilled to welcome you to tonight's virtual program the words that made us the constitution of 1760 - 1840 i'm particular grateful this evening
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for sponsoring the program. entrant tonight. i'm delighted to welcome guests of lewis and jd mg to thank you for your great partnership. just before i introduce her speakers i want to recognize and take new york historical trustees who are joining us to see me first and foremost we have a standing chair of the board of trustees and the chair of the executive committee richard and trustees brian kaine, suzanne, in one of tonight speakers who will be joining us j momentarily on sta. it would like to think members of the work chairman counsel, we are so grateful to each and everyone of you for your encouragement and support especially at this challenging time. now weme are pleased to welcome
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back to our virtual stage, a professor of law and political science at yale university before joining our faculty he clerked for a judge not associate justice, stephen breyer with the judge on the u.s. court of appeals for the first circuit, also a regular visiting professor at columbia law school in the author of the recent release book the words that made us america's constitutional conversation 176. joining us as moderator is richard brooke kaiser senior fellow at the national institute, senior editor of the national review and an author of numerous books including give me liberty, history ofty americans the sessional idea and john marshall the man who made the supreme court he was historic in curator for the new york
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historical expedition, alexander hamilton moderate acumen entrant into work with him back then, president george w. bush awarded him the national he-man metal and a white house ceremony. would you like the program to last an hour and 40 minutes for questions and answers, the questions can be submitted via q&a function on your blue screen let me just say please remember to use a q&a. our speakers will get to as many questions as time allows. and now i am happy to turn our virtual stage over to tonight speaker. thankto you. >> hathank you louise, thank you for joining us and it's always a pleasure and i'm honored to be at the b new york historical society it's always a pleasure to be with professor, he's a
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dear old friend and has been for years. he has written awr terrific boo, the words that made us america's constitutional conversation 1760 to 1840 and your book covers a lot of things that you would expect to be covered in such a book and you talk about the federalist papers in the constitution convention and the real richness and what impressed me so much its richness and its things that may be less expected, maybe a little surprising but i want to start with two words from your title
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in your subtitle i want to start with words and conversations which maybe is not the first thing in the controversy in this development, which conversation are you talking about, who are the people in it what kind of thing are they saying. >> they begin at a british subject in the new world and by talking to each other in newspapers especially but in letters and face-to-face conversations they had talk themselves into becoming americans they begin to realize whether they're in massachusetts or virginia and otherer colonies my story begins in 1760 and begins to understand what they have in common with each other
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and their talking to britain initially they see themselves as the new world trying to persuade their brothers and cousins and friends in great britain that britain is not up to treating them well. and yes some people need to focus on the idea of conversation but the constitution is a text so life and ordained constituting act putting about an ethic boat up and down which more people were allowed to say yay or nay. anything significant in world history it was not just the vote was a series of conversations in a dialogue, some people for the document and other people
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against it and people in the middle on the fence they were listening to both sides. newspapers, you're a journalist the newspapers and the. media are indispensable to this democratic or name a project. their talking initially of becoming americans but that would be the declaration of independence and then eventually they talk themselves into becominghe indivisible he americans, one nation, indivisible, that the constitution and they do it epically through words, pictures, political cartoons, some very high political stuff, some really simple stuff, poetry, it is an amazing inclusive robust and inhibited wide open distinctly american.
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>> a free-for-all were just talking about one of them is a big-name and you cover the people on the presidential placemat and the people in her wall booth isuzu boom boom clover station, the characters is much bigger than that. >> it is answer for example act i, steam one he's a pretty big-name buddies not the american revolution he is new england's patrick, henry henry was he was patrick before that, i held the story in the chapter of three people who are going to be significant over the next 15 yearsne. it is skeptical of the people who'd call me a self patriot.
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>> american-born loyalist on 1775. people don't really know his name or his story is thomas hutchinson will become the real governor of virginia -- massachusetts and he is lieutenant governor he's american-born, if you had asked someone as lee is 1770 or so we are definitely going to 1765 which are the two famous boston smart people want in-depth supporting american independence and who's going to end up, i'm siding with the king born really smart people would've mined in my set saying franklin is going to be the king and illegitimate
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son and in particular because i want the audience to see there was another sign even to the american revolution. wasn't it a demon out all. >> my analogy would be he's wrong the harvard educated, sober, traditionalist and he believes in hierarchy and he loves his country but his country is written in the liz's hometown boston and if he was lucky enough to be in born 20 years earlier he would've had to pick between them but he does, he ends up picking his king sosi do try to rise in the catholic characters in ther bureaucrats n franklin and hamilton. >> you just mentioned cartoons and you also mentioned benjamin
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bagley by the way your title almost soldier conversation, it's also images involved inti this. tell us about the great cartoon that franklin generates very early on in this conversation. >> he is such a genius he invents bifocals in them franklin stone in the lightning wrong and he invents social institutions and the first secular university lending rivalry of philosophical association but he is also in minced that the world's fears political cartoon. it comes from america early on into very democratic culture and its simple and in 1754 the picture of a snake and he has a
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five viral meaning in a could say # crew the calling sector work together, with britain to defeat the french in the backcountry in the early stages of what will become the french and indian war. in the b very same page in 1754f the newspaper he's a newspaper magnet and if you were alive today and might be referred rear dock or something like that, the very same page is a picture of a snake # join or die and is also telling his audience about a young 22-year-old military officer from virginia and bravely confronting the french's name is george washington and he's going to give his name and papers opened on the content, 50 different references at age 22
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and will hear from him again but i thought cartoon which is so simple it is easy to replicate and cartoonist "net retweeting today because printers don't really pay a lot for content, they're not paying like you and me to write stuff, they are basically publishing proceedings of local assemblers and judicial opinions but also republishing things that appeared elsewhere if you're in new york and printing something from philadelphia or boston or london in this joint image goes viral first in 1754 but ten years later when the colonies are beginning to unite against
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london and has a rebirth and it will lead to the stamp act congress where they joined together and ten years after that it has a re-reverse and he hibernates and he reawakens he's like a phoenix and in 1774 he reawakens for the continental conference back in franklin's philadelphia which will involve joining against britain and if you don't join you will die and eventually this meme is going to be the single best federal argument for the constitution. we have to hang together, otherwise britain will cut us to pieces or france or spain, geostrategic arguments individual union in my god franklin is seen a versiony of that a more british version as
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early as 1754 he puts it in a simple picture that ordinary people can understand and three simple words that make a powerful political argument. joined, he's convincing a moment. >> how many characters. >> it's one cup, it's instagram, it's amazing snap chat. >> how many characters are left, he is smart enough to stop when he's ahead . . . george washington. and i think this is one of the most striking point that you have made, which is the american constitutional development of >> there happening within our own and also being impacted over and over again by the world. and talk to us more about that
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predict what is our position in the world have to do with her thoughts about how we govern ourselves. >> and are protected by oceans right or wrong pretty. akhil: full of week join together we are and if we don't when you plan the borders between south carolina and north carolina and north carolina and georgia inn maryland and pennsylvania. in pennsylvania and new york and so on so the genius of franklin is to understand and eventually nwashington and hamilton at the atlantic ocean will be an amazing boat will protect us against the old powers of europe but only as we unite to divide each other and but europe can actually plant up against each other and divide and conquer passion and have a policy towards the west to make an american domain the national domain enough just a virginia
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backyard or pennsylvania's territory or connecticut and what becomes ohio. and so the western reserve. so yes, americans as early as 1754 franklin in washington are beginning to see the possibility of world at war in the constitution comes out of a revolution is part of a larger global struggle. so our audiences very s impresse and very sophisticated historically creative course if you ask them, when did the first world war started, they would say whether started in 1914 in the european area, no, and started in 1754 and america's back country when a young officer named george washington
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gets involved in confrontation between the two great superpowers of the world. france and england and that's going to eventually in 1754, join or die and albany congress and some of the get together they will become the world's first global war. second in the twohe great powers and other european powers get involved inth the action in this work and called the french and indian war, seven years more than involved conflict on multiple oceans and multiple continents in the new world in the old world simultaneously and will culminate in a massive redrawing of the global map of canada will move from the french column and into the british column and no conflict in world
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history before had ever involved multiple conflicts in new and old on confidence in multiple oceanic struggles and it is the first world war and at the same time it is generating that world war of world conversation because warships can move troops more quickly than ever with a train ships can move his papers back and forth more easily than ever in london in his papers are being read in boston and boston newspapers being read and funded and the both of them are being read in philadelphia and new york city and charleston so you're beginning to have actually a genuine world conversation in a conversation about constitutional first principles like what should be the rules for the empire. and britain's having one candidate will havete to pay ths really expensive war and they think it is only fair that
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americans should be the big beneficiaries and we just gotta read of a huge front threat to the british colonies of the coin to start opposing taxes immediately after the war said in seven years more and conventionally begins in 1757 and is with the treaty of tariffs in 1763 but in the aftermath of that to pay for that more in person will try to tax america is going to eventually native to the american revolution and american revolution will be the continuation cold war because eventually france will jump back and and even though the really sophisticated, the american revolutionary, is one part of a larger global struggle in britain as to defend the colonies in india, and africa and keep the troops at home so that the french want to invade but we might think that we won the battle, will there were two french fighters on land and sea
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for every american evening yorktown and we are part of a larger world struggle and at the time, we are puny, $3m americans and 30 million french printed. richard: in washington in the way starts all of this with his frontier frankness. but by yorktown he's there commanding the american party and then in the next decade, to become the first president of this new country and you praise him as a constitutional person this might strike people as a little odd, you know, we know george washington was a great man and we think of him as a great general obviously and we think ofvi him as a great
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executive. but he didn't write any federalist papers and he didn't write the declaration of dependence and he was at the constitutional convention but he hardly said anything. and if you identify the very important it constitutional papers so what is his contribution to this conversation it and how does he make it. akhil: substantively and methodologically, he is the indispensable man and without him, there's a constitution remotely like the one that we have some horses take this conversation the method card. a you need somebody to listen a conversation washington is not a great scribbler is not a big talker or a great writer or a pamphlet but, he is a very good listener new brings people who disagree and this is to both sides, and hamilton will be on
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his right and jefferson on his left and he has more counsel cindy listens to his advisors ctand actually, he is a good generator of words but he doesn't write pamphlets, he writes letters to people and he is a wonderful correspondent. in his correspondent in turn, unintended, their light network correspondence today, giving him intelligencean information from all parts of america and even from across the water needs asking what was happening in france and so he writes more and receives more letters than just ouabout anyone other than thomas jefferson i think and you can confirm this by looking at the national archives online database which is free and were searchable new just see how many letters go back and forth to washington so he has a wonderful
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listener and he is unanimously elected president rated every single electorate for him even the people about against constitution vote for himim because he is unanimously elected in parts because he try to listen everyone and unify the country and holds them together, a symbol of union. now substantively, now moving from the method that he listens to everyone and he is sober, and john adams, a really a great book on the adams family john adams is not always the world's best listener pretty think that jefferson's right thomas jefferson so ideological, he cannot hear what he does not want to hear. just as unfamiliar because we have a problem today and i am so impressed at washington who does not have strong ideological commitments says let's get to the facts. i want to hear both sides carefully and then i will make up my h mind. so jefferson is not the world's
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best listener and john adams is not the world's bestn listener and some of these people are better at projecting but now what's washington substitutions idea, union. paint just like franklin, die in the join or very fate, the join or die may of 1754, on that same page is actually a reference to the young officer george washington and this is benjamin franklin's talking about george washington at age 22 and he understands, for military point of view that unless the colonies hang together, and the independent states in 1776, they are done for. d so he is a continental list and so who's at the right hand throughout the american revolution for you to basically, pretty early on, alexander hamilton. anddde alexander hamilton to bow phrase, america, he isn't just
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about massachusetts the way john adams might be of the virginia in the way the tom jefferson or james madison. he doesn't have a single loyalty to money anyone say, he does come to new york and he comes from abroad and he loves america as a whole and he tries to be summoned into existence as of the key idea is union, join or die and national security and if we do not create an indivisible union which is what washington is advocating in the early 1780s and so is hamilton called the continental list then they will become the first page which are far more influential than anything that he wrote and make it geostrategic argument for unions, they pulled together and yes you can have a huge mode called the atlantic ocean, you won't need a big army, and the
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powers of europe as long as we don't kill each other, we've got to get rid of the land borders and make it like that unions of scotland and england. so britain had 10 million people they beat france with 30 million people and how do they do that are that goodpl capitol structue banks and things like that in washington understands thanks. and the others as much but also, the strong indivisible union between england and scotland, that will be the motto for the more perfect union, american because with england and scotland printed kingdoms and the fighting each other, and their coming down the english. and that is not is what is conducive to liberty and unions will lead to liberty and that's washington that was his first last and always he had his army on the continent after york county is the only one he really is the army and he gives it up
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and he does not make himself change as emperor and he could have read but he understands the liberty and union are one and inseparable and he says that during the revolutionary war and he says it actually in a letter to the company of the constitution itself and beyond state sovereignty and he says that in his farewell. and it's written largely by hamilton so he listens to everyone in hishe big idea is tt we are all americans, he's a southerner understands the north and spent time in the west and he is the embodiment of american unions read and continental army is really the only genuinely constant and continental congress and the confederacy and congress is right will basically and so washington is the embodiment of america and he is franklin's snake. richard: there's another
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virginian, and you also link to washington and to hamilton who outlives both of them by not only outlives them but in the state in office many years after they are gone and that is john marshall. what is his role in this conversation. akhil: so you mentioned the obvious, and one of the things that i am most proud of, proud of my work as an author but am also proud of my work as a muse i try to inspire other authors and i try to learn from my favorite authors of both you and i really respect and images i do that with cartoons buried but i encourage you to you early on it to write a book about lincoln it, there are really about 2000 bucks but we need another one by you and lincoln's relationships to the founding and i love that bucket pretty good even help
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you, you can give you the title, founders. richard: you did pretty. akhil: to give your title and i told you write about john marshall and you did in the biography and you didn't need my title by title for that one was the last founder. and yes, actually madison outlives marshall a few years but madison has been out of the office since 1817. and he dies in 1836, and marshall predeceases him but marshall gets in office as a chief justice for 34 years or so, he is the last founder and that he is continuing to have an impact into the 1830s where hamilton or madison - so
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franklin dies in 1790. and washington dies in 1799 predict and hamilton is killed in a duel in 1804 and famously adams and jefferson are going to die of 1826 rated 50th anniversary of the declaration of o independence predict throughout all of this, marshall is in our what is he doing it, is vindicating marshall's vision. he is the great nationalist that continental list of george washington with whom he fought and served at valley forge if you are valley forge, with washington the, and hamilton and as marshall was, you understand you need to money, and support the troops. if we don't we are dead. and adams was not there and jefferson was not there in medicine was out there and they
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don't feel it inon their phones like marshall does. nationalist, an immense respect for washington it and it was washington's first biographer read an immense respect for hamilton this brilliant lawyer and marshall use this and hamilton legal ideas about the banks and many otherer thanks. and one other thing that he does, nationalist figure also for being a good listener and a talk about the relationships between the founders of jefferson and madison team up and adams, takes enemies he is a loner rated he first is with hutchinson infanta he said hamilton in the hamilton was trying to help themil in various ways and he starts with jefferson but then they be, you know, rivals so teams are
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important jefferson and madison team often hamilton and washington team up. and marshall finds the great joseph story and the team in america were particularly well when they combined the north and the south and in particular massachusetts and virginia. so marshall is virginia and story is measure to shoot spray do anything about all of the other, virginia massachusetts change and rhetorically patrick henry from virginia radio first president and vice president's are going to be george washington and john adams and they were together in 1776 and by the way, so did jefferson and adams again in virginia and a massachusetts person. and adams vice president is a virginian of thomas jefferson and one of jefferson's vice president is the massachusetts
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also going to be one of madison's vice presidents of the north and south team of massachusetts and virginia is important so the answer to your question about john marshall is the last founder and he strengthens the judiciary and is a washington man and hamilton man continental list and he finds a partner from another region and he is regular, they bill brilliant and impressive teams. and madison and jefferson orbiting. richard: think that it is fair to say that both of us are not exactly members of the fabulous party, we are very sympathetic get too it. this is animating our talk for the last few minutes. so say good work for thomas jefferson pretty i agree with what you said but after all, he is who he is so what does he add
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to this pressure. sue and let me begin by saying as a younger person, i adored jefferson's were skeptical of hamilton. and yet other people have changed my ideas about hamilton, miranda, she's my idea and others. and i change my idea about hamilton rated in my idea about hamilton rises and jefferson but if you would investment age 20, we were at college together and i would've said if onlooking of ever to have a son, i will name him jefferson. so my views about jefferson have changed it but a good word about him, especially the young jefferson afraid he such an idealist, he dreams of a world that could be better and he is the architect of what will become a northwest ordinance that proposes initially to antislavery not just in the northwest but in all western
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territories. any dreams of an america that is open to talent and help the smart kids who are not born of privileged and to be able to rise because of their native abilities and academic aptitude predict he inspires ordinary people with his belief in ordinary people and we are all his impressive attributes does not get the common man. he's a little bit to stiffen from a geo strategic perspective, thank goodness, he says lots of thing truthfully but what is the president tends to do smart things when is president. in one of the smartest things that he ever does this double
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landmass of the united states. epic achievement. it is completely consistent with his geostrategic idea and i'm not sure that the federalists could do that because the french liked jefferson and he likes the french and is wonderful at buttering people up and discuss a much and so i'm not sure if napoleon would've ever done that because john adams body found a way to annoy and he did find a way to annoy napoleon because he so bought his such a blunt spoken person partied and he found a political party and you and i have to respect people are good at what they do. andd ashley pretends he's not appalled but he really is madison's more openly and amazing political partnership and they created dominant political machine thatin will basically work the federalists.
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and he championed it free speech is really important and johnal adams does not get it and thomas jefferson gets it a lot and his partner medicine gets it even more and a champion freedom of speech against this position act and guess john adams are going to form political parties and be the dominant political party all of the wayed to abe lincoln to unionize people who are political and then we have to respect that he created a newspaper empire of affiliated newspapers that support his way of thinking about this. he creates "fox news" network. as an affiliate so he understands the democratic newspaper culture of american is always telling madison, don't do this against hamilton pretty ripping to shreds. he is too good a newspaper scribbler. you've got to go after him so
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there's the reason that the guy is on mount rushmore and i criticize him because some think that is important to me, slavery issue, he gets worse over time. he founded the political party that is basically have a southern base nears the relevance of this today. today there's a party in both parties have this. this jenny and i think in the end you have to think the soul of the party the conscious and you can't give into the big lie so i respect her for that but i see the pole that were going to lose votes were going to be used looser basics. that's a similar thing that convinced medicine and jefferson they know the slavery is wrong they noted the harsh there might be the end in order to defeat john adams who has made a criticism of john adams a crime, they have to create a party that party has a southern base
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because they are politicians. and they made a political button were going to buy and attend that's it required some compromises okay and so they get worse on slavery even though deep in the bones they know it is wrong. i respect their idealism but in order to keep their political machine operative, they become increasingly pro slavery and they actually this a story that i tell, by their biographers and our friend jack, you tell it better than anyone else a book on james madison and esa on slavery, medicine disappoints me to add to that, he is getting worse over time theng ashley at the end of his life, he said this send the slaves out into the west. like spreading the virus, which entered thatit is the opposite f
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what jefferson and madison said early on. it prevents it and that is what will trigger the civil war. eventually the slavery in the west and so washington gets better on slavery as time goes on. but he realizes it's wrong and he r provides and jefferson doesn't in medicine thousand, franklin gets better on slavery as time goes on in his last act, the last chapter for all of them. richard: tell a story franklin before we get to the questions. because it's so funny and it is a great story. akhil: a talk about these great men and in the last scene i give you the death scene dramatically. i love them that they died. so i tell you how each one in depth, deep idea there printed man for both the washington and franklin, there are dying of
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breath, basically emancipation abolition and we should get rid of slavery in g washington doest pretty basic like writing doesn't make a big scene about it and he doesn't as a business person, plantation owner by providing and many emancipation proclamation who is, he is a newspaper guy and he actually first proposes to congress, he writes a petition and for the congress to do and the maximum possible congress should try to diminish slavery. and the people from georgia don't like that and it really is franklin and the one guy actually said what is been franklin know about the constitution, nothing party to so franklin writes in these brilliant and it cartoons and satires. in the appeal to the democratic
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culture and is and he writes as if he actually does this and then some of the arguments unregistered about why we simper deserve slavery. something that happened 100 years ago, there was this era slaveholder who actually was defending the enslavement of the christians in every single argument that the georgians made about enslaving the black stuff ofnd makes the course, made by basically african eras were enslaving white european christians. after do the work in the don't believe in god better off here than their homeland and he was to intermarry with a lesser blooded holy scripture and authorizes this and actually this is good for them.
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so he takes every one of the georgian arguments and he flips it around racially. and it is a brilliant spoof it is the same guy but at 16 years old pretended that he was a middle aged nature and at franklin's post on his own brother runs newspaper and doesn't realizeea that franklin has created this fictional character nate doesn't any knows this and so he knows that america will eventually recognize this is his dying message to america. do we want to actually, in a hundred years still be defending slavery the way 100 years ago that slavery was defended and people were enslaved work year. under european christians. c-letter. one the funniest things is that he claims inhe this book that ws written 100 years ago, memoir from some distinguished diplomat
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somewhere and people in philadelphia actually went to the bookseller said you have a copy of the book. it is made up but it was so well thought of and it was so tongue-in-cheek so now we have some questions coming. here is one. very pertinent to what you have been saying how does literacy of the american people. were we getting more literate or were we already literate in 1760. ... h ...rg
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even in virginia that is more cavalier in new england centers, if your protestant you will believe you have to read the bible and americans to read their bible and even someone as late as andy jackson, i have good words to say on andy jackson he believes in the divisible union and will stand on jackson shoulders and reese's during the session, andy jackson is a self-taught he goes to church every sunday and listens to people preach from the gospel is the bible reading, bible discussing culture and very jonathansomeone like
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edwards and ehrenberg publishes a sermon and even 1760s remarkable among writes america has more newspapers and more newspaper readers per capita than any country in the world including britain and technological developments that will facilitate that and when you get the erie canal you can now go all the way around j america just all the way around britain, you can go from chicago across the great lakes and buffalo to albany to hudson to new york and chicago letters can travel faster ships can travel faster eventually and railroads
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by the end of my time. on 1840, it's a remarkable letter writing and whose franklin, postmaster all these guys are newspaper guys five of them are newspapers scribbled her's and the six george washington reads more newspapers than anyone around but there also letter writers are audience can read these letters free online the national archive founders online has every letter searchable to every major founder and that includes women people often talk about women, i feel bad about that and abigail, she is amazing and because adams is a public servant and
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sacrifices himself are chosen for his country he is away from abigail for a long time and because he's away in france there are lots of letters back and forth if they had been in the same place haply they would love to be in the same place they really love each other and respect each other and she is really smart and fun to read but because they are separated damn amazing letters back s and forth between abigail and john anderson newspaper culture. >> more of the german speakers did these documents to what extent were they translated into german language newspapers. >> because they didn't speak german one third of pennsylvanians of the time of the declaration of independence
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and german newspapers are really important as late as the first congress and transnational proceedings in pennsylvania to german and the speaker of the house i remember fits frederick or gustus and you may know because of our mutual friend a great friend of the new york historical society and army in lincoln is a secret owner of a german language newspaper in springfield, illinois in a german anguish speaker is about 10% in their all-pro lincoln because secretly he's the owner of the newspaper that is saying nice things about lincoln lincoln at a freakishly early age, he does have books in his homes but he reads every
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newspaper when he can find them in early on he's writing an op-ed after op-ed and ominously and many were not part of an op-ed because the newspapers back then did not have a partisan affiliation or the national review today or the new republic of the nation and thehe ideological newspapers i think the new york times on one side and the washington post. he also owns a german newspaper and they were german language newspapers. i have hundreds of sites citations that's one of the big things in the book is not be better than the folks that came before us but until ten years ago, five years ago they were not online and searchable and now they are through database every academic and get through
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america's historical newspapers. i don't have to go to 40 different cities and find moldering piles of newspapers i can find them online but the truth is i did not look at too many as a german language newspaper which are around because they don't speak german. >> one question about the religion diversity in america during this period and is a problem or is that somehow a benefit. >> is a challenge in madison could've theorized that building on experience even in virginia andd the baptist in the anglicans. today we say all christians, i promise you, it only kills two over centuries and 82 will do protestant catholics will do,
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for hundred years religious warfare in central europe over angels and pinheads, protestants and catholics, catholics and protestants, no christians and jews, jews and muslims, muslims and hindus, she and sunni, and he too will do in america is way more than two they have congregationalists up in new england freethinkers in rhode island and hutchinson who is the great-great-grandmother of thomas hutchinson and roger williams, freethinkers in rhode island i and baptist, congregationalist in new england, new york is very poly locked many different, quakers in pennsylvania and delaware a lot anglicans in virginia and the carolinas and there will be
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new by the team 1840s the shakers and the methodist and more baptist coming on board o baptist are important in virginia and madison befriends a baptist in particular. that is a lot of religious diversity and that will be a stumbling block and i haven't mentioned catholics in maryland but for the geostrategic reasons think we have to hang together in three years join or die the first confederation writes a letter saying why don't you join us, even though we recently fought a war against you love the french and indian war even though your catholic and were protestant in your french-speaking and were english-speaking, geo strategically is going to be useful for us to have you u on board so you don't stop us in the back wall were fighting the
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brits on the coast. they sent him a nice letter and like this is that you membership you are like aou credit card you been preapproved for gold card with the american express in the mastercard or whatever. in the canadian say thanks but no thanks into americans tried to conquer and then if they come close but fail, religious diversity is one of the things that will make it hard for americans to join or die, 13 different colonies found at different times for different reasons, virginia is basically about making money in massachusetts is basically about religious freedom so when my story begins in 1760 they are
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not americans or virginians in south carolinians in massachusetts when but because of newspapers and british to treat them all pretty badly in the course of acts three newspapers talk themselves into being americans and basically save themselves there's a lot of religious diversity but that can be a strength rather than a weakness thoughts were t madison spent the religious diversity can be a strength and at the time and of washington and hamilton and franklin to join or die idea. it's going to be assembled in block and here's one final thing i don't know if i told you the two places in the world that are pretty self-governing and free are the brits, the active union and the swiss the swiss with a
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german, italian, french and don't have thehe same religion protestant and catholic out of the hang together is in a working democracy, we have catholics and protestants in britain, here's what the federalist say defensible borders you only need a navy that is defensible swiss even though there protestant and catholic they have a border called the alps if we can create a continental union hang together while the defensible border called the atlantic ocean we don't need armies or any liberty we just need a navy to beat the spanish armada and less threatening to liberty, so
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that's the idea geo strategically were one people even though religiously were not quite one, his work with the swifts you can make it work for america the federalist aid talks about the swiss and the british example. >> a brief time for a last question it's an interesting one constitution never mention the two political parties and very soon lo and behold there are two particle parties. >> that is the story that i tell when the former friends and allies jefferson and adams who work together in 1776 begin to diverge and adams makes a crime to criticize adams in the sedition act and by the way marshall doesn't join adams to marshall's credit he's never all in on this act but in response
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to that jefferson takes a loose coalition and carries it to a much more organized political party and will become a permanent political party and the seeds of a two-party system emerge after washington passes and reaching as the elective and you'll get the seeds of that in the contest between jefferson and adams and it'll be constitutionalize in a 12th amendment designed to make the electoral college save for a two-party system we won't go into all the details but i promise in the book that i do. >> we still haveet jefferson and adams parties walked among us. >> the oldest party in the
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world. >> one of the things that i said about your book on madison i thought it was his particular biography because it captures madison and he had no other job basically except of public service hamilton was a lawyer in washington was a general in a business person in jefferson down bold and long this is the only thing that madison does is a powerful start from finish and he's a party guy he's creating a party he's not that different than mark hanna or mitch mcconnell or lyndon johnson or franklin roosevelt and the people across the spectrum abraham lincoln is a party guy you love politics and the media he creates a party that is what you get distinctly about madison
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he's a paul after judge her mother paul and he disappoints us lynn change cheney lindsey graham do you go to the short-term interest of the party that will keep the base or even if it goes against the party there are certain core principles that we have to abide by and that's the next thinking you will not understand if you think their. share list as opposed to a politicaled actor. >> on that note which is the front note and also maybe a hopeful note on the one hand were saying madison was a politician but on the other hand were same politicians can be like james mattis. this is a terrific book, thank
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you and thank you louise and thank you new york historical society spiritual ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good afternoon everyone i am donna martinez welcome coming live mentone raleigh, north carolina we have a really fascinating discussion scheduled fory youou today i'm so glad may of you are along for this, the leftist notion that our country's founding

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