this is a common family practice and it is one that i have been fortunate enough to engage in as well in a number of items given to me with another by my grandmother and by my great aunt. many of us i think hold dear these books, photographs, articles that we received from our grandparents and lovers. i asked the sac is in keeping with that tradition. it is also stands apart. and it's that something that we feel very familiar that arrests our attention, that draws us and allows us to see wealth in a simple cotton fabric. >> to watch the rest of this program visit book tv.org and search fortile miles on the book all she carried using

the box at the top of the page . >> tonight we are thrilled to welcome davey hernandez and amy stewart. davey hernandez is a former reporter for the new york times and has been writing about theintersection of race, immigration, class and sexuality for two decades . her most recent book joins us is "the kissing bug: a true story of a family, an insect, and a nation's neglect of a deadly disease" . she has written for national geographic, npr, all things considered" which and the atlantic, slate and guernica and she is the author of the award-winning memoir a cup of water under my bed. growing up in new jersey in a factory town in the 1980s, hernandez believed her and had become deathlyill from eating an apple . no one in her family and either the us or columbia spoke of infectious diseases and even into her 30s she

only knew her aunt had died of a rare illness called chagas but as hernandez dug deeper she realized chagas is more prevalent in the united states than the zika virus. 300,000 americans have chagas. whydo some infectious diseases make headlines while others fall by the wayside ? hernandez fence began searching about answers about who we choose to care for and who we ignore. she interviewed patients and abby downey are just and even veterans at thedepartment of defense . hernandez new book the kissing bob tells the story of how poverty, racism and public policy have conspired to keep this disease hidden and how this disease intersects with hernandez on identity as a niece, sister, daughter and researcher and a citizen of a country that is only beginning to address the harm caused by chagas and the

dangers it poses. a riveting and nuanced investigation into racial politics and for-profit healthcare, the kissing bob reveals the intimate history of a marginalized disease and connects us to the lives at the center of it all. joining hernandez in conversation is amy stewart. stewart is new york times best-selling author of the top sisters series based on the true story of one of america's first female deputy sheriffs and her two rambunctious sisters.her popular nonfiction title is the drunken botanist, wicked bug, waking plans and power confidential. her books have sold over 1 million copies and translated into 17 languages. this evening's event will include an audience q&a so hit the q&a button at the bottom of your screen if you would like to ask a question. as well as if someone has a question you'd like to know the answer to please flag that particular question by clicking the thumbs up.

consider supporting daisy files by purchasing a copy of her new book. a two by the kissing bob along with 80s book will be shared in the chat a few times this evening so daisy, 80, what a joy to welcome you both and thanks for going us class to any foregoing. >> i live in the same neighborhood as your publisher and the way i found out about your book is dropped by 10 house to drop something off and they handed me a copy of the galley and i immediately, i that's all i knew about it and i immediately went to look up transmitted diseases so before when you read in a few minutes, we will explore the personal side of the story but before there are some things i wanted to tell you and the audience is that i really became interested in

the issue of insect transmitted diseases when i was writing wicked bug which looks like kind of a goofy bug but i did a lot of research and what really struck me about insect transmitted diseases and the thing i would go around the country telling audiences is going to tell you all the stories about these creepy bonds and the diseases they transmit in far-flung places that maybe you've never been to and you might be thinking the reason we don't happen in the united states is we have, we just picked the right country to come to as our ancestors but the fact is the united states we have good sanitation. we have medicine, we have helped control and a number of ways of helping people deal with eye health crisis that is insect transmitted diseases and we choose not to share that with the rest of the world . that's why so many things

happen in other places but not here and of course even in the united states where familiar with lyme disease and other types of insect transmitted diseases but just on a very different scale so i was so excited about this book even though it's a tough story to tell because i just like we don't fully grasp these stories and you made it real and you may very human and it's a story we can all connect to so thank you for this book class thank you so much. i agree with everything you'resaying . >> ..

i was provided you wrote about charles darwin so loudly from that section together more about or -- with my auntie was diagnosed with after many years oscar life to this disease and its product, it does not have a cure. it's a parasitic disease in the parasite usually goes after the heart and i didn't get all that information when i was growing up, the information i got was describing that my auntie must have eaten kind of fruit in her

home country in the parasite was transmitted that way so part of the book is describing making sense of this disease the journalist chapter all you need to know is my auntie was diagnosed these and lost her life to it, auntie phoebe, auntie's nickname was like the bible auntie, she is very religious but nicknamed that because she has a very long memory seems to hold onto every families story on behalf of everyone in the family so that was her nickname. she's the one who began when i was a child explained the disease to me. her stories were akin to praying

the rosary they repeated. she moved about our kitchen table with her lipstick and tall tales about columbia's actions. her story about how shamus died when she was young, that's how she was. i might have been almost 15 the kitchen started to feel crowded for my arms and legs, 5 feet 2 inches, quite tall. thinking about her, i asked how can eating a fruit almost killed her? it was contaminated he answered have? the fruit was contaminated by be choked, a spanish word for insect which can also mean a man's in america it can mean a little devil. years later when i started reading about kissing thoughts, i didn't know what i would find

did not expect to come across charles darwin 18 cody five, darwin was 46, four years into his trip to south america, the one that gave the basis for the origin of these. march of that year, he plays argentina. the air was hot before full day, darwin found no water in only a few houses. many of the village he noticed a field the color of blood, a locust invasion race from their colleges ranges umpires waved torch of the locusts, they shouted hoping the noise and smoke were turned away tiny piece but nothing worked. darwin the men had time heals when they finally escaped locust normally expected well. the village was nestled among

others will is not working under window treatments but when darwin closed his eyes that bugs from their hiding places and did not care it with it was charles darwin or not. the sun vanished ravenously set off for the evening unto his body expected him to be asleep they expected to feed on him darwin was awake and horrified leader despite being a man of science he wrote disgusting it was the of these insects nearly an inch long black soft growing old part of your person gorged with your book book to know family of assessing books for their vampire bite. all over the americans about the

other names. here in texas and the southwest open a bloodsucker argentina bolivia dakota probably comes from, language feelings today is book that much but soulful it is probably a reference to poly conflicts as walls of houses made from mud going to the mountains there in mexico is that years after growing up a man from mexico tried to explain it to me this way their little ones big ones kissing the i'll stop there. for listening i have a special

guest today oh my goodness right here, that's a little fact is probably for squirming right now entomologist made this for me, but that what looks like you guys think they are noticed when i began this project, i was terrified of insects immediately this fear going through this world. >> we all have these kind of

stories in our families we grow up with, maybe a certain mythology about what happened and we don't question it and there comes a time when we question it so i wonder if you can talk about that, while is the process like for you and at what moment did you start to realize i think there's more to this and maybe this is something i want to dig into somewhere? >> that is something i really tried to document writing this book because it's a little bit of breadcrumbs going up to i was translating for my auntie when i was six years old. at that time she understood english but she was not english dominant so i was in first grade it was between her and the nurse said to the house when she was in between surgeries. she was lucky week diagnosed in the united states and new york city by a doctor there. i knew there was something

happening with my auntie but didn't quite know what it was and when i was 13 and another family member told me it's because of is the contaminated fruit and as i read when i was 15 i said wait, the fruit has something to do with an insect. there is never any language around insect transmitted disease or zoonotic disease, can affect language around. then when i was a little older in high school when i first heard it was not just this random name for a disease, it was named after doctor carlos from brazil discovered the disease in 1909, that was quite a shock. write about this in the book, realizing this whole time i thought it was a fancy latin medical term but it was actually a person, the person who discovered this is connected with this. then when i was older, i learned a little more as my auntie over

decades going in-and-out of hospitals being bashed for her it was her gastrointestinal system so i knew from the medical caretaking side the kind of impact the parasite could have but it wasn't really until she died, which was a shock for me at the time because i think it's hard for people who don't have chronic family members understand the magical thinking you get into over the years because you're constantly in hospitals, the person is constantly sick, you just think they are just sick again, it's just one of those times again the end of her life was quite a shock when i started researching is when i found out this isn't rare at all, there's 300,000 people in the united states will have this disease and they are all like my auntie, they are immigrants from south or central america or mexico very few of

them know they are infected because the parasites can be dormant in your body your whole life, there's only one in three people infected who go on to develop usually cardiac complications so it was in the wake of her death that i started to put more pieces together including that my family not totally lying to me about the fruit, you can have fruit infected with these insects but usually it leads to acute outbreaks because it's been transmitted or in some kind of food which was not the case for my auntie, she probably had exposure at some time to the insect. it was a long journey putting pieces together. >> it sounds cool telling you about it now but when i was writing it, trying to do 10000 puzzle pieces, it felt like a

lot of information at the same time. >> in some ways, that's true with any book. when you look at the finished book, it all seems so obvious and clear but when writing it grappling with the story and deciding if this is a book or not, none of that is there. >> that's true. >> one of the things about this book, it feels to me like it very much part of a particular kind of science writing that's very immersive and blend so beautifully in a first-person story with an investigative journalist research perspective but also, you are talking about this as a real person, what's interesting to me is it's all real people.

science is a story we tell ourselves about the world we live in and that's what it is. scientists are the storytellers, the ones figuring that out and putting it together so the rest of us can understand it so i think about henrietta, a stripe she became personally involved with and it's a story about people. in some ways, she immersed herself, generally not a family connection but she's putting herself in the story you get to read about how the scientists do their work so when you are thinking about writing this, did you like now it just looks like a beautifully done thing, was there a time when you were like what is this going to be? how am i going to work out how

to tell the story? >> it's interesting you mentioned those books because i studied those books very carefully because initially i was not planning to include any memoir. i thought it would be on the rebecca side where i would write more intimately about the patient's i met so i give full credit to my amazing editor whose like what about memoir? what about the story with your auntie? she's the one who teased that out and in that process of writing that i realized that intimate voice is what needs to be the backbone here are the talking about my complicated mother-daughter relationship with her or it by all the just in south america, that voice was consistent because you are right, that's what i was seeing in the book that i study mary's book, especially the cadaver, so fantastic. what i saw was no matter where she went, it was her voice, that intimate quality to the voice

not only introducing me to people and places also the same voice explaining the science and making it a text i wanted to read as opposed to a text i wanted to avoid. >> i did think about that a lot and it was a very conscious decision to have that voice be the anchor through the book and a guide for people because i knew there would be readers -- i hope there would be readers who it may be shy away from a book about medicine and science who would pick up this one. i thought about that a lot. i with them in and invested in this but it's a juggling act and i came to appreciate more deeply what science journalist have been doing for a long time especially as you say immersive, for example i did, we have insects in the united states usually in the southern part of the country, all over california

southwest and texas has quite a number of species of them so having thought about being terrified of insects, i ended up in texas, i wanted to see what researchers were doing so i went out in the middle of the night and found out what it looks like. it was shocking that it was so easy to track them is what was surprising for me but also amazing my fees are real people and they load up the truck with their equipment and spend hours looking for bugs, hoping to catch what they came to catch, it is fascinating. >> the scientists you've connected with were more eager to talk to you because of the connections, were you forthcoming with that? i'm not just saying journalist, i've got a family story here, do

you feel like that made them more open and welcoming? >> with scientists and doctors initially, i was not disclosing a personal connection so i had interesting interviews with them. reporter: the end of my interviews they would say why are you interested in this? a lot of people, as you know, have not been interested in this disease, it neglected. it's on that world health organization last of diseases around the world so there's kind of remember or think of it as an afterthought, why do you care? sometimes they would ask because i'm latina where they hurt my last name is we are doing a phone interview, they would say is there any chance you have a connection with this disease with your family background? the reason i didn't mention it, i'm trying to think i was

planning to do any memoirs at the beginning so i was like why would i disclose this? as they went on, i have set classic journalism training so you never reveal anything personal. however, when i approach families, i always share that because i grew up in a working-class immigrant family, i completely understand some of the dynamics at play when a stranger shows up at your door and asks about your medical history usually i had a connection either through another patient or doctor but i still felt like i know it's going to create a sense of ease if i disclose that i hadn't auntie diagnosed with this disease, it was tricky because so many times patients wanted to know what happened for her and i couldn't say she's managing her

symptoms, i couldn't say any of that, it was peaceful to tell them she ultimately died from the disease so i think it put them at ease but it created, i was a traditional journalist in that sense when i was interviewing patients. i was inhabiting multiple positions at the same time some of the patient's i ended up interviewing over several years, spending time with them and hospitals so the relationships change over time. >> if you could talk a bit about what it's like bringing this back to your family from the piece you read, people will understand there were stories in the family so here you go finding out what really went on

and placing it in this global context even if there are other transmitted diseases and then you bring this back to people who are the keepers of this other story. >> they were always really surprised how much i was learning. i don't think they saw it in contradiction to the stories we had in our home, i think they saw it as an addition to their story physically, they're still going to hold onto, she was contaminated by eating fruit but it was additional information and i think they appreciated, i think they were also moved to hear about the stories of other families because we were isolated with our experience. we met never met another family impacted by this disease so i think there was an emotional journey sometimes especially for my mother and her other sisters

to hear yes, somebody having cardiac issues, they were also in-and-out of hospitals. as soon as that strange expense, people have in any kind of patient support group where you are grateful to not be alone and at the same time you don't want anyone else suffering from this either. probably the most surprising story that i brought back home was the fact that the parasite can be transmitted child and mother during pregnancy. intentional was definitely not something we knew about at all. my auntie had not been able to have children herself but we had no idea this existed. that was a shock because public health campaigns go underway in different parts of latin america two different capacities. historically people have really thought about this as an old

person disease because that's when you see the symptoms. you can be effective as a teenager even has a child but now it's 30 years later and you are in your 40s and now you are exhibiting shortness of breath and need a pacemaker or defibrillator so that's what one patient said to me, her father was infected, her sister as well, her sister was in need of a pacemaker but she thought this doesn't happen to children so there's limited public health information out there so that was really probably the most surprising news i brought back home and disturbing because i learned that around the same time the zika virus was happening in the headlines so everyone was talking about that so it felt terrifying to know that this disease could also be transmitted that way and that was another part that was

shocking, about 8000 babies born every year with this disease and the u.s. the number is smaller, anywhere between 60 -- 300 that we don't use prenatal screening in this country for this, but something i hope hopeful will start to screen in the coming years because when i dug into the numbers being on the journalist side, how many babies are being born to women from these regions? rb south america, mexico in the u.s. and its 700,000 babies every year, that's quite a number children we continue to miss. >> that's another public health piece something i heard a lot of stories about whether it's somebody from america to the united states or similar journeys elsewhere in the world when you come from one place and to another place and in this new

city or country about the health issues you might have dealt with back home. we have to remember not everybody has had the same trajectory around the world. >> absolutely. in the u.s. because of the way medical schools are set up, there's not a lot of teaching on parasitic diseases, the idea is to graduate from med school and go into a specialty and it's not going to be parasitic diseases because there is money that i was able to talk to a professor who does he teach about parasitic diseases and was able to be honest with me and set my students are graduating with enormous amount of debt they are not choosing eclectic diseases so it's a little more miraculous you get to teach one course on this and cover it but i think the push has to come from public

health advocates and the public health side of it. >> for those of you who don't know, the carter center has a huge health component focused on insect transmitted diseases. i couldn't remember this disease was one or not. if it isn't, they have about six others they work on but they are committed to actually eliminating them it takes that kind of focus, in this case, a big foundation to go in and it's going to be village by village, one pill or vaccine at a time till there are zero cases left. without that, where are we? >> as a big moment for me while i was working on this, exactly that. realizing so many times we've contained diseases rather than eradicate them even though eradication can be possible so with this disease, it affects

immigrants and low-wage jobs don't have the same kind of access to healthcare that others have and it's more akin to lyme's disease, you're not going to catch up from being in a room with someone who has it so it really as incredibly easy for it to be neglected but at the same is true with the history of tuberculosis, we don't worry about tb in the u.s. anymore but did not eradicate it globally so when you look at the u.s. who has tuberculosis times to be immigrant communities or those in prison or homeless shelters, congregant living spaces. same thing with hiv, you look at hiv in the rest and you think not an issue anymore and it's completely an epidemic of the box community in the south so we make these decisions, i am a little nervous what that means in terms of covid. i feel like i appreciate biden's

pushing now for vaccines to get to other countries because we can't have a containment policy, it needs to be eradication. >> i was going to ask, i'm assuming the book was completely done and turned in before covid started so in hindsight, has anything changed in terms of your perspective or thinking about this other disease? is there any new insight that has come to your? >> we halted because the beginnings of production when the pandemic hit, we had to pause and say how do we address this in the book what was surprising was how easy it was in the book to transition so

amy, you probably saw a copy earlier, now there are some new pages on covid because it was disturbing how easy it was all the racial disparities in healthcare talking about this disease and tuberculosis and hiv clearly came to the forefront and still are at the forefront with covid so even vaccination for today i was hearing a news report about vaccination rates in california overall doing the but there are is proportionally much higher for wealthier communities and white communities than they are for communities of color so those disparities, there in our face. covid isn't our face but i think it's easy to forget about them much the crisis is over so i feel like my perspective is that i'm hopeful maybe because of scale of the pandemic we are not

going to forget so quickly i want to put it away so quickly but i think it's yet to be determined. this pandemic has changed how we think about public policy and healthcare and healthcare access and racial disparity still remains to be seen. >> i thought about that, to and how it spent a year for anyone can see what's happening in india and so on. maybe that will stick with us. we are going to start taking questions pretty soon so think of some questions and put them in the q&a and we are about to get into that. before we do, i was interested in a little bit about the writing process, did you write pieces of the book as they felt

complete to you and later had to work out the timeline? was the process of writing this? you've got this family story goes back a ways into prep i know what the research process is like, sometimes you do a bit of it early and then you have to rearrange everything in your mind to put into an airtight. what's it like? >> it's fun to talk with you because you really know it and describes perfectly. i would say probably -- even though i was not going to write it as a memoir, i was not planning to write much about my auntie because as i was learning new information, i was gaining insight, i would say yes, little fragments. just thinking this is for me to get more clarity about what happened in our family. when our splash and i could hav.

i would say probably the patient's story which makes it probably what was written first because initially i thought i would do a deeper dive into their story, make them the backbone of the book so yes, it's part three that happens first in the research, i was writing as i went along. i did have the big i've got six months to sit down and start writing further but i would say a chunk of the research i did as i went along, was really challenging and that being the memoir part where i gave my editor, i don't even know how many pages, i should go back and look, she is amazing and returned to me with, here are chapters in this long text is

amazing but it was almost last moment possible the structure for the book came to me from the original title quest in search of the kissing book bug that i realized i am searching, i've been searching for so much and it sounds obvious now but it was quite a moment of lights going off in my head, i am searching so that's when i realized i could organize it around that searching for the family story and searching for the sides and part two because i felt like i wanted readers to have that might not necessarily super technical information but definitely the medicine and science, the understanding before they went into reading about families and part of it was cap my family is not the

only one that has mythology around it just like the patient who said this is a disease that affects only old people, i was having that kind of material in the chapters about patients so i was realizing i need readers to have a technical information they can appreciate now how it looks on the ground in someone's day to day life. i think i took a picture at runtime, 1 million post-it notes on the wall, if i move the part the middle, will it make sense? there is this craziness all around. the post-it notes were attached and little problems because i was trying to figure it out in my words of wisdom are like you will find the structure, it happens when you least expect it, has that been true for you i

think structures for your book or are you the other way? i know some the structure at the beginning before any writing can happen. >> for me, one of my editors gave me great insight early on, the author is the narrator but you are a standing reader so the story needs to be experienced in such a way that a reader, and fresh makes these discoveries with you so you can't know too much the beginning so it's a job shuffling around and making sure you as a narrator are not too terribly informed of the beginning and you go through her novel and come out the other end transformed by what you learned because that's what the reader

wants to do and it makes this book that will be written in the way he will are looking, it's a book that will stand up and be read by people thinking about science writing and journalism in this approachable engrossing way you go on a journal journey. >> thank you. >> good stuff. is anything else? all right, let's do it. make it into this and wants to know about the cdc says it can be bugs documented in this country and it's an important thing. do people know many people are bitten, are they unaware of it?

>> great question. yes, most people and they are bit, it's very easy to miss it so look at bug bites and allergic reactions to where there was a fight but that can be easy to miss especially if you don't know if you're living in an area with a lot of kissing bugs, rural areas like south america or central america, you don't know they are super dangerous or sometimes in communities they do know they are dangerous, you should stay away from them but they are part of your day-to-day life. the symptoms are not dramatic so the first two months and you might have a fever, at the most you might have a swollen eyelid where that parasite entered your body but the symptoms tend to resolve in most cases resolve

pretty quickly which is what part of what's so challenging, there are not huge red flags to make someone seek medical attention. the realities for rural areas in south america and central america and mexico is that even if you did want medical access, oftentimes you can't, people are living far from doctors and hospitals. in the u.s. is similar, you're going to come off the insects here you don't tend to get the swollen eyelid for you will have allergic skin reactions so you are usually either camping or you live on a ranch or you have that kind of exposure and you don't think of it as being anything different than any other bookmarks happen to be with. it's not like lyme's disease where your confront distinctive rash or anything like that easy

to miss it, for adults, it is difficult because there are two medications oftentimes successful in eradicating it but once you are out about, medications don't work in the same way if you go into chronic phase. the cdc documented stringent rules for how you want to test positive two out of three tests. there is a scientist, i hate to say parasite is coming but parasite is coming. it can be elusive at times it's possible to get false negatives and false positives so the cdcs got those rules in place. a lot of people who have tested

positive in the u.s., people i interviewed was mixed where i interviewed a woman in california who clearly had a bug bite but was so arbitrary in the sense that she was out with property in california with her spouse and their children and no one except her got a bite and infected, everybody quest has ultimately compared another woman i write about in the book most likely was effective at her mother's house where she would visit sometimes but her mother was not infected herself, we can't say because you have exposure who are definitely going to get, it is collocated. >> harrison diseases are like that. it's not guaranteed you will automatically cap infected most of us do tend to get them, we

don't think about when we travel either. i would always tell people, tell me where you are going on vacation and i will ruin your trip, i will tell you what's going to kill your plan one of those people, i travel there control products but i have gone to the cdc website ahead of time and got my vaccine and travel vaccine and i am loaded up with protective stuff. nature is powerful. we understand that when it comes to comes something like on the pacific coast, we understand when it comes to the ocean, don't turn your back on the question mark we understand about fire and flat but forget it when it comes to a tiny insect. >> absolutely. >> a few more questions, can you talk about other insect diseases, why is malaria better

known? >> malaria is incredibly prevalent, even millions more people affect people in many regions of the world so i would say that as part of the reason it gets more attention. i found this surprising myself, malaria is considered in infective disease. there is no reason for eradication malaria disproportionally infects people around the world. during this pandemic medical ads i read that has date with me from a researcher in south africa, i think it was, she was eking about, she works on malaria and thinking what would it be like the resources with

kobe, if we through this at malaria she had put on hold everything they were doing for malaria to focus on covid. for her it was a painful reminder of the inequities, we don't put more money toward malaria because it not coming around the world and into these countries in the same way it comes to poor countries so if you like we all know malaria but it is neglected in terms of funding. it is still considered a neglected disease. >> this might answer another question from the disease is a parasite, is it possible there are bugs not affected answer is yes, true with mosquitoes as

well. mosquito in portland doesn't pose risk because malaria is a parasitic disease, they have to pick up from one place and deliver it to another place. these things are all so familiar to us and then suddenly there's a bunch of bugs walk around. >> that something that has changed in this past year, we become so nuanced with this language of medicine and science in ways that we were not before. >> to nancy's with two questions. where are these found in front of the treatment? >> kissing bugs partially found in south america, central america mexico and rural areas. they are picky about their temperature, folding box, they

don't like it too hot or too cold, done right. the 60s temperate climate. as i said before all over the california quite a number of species of these that stand out for that reason there are two medications. one approved for use in the united states and the world health organization is considered an essential medicine because researchers don't understand five, he treatment without medication can be really effective and really effective with newborns born with this disease. adults, it is this parasite loading your body. it essential for women thinking about having children because studies have shown it can lower the chance of passing parasite

onto your children but that is fda approved for just a quick a struggle by advocates and patients. >> one more thing for people to remember is familiar for the last year but sometimes they become more prevalent changes in human behavior so in latin america people living closer and closer to wilderness areas so if there was a time where they could go and hang by themselves, we are seeing changes in the ecosystem bring us to closer contact and more opportunities. >> here in the u.s., best

surprising about texas because i've been so fascinated what's going on in texas. texas does not have disease, it is california far and away from most people in this country with the disease but people in texas are seeing more insects and their dogs are contracting, there are canine diseases and it is what you are describing, more of texas is getting developed so i don't know if that is it but that was a feature of what's happening texas that stands out to me. someone i interviewed said my wife opened up her purse and found one in her bag on her iphone of all places. from his perspective, a veterinarian from his perspective it's like this is kissing bugs country and we are showing up turning wrenches into corporate headquarters and housing for people coming to

work at these companies. we are the ones entering their territory so it is interesting for me to think about it from the insects perspective. >> i think it's an incredible not be more timely so i hope you will check out the book and i want to say as we are wrapping up, feel free to get another question or two and but i want to say whenever i see an independent bookstore, i want to urge people to buy a book, i can tell you first hand the only way they stay open is people show up and buy books. the belly was full and tons of people there. i know it's impossible to imagine a moment when it doesn't exist but a bookstore like this,

keep the doors open because everyday people walk in and buy books and that's the only way it works. now more than ever, get something support your book source. >> they have signed copies so there are many reasons to shop, i agree. >> any other questions and comments before we wrap up anything else you want to say? >> i really hope you pick up a copy and thank you for being with us. i am a fan of your work. >> this was great, nice to see your face. >> thank you so much, it was wonderful to host you this evening. thank you for tuning in tonight, please consider purchasing a

copy of the new book, check out our books and we look forward to seeing you soon. thank you again for joining us tonight and for the great talk. have a good night, everyone. thanks. >> a recent episode of joe show podcast from a criminal profiler pat brown and her son discussed race in america and argued back lives matter is ignoring the legacy of doctor martin luther king jr. here's a portion of the program. >> i live in an area and merriment which is majority black community and she started sending me these e-mails saying in your community, you could join this group and of course i was interested because we want

to get involved in something, he would like it to be not like an hour away if you could have five minutes away so i said this is, as all of these groups were named african-american something, business with suitcases for four black girls. there were not just one or two, there were dozens and in my community so i decided i want to sign up for them, this is where i live so i sent over my face on my picture and they said you can't join because we are only for african-americans. it's interesting because -- >> did they know you weren't in africa at the time? >> i think it's funny because we have mobile right now.

>> yeah. >> it was for not being black enough so this can't be happening in this country. we can't have black only groups. so i wrote and said seems like determination to me in violation of the civil rights act of 1964. the robot them inside who will help you find white people groups. it actually set they will have a white people group so i sent also are using i can have a wife only group and that's okay? they said yes. >> i have to test this to see if it's truly acceptable so i made

up white women euros help for people, it is a great thing to do. i don't want a group of white women. all help broke loose. messages through this we are going to say you are discriminatory, your kkk, white supremacist, how could you say these things in this day and age? you know around people made your? is funny because my indian friends were kind of brown by think i know they started the whole thing was amazing. i went on tucker carlson to talk about this and i sent tucker, let everybody know first, that

was not the purpose of. i got an e-mail and i said thank you, we are sick of this division and separations and black graduation, isn't this going back in time? i say yes and that's what started this concern of mine along with everything else i'm seen, this is not where it started when i encountered this but is it getting worse over years and this is my personal experience. we got together and we decided we should bring this to the attention and we have to stop it. >> you've got a phone call or

text, you came on board with the book. >> my mother, it was not a new thing. >> it's interesting that we live in a time where standing up to standing in your belief is stirring the pot. >> the reason i stand out in my last several years of my life, i keep my opinions to myself and you get to a time where you can't hold back anymore, so irritated on social media, just be nice and go along but then again, if you don't stand up say something, we are at a precipice

where they are already taking first steps so i say you know what, time to stop being quiet and stand up and get my opinions out there and hopefully change my mind so that is my goal here. i want to meet other people and say i'm speaking up, i'm not scared, i'm not going to be shut down. regardless, you have to stand up for what you believe in, otherwise you might as well laid out and thought. >> visit booktv.org, find the search box near the top of the page to look for patent dave brown or the title of their book, black and white