historian, a gordon for the president, and former first daughter, susan ford bale. and and two political families talk about the suffragette playbook and women and how they're relevant today. book tv discusses leading authors and nonfiction books. at sunday live, and the vice chair of the vanderbilt former professor joins us for a live discussion talking about critical race theory, 1619 project, immigration and the latest book "book eye for america", in the book "the afghanistan papers" washington post's craig whit lock examines

america's 20-year war in the country. and book tv on c-span2 or visit c-span.org. >> in war-torn improverished countries where there are thriving private schools, ngo's deny they exist, why do they deny it? the existence of low cost high quality schools shatters the myth without government, the poor can't get good education for their children, but they can and they do. this is what we'll explore on this edition of independence conversations. i'm graham walker coming to you from the incident in oakland, california and we're across the bay from san francisco and we try and give you a bit of an independent outlook on the issues of our day. today, it is my privilege to

have with us professor james tooley, who is the vice chancellor of the university of buckingham in the united kingdom. welcome, professor tooley. >> thank you, good to be here. >> it's a pleasure to have you and a pleasure to have you here as a senior with the independent incident in california even though your main work is obviously in england. i should let people know a little about you so they don't mind me boasts on you for a moment. you're from the buckingham and for the americans who don't know the no men nomenclature, you're from the university, formerly education at new castle university. i think it's called new castle upon tine. >> that's the city. >> that's what i thought and universities of oxford,

manchester, university of western cape in south africa and you've been around the world in your teaching positions and more interestingly, around the world on research in education and all sorts of unusual places and you're the author of at least 15 books if i'm not mistaken, if i count the latest book, high caliber low cast publications here at the independent institute and we advise our friends around the world to get a copy of this book by james tooley which we're going to talk about now. now, you have been called at the point when you got to sir anthony frazier, international award and you were called by fran philanthropy digest, indiana jones. >> i should have a hat. >> what was indiana jones

doing? he was going in search of something mythical and something people denied existence of and finding it and doing big stuff with it. and so the relationship for me, of course, was people were saying i was going into developing countries in search of something mythical, which was the low cost private education, and then i was finding it and coming back and telling the world about it. and so, i guess that's what-- i haven't got a fedora, but-- >> maybe it was lost, you know, the arc was lost apparently for generations and said to be mythical, but it was lost and then recovered. >> that's a very interesting dimension of it. because, well, i mean, i discovered, you know, and it's true, i discovered it for the west, if you like. obviously people in these countries knew about it and were there, but i discovered it for us in america and england,

and where i discovered it first was in the slums in india where i, you know, i wandered into the slum with a hunch about what i might find. we can discuss that in a moment why i had that hunch, but i wandered into these slums and found this private school, charging about the equivalent of one $1 a month and now perhaps $10 a month. good gracious. >> $10 a month. >> but this was the thing that had been lost in the earlier book i wrote was called "the beautiful tree", that was named thus because ghandi had described the situation in education before the british got involved in education in india and he said the british came and uncovered the root of

the beautiful tree and it perished. what was he talking about? in his early book i looked at the history and actually there were low cost private schools for the british before they stamped it out. it wasn't good enough. they wanted the proper government schools and they pushed this out. so the whole idea of indiana jones is what you've said is more reasonable. it had been lost in dominance for the west, but i didn't recover it and using it, they were using it en masse and that's the extraordinary they think i relate in part one of this book, really good schools. >> i'm going to come back to some of the particulars of how you found the schools and how they work and so forth, but, you know, i think any reader of the book like myself is going to be struck by the way you began the discussion and the

introduction by talking about malala usefi, the pakistan girl far do near the border and she had been shot almost murdered by pakistan forces. >> yes. >> and she was celebrated and won, what was it a nobel prize. >> she was the first to receive the nobel peace prize. >> remarkable. that's a story in itself, but as you described it, all of the news coverage about malala left out one really important detail about her personal story. what was the detail and why was it omitted? >> so the detail, not surprisingly, fits in exactly with our topic, so malala by all the media at the time and the teacher unions, education

international, the unesco and the rest, they described malala as on her way to the school where her father was the head master and we've got this picture, yeah, the father head master, normal sort of government public school and she's on her way and gets shot there. her father was not the head master of the school. her father was the entrepreneur who created the school. it was in fact a low cost private school, one of 400 local private schools in the valley. her father was also either president or vice-president of an association of low cast private schools in the valley. so, in fact, it's very different from how it's described. so she is described and she continues this theme that she's there promoting public education, promoting public education particularly for girls in places for pakistan very close to what might be getting more frightening, the

afghan border now. she's not. she's someone who went to local private school and it's there in her autobiography and you read it carefully, and it's clear that the father created this local private school and in her autobiography written with christina lamb, why the schools were so bad, just like in the schools when i first went into india and different african countries, parents say their children are abandoned, and the teachers give chores to the children. the teachers do not teach the children unless they can avoid it. the teacher have a system so they don't have to come into school very often and she described that in her book is exactly what i found elsewhere in the world. so he malala should be lifted from this side of the argument and i'm pleased that i've --.

>> her story is quite remarkable. i suppose that from the point of view, maybe, of standard education policy experts or what i might call educrats, they might say schools are schools are schools. schools are schools after all and they're education and we like public schools, there's not much different. >> and except they wouldn't say that and previously you asked why is there this. >> they wouldn't say what i just said. >> no, because they said-- so then these local private schools, which in the book we talk about, they're relevant to america and england by extension. these-- they're what you call the educrats as you politely call them. they would say the low cost

private schools are abberation. when i first did this book and everyone denied their existence and they denied their existence wholesale and now people accept their existence, but deny their implication, their relevance. they say they're an aberration we can accept. your introduction remarks were about war torn places. we can accept them as temporary expediency in war torn places and temporary, this, the education-- the educrats, they tend to emerge and we condition stop them from emerging. as soon as the country is a proper country and doing the right thing then it must create a department of education like a proper country does, like the u.s. does, and england does. >> and standardizing the

hiring. >> unionized teachers and be a proper place actually what it's reminiscent of, of the british when they went to india and that low cost schools are not good enough. we want standardized education with proper curriculum and assessment, the problem is it doesn't work. >> you of course have just aused the so-called mainstream educational advocates of a form of colonialism by comparing them to how the british went into india. i did and was that accidental? no, i don't think it was accidental. that's relevant here because what it's saying, yes, there's relevance. it was deliberate because what it's saying is that people from the aid agencies, from the international agencies, from usaid or how it's called in your country dfid, the department of development.

>> and ox fam and other organizations, they say we know how education should be done. in america or england, and we go into the slums and from the book, slums of nigeria, slums of india, slums of sierra leone, south sudan and so on on talk about all of these lays -- places, when they go there, parents prefer a different way of doing this. parents prefer the low cost private schools, they're accountable to them and they don't have teachers that don't strike and don't show up. and the teachers work hard and the children are not abandoned and i see that and i say, look, this is amazing. look what parents are doing for themselves. look at this amazing educational self-help going on in african countries in india and so on and i saw wow, let's go with parental choice here and see, yes, see if we can

help them improve. we're not saying we haven't got any abilities outside. but what other people do look what parents are doing, it's wrong. it's not public education, it's not proper education, so therefore, let's get rid of the schools, let's impose a property public sector and these parents, well, sometimes they call them rude names like ignoramuses. and sometimes more polite, look, parents, that's wrong what you're doing, come to the public and there you'll get a proper education. >> you know it's fascinating by the attitudes of international ngo activists, many of them are nongovernmental themselves however, in many of their aid and development projects, including educational projects, their mindset will be we'll use our private efforts and maybe philanthropic funds from the west and start something that's nongovernmental, but the point is to get it going and then get

the governments of these countries to take them over and leverage them to scale. because their whole-- some are very nongovernmental why they're called ngo, about seeding projects which can be leveraged into governmental control. whereas, your view is that the governmental control can kill the very things trying to be seeded. >> and so it's not my view, just plucked out of the air. that's what you found. >> it's evidence-based and in fact, i haven't always been on this side of the argument when i was a young man, i was a school teacher in zimbabwe because i want today help build that marxist lenin's regime of darby and using the american terminology, public education is what i was in favor of. because in the long courses that i've seen, that doesn't work in most countries in the world and i've seen evidence

and read other people's evidence that shows it doesn't work so i've shifted across to this side. >> that's fascinating. >>, but the known government entities, they get quite a lot of money. >> they're not quite as innocent as they're saying and trying to be why would they say that? perhaps that's the only way you can get things scaleable, if you get the resources of governments behind. let's be charitable about this. and what my work and other people working in this area has shown, is that that's not the only way you can get sustainability and to scale. the extraordinary thing, one of the first chapters in the book, this u bbick-- ubiquity and later states, over 70% of children are in

private schools. there are probably 14,000 low cost private schools in one state, in nigeria alone. in india-- >> let me contextualize, nigeria is the most populous country in africa. >> yeah, it's heavily populated, i'm sorry i'm interrupting you, that he is where the research is being done. research hasn't been done in many other states, but i've visited to the dangerous north and east of these places where one is offered police escorts and has to shake them off if you want to go into places. >> oh, wow. >> the police tasing you. but you go into these places and i got a sense they're very similar to legos. >> and 78% of the children private-- and sticking with african, the research has been done in uganda and 80% of poor kids are

in low cost private schools and the capital of ghana, 75%, something like that. in india there's rural education and a wonderful report, asa, annual state of educational report and in rural india alone 30% are in private school. >> good gracious. >> in europe 70, 80% again and the estimate i come up with people why they accept this, there are 450,000 low cost private schools in india alone, nearly half a million private schools in india alone. so the point we're making is, you don't have to have government sustainability and scaleability. >> scaleability, that's a huge, huge scale. >> that's a huge scale and that's the mind blowing thing about this, totally without any aid, without any government

subsidy, nothing, nothing from the governments, nothing from the international agency. people like me get involved in a little way, tiny little way, but it carries on because the entrepreneurs providing something that parents want and it's better than the government alternative. >> chapter 7 of the book, you mentioned that you're sitting in the hills mall in hydrabad, india and noticed a young lady who was reading about albert einstein and you got talking to her and turns out from what you say here that she had found nothing interesting in science in her schools, she was in government schools in india, but then she began to read a little bit on her own about einstein and other matters and she discovered the mystery and fascination of it and you said accord to go what she told you, there was nothing remotely fascinating or mysterious about the way anything was taught in science in my government

school, instead all with subordinated into the end of school examinations. >> this girl's unger for learning was quenched-- or killed rather by the government schools and reawakened. >> in part two of the book. part one is what we have been talking about already, this revolution, it's an incredible revolution, a movement of parents going to low cost private schools across most of the world, sub saharan africa, asia and then in part two, i'm shifting, trying to get to america and pointing out some of the issues that arise in schools there which we have in come -- common, i think, with britain and america and one of the thing-- one has to be careful here because i'm not so evidence-based here, but seems

to be that the government-controlled curriculum, government-controlled assessment in many of these countries i'm looking at including england. america, it might be slightly more difficult ground there, but certainly in england, certainly in india, as you describe there, what i call the gate keepers of education and the people with compulsory schooling is part of that. kids are forced to go to school beyond when they're fascinated and the curriculum is not fascinating and it, you know, what the word you ooh us -- used was right. it kills, it deadens, the unbearable burden. >> yeah, when i read that chapter title i thought wow, what a strange title, the unbearable burden of learning. learning should be a joy, but it's made a burden. >> yeah, and so what is that? and part of the book, i try and

say, could this be before government takes control of something that it has no business controlling? and it maybe controls for reasons that are anti-education, you know. we go into it a bit in the book and i'm not so strong here, they say i'm being a bit speculative here, but could it be that the governments are controlling curriculum and assessment and compulsory schooling in order for there to be social control, in order for there to be control of our minds in a way that -- in a way that's not educational, it's anti-educational? and i quote in the beginning of the book and i-- a wonderful quote from on liberty from where he says, a general state education. let me find the quote. general public education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly alike one

another as efficient and successful, it's despotism over the minds. >> he's prophetic. >> he is. and i'm trying to explore that in part two of the book and pointing out how if these things were left to the market, left to the spontaneous order, if they were left to, you know, emancipated education, i'll use that term, educational freedom, and maybe get something completely different and maybe the girl in the book stop if hydrabad would not have to drop out of schooling in order to get, find that love of learning again, but that love of learning could be there in market-driven emancipated spontaneous education, in a way it probably was when government got involved and then government distorts, ruins, ruins. >> right, it's a shame. one thing i'm sure that people are wondering as they listen to us talk today is okay, so you

visited these places, discovered all of these schools and the magnitude is immense around the world. so how do they get started? and what kind of business models do they have to make it sustainable and seasonal. what's the germnation of these schools? >> the first time i found a local private school is in the slums of hydrabad, it's a largely muslim city in india, at least the poor areas are and muslim ruler at the time of independence. when i first found it, clearly the first school, and the person running the school was a muslim and the next one was muslim and i thought it was a charitable thing in islam, islam has a charitytable side that gives to the poor. and they must be funded

charitably and philanthropically and you think of the business model, it's simple. parents pay their fees and there may be some commission on selling textbooks or school uniforms, but parents pay their fees and those fees cover all the teachers salaries and the school building is rental. the rental of the building, all the costs and leave a little surplus for the entrepreneur who then supports his or her family in that way and so that's really important. a lot of our listeners might, viewers might be thinking, okay, this is describing something wonderfully philanthropic, it's not. >> that's what makes it scale is because millions of people can actually make a go of it. >> yes, and so you ask, who is doing this? >> well, so there must have

been, you know, there must have been a first entrepreneur somewhere because i've seen the exact phenomenon in india, kenya, uganda and sierra leone and liberia. and know about each other. >> right. >> there must have been a spontaneous eruption of this in countries and that alone is fascinating. >> you're a scientist and scientists look for patterns of order and they deduce from those patterns. >> yeah, yeah, so these in the most place, but there must be some people doing the first, one or two people and i saw sort of probably three models emerging and these are ideal types and let's go through them. typically when a mother created a nursery because she's got three or four kids herself, she sees that she's quite good with kids and other mothers wanted to go out into the market and work or whatever and she says

bring your kids here i'll charge a little bit and create ago. when they have gone through kindergarten and what you call grade one, i think, and class one, and the mothers say to her, look, the kids are happy with you, surely grade one can't be that difficult from kindergarten and we interest us you with them. so the school is grown from the bottom up and slowly more sophisticated, but goes up to class nine, class 10, class 12, from a mother starting a nursery and kindergarten. the alternative is sometimes it starts from the top down. so, someone will create a school that's as creator-- what we call in england, a cramming class. that would be getting you ready for the state exam at class 10, class 12, grade 10 or grade 12. and then the kids say to their-- the teachers who come in there, the tutor, look, we learned

more from you, can't we just come to you full-time and abandon the school and eventually it goes down, you know. >> right. >> entrepreneur starts going down and that's quite common and the third form is also quite common and that is an entrepreneur, or a businessman or woman, who's seen that phenomenon. you can see this happening so what i see, i can open this school myself. why do i open the school and so they do and so they recognize the school is now potential business, you know. so that's a conscious business start-up is model three? >> yeah, exactly. >> and the other two are sort of organic growth from the bottom up. >> and actually, yeah. but that said, i make it sound easy and the chapter from the book is in there quite early on chapter six, chapter seven, i think, chapter five where i just put out the set for an

entrepreneur. i set up some schools now myself in ghana, in nigeria, in india, when i say myself, sorry, that's too arrogant, in those countries so i was a co, a co-author of those, and it's really difficult. and i take my hat off, my imagery fedora, that we talked about, to those, even though they know the models that work all the steps they have to go through, and uncertainties of climate, flooding storms, winds blowing the roofer of your school off, sometimes it's the

vagarees, and your schools, sometimes it's not right-- >> what about approvals from governments? >> i was going to say that. >> let's go there. >> the approvals of governments and too often in the places too often the approvals mean the inspector calls and asks for a bribe or seeks a bribe to get approved because the regulations often very expensive and can't be reached, about the size of your playground, for example, many countries say your playgrounds have to be here. some say it's an acre. try finding an acre in the slums. the inspector, typically, often, often, the inspector comes and demands a bribe and leaves you alone, so the bribes become part of the business expense. >> part of the business expense, yeah, and they're sort of taken for granted and one mustn't overdo it. let's not do that either.

later in the book i describe how i open-- i don't describe it, i've just about started. i've actually done more since then. i started in a local private school in the north of gunned based on some model in the penultimate chapter of the book and it took us 465 days to get approved in england. 465 days. >> so you learned from people in india and africa, you came back to the north of england and tried to do the same thing and you ultimately succeeded? or how hard was it? >> it was incredibly hard, but absolutely, a very early piece i wrote, it was based on-- if japan can, why can't we? it was about the japan motor industry and american must copy japan. this was ages ago and i wrote a piece if india can, why can't we? if india, nigeria outside of state breaking free from state

control of education in many ways not always, why can't we do it in england? and i am-- you know, again with business partners up north in england and the city of durham near-- durham is a tough city as i recall now, isn't it? >> no, so durham is a mixture. so county durham is where the count surrounding durham is old mining country and all the mines have closed. there's a lot of unemployment. >> that's what i thought. >> and durham is a mixture. durham has actually got a very good university, the third oldest university in england, very beautiful buildings and so on. and it's a mixture, so, there are very-- the northeast of england is generally the most depressed part of england, new castle where i looked before. but there are, obviously, salubrious parts, too. we've start add school there

and we've for 150,000 pounds, that's little if you want to start school. most people think you need millions. it's $200,000. for $200,000, you can start a school that can break even, so we've broken even and it's small, only 60 kids. >> how many months, how many years has it been open? >> two and a half years. >> so broke even at two and a half years. >> let's say three years conceptual, with the regulations and getting the regulations, but in england we have a body, the regulatory body for all schools, private as well as public. we have passed the oxford inspection with flying colors, we all that offstead good that's the mark of approval we've got the best for a new school and now passed so we can become a junior high school, secondary school.

and we have shown that parents want to come there so we can break even and prove the business model works and proven that this is three-fifths per capita up there and about an if inventory-- about a fifth the school. >> fifth the price, that's the school we wanted for our girls and we couldn't find one. >> and even so, and a professor at durham university when i talked about it he said exactly the same thing, don't tell anyone. [laughter] >> had this school been around with my kids we would have used you. and so what about the united states? can this kind of thing work here? >> it's part one is all of this stuff about the revolution, the movement of low cost school.

and the further problems that we could solve including one of making, relieving the unbearable burden of learning in schools, and part says in america, in america you have vouchers, you have charter schools, but and that's, you know, typically people on our wavelength, if i can say that, would probably say, what tooley is talking about is vouchers and charters schools. >> i didn't hear anything about gft government funding and both of those models involve gft moneyments and i call it the government takes our money away and it kind of gives some of it back, but what i point out in the book is, in england, in many countries, we hear about vouchers in america and that's a mass movement, how exciting and i look at the figures from, you know, reputable foundations and say it's less than half of

1% of america's kids have a voucher in america. less than half of 1%. that's not a movement. that's not a movement. maybe it could grow bigger, but i would say it looks to grow to the maximum of 2, 3% of kids. what friedman had in mind as a universal voucher system, a universal voucher system. >> right. >> and that's nowhere near. i start saying could we have the private school model in america? i look at the history, don't i, the history there in america, but most importantly in england and friedman changed his minds about vouchers because he read the work of eg west looking at the history of school education in england where in today's language, my language, there were low cost private schools before the state got involved 150 years ago and the state stamped them out and maybe we can reclaim, we can revisit

that and why not in america? i think i say the first time will the first entrepreneur in america stand up. >> and i wonder whether the charter school development in the united states has almost stymied the emergence of what you're talking about? >> yes, i think it has and look, and the mean i say stymied, the parents who care about these things, because read about charter schools, all of their energy gets channeled into this channel where they have to organize themselves in relation to the local authorities, you have to qualify for the monies, they have to meet the requirements. they're not operating outside the system. they're operating as kind of supplicants of the system. >> i've seen some wonderful charter schools and you know, i can't stress that enough and doing work in america, really in charter schools. so that's not--

that's not as it were, down the sector, but i think you're right. if you are a poor parent or a parent dissatisfied with public education you know that the alternative is charter schools and you go after the charter schools and again, there are huge waiting lists. right. >> masses of parents waiting for a charter school place to come, to appear and then they feel relieved they can send their children there. and there's an alternatives, the parents have to pay fees, i think i developed a model $3,000 a year and-- ments even 3,000 would be a huge improvement on any normal private school alternative in the united states. >> yes, it would be, but i reckon you can go lower than that once you get competition in the sector and particularly, what we we be learning over the last year that actually you can do this.

you can do stuff on-line, you can do stuff. >> right. and that's what we've been learning, haven't we? and in a sense, now, i don't know how much this is based on, but i think there might be some empirical wisdom to show that public schools have let parents down in a way that private school-- again from anecdotal. >> you mean during the pandemic. >> during the lockdown and perhaps are now, it could have come out a year or so ago, but started or even longer again. maybe it's timely because there is a sense now that parents-- maybe it's this, in nigeria and india, parents are absolutely disgusted with the public schools, the government schools. they see them as, you know, their children are abandoned there. >> and they've wrestled with this for a long time. >> for a long time. let's say in england we can't

say that the parents are disgusted with the government schools. they are not as good as they were. and meet the requirements, but after the lockdown situation maybe parents are, we'll say, increasingly frustrated with what they're doing, what the government schools and public schools are doing and recognize there could be an alternative. >> and millions of parents have been forced to do something to try and help their children learn during these lockdowns and discovering there are things that can be done. >> yes, and that's the home schooling movement. interestingly, in the environment they were telling us about, we've got a small number of families who were home schoolers with you this is before lockdown, but they were reluctant home schoolers, they can't want to send kids in the local state schools, government schools, they couldn't afford the private schools and the only alternative was actually home schooling and we came along and offered a new price point that actually was just about affordable based on it

and they didn't want to do home schooling, they wanted someone to take most of that burden and they didn't feel capable, but they could be involved and they could be-- and still be in locals, and still be in-- the school would still be local. it would be sufficient cants to them, not them sufficants to-- >> and that's what payment does, it creates a relationship of accountability. if the payment is made to the government, the accountability is to the government. if the payment is to the parent, then it's accountability of the parents. >> and i told you earlier in the part one. book described some of this sort of, you know, i did start with people in ghana and people in west africa and i started so many chains of schools, and forgive me for this, i was

there as the outsider, visiting white man and you can sometimes feel and we had parents meeting. and perhaps there was a sense the parents would say, thank you for creating this school for anything better than anything around. not a bit of it. parents came along and said, you said there would be a lab and why are-- why aren't there more or heaven forbid a teacher was ab september last friday, that's not good enough. or the playground is uneven, are you going to strengthen this? parents love being in control and i love this, of course, i'm not complaining about it. >> of course. >>, but it was a surprise. parents love being in control, want to be in control off their children's education, they should be in control. >> exactly. >> and private education brings back control and gives them autonomy. not control of everyday little bits of the curriculum. not control of everyday minutes

in the day, but control of the big picture. >> right. >> and this is not satisfying them in terms of big picture, they want out. they will get out. >> we're going to draw it to a close here in just a minute, but i'll zoom back out to a broader level here. you sound throughout your travels in the global south amongst the schools that you shifted, families and so fourth, found a remarkable distrust of governments and government education wherever you went. more distrust as you've just said a moment ago, than is typically the case in the u.s. or the u.k. and this might seem paradoxical to some people, after all, isn't government power supposed to be the vehicle of how poor people are delivered from their poverty and given their ticket to education? i thought government was the savior of the poor, but in the poorest countries, government seems to be held in low regard on education. how is that? >> yeah, i mean, this is -- you

know, it's a good summary question in a way because what-- so, first of all, that's not my view, it's the view of parents, you know, and it's not just true of education either, it's true in many areas how it's true, road construction or whatever. in many of these countries i've been working in, so much corruption and so many problems of government inefficiencies, and they just don't deliver what parents want. that's the key thing. and more than that, sometimes government-- well, i see one of the first school entrepreneurs said this in india, sometimes government is the obstacle of the people and sometimes government, it creates regulations and it creates hurdles you have to climb and jump over. it creates corruption and bureaucracy. sometimes in some of these war torn countries i've been visiting, it actually

deliberately tries to create division, tries to make one group dominant over another and advice versa, that's deliberately that the governors doing that in these countries and it's not surprising then, whether it's because of bureaucracy and corruption, inefficiency or even in divide and rule tactic, for all of those reasons, people don't trust governments and when you're a local entrepreneur in your local community creates school, maybe someone you've known or quickly get to know them or quickly in your communities where the school created, you do trust that person. you do trust them and describing as one school being created, let's not forget that this is a scaleable, sustainable phenomenon. >> truly scaleable, right. you're a person who has documented and analyzed mass scale collaboration among all sorts of extraordinary people around the world for the love

of their children, keep up the good work and thank you for helping the rest of us get a taste of it through the books. i encourage those in the u.s. and really around the world to get a copy of this book. it's available, of course wherever you get your book and the website, we're the publisher of the book and also very proud to have professor james tooley as a senior fellow. professor tooley, we wish you all the best for the book and hope for a wide reading and wide influence and wish you the best in your work, directing the work of the university of buckingham. thank you very much, thank you. >> glad to see you and join us again. take care, everybody. and thank you for joining us here on independent conversations. join us next time. bye-bye. ♪♪ theodore gilmore bilbao was an

american politician who twice served as governor of mississippi 1916 for four years and then 1928-1932, later elect add u.s. senator in 1935, reelected twice more, but died early in his third term in 1947. he was 69. he was a democrat an outspoken white supremacist and a strong supporter of fdr's progressive new deal. we have dr. chester bo morgan a retired professor of history of southern mississippi to give background on theodore bilbao and politics in the fdr era. the author of "redneck liberal", theodore bilbao and new deal. >> chester morgan on this edition, and get it on c-span podcast or