they begin to retreat from that as though it was the right of the supreme court to say this wasn't really in the constitution, really was intended, he stood up strongly against that. >> peter canellos sunday night at 8 p.m. eastern on c-span's q&a. you can listen to q&a at all of our podcast on our new c-span now app. >> next, college athletes and sports advocates testified that student rights regarding profits made all their images and likenesses. during a house energy and commerce subcommittee hearing, witnesses spoke about the need for national standardized laws, student health care, and funding for nonrevenue generating college sports. this is three hours.

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> madame ranking member, would you join us?

[inaudible conversations] >> to give the digital team some notice i'm going to count, down from five to order. five, four, three, two, one. the subcommittee on commerce, on consumer protection and commerce will now come to order. be holding a hearing entitled "a level playing field: college athletes' rights to their name, image, and likeness" ." due to the covid-19 public health emergency, members can

participate today in the hearing either in person or remotely via online video, video conferencing. members who are not vaccinated and participating in person must wear a mask and be socially distant. such members may remove their masks when they are under recognition and speaking from a microphone. staff and press who are not vaccinated and present in the committee room must wear a mask at all times and be socially distant. four members participating remotely, your microphone will be set unmute for the purpose of eliminating inadvertent

background noise. members participating remotely will need to unmute your microphone each time you wish to speak. please note that once your unmuted, your microphone -- once you have unmuted your microphon microphone, ne, anything that is said in web ask will be heard over the loudspeaker in the and subject to be heard by the -- okay. by the live stream. since members are participating from different locations, at today's hearing all recognition of members such as for questions

will be in the order of seniority on the subcommittee, subcommittee seniority. documents for the record can be sent to the e-mail address that was provided to your staff. entd into the record at the conclusion of the hearing. at this point, the chair now recognizes herself for five-minutes. college sports bring joy to americans in every state, in every congressional district, and can provide life-changing opportunities and friendships for college athletes. i know our colleagues, for example, congresswoman trahan

and others of you who participated in college athletics have personally experienced this. college sports have also created enormous wealth to the tune of $14.4 billion per year for college and universities. but unfortunately, that wealth has not been equitably distributed for decades and led to systemic exploitation of athletes in service of the amateurism mythology. this exploitation has denied those who most are responsible for the creation of this wealth. that would be the players -- from their fair share of the pie. if that were not bad enough, we have seen athletes saddled with

contracts our subcommittee would clearly identify as unfair. such contracts have in the past included restrictions on transferring to another school and loss of scholarships in the case of injury, which for too many mean halting their education entirely. in 2015, northwestern football players, who i have the privilege of representing in my district, actually began a union drive. and i was proud to stand with those courageous athletes, fighting for their rights. regrettably, northwestern employed busing tactics in the effort failed.

since then, we have recognized, i would say finally, pervasive, systemic inequities in the ways the ncaa manages funds and treats male versus female athletes. in august, an independent investigation concluded what many already knew, that the ncaa has not lived up to the standard commitment to "diversity, inclusion, and gender equality among its student athletes." for years, congress was told by the ncaa and others to let them govern themselves. however, in the wake of the proliferation of name-image likeness laws in states around the country, not to mention also

supreme court cases, today they are coming asking us to intervene. and the energy and commerce committee is where a lot of these debates will take place, and we are ready to have those debates on unfair contracting, health and safety, name-image likeness, recruiting practices, and labor rights. but i can assure you that we will only move forward in a way that puts players first. that said, i look forward to engaging with ranking member bill lerach, members on both

side of the aisle in our subcommittee, and all the stakeholders as we correct past injustices and move forward in an equitable way that does put players first. i want to thank our witnesses for attending today. and with that, i yield back my time. and now, the chair, i am honored to recognize mr. bill arauca, the ranking member on the committee of consumer protection and commerce for five minutes for his opening statement. >> thank you so very much. i appreciate it. good morning, everyone, and welcome to the subcommittee hearing. thank you, madam chair, for holding this hearing, and thank you to our witnesses for your testimony on this very important matter. i am eager to hear each of your

perspectives. i also want to thank congressman anthony gonzalez for his tireless bipartisan effort to give student athletes the opportunity to receive compensation for their name, image, and likeness, or nil. it is not often a florida gator and an ohio state buckeye can come together in the name of amateur sports. but i am glad to be working with him on this and we are very hopeful we can get bipartisan legislation to the end zone in this congress. of course, we have other sports besides football that we are going to discuss. madam chair, i would also like to ask unanimous consent for the statement from anthony gonzalez be entered into the record. i have that right here, madam chair. >> without objection. >> thank you. to that end, i think we need to have realistic expectations for

what our committee should focus on to allow collegiate athletes the opportunity to capitalize on their nil. it is the only way we can get this done for students, and we all agree, madam chair, on the nil. i have it in my statement but it is so very necessary that we have preemptive legislation air. currently, 30 states across the country have their own laws allowing sue stash student athletes to --student athletes to profit on their nil. this has caused confusion and crippled fair competition. we are currently seeing this same scenario play out with consumer privacy laws, so i am hopeful this hearing highlights the need for congress to establish a national preemptive framework for nil and create a true level playing field for all

students at educational institutes across the nation. if congress fails to enact the gestation preventing a patchwork of state laws, we will likely see states competing with one another to create the best incentives for students to come to their schools. and you know that is going to happen. again, while i know young people want to come to the great state of florida, preferably the university of florida, we must be fair to the hundreds of other universities and colleges across the country that may be a better fit for student athletes. we have a lot of members on both sides of the aisle representing different schools and different conferences. to be clear, what i am suggesting is to do right by collegiate athletes themselves. i recently received a letter from 15 collegiate athletes from the acc that emphasizes this point. i want to quote these students,

if that is ok, madam chair. "it is clear we need a federal baseline," is what they say, "that three levels the playing field. " the students say the most important way to protect nil is to protect all students, especially those outside of the big revenue-generating sports. "congress would do a disservice to student-athletes, sports culture, and american society in general to pass a bill that diminishes educational opportunities, that leaves schools no choice but to reduce scholarships, cut programs due to budget reallocation." i could not agree more. i ask unanimous consent that i enter this particular letter from the acc. >> without objection. >> thank you very much.

i think these students know what they want. i really do, madam chair. i will not read the names of the schools because i do not have time, but these are very credible universities who represent these. if we go far outside the bounds of our committee's jurisdiction, i fear we will end up hurting the college athletes and their chances of succeeding on and off the field. i also want to point out that these students did not ask for health care mandates or guaranteed scholarships or for private rights of action. the risk of such factors will result in cutting the very sports programs we are working to protect. after all, there is a difference between being a representative of a school and being a full-time employee of a school. i agree wholeheartedly with these students. college students should be able

to compete and work hard to receive nil benefits, and that is what our committee should focus on. and i really look forward to hearing the witnesses and getting more input. thank you very much, madam chair, for giving me the opportunity. i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. i now recognize the chairman of the full committee for five minutes for his opening statement. >> thank you, madame chairwoman. the dedication of student athletes have helped make college sports one of the most lucrative brands in the country. these athletes deserve a system that protects their interest and well-being. for years and despite criticism and court challenges, the ncaa, athletic wear companies, and others have earned massive revenues at the same time the college athletes have been stuck in a strict amateur status that prohibited them from earning compensation.

it was not until the supreme court's decision the summer finding the ncaa in violation of antitrust laws that they finally felt enough pressure to begin making changes to this unfair system. for far too long, collegiate athletes missed out on opportunities other students have been able to take advantage of. the roles prevented swimmers, tennis players, and golfers from using their names and pictures to advertise lessons in their sports to make extra money. after the rule change, young athletes are already capitalizing on many of the opportunities that were previously not available to them. while this rule change is a step in the right direction, collegiate athletes continue to face additional hurdles other students do not. fewer than 2% of collegiate athletes reaching the pros in their sports, education is vital. athletes dedicate more than 40 hours per week to practice and other training, leaving little time for study. collegiate athletes have a graduation rate 18% lower than

non-athletes and more startlingly for black athletes, it is between 20% in 30% lower than their peers. today's hearing is focused on name, image, and likeness rights, but we cannot ignore other issues that face college athletes, such as gender equity, short and long-term safety and health care. yesterday, the board ruled that athletes must be treated as employees, giving them protections. thank you for having this hearing and i look forward to hearing the testimony of all the witnesses and the unique perspective you all provide. i would like to yield the remainder of my time to congresswoman trahan. >> i am grateful to you for calling this important hearing. as a former division i volleyball player, this issue hits home. like many former college athletes, i would not be where i am today without that scholarship. my family did not have a lot of money. my dad was an iron union

worker. they gave me every opportunity to succeed there was no way we could have afforded that tuition. i am the first person in my family to graduate from college and i am grateful for the opportunity and the doors that were opened to me after graduation. however, it is through that experience that i became familiar with how the ncaa conferences and colleges used amateurism to build a multibillion dollar industry on the backs of dedicated, talented, and often poor college athletes. when i was in school, i could not coach summer camp for young girls in my hometown because it would have jeopardized my image and status. that was wrong then and it has been wrong for every athlete after me who was forced to navigate complex rules designed to keep us amateurs while coaches and executives pocketed millions. the association's recent nil policy change is long overdue,

and i believe yesterday's memorandum on college athletes employment rights is as well. for the purposes of today's hearing, it is clear years of reluctance means athletes are now operating in a patchwork of state laws governing their rights. any federal action we take needs to deliver for the people who have always been what matters the most in college sports, and that is the athletes. that means guaranteeing the maximum freedom to be compensated for the use of their name, image, and likeness in the way they choose, whether it is teaching the next generation of athletes, entering a group licensing agreements, or something else. i look forward to continuing our work to achieve that goal. thank you. i yield back. >> i yield back as well, madam chair. >> the gentleman yields back. the chair now recognizes ms. rogers, the ranking member of the committee, for five minutes for her opening statement.

>> thank you, madam chair. thank you for bringing us all together today on this important subject. i appreciated congressman anthony gonzalez's -- what's going on, buddy? [laughter] it was an important reminder that we need to do this in a bipartisan fashion. i know today's hearing is not on a specific legislative effort but i appreciate the legislative commitment that congressman gonzales has made, as well as the efforts of our subcommittee chair. the supreme court has been clear on its rulings. they have made clear on the fact

that the ncaa, as well as other schools in their respective conferences, were overly restrictive on the abilities of their athletes to see compensation for their name, image, and likeness. we should now work to a national standard so the rules are clear for all parties involved. there is a lot of consensus on how these athletes may seek the rewards for their commitments to excellence. kami is testifying today. she is a student at washington state university, captain of the golf team, and an app developer, and her ability to compete would be in jeopardy if strict rules were in place. she and other young people need a clear set of rules and understandable guidelines. this will ensure that her entrepreneurial spirit is rewarded and her passion to

market the app she developed is not hindered by a lack of uniform rules as she works to lead the cougars to a successful golf season. i know there are many commendable topics that may not deal directly with nil per se. but considering the pressure placed on these young athletes, it is important that we consider their ability to seek counseling. we have seen where students can be taken advantage of and there are extraordinary pressures they are under in this super connected world. however, an overly prescriptive solution can have a detrimental effect on smaller athletes. smaller schools with fewer resources and of those not generating revenue. i could see small schools dropping programs altogether,

which means many scholarships would disappear. every one of us takes great pride in the universities and colleges in our home state. our positions have provided us the opportunity of getting to know these athletes, and i am sure that brings immense pride to all of you, as it does me. let's not take that pride lightly as we consider solutions to give clear standards to colleges and universities. we should give these amateur athletes every chance to succeed in life and in sports, to help them win the future. i urge the committee did not get riddled with issues that have stalled other efforts that we have worked on, like privacy. again, thank you for the witnesses for appearing before us today. i am very much looking forward to this discussion and how we take the next step in legislating a set of rules that works for everyone. i yield back.

>> the gentlelady yields back. the chair would like to remind members that pursuant to committee rules, all members' written opening statements shall be made part of the record. i now would like to introduce our witnesses for the first panel -- for the panel. cameron march, the college apple heat in -- athlete in women's golf at washington state university. dr. mark emmert, president of the national college athletic association.

the executive director of the national college players association. and dr. linda livingston, who is president of baylor university. and -- one more. and jackie mcwilliams, the commissioner of the central -- what is that? intercollegiate athletic association. at this time, the chair will recognize each witness for five minutes to provide their opening statement. before i do, i want to make sure i can explain the lighting system in front of our witnesses . it is a series of lights. the lights will initially be green. the light will turn yellow when you have one minute remaining.

please begin to wrap up at that point. and the light will turn red when your time is up. and for those -- [inaudible] you should be able to see the clock for those who are remotely presenting. i want to thank you, dr. -- nope, i'm wrong. let me begin with miss march. you are now recognized for five minutes. >> good morning and thank you. my name is cammy march. i am a senior at washington state university, where i hope

to complete my bachelors degree in 2022. thank you for the opportunity to represent my fellow student athletes before the house, energy, and commerce committee today regarding the ability of student athletes to utilize my name, image, and likeness. this designation of student athlete is presented to prospective students as something that is of benefit to them, an opportunity to pursue both of their academic and athletic ambitions. through my process of developing my apt, i have found that because of the ncaa galatians, this title acts as a hindrance to students' aspirations that do not for clearly. i found myself at a disadvantage to nonathletes on campus who had similar entrepreneurial pursuits, because they were allowed to exist outside the

context of what they contribute to the school. i understand that this is a nuanced conversation and there might be a concern for how the loosening of these regulations could cause corruption, dishonesty, and an unfair advantage for colleges to offer more immediate incentives than others. however, i urge those on the committee to view it as a jumping off point toward a larger goal of protecting and fostering them. in tandem with the financial policies that are implemented, it is important to discuss to support all athletes within whatever system exists. in much of the discourse i have heard about the changing landscape of the name, image, and likeness, the questions seem to be centered around football players, best ballplayers, and mostly men. the concern here is that the lesser sports are getting lost in the conversation by extension

and so are the play ers. our ambitions outside of the sport are just as relevant as our counterparts. i know this too well as a female athlete of color, currently playing women's golf, a sport that is not the most lucrative or visible. it would be wishful thinking to believe anyone like me could be on an equal financial playing field as a star quarterback. that is why it is important to view the evolution of this conversation on a parallel path with the supplement tree support and development of student athletes. one of the only ways someone like me can equal the playing field is by marketing myself, building the uniqueness of my circumstances as a female golfer of color to a markable brand. i also think that the student portion of a student athletes identity should be better

catered to, with more of an emphasis on business, financial, and economic literacy so they are better prepared to make decisions and advocate on their own behalf. washington state has been so helpful in this area, providing resources in a student athlete of elements, personal branding, financial literacy, and offering an entrepreneur course catering to name, image, and likeness. it is something that is important to be required on a universal level so every athlete regardless of circumstances can receive the support they need. in closing, i share my story today in the hopes that you will appreciate that the opportunities afforded to student athletes with the use of our name, image, and likeness impacts all student athletes, whether we are entrepreneurs creating apps or the starting quarterback. having a standard that will support all student athletes is important and i hope that today i can provide a unique perspective as i experienced the new nil opportunities.

thank you for the opportunity to share my story. >> thank you, miss march. dr. emmert, you are recognized now for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. before i begin my formal remarks, i do have to comment that all my attention is usually focused on younger and perhaps slightly more athletic athletes than those who took the field last night. i want to thank you on a successful game last night. it was reported to me there were no ambulance calls or emergencies. it actually was a very exciting game. a lot of scoring, a lot of offense. defense could use some work, but it was terrific. i think the most important point is that in a moment of high tension in congress and in the nation, in order to relax for a

moment and enjoy each other, you took to a baseball field. you played a sport. you competed with each other and had a good time. i think that in so many ways is the essence of what college sport is all about and what we aim to successfully together support going forward. having said that's, thank you for this opportunity today to talk with you about the issues around name, image, and likeness, or nil. i want to be very clear about something upfront, and that is the ncaa and its schools support the right of every college athlete to benefit from the use of their name, image, and likeness, and we firmly believe there is an urgent need for congress to enact a federal framework that supports national nil legislation for all of our college athletes. this framework needs to put college athletes first.

on that, we all agree. while it has been exciting for me and others to see college athletes explore new financial options in the recent months, we are also seeing many challenges and concerning trends. these concerns, if not addressed soon, may be very difficult to reverse. they include a lack of a uniform protection for college athletes across the country around these deals, and increasingly uneven playing field for athletes exercising their opportunities, and a lack of transparency around agreements that can negatively affect the present and future prospects for college athletes. protections such as education on the basics of contract law and financial counseling vary across the patchwork of state laws today. not every college athlete will be approached by professional service providers and third parties with good intentions. without a uniform standard to

educate or protect them from bad actors, many will sign deals that are clearly one-sided and perhaps even harmful. additionally, some athletes are unlikely to be aware of the tax potential implications of these arrangements and may find themselves saddled with unanticipated tax bills i may be unable to pay. students who received financial aid could unknowingly lose their eligibility for aid due to the income they receive from an il deals. we want every college athlete to have baseline protections and uniform educational information at their disposal so they can make informed nil decisions. the patchwork of state laws has left college athletes subject to different standards than their peers in neighboring states. as of today, 35 states have passed laws, introduced legislation, or issued executive

orders to govern name, image, and likeness. these statutes and proposed policies have disparate provisions. in some cases, they attempt to legislate well beyond the issue of nil. and turn college athletes into paid professionals of the school. even laws that appear to have similar intent can be interpreted and enforced differentially depending on the state. in these early months, we have seen no effort to structure or enforce the laws that are in place to guide others in one direction, leading college athletes to navigate an unequal playing field pending on where they go to school. while some an il related deals have been disclosed by third-party providers, there is not a single entity that has a complete picture of the and ild earls and --nil deals and the parameters they have been built around. there is no way to know if the

arrangement is legitimate or simply a pay for play scheme disguised as nil. further, campus authority and decision-making seem to be shifting away from compliance with administrators, making disclosure and monitoring even more difficult at the local level. because we are not seeing the transparency and enforcement promised by many state laws, these worrisome trends might be difficult if not impossible to reverse without quick congressional action. a federal framework must include a transparent clearinghouse method to disclose nil transactions while ensuring student privacy, as well as the integrity of the college sports model. we share the committee's interest in providing all college athletes with an equal chance to benefit from these opportunities if they choose to do so. but we worry that the longer this patchwork of laws becomes rooted in a college sports, the

more difficult if not impossible it is to establish a national framework that ensures equal treatment of college athletes, regardless of what they play or where they go to school. because of the current legal environment and multiplicity of state laws, the ncaa alone cannot address this. we need to do it together. thank you for this opportunity to share my perspectives on this critical issue. we remain very proud of the opportunities that college sports provide to our student athletes. to reiterate, as we move forward, we seek three fundamental notions. we need a federal solution that sets the baseline of protections for college athletes. two, we need a law that provides national uniformity so that -- >> your time is up. >> i beg your pardon. we ensure transparency that preserves integrity of college sports. i apologize for being over. >> the gentleman yields back,

and now i want to recognize mr. omar for five minutes. >> thank you for inviting me to testify. i'm a former ucla football player and the executive director of the ncpa. the ncpa was a cosponsor of the california nil law that was a catalyst for change is nationwide, and it served as the primary advocate in support of nil laws in over a dozen states. i would like to thank you for your continued support and for introducing broad-based reforms, including the college athletes bill of rights last year. college athletes nationwide now have nil freedoms, so there is not a need for congress to act on this issue. but it is imperative that any

federal law include this, and it should not reduce freedoms in pursuit of a level playing field that has never existed. federal courts have concluded multiple times that a level playing field did not exist under rules that banned it. schools -- instead of reducing freedoms, so the ncaa can pretend equity exists, congress efforts should focus on establishing an entity for accurate rooms in tatian, preventing conflicts of interest restricting colleges from representing their athletes, and informing college athletes about issues surrounding nil.

the ncaa should not be put above the law with an antitrust exemption. they fought for decades to restrict freedoms. the congress committee has jurisdiction in matters of public health and should work to protect college athletes. in 2002, i testified before this subcommittee to sound the alarm about the lack of ncaa enforcement of health and safety standards after the 2001 deaths of college football players from northwestern, florida, and florida state. we asked congress to protect college athletes, and they didn't. 85 college athletes have died from college sports activities. in the following years, surveys found that 30% of athletic trainers have admitted to returning players with concussions to the same game,

and said they were pressured by coaches to do so. there have been devastating accounts of suicide among athletes who were later determined to have cte. it is still not against rules to force an athlete with a concussion into the same game, and shamefully, it is not in the rules. what i did not know in my first testimony was hundreds of college athletes were being sexually abused by trainers at michigan, michigan state, and other schools. collagen is traders covered it up and the athletes had nowhere to go. college athletes still have nowhere to go. just last week, a team trainer from san jose state sexually abused 23 athletes over the course of years. congress must prioritize health and safety. inaction on this issue would guarantee athletes abused by

predators and would be a death sentence. just ask mark mcnair, whose son died during a football workout in 2018 that the university of maryland president admitted was negligent. ncaa sports blatantly discriminates against female athletes. the ncaa has -- despite title ix almost 50 years ago, there are 18,000 more male athletes in division i than female athletes. the $7 billion revenue boom in division i over the last 16 years was a great opportunity to add female sports. instead, participation increased by only two athletes, while the number of coaches exploded. this discrimination against female athletes should not be ignored or allowed to persist.

college athletes are too often stuck with medical bills. college sports are in crisis, but it is not because of athletes. the ncpa is asking they do not ignore abused bodies, the discrimination against female athletes, and other important matters. thank you. >> thank you, mr. huma. the gentleman yields back. and now, i would like to welcome dr. livingston for your presentation. >> sorry, i did not turn on my mic. thank you for the opportunity to testify on the issue of name, image, and likeness rights for student athletes.

as the president of baylor university, a former division i student-athlete myself, i am married to a former division i student-athlete, the mother of a former volleyball player, much like mr. hand, who is now a coach at the college level. i am deeply invested in making sure the college athletic experience is a positive one for all student athletes. at taylor, we are deeply committed to prioritizing our student athletes as students first across all 19 of our sports. we have over 500 student athletes achieving remarkable success on and off the field, winning national and conference championships and consistently leaving the big 12 conference in graduation rates. as an institution, we invest over $80,000 for full student athletes. we also have implemented health and safety protocols that prioritize our student athletes

and a four-year program to help them with financial literacy, business education, career planning, personal branding, leadership, and social responsibility. i believe this is a critical time for college athletics as we are having to rethink the status quo of recent decades due to numerous changes and challenges, including the supreme court decision, conference realignment, and changes in state laws. the current patchwork system of 30 plus state laws is very confusing for institutions and students and is not transparent. it will raise conflict of law issues and create risks for student athletes and institutions who suffer as a result of the disparity. such a legal landscape should not be permanent. i am eager to engage regarding these issues, including as a member of the ncaa constitution committee and vice chair of the board of the big 12 conference. now is the time to recommit and reshape college athletics to

better serve the future needs of our students and our institutions. congress has an important role on shaping the future of college athletes and should establish a uniform national standard to address the many challenges becoming evident around nil legislation. in our discussion today, i will consistently go back to three principles i believe should be the foundation to any federal nil legislation. the first is that any laws governing nil should treat them as students first and foremost. more than 98% of student athletes will not compete professionally, and we must remember we are talking about more than high visibility sports like football and basketball. the second principle is that federal legislation should support the current brought offerings for a diverse group of student athletes made possible by revenue shared from higher visibility sports, and avoid the creation of inequities in the treatment of men and women under

an employment model. the third principle is to ensure each institutions mission is preserved and unique circumstances are recognized, appreciating that different schools have different resource levels. for example, we know bay lower athletics is vastly different from those of hundreds of smaller institutions. i appreciate the interest of the committee as congress contemplates federal legislation. i encourage you to seek a national standard that includes the following priorities. first, federal legislation should preempt all current and future and il state laws, which would guarantee all student athletes have the sames nil rights regardless of where they live or study. next, the legislation should include clear definitions of an nil as between student athletes and parties. it should prohibit pay for play

models operating solely as an incentive to enroll or remain at an institution as a student athlete. also, federal legislation should seek to enhance the student-athlete experience and preserve diversity and sport offerings for men and women, and ensure student athletes can seek qualified advice about the use of their nil. finally, the legislation should include narrow safe harbor for entities that comply with the law. otherwise, institutions at risk -- are at risk of endless litigation that could threaten our core missions. thank you for the opportunity to testify before the subcommittee today. i look forward to working with you on this important issue. thank you. >> thank you, dr. livingston. now, miss mcwilliams, you are now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. good morning.

i am the commissioner for one of four conferences. name, image, and likeness -- we are one of three conferences. we play as historic role in this country. we provide leadership in our communities. our resources support 90% of black and brown athletes that tend to be first generation students. i appreciate the ability to testify today. all of us have been affected by

what we see and don't see. the programs help define our institutions and revenue potential. it impacts our ability to build without compromising the academic programs which are primary to the foundations, particularly for hbcu's. my concern today as a former female student athlete is the loss of innocence of sports being compromised. this is a transformative moment where they can use their nil as athletes. i worked in mentorship at the division i and to levels to include the board of governors for nil.

the ncaa gender equity's task force. i can assure you the challenges our divers and is a task by itself. i understand the concerns of public scrutiny and the challenges we have to protect the integrity of college sports. we have students who reside in five different states with different nil laws. although the doors are wide open , the laws are inconsistent. i want to assure you that 3000 young people every day and coaches who committed their lives to young adults and administrators were doing their best are more concerned about the academic achievement, health and safety, and academic opportunities are forward and less concerned about the inequities because of the inconsistencies of what we cannot control.

our students visibility may be different than what you see weekly, but the aches, pains, desires to win, academic goals, and dreams to be leaders and entrepreneurs are the same. i ask that we pause to understand the differences of who we are amongst our institutions and congresses. -- and conferences. the majority of us did not have the same level of resources. these areas are not the reality of most of our conferences and institutions. i believe that's why we're in this position. resource disparities already exists amongst our institution. does any federal bills that attempt to legislate on financial resources outside the nil will negatively impact division two and honestly any additional financial constraints could potentially eliminate our athletic programs and our conferences. i support giving our students the best opportunity to use their talents. i wish i had the same opportunity as a student athlete. so let me be clear, most of us have no interest in mandates that hinder the opportunities

that only framework that provides a level playing field to support their intercollegiate experience and to give our coaches and administrators a fair advantage to recruit, educate, and address title nine implications and to support this educational and entrepreneur experience, which is a foundation to who. i pray in the continued dialogue we don't compromise the beauty of why i chose to work in this industry. why i love to work for the ciaa. we thrive best with their rules and guidelines and in this case for college sports we need to prohibit pay for play, guard rails for collegiate recruiting and protections for standards of higher education and title nine. it's quite disappointing that we're in this place of not being able to legislate and govern ourselves as an organization. but now here we are. i hope that the concerns i have shared, leading a smaller conference with hbc institutions, will create opportunities that will be in the best interest for all and not just for a few.

as a division two conference, we need a level playing field. so we're not behind once again, . thank you. >> thank you, ms. mcwilliams. we have now concluded with the witness opening statements. at this time, we will move to member questions. each member will have five minutes to ask questions of the witnesses and that includes their answers. and i will start by recognising myself for five minutes. i want to begin with. -- i have a bunch of questions. so if you could keep your answers somewhat brief, i'd appreciate it. but mr. huma, i want to ask -- i think i know your ultimate answer -- but i would like you to discuss, is there a fundamental power imbalance between the collegiate athletes and the universities conferences -- universities, conferences, and athletic institutions that

may make players vulnerable to exploitation? >> thank you for that question. absolutely. and i think that's why we're all here at the end of the day, . those people, those constituents, you mentioned, the stakeholders have basically colluded, used their monopoly power, cartel power to leverage themselves in a way that denies freedoms and rights. the law was upheld by the supreme court. at the court, much of the exploitation is our anti trust violations that were made possible by the illegal collusion amongst the conferences in the schools of the ncaa. >> let me also ask you, beyond limitations on entering into name, image, and likeness, nil agreements, how has this power imbalance -- how has this power

imbalance affected college athletes? >> even down to their health and safety. the power imbalance is caused in a lot of ways for so many athletes who are being abused over years and years, who don't have a way to speak up. there's no viable way for them to get justice. as well as actual compensation. you know, i think the general counsel made very clear that college athletes have not been permitted by the >> and direct away from the labor rights under labor law and the laws of the country meant to give people a voice in the workplace and college athletes, and the interests,

and-- they need intervention and congress can do that and we want to make sure that congress not look past the critical issues. >> in your testimony you suggested that congress should look beyond focusing only on issues legislation. so what other protections should we be considering for college athletes? >> well, i think everyone in congress should not be subject to harm. so we need real health and safety enforcement in college sports and make sure that the college athletes are stuck with medical expenses and that the athletes finally achieve equality in college sports. we need to protect kids as far as academics.

and as i mentioned 7 million in the system and why wasn't that redirected to make sure they agree and have health and safety enforcement and if they're injured they can lose their scholarship. and those should not be ignored. >> thank you so much. dr. livingston. we all know about title x that prohibits discrimination. will the nil deals have an effect on equity in college athletics when it comes to men and women? >> i do think that there are some real risks and impacts potentially on women in college athletics, depending how this plays out. in some way, the way that nil

is playing out, athletes more like it's intended to be. women are sometimes more active on social media than males, and so they're benefitting in the ways that we intend as you heard tammy talking about in hers. where we see pay to play, football and basketball, the more high profile sports, i think over time where you'll see the greater impact and the greater potential negative impact on athletes if we move to a more employment modelle. if you start moving resources to individuals that generate the revenue, the high revenue support our women's sports and nonrevenue male sports. if we divert the revenue away from the sports with the most,

we will see a reduction in male nonrevenue sports and women's sports and fewer sports if we talk about reallocating revenue even beyond the impact of nil. >> that's worth a conversationment and my time has expired and now i recognize the subcommittee vice chair-- excuse me. all right. i just want to make it-- the ranging member for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair, i appreciate that. yeah, this is really good testimony. thank you all for your testimony today. i'm concerned the longer congress continues to stall shall stall, the student

athletes will be hurt by a lack of clear standards and i think that everyone basically testified to that, we all agree on that. so we need to pass the bill as soon as possible, in my opinion, but dr. emmeret do you believe the current laws within the reporting and disclosure threaten the viability and credibility of college athletics? >> i think it does not only because of the issues described earlier around the potential for the-- several things to occur, first that students are being treated differentially right now across the landscape. they don't know what the rules of engagement are. they don't know what their rights and opportunities are. secondly, we know that because there's not any enforcement mechanism or clear definitions,

some of the arrangements that are being made appear to be moving over toward more of a pay per play model aimed solely at recruitment of athletes from one institution to another and that leaves both individual athletes at the schools in a disproportionately, disadvantaged state and it also competitively advantages or disadvantages other schools based upon their geography and a variety of other factors and then the last piece is that as these arrangements move moron more toward institutionally based, rather than third party based, they do in fact run the risk of converting student athletes into employees and all three of those things are very serious threats to college sportsments thank you very much. next question is for miss mcwilliams, as a former college athlete yourself, you have a new eek understanding how student athletes have clear

standards and want to maintain the current integrity of collegiate athletics i believe for nonrevenue sports. if congress legislates the current model will this impact certain athletes more than others and do you have thoughts you would want to share on the important distinction between being an employee of the school, versus a representative of the school? ms. mcwilliams, please? >> thank you for the question. absolutely. i think there will be impacts on nonrevenue sports. if you think about the schools that exist in ncaa, 25 are revenue, most of our schools in division two and three, we're not exceeding our expenses each year, there are concerns. we need to make sure that whatever that's put in place, that it's in alignment with our

budgets and resources that we have in our institutions. i'm concerned if we don't, our schools won't be able to handle and manage expectations covering the digital health care and covering additional pay and those other things that that's not what we were designed to could do. and i also believe our ref into you and allowing football and basketball that you see and heard our president say that those resources support all of our sports that. and so the distinction between, you know, employee and the representatives, i was given access to an education and i don't believe that congress defined as employment if you're a student athlete. i think that going to college, we have the responsibility to

get the best access to succeed. in our lives, a great opportunity for our students to use their name, image and likeness to build upon that and as administrators and leaders we need to give them the right frame work and the opportunity to be successful. we're asking 18-year-olds to manage and be entrepreneurs. asking them to do things and create deals with no guidelines. i think that pay for play is concerned for us, but to help these young people to be successful as student athletes and not employees, is in the best interest of college athletics. >> thank you very much. dr. livingston, as more and more college athletes are approached to be in the concern, this is feature of florida law, do you think that the university should provide educational tools or classes to help students understand the dynamics are citing contracts and what that means for their future? and can you give us a sense

what you are providing to your student athletes? >> absolutely, it's critical. this is putting another level of pressure on student athletes that many of them are not prepared for, in the state law in texas it does require five hours of financial literacy training and they're required for the student athletes. at baylor, we have the program in place, baylor built that had principles related to career development. leadership development and community service and we have been added to that now that we have the nil responsibilities so we can have three pillars in that program. the first one is really a monitoring system and helping students report to us and texas law reports that students report what they're doing and we want to make sure as they do it, it's in compliance with state law and federal law and eligible to participate at the ncaa level so we have to educate on that level. we also have to help them

navigate the financial aspects of it and give them that kind of an education, the personal landing, how do you position yourself, and we've got a wonderful program that helps student athletes build on social media to enhance the fal and we have work on financial literacy from our law school, our business school, our entrepreneurship program and we help students understand what they need to do to get the right legal advice to be successful. we have a frame work for that and we built upon that, but there are institutions that do not have the resources to build out that program. i do think it's an opportunity also for there to be, if there's a national nil law and provides consistency and what's expected there can be national education programs that will be accessible to all institutions

regardless of your resource level and wouldn't rely on the actual resources that the individual schools had to provide that support. >> thank you very much, i appreciate that, very informative, thank you. >> the ranking member of the subcommittee yields back. and now i recognize the chairman of the full committee for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, chairwoman. the blood, sweat and tears of college athletes along with commitment for greatest has fueled college sports into becoming one of the most in the country until now athletes have been excluded from profiting. and i want to ask each of the witnesses a yes or no question. do you believe that congress should establish a federal frame work granting college athletes the right to earn compensation for the use of their name, image and likeness?

yes or no and i'll start with miss march and go through the list. miss march? >> yes. >> thank you. and then i'll -- huma? >> i'm sorry it's longer, yes if it's attached to broad-based reforms. >> thank you. dr. emmeret. >> yes, i do. >> dr. livingston? >> yes, and i didn't get to dr. mcwilliams. >> yes. >> all right. i think that was everybody. well, thank you. then let me go to ms. mcwilliams, college these be supposed to be college students. how do we open financial doors for athletes and make sure they get a meaningful career which for most will be outside of professional sports? >> that's a great question and i think that's a role that we

play in a collegiate athletics anyway, particularly in where most of our conference is to make sure that we're setting up our students not just as athletes, but we're setting them up to be prepared beyond that. as a former coach and also administrator on campus, you recruit students because you want to give them the best opportunity to succeed and i was a former athlete and chose to go to hampton for that opportunity and the whole entire way i was guided and given resources to help support the opportunity to be prepared, to be in this seat right here. i've never paid for college, and that's a blessing, not to have the -- to have that burden on my family that couldn't afford to do so. i often say that i used hampton as maybe people would say the college and our student athletes and make money off the backs of them. i think it's a two-way street

in how we look at this. and the blessing is, that i got prepared in the necessary way. career opportunity, connections outside the community. and the community service that we all want our student athletes to be a part of. and the opportunities were so grand and broad-based. and those stories are not often told that you don't hear. so i hope that as we continue to lead in this industry that we provide the opportunities for our students to have them the support they need to be successful entrepreneurs beyond playing the game. >> thank you. mr. huma, can you please share your thoughts, in professional sports there have been countless horror stories of deals and exploited by unscrupulous actors. i just was going to ask you to comment on that, if you would. >> sure.

and that's one of the risks with the freedoms that have been opened up. and there are risks that even the pro athletes are not immune from, when you have freedoms like this, there's always that risk. most states have in their laws that they have to be certified by the state and that's one protection, again, if included with broad-based reform, i think the federal legislation would be positive to include for representation and some reputation contracts. >> thank you. and dr. livingston. are you concerned that college athletes may be financially exploited by unscrupulous actors? >> i think it's a very likely risk in this kind after situation, you have young people, many from backgrounds that don't have that kind of experience. they may not have families that have lawyers and attorneys that they can turn to. and very likely there will be people in the industry that want to take advantage. and one example i heard and

this might not be unscrupulous, but you could have a young female student athlete that gets $5,000 for promoting a brand and she ends up with an all american volleyball player and she's got a long-term interest on her name and likeness. and she could play the olympic and her name and likeness may be worth more, but she made a bad deal in college when she didn't get advice. >> there needs to be guidance how student athletes pick agents, lawyers, accountants or attorneys, but also, protections that maybe even some screening mechanisms for who can be working with the student athletes that we know they're legitimate actors and looking out for the best interests of their clients. >> i recognize the ranking

member of the full committee, ms. rogers for five minutes. thank you, madam chair. tammy, thank you for sharing your experiences with us. it's great to see you as a washington state student athlete finding success on and off the golf course. i want to ask you if you would elaborate on the rules and what a level playing field will mean to you as far as helping you succeed as captain of washington state university's women's golf team, but also, as an app developer and your entrepreneurial aspirations. >> yes, thank you so much for your question. i think a level playing field is really important. when i was going through my recruiting process, there were a bunch of factors that i was thinking about, whether it be

location, who would give me the best education, the best programs, and i think adding another layer when it comes to nil it's hard to navigate. a lot of athletes are recruited before they're 18 so having to make that type of decision, it's just so hard. so i think a level playing field is very -- will help students and a half ga it -- navigate that process and for their education. >> thank you, would you speak more to just where we are today? because now we are -- you're free to pursue these students, but you were talking about the importance of a set of rules to be initially to you and your peers around the country as you think about your pursuing your passions to be entrepreneurial, but then not running afoul of rules based on what might be going on in a particular state.

>> i feel as though when i was going through my process of developing my app, there are a lot of hurdles i had to navigate compared to my other fellow students who had the same entrepreneurial mindset. there are waivers to go through and so i think that this standard and level playing field will really be helpful, with athletes who have aspirations of doing something entrepreneurial. >> thank you. >> very good. ms. mcwilliams, i wanted to ask you, recognizing that over half the states right now have some kind of nil law or executive order that's taken effect. allowing college athletes to have compensation for their

nil, i also note that there's additional states that are working on nil legislation in their legislatures, you bring a lifetime of perspectives to this issue both as an athlete and your current position, would you speak to how you see this playing out for student athletes, when there's differing incentives for recruitment? >> thank you for that. that question. and just acknowledgment of being in the industry. and seeing it now, we have athletes currently in our conference that have taken advantage or had the opportunity to sign a deal. and one in north carolina ap one in virginia and we're excited for them. but what i can say is that i could see that there could be some recruiting here with the different state laws and

actions and students based on the different laws and states and there are five states right now. in the five states i think we have one of our states has not-- their legislation hasn't gone through yet and that does not have anything quite yet and the other three do. he think the inequities that this could cause for recruitment and how student athletes have a better opportunity to go to one state or another, or school or another, and what it is for now and that's what we're doing. we already see the inkwekties across our divisions and it's inequities because we've got small schools and large schools and we want to make sure that they're in baseline laws that at least a level playing field in a way that our students are not competing or recruiting, has not competing and they don't have to make choices because they think they'll have a better chance one state to

another. we applaud the opportunity for this to happen, but there is some concern if there's no guardrails to protect the recruiting and the integrity. and also the student athletes who need it if they're trying to build their own entrepreneurship. >> thank you. >> that was good and important insight, i think, especially for female and minority athletes. if it you wanted to add anything. >> yeah, i mean, again, you know, our served. underserved institution, we have less resources, but somehow we still make access and opportunity available to our sponsors and to give them access and opportunity on this front, i think, is great. we want our black and brown students and across the world to do well. i think we have our own challenges, it's most difficult to compete with some of our majorities in our states.

so whatever we can do to make, again, a level playing field for our women and men, that's important to me. >> thank you everyone for being here, i have more questions, but i'll save them for another time. i yield back. >> thank the gentle woman for yielding back and now it's my pleasure to yield to my colleague from the state of illinois, congressman bobby rush. >> for five minutes. >> thank you. and i really want to-- >> can't hear you. >> you're on, but i-- it's very soft, speak up. >> i want to thank you, madam chairman, can you hear me? >> yes. >> all right, i want to thank you for this outstanding hearing and i want to commend the witnesses overall for your

extraordinary testimony. mr. huma, your riveting testimony and your very, very profound commitment is commendable and i just want you to address the issue of inducements to learn high school recruits and college transfers to particular university or institution. one thing that we do to permit nil agreements from being used as inducements at the high level and college transfer level. . chairman, thank you for that question. and you know, following some of the models, it kind of a parallel with free agency,

right? in the pro leagues if there's a free agent, a team has to committee, but didn't have name, image and likeness deals. so it's standard practice not to allow that to happen and restraint of trade to not allow that to happen and in my testimony i mentioned a reasonable restraint of trade and if congress wants to get involved they can have that directly rather than an anti-trust to do so. it should not operate above the law. it's been a chronic anti-trust violator, it cannot be trusted with powers like that. congress can implement that and it's in every state that's passed an executive order that's placed on those state legislations. >> well, i want to also ask you

that-- can you elaborate on why you feel as though in the nil doesn't really require those to protect the health and welfare of student athletes, we have -- can you elaborate on it? >> sure, nil is an important economic milestone and i think it helped bust through some of the cartel practices, illegal practices checkly. and i think there are few athletes that will capitalize in any meaningful way, but they deserve equal freedoms. it doesn't mean they'll be guaranteed a nil. you sign an autograph, you get punished, you do this and

demonized. but sexually assaulted we'll called on the ncaa to address and they have not. health and safety is a top priority. chronic sports injuries is a real thing done over 50% of the division one athletes across all sports will have a chronic college sports injury with no support. ncaa sports is not helping pay for medical expenses for players broken up down the line. there are many more pressing issues and this should not be ignored by congress. >> and i can attest to that back in 2010 i was there and we had a round table and we had an athlete from university of oklahoma and saddled with medical costs. the university washed hand of

the whole incident and now athlete and his family are still suffering economic duress. so, i really appreciate your attention. and i want to ask one question. i am concerned about the impact of sports on our nation and our nation of sports future. how will these sports impact the ncaa-- [inaudible] >> mr. rush is out of time, but if you could quickly answer your question. >> i think if i understood your question, congressman, properly, i think one of the most important elements of college sports than what we can provide for young men and women is indeed to prepare them for their future life and their future professional careers and we must make sure, whether it's

physical and mental health well-being or the academic preparations they're prepared for that future. >> and yield back, madam chair. >> the gentleman yields back and mr. latta i recognize you for five minutes. thank you, madam chair and thanks to the witnesses for being here. i appreciate it. modernized rules are needed facing the student athletes. the new media landscape changed these into social media influencers seeking their names and likenesses. many states, including my state of ohio set up a frame of name, likeness and image rules, there needs to be -- the colleges in certain states have raigtings over counterparts across the

nation. all college athletes have and should have an equal chance to benefit from the students regardless of the size of the school or the sport that they play. it's vitally important that they preserve the collegiate model and process. dr. livingston, thanks for being with us today. in your testimony you mentioned that nil should not be used as incentive to attend one school over another and mentioned from the very large institutions and medium to small ceo's, colleges and universities. what guardrails would you suggest that should be put in place around booster or other third party activity when it comes to recruitment. >> i think where we have to think about the guardrails less about who is doing it and what they're paying student athletes to do. when you start thinking about boosters, we certainly want to be careful who is doing it and

why they're doing it, but i think it's more about what they're paying them to do and you know, like came's cammy's app, it's to her role as a student athlete. other member of the sports team is getting paid x numbers of dollars for that sports team. and that looks like inducement. because if they leave that, the name and likeness will not follow them. because does it matter if comes from a booster? but the intent. i harder to legislate, but it's something that we've got to give careful consideration to. we've seen situations where allegedly a company was paying for name, image and likeness

for a student athlete in a smaller market at a smaller institution and they're encouraging that student athlete to transfer to a larger market so they will be more valuable to the institution. and is that a-- >> what you just said there, transferring from, say, a smaller institution to larger division one school. and this student has already been paid for that nil in a contract for having been at the smaller school, but what you're saying then, that that larger institution-- or they're going to the large institution, whoever paid them for it is going to make a lot more money out of that likeness than earlier and that's what we've heard from testimony before. >> potentially and maybe pay that student athlete more if they move to the larger

institution. so there are clear incidents happening that look very much like pay for play that we need to find ways to put parameters and then the other piece is the enforcement piece of it. right now, most, many of the state laws do not have an enforcement mechanism in them. they say you can't do pay for play, but there's no enforcement mechanism when these arise to be able to look at them and see if they actually violate pay for play. so that's the other reason, the national standard or national enforcement mechanism so there's not just consistency in the standard, but in the enforcement. >> thank you. doctor, now that they've been entered into million dollar nil contract agreements, these have a long-term impact on the students, however, important that these students are given the tools to ensure they aren't taken advantage of by the

exploitive agreements. could you speak to conversations you've had to that end? >> yes, i think the most important issues are those that dr. livingstone is talking about, there's clarity what the relationship is, that there's education underneath the-- that undergirds this, what a model agreement should look like, what they're committing themselves to, the time span, the flexibility of the commitment. we need to have those policies in place so that they can be uniform across the country rather than having to have different ones in each of the various states. secondly we need to make sure that there's sufficient transparency, not a deal by deal arrangements, but an understanding of the kinds of arrangements being made so that you can get at a better understanding of who is doing what, when and where to the

points that doctor livingstone was making and we do those and place standardization that congress could put in place and young men and women doing these deals. >> thank you, madam chair, i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back and now i recognize congresswoman caster. >> thank you, for appearing today. on july 1st, the state of florida and likeness law went into affect and joined 14 other states and there are many more on the way. florida's law states that come satisfaction may not be provided-- compensation may not be provided for athletic performance, for attention at a particular institution and may only be provided by a third party unaffiliated with the school. i want to see if you think that's the right approach.

i'm very interested in the discussion about abuses in recruiting that ms. mcwilliams highlighted as recruiting wars and representative rush talking about inducements and mr. huma weighed in and doctor, your explanation. i'd like to ask ms. march as a student athlete, what, is that the right approach? and how do you think this could be used to benefit students, but give us advice on how to avoid those, the recruiting abuses. >> yes, thank you for your questions. when thing of the new nil, i think of how now, they have access to us. i've seen on my instagram and social media accounts how

people and different companies are asking me to post things and be a march part of their brand. and the access and they don't know how to navigate the conversations they could potentially find themselves in a situation that is less than ideal. so hopefully that answers. >> dr. livingstone, how do we determine that parties are truly unaffiliated. >> you would have to have a clear definition what it means to be affiliated. within the ncaa we have guidelines who a booster is and there's guidelines who is booster is and what they can and can't do in dealing with student athletes and that's something that we have to monitor and pay attention to. so i think you would have to have and i don't know whether the florida law provides guidance on that, that portion of the law sounds like the direction you'd like to see something go on a national level, but i think you'd have

to have a clear affiliation on what it means to be affiliated and it goes back to the question earlier, is it okay for boosters and supporters of an institution. you need to look at what an affiliation is or an individual and make it clear what that is that the student athletes and individuals know and have the right enforcement mechanisms is in place. >> that's back to who should enforce this. >> right. >> and mr. huma, you heard dr. livingston say, okay, we need some kind of national enforcement entity? what's your view on that. >> again, i think i have a form including an nil. would be what we support and the type of enforcement needed would be a third party. not the ncaa, and they would have that directly, but in terms of boosters back to my

opening remarks, in order to win recruiting. and that was my point. they're already competing and this is an unlevel playing field and making 30, 32 million in revenue and university of florida has about 140 million in revenue and they're both in the division. they're competing, but that's lopsided and that's long before nil. and the boosters can be a source for athletes. and recruiting anyway. that's what they're doing to boost the program. to draw the line in the sand and say, wait, we're not going to let athletes benefit because of competitive level playing field and equity. we will allow the booster to pay out the biggest coaches and having the best facilities to affect the recruits is something that we would have,

and in florida, and we'd try to get that out and implemented that. >> thank you, i have one final quick question for the doctor. there are many college athletes who are international students on f-1 visas, and they prohibit the student athletes from nil, does ncaa have a position on this? >> well, we certainly, first of all, we recognize the problem that that can create, and if the f-1 visa individual is now being considered an employee rather than a student, does that change their status and one of the issues that would need to be addressed in federal legislation is clarification around that from my own personal perspective, i would like to see a model where the international students could participate in the nil like national students do, but they'd have to be very, very careful and that's one of the bits of confusion in this.

>> thank you very much. >> the gentle lady yields back and now i recognize mr. guthrey for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair, i appreciate it and thanks for being here today. i'm glad we're doing the cast of attention, a lot of students have walking around or pocket money and if you don't come from a family of means you can't go home for other sites and that's a move. university of kentucky makes more in football rather than basketball, using athletic money to spawn other programs. when you say all big money for athletics, it's not going for profit it's going to other parts of the university and we have to figure that. and northwest university i can't tell you to the penny, but north of $250,000 for a full ride scholarship for four years and that's not small change either. but nil, and doctor

livingstone, since you're here in front of me. we're talking about play to say. i'm barbecue and bowling green, kentucky and fire the five starters on monday night to talk about week ahead and past and coaches do that all the time and sign deals to do that. they come to my restaurant and they get to come to the restaurant because they're a starter for kentucky and the value they bring if they're the starters, they fill up my restaurant, it's name likeness and image, saysy play to play. i use today play for lexington, i don't have a that in lexton and -- how do you define this how would you define pay for

play, if your name, likeness and image is because you're a quarterback for alabama, and somebody wants to pay you a million dollars for that. and is that wrong because he's valuable to the brand? how do you police this? >> it's a very important question, congressman, and i think there's two elements to it that can allow sensible enforcement. the first is this notion of transparency, understanding what that relationship is so that you know, you don't need to know all the business details of it, but you know what that relationship is and whether it's the institution or the third party that we've been talking about that congress could establish to do that and that gives you understanding of the transaction. >> does that open you up. i gave you $500,000 last year and i'm not going to give it to

you because i'd give it to players-- and even though you're doing it for the right reasons? >> yes, i understand, it could be first of all, trarns parent and then secondly to what dr. livingstone was saying earlier, it needs to be clear what the relationship is, what is the student athlete delivering, are they legitimately delivering something of value. i would not see that as pay for play, i would see the student athlete providing the perfectly good business utilization as anybody else promoting your particular product, a restaurant and they're bringing in customers and it's straight forward business deal. so i think you can differentiate there. where it is -- where it is simply tied to an individual who you don't have any relationship with, they're someone who is not doing anything for you, they're playing ball for you and getting that quarter million, half million dollars and you would say there's no

transaction here, that was just being paid to play that position. >> we have a patch work of laws, and kentucky had an executive order and alabama i think special in the legislature they didn't want to get behind on it. what have the states passed? we have to get to the specifics of it. what have you seen the two of you or anybody, that a state passed that we should not have in a federal law? what do we preempt? i know we need preemptions to are consistency, but what element one state did it and this is just bad? what is that? >> i think there's several elements. there's at least one state i know of that in fact allows, indeed encourages the universities themselves to be the broker, the person who arranges for these relationships and that, i think, is straight forward pay for play in that context, so i think that's one problem. i think the second problem, there is no requirement for any

form of transparency. no reporting requirement and no understanding even at the institutional level and third, no enforcement mechanism or attempt to create an enforcement model throughout those things and i think those are the core elements in some state laws that are challengingments could i add one item? >> as long as they'll let you. >> the time expired. >> chair, appreciate it. >> and now our student athlete, past student athlete. >> former. >> congresswoman trahan for five minutesments thank you madam chair, and thank you for the witnesses for testifying again and dr. emmert, it's great to see you go enand my questions are for you. i would i could allocate my colleagues remaining time and ask all of my questions, but i think it's fair to say that for a long time the argument against allowing college

athletes to be compensated for the use of nil, it would effectively end college athletes as you know it. based on what you have seen in the past three months and the new ail policy went into effect. do you believe that college athletics are on the verge of extinction? >> thank you for the question. resistance mopping the -- the resistance and concerns of the schools was all the potential for this to go awry. if we can in fact have a framework to create the guardrails, i think the opposite of seeing the end of college sports, it can be a wonderful educational adjunct for students. >> i agree. look. if deals started to take the shape of resembling pay for play which has been discussed today. it just highlights what we've known for years, and that's

that there is a market for paying college athletes and while nil is only part of the solution, it is why we need to be really honest, that athletes do work for universities, and deserve the same rights as employees across other industries, especially as pertains to striking the balance of academic experiences and health and safety that's been raised and certainly equity. dr. emmert. you said that a national standard should be nil, do you agree it should be as pro athlete as possible. >> i'm sorry? >> the national standard should be as pro athlete as possible? >> i do. i think that, again, these are students as we've heard from ms. march that students can take advantage of, build life long skills and revenue whether it's small or large, that can

be helpful and healthy if we can do it in an appropriate fashion. >> have you or the ncaa bodies identified what you believe to be necessary restrictions on athletes, nil? i know some of them have been shared, but is there any other outstanding you'd like to share with the committee as we sort of think about this legislation? >> well, we have and in fact, the membership of the mca, the school spent nearly two years trying to craft specific legislation that was about to go into place when the state laws were triggered. so we would be happy to provide the committee with the proposals that the membership was about to agree on last june. >> terrific. we would love that. in fact, when typically what happens when we, congress, work on large long overdue issues like this one, there's a temptation and it's pretty common for a power broker, like the ncaa, to withhold their priorities and work behind the scenes against those views, not

as in their favor. as you know, senator murphy and i have legislation that's central around protecting the value proposition for college completes. would you commit to working with members of this committee to craft the legislative sticks that prioritizes college athletes and pledge not to have your lobbyists sink that for that legislation to become law? >> i will most certainly agree would work with this committee or any other committee and i've done so for a good while now especially around this issue and i want very much to make sure that legislation supports and protects our student athletes and works to their advantage. i'm a life long educator and most know me as president of the ncaa and i was first a, you know, president for three decades and i've spent my life to that cause and of course, i'd work to that end. i appreciate it. and as you might expect, dr.

emmert, i appreciate that and will hold you to that. >> my final question, you know, as i've mentioned or it's been mentioned, we're all encouraged by the efforts from individual institutions, chapel hill, washington state, and it sounds like pay lore as well, that have proactively provided support to college athletes with respect to the nil rights. do you agree that they should be providing all level of support to all athletes in their program regardless of their race, the gender, the sport that they play? >> i do. thank you. this is a much longer conversation and we didn't get a chance to talk on some of the bigger issues in terms of the structure of college athletes, but getting the nil to a place we can all be proud of. thank you, i yield back. >> the gentle woman yields

back. those people who may have extra time, if you want to yield to congresswoman trahan, i would prem it. next, mr. armstrong is recognized. >> thank you, madam chair. it's undergoing change and i think congress should do no harm of unintended consequences. dr. livingstone, could you provide us with the number of athletes and sports played at baylor? >> i'm sorry, what was the question how many student athletes we have in sports at baylor? >> about 525 student athletes across 19 sports. >> and roughly how many of the baylor student athletes play in revenue sports? >> men's basketball and football are our two revenue sports at baylor. all of our other sports require

reallocation of resources in order to support them. >> and dr. emmert, can you provide the same figures for the ncaa? >> yes, roughly half a million student athletes that play across in total over 19,000 different teams, 1100 different schools and most of those, all of those programs have basketball programs and football programs, but for the great majority of those 1100 schools, none of those are producing sports. and when you look at schools, there's well less than 50 that we could say are cash flow positive or profitable. where they are the revenue is disproportionately coming from football and men's basketball and a few other sports, women's basketball, in a few cases ice

hockey, cases north dakota and a handful of others. >> thank you. and i think those numbers indicate, the numbers indicate there's a significant space majority in sports. and institutions to pay 50% of revenue from certain revenue generating sports minus expense toss to a fund to an athlete in that specific sport. it's my understanding that it's generated by revenue sports and sustained nonref few sports, is that correct? >> that's correct. when we look at that, all of the revenue goes into one pool, so to speak. and we have the services that we provide against sports programs and would be

challenging for even a sport from baylor and others to support as many nonrevenue sports, women's sports, and a model like that. when you think of sports that do not a profitable program even in men's football and basketball, doing reallocation would be more devastating to those kind of institutions. >> if we assume that covered sports are likely to be men's football and basketball and und's case, probably men's hockey, we're benefitting athletes in those sports at the cost of other sports and student athletes. what challenge would they face if the revenue funded sports to nonrevenue funded sports. >> you would have to fund those at a much lower level or reduce

the number of sports you offered or you would have to make a determination to real ka it r sources from other programs that used to be supported by athletic revenues. and that's challenging in higher education. we try to do everything we can to make our programs self-sustaining and not have to use resources from other programs. that's challenging given the small number that have access programs that generate excess revenuements doctor, has the ncaa studied the proposal and have ramifications on female college athletics? >> well, the majority of women's sports are nonrevenue producing sports and they're dependent upon either the revenue sports or subsidies

from the sports, student athletic fees for targeted donations or just transfer of money as dr. livingstone said from the rest of the university. there are very, very few schools of those 1100 who operate without some level at this point. so you would have to make the kinds of trade-offs and decisions that dr. livingstone was just describing. >> thanks, i see my time has expired. i appreciate it and i yield back. >> i thank the gentleman and now recognize mr. mcnerney for five minutes. >> i thank the chair and i thank the panelists. it's an interesting discussion. and clearly uniform nil regulations are needed as well as a level playing field and we'll take that as a certain starting point to mr. huma. the state of california was the first to have the college

athlete nil and fair pay to play act and endorsements and college athletes and more and group licenses permitting a coalition of athletes to collectively enter into licensing deals with the company. and mr. huma. how could a licensing deal like this benefit college athletes. >> thanks for the question. it's an important part. actually it was pretty exciting earlier this year and the sports announced the return of college football in their video games and to put the athletes in there and because the nca pro biggses-- prohibitions and typically the sports pay the athletes in form of group licenses to use their rights ap the players get to play a game they love to play

and get a few bucks, some money, trading cards. and every dollar in predominantly -- and the low income backgrounds. ... so, is there some altruism involved in that? i mean, there's some players are going to beless likely to get the bucks for their for their endorsements and so on. and so, the more problem athletes have to agree to give up a little bit. am i interpreting that correctly? >> it is something away for athletes many beginners who are not going to get a deal with any kind of significant have a chance to earn a few bucks. >> ms. march come have you and your fellow athletes discuss the

possibility of group field may be for the whole golf team? basically how much interest is there in this approach among your friends and teammates? do you feel there's widespread interest in thisll sort of arrangement outside of your group in your university? >> thank you for your question. on my team specifically we have six ladies that are international students. i bet on other teams that there probably are, i have been some discussion. but with me personally, we have not had not discussed this. >> thank you. ms. mcwilliams, in your written testimony, you discussed the importance of understanding resource disparities among institutions. my home is the district -- my district is the home of the ever

see of the pacific, a division i school as well as the san joaquin delta colleges, community college, the bring in less revenue than other high-profile institutions. how can we ensure that lower revenue generating schools and programs are able to offer the same n.i.l. opportunities to their athletes? >> yeah, i mean, i think again, you know, with the baseline um framework of work, the framework of legislation that allows at least that start of everyone having access to the same thing. i mean, even with a group licensing piece, there are institutions who have currently have resources to have access to third parties to do that. i can tell you that my institutions are still working on what that could look like for there because we do not have those extensive resources to bring in a third party yet. and that we need to come out that is still in discussion for each of our institutions. i think the ability for us to continue to fund raise, we do

all these things for our student athletes, honestly. i want our student athletes to be successful in this n.i.l. piece. the level playing field is never going to be level. it's never going to be the same equity across all of our institutions and divisions, and never has been, at the end of the day, what can we do at our institutions to make sure that we have whatever resources we have to make these opportunities great for our students. and not to put legislation in that's going to impact is even more. we cannot afford, like school close athletics programs if they are our rules and laws in place they're going to require us to do more than we are currently doing. you can help us by not putting in laws they're going to put more strain on us. >> thanks for that nuanced answer. and i am going to yield back. >> gentleman yields back and now

i recognize congresswoman clarke for five minutes. >> your muted. -- you are muted. we cannot hear you. you are muted. >> got that, thank you madam chair. and i thank our expert witnesses for joining us. for this important hearing. today's college athletes in the aggregate, generate millions of dollars in revenue for the ncaa ,, -- athletic conferences and universities. these record revenues have led to lucrative coaching contracts, lavish gold plated athletic facilities and seemingly exponential increases in recruiting funds. but the athletes overwhelmingly, students of color who put themselves at risk of injury to compete, particularly in the highest revenue generating

sports, are often responsible for covering the cost of their health insurance, out of pocket expenses from injuries suffered during their time as student athletes. through the current policies, governing health care coverage, effectively protect the health safety and welfare of collegiate athletes and that coverage extend beyond the time period when their efforts are being televised and monetized by the ncaa? >> well, thank you for the question, congresswoman. i think the area of health care and health concerns of student athletes is something that we always have to keep in the front of our mind. ncaa was created 115 years ago. specifically around those issues and concerns. the policies today require that student athletes all be covered by health insurance. either that of themselves, if they are an adult and independent or their families or

the university itself. in the case of the high revenue sports in high revenue schools, those you see on tv, the vast majority of those provide that healthcare directly. many, but not all provide health care to continue beyond the time that they have competed when their eligibility expires. and should they have injuries that are catastrophic injuries that continue into their years beyond eligibility, the ncaa itself has a catastrophic insurance policy that can protect them throughout their life. there has been and continues to be active debate about whether or not that's adequate and i think those are important questions. >> well, thank you. do you agree with that assessment? >> i beg your pardon? >> i would say most of it is not accurate in terms of what you're asking. the catastrophic injury insurance policy, virtually no

athlete qualifies for. you have, as i mentioned, about 50% of college athletes with chronic college sports injuries after they're done. and virtually none of them qualify for that fund. in terms of even the big schools. typically they require players to have their own insurance and many of them if they don't, they require the athlete to purchase the school's health insurance plan. they don't simply provide it. it's actually my alma mater, it was right there in the handbook actually garnish your , scholarship check in order to pay for it. so, lots of disturbing trends. >> would the health safety and welfare of collegiate athletes improve if institutions of higher education were required to cover all costs of medical insurance and any out of pocket expenses incurred by the player for college sports related injuries? and what about if the schools had to cover long term care related to injuries that occur while the player is competing for the school? >> absolutely. and i think that the reality is that for the schools that can

afford it. absolutely. we've suggested trigger language schools in state division three and two that are struggling a lot more. it might be a bit much, but when you hit $20 million in athletics revenue, you can pay for out of pocket expenses. when you hit $50 million, you can pay for full coverage and out of pocket expenses for up to four years. and that's $7 billion dollars i mentioned. and revenue explosion of the last 16 years can be used for a fund, put some of that in a fund for players who long after they're done. some of these athletes i mentioned among the 50% who have chronic injuries where they can go and help get help for surgeries and treatment that they still need. >> very well. doctor livingstone, i know we all want to ensure the students are properly taken care of. why don't schools already cover these expenses? >> well, i think that the level at which schools cover these expenses varies pretty significantly based on the financial resources that that school has access to. we certainly provide medical support and care for our student athletes, provide mental health support and care for our student

athletes. we have even, we provide support for them for the first couple of years after they leave. if they have mental health support they need to continue and they don't have their own means to cover that from an insurance perspective or from a physical injury. we've even provided care for student athletes in extended care, addiction recovery programs or mental health facilities when they needed that. and it was something that that was going to help them continue their education to be successful. so i think where the challenge becomes miss mcwilliams might be , able to speak to this even better than i can for institutions that do not have athletics programs that generate excess revenue the impact of , having a significant burden of requiring some of these benefits could be quite challenging for them. we all care deeply about the health and well being of our student athletes, i think how to manage that and how to pay for that is a real challenge.

>> i yield back, thank you very much, madam chair. >> the gentlewoman yields back, i now recognize congresswoman dingell for her five minutes of questions. >> thank you chairwoman , schakowsky and thank you for holding this hearing. as a member who represents a big ten school and the university of michigan, go blue and a mid , american conference school in eastern michigan university as well as being a graduate of georgetown university this is a , subject i have deep interest in and have already been spending a lot of time talking to coaches, athletes university , administrators and i'm really pleased to see the bipartisan attention on this issue and that the committee is taking the time to dig into the topic and examine all the different ways to support our student athletes. a crucial part of this

conversation has been ensuring that student athletes are able to achieve both their educational and their personal goals. many of you have suggested that student athletes are students first and foremost. in contrast in your testimony, , you suggest that some student athletes have been pushed to pursue less rigorous subjects or majors in order to develop -- devote more time to their sport, which would be antithetical to that goal. long term educational attainment is inextricably linked to our conversation about a student and athlete's ability to monetize their name, image or likeness dr livingston as a university president and former college athlete how can a federal in on , -- federal n.i.l. framework or other policies being considered today, ensure that students are

not facing between their participation in collegiate athletics monetization of n.i.l. and educational attainment, which for many has long term financial ramifications for these athletes beyond their post secondary years. do you have recommendations for specific policies that congress or other authorities should implement to protect college athletes educational goals? >> now, i really appreciate that question, congresswoman, and i think one of the points i made is that any national legislation on n.i.l. has to make sure that the student portion of the student athlete's experience remains the highest priority for them. we know, as we've said, 98% of these student athletes will never have a professional contract. many of them, their n.i.l. will be less valuable after they graduate. and so it's very, very important that they get an education. so i think we have to continue uh to ensure that there are

requirements for attendance in college to progress towards the degree that we encourage and incentivize them to be successful and to get a college degree. so i think any federal legislation needs to continue to make that a high priority. i think it is why an employment model becomes more challenging because once someone is an employee of the university, the question becomes, is your highest priority for that individual as an employee or as potentially a part time student rather than a full time student. so i think any legislation has to ensure that the student portion of that individual's experience remains of the highest priority in the context of their ability to take advantage of their name, image, and likeness and continue to be perform effectively as an , athlete. >> thank you i'm going to ask , you to provide an answer to that for the record? but i'm down to a minute and 28 seconds and i'm really worried about women's sports that , doesn't often receive the same support, promotion, recognition

or attention that men's sports programs do. so title xi requires equal opportunities for men and women into college athletics and now presents a potential avenue to give women new opportunities at making money for the use of the likeness. so ms mcwilliams, in the time we have left. is there any concern that federal legislation could exacerbate these inequalities, or are there benefits in which buffalo n.i.l. policy might help promote women's sports programs and bridge these disparities in treatment. what policy should we consider in crafting this entity -- n.i.l. legislation? >> thank you. i think all the things that we discussed today and the responsibility that we have as leaders to protect title xi. i do agree we are out of whack here. this is a sad day to be having this conversation, working in

this industry, being an athlete, having conversations with the ncaa. i'm a member of the organization, gender equity is extremely important to me. we have a responsibility to make sure it does not get lost. whatever conversation that is, whatever policy that is, that is the responsibility of leaders around this table, to ensure those conversations do not get lost and never bared by what would be -- believe is the highest priority. we have a responsibility to make sure they never get lost, the conversations are real and honest in the every woman and every student athlete has an opportunity. and policies in place to have that happen. >> thank you.

i yield back, madam chair, with more questions for the record. >> the gentlewoman yields back. and now i recognize congresswoman kelly. >> thank you, chair schakowsky for holding this hearing today. , one thing we can agree this collegiate athletes to system that protects their well being an interest both on and off the field, but even the best design frameworks will fail to achieve their objective if not properly enforced. as congress considers establishing a federal framework to protect collegiate athletes. what enforcement mechanisms should be considered? >> i think again, i think it needs to be 3rd party, it should not be in the hands of then stay or conferences or the schools. i think a lot of it would be overseeing what the school is due in and not doing in terms of whether not they're getting involved in representing players, arranging an i.o.dios using n.i.l. deals as inducements. i think those are some of the things that i believe everyone probably agrees on.

i also believe there are certain freedoms there in place that should be protected. such as making sure that athletes can secure representation that that aren't just limited to n.i.l. all representation. legal representation. some of the states have restricted that some of the states have prohibited colleges from allowing to co brand meaning use their logos and a third party agreement. the logos are win win for the player and the school and it doesn't have to be arranged by the school. the third party comes in and brokers a deal. if it's initiated by the third party then that's great. , any kind of disclosures which, you know, from our perspective don't need to happen. but if if there's, uh, too much, you know, that bill wouldn't pass that there were , disclosures, it should be kept private. these are these are the things that should be public information. there are a lot of deals and i'd imagine, you know, again, if you're an app maker cami you know, if you have some things that are maybe industry secrets, you don't want even your school knowing really because oftentimes your ideas can get stolen. so, there has to be maximum safeguards for the athletes and

anything that the if there is um conflicts, the school should not have the ability to have control of whether or not a player can get into a certain deal that should be third party um regulated mandated by congress. >> ms. mcwilliams, care to share your thoughts? >> yeah, i would disagree with that. i think if you're in higher education or your job, there's conflict of interest. as student athletes, you have the ability to use your name, image and likeness. whether you disclose what you're doing or not, there has to be some protection or guard rails and we have compliance and government people in our staff that do that do this work every single day. they're the ones who are burdened, they have the burden and they are managing this every day. and so if they're going to have to do it and we want to make sure that these student athletes are doing their due diligence, they're having the opportunities, the guardrails are to make sure that there's no conflict of interest with the

university. i worked for the cia and though i love the n.i.l. i don't want to see a student where ncaa making money off the ciaa right? so there's, there's a, there's a commitment on both sides that we all have to make to make this work for all of us. some have suggested a new independent entity should be charged with monitoring and ensuring compliance with laws governing names, image and likeness compensation for collegiate athletes. dr livingstone, do you think there should? >> and if so, do you think he should be established or an already existing entity that take on that role? >> i do think that an independent body could be very effective in doing this. i do think we have to be careful that it's not a politically uh -- political body that has sort of political influences in how it makes that decision. i'm just going to use a specific example. one of the things we struggle with at colleges and

universities is the title xi legislation which has had a huge impact on women in college sports. uh but as each administration changes, uh our title nine policies have to change. and so there's a deep inconsistency in from administration to administration and in what we do with regard to enforcing title xi. and so i think we need to make sure if it's an independent body, it is truly independent, has people on it that understand college athletics and n.i.l. issues and that it it has a fair mechanism for enforcement on a national level. >> thank you. do you feel like you have sufficient resources to ensure your concerns and health and safety are being met. does being met? >> i feel like they are athlete first. we are a community that are meant to help the -- help each other.

they offer us protection for eligibility for health reasons. thank you to all the witnesses, i yield back, madam chair. >> the gentlewoman yields back. i recognize now mr. soto for five minutes for questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. there has been to tell tell stories we have read in papers and seen in newscasts in florida over and over. it seems to repeat itself with a lot of our amazing college athletes in florida. one is the bizarre story of a top athlete being involved in a theft case, whether it is at a grocery store, a retail establishment, someone who is gracing our television screens on sunday or during a great amazing games during the week. and we see other a repeat story

over and over of an early death of a former major college star. whether it be by health issue as early as the late 20s, early 30s or even by violence as they get back home and maybe have to even turn to crime. and it shows all these themes that come up, lot of athletes are coming from poor families, they don't have health insurance, some of them, they many of them are, some of them , aren't graduating there, -- they are surrounded by great wealth all around them, and in spite of their fame, they are living without the funds needed to be able to live their normal lives. so they turn to these bizarre situations that tellthose

are tell tale stories that tell us that we we must have some changes. we've seen it in florida with a new law allowing college students to be paid for their name image and likeness. the n.i.l. we've talked about a lot today and see a we see is moving forward on a similar rule which we appreciate. and under the florida law mandates financial training in life skills workshops to athletes twice during their college career. and we've heard about that today about the importance of having proper legal representation on proper financial training as we may be dealing with major financial decisions. my main two questions and we'll do them in tandem for all of our witnesses, do you believe that the ncaa and our college system will be able to come together to have a standard guarantee of health insurance for all college athletes in a living stipend so that they're not living in poverty surrounded by wealth. and get into these situations.

>> first of all, thank you congressman. the two questions really are at the center of what's constantly debated and discussed within the ncaa. and the rulemaking structure that the universities participate in. there has been a constant improvement in the health care supported that's provided to student athletes as we just heard from one of our student athletes. the biggest differentiator that causes me concern is between those schools who have abundant resources and those that don't, commissioner mcwilliams was talking about this there are , schools that struggle with providing all of those amenities that a school like baylor or another power five school can provide. and i worry greatly about those two distinctions on both ends of the continuum. we need to collectively find solutions to that. >> i want to turn next to uh

miss cameron march for the same question. how important it is to have a guarantee of health insurance and a reasonable living stipend for color gently? >> i believe is very critical to have come up for the health and well-being, for athletes, i hope we can all come together and do that. >> next, the same question, the importance of standardizing health insurance access and living stipends. >> i think it is important to not only standardize it, but to actually pay for it that the schools in the ncaa. with the post season revenues, -- direct some of that money into meaningful ways so that players don't have out of pocket. and some of the players whose who are bring their own insurance. their parents are paying for them to be on that premium. so they're shifting the burden of responsibility for other ones. very healthy athletes to the

families, they come from poor backgrounds. i don't think sports is gonna really ever come together and and pay players any kind of affordable stipend because every single stitch of progress has been made through the courts on that issue, including one of the circumstance that finally we want to just cover the cost of attendance. so any kind of change in those areas i think will be outside of ncaa sports. >> and just as a close we see major league baseball do profit sharing among all sorts of baseball teams among other private sector leagues. so this is something that could be brought together and i yield >> back. >> the gentleman yields back, and now mr. carter, you have been patiently waiting to avon to this committee. i recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. earlier, he was talking about the catastrophic insurance, i

believe you wanted to expand on that. about the insurance offered to the student athletes? >> i want to make clear that student athletes across all of our divisions are required to have either provided by their family because of employment relationships or the institution, to have health insurance. they all have insurance through their time as a student athlete and should they have injuries while they are a student athlete that exceed the limits of those -- that coverage, there is a catastrophic injury policy that the fca pays millions of dollars for every year that covers those athletes. we have had student athletes become heard for significant amounts come up $100,000 or more a year for their entire lifetime to cover the cost of their injuries. >> thank you. let me ask you, i want to go back to one of my colleagues,

and mention the paper plate. that seems like -- pay for play, that seems like a simple -- slippery slope. what happened at a school out west, where the school arranged the agreement for a company to give scholarships or money to pay for each of the 123 players on the football team to get the equivalent of tuition. how cannot not be paid for play? >> that is part of why we are here today, we need standardize definitions across the country about what is and what is not at corporate relationship around name, image and likeness. today we do not have that. we need continuity so about the universities themselves and the athletes know and those who enter into those arrangements note what the rules of the game are.

it is a slippery slope, as we have been discussing today come up one of the keys is having those relationships be transparent so people know they are going on and consistency about whether or not the student athlete him or herself is providing something of value in exchange for those resources rather than just showing up and playing football. >> not necessarily football and basketball but some of the other sports, especially, is it dean -- it is deemed pay for play, how is that going to impact their eligibility for future olympics? if a student athlete who has been playing come up on a swimming scholarship or diving, and it is being noted that was pay for play, are they going to be eligible for the olympics once they are finished? i am not an expert on olympic eligibility, i do believe they

would be allowed to compete. >> don't you think that should be clarified with the olympic? >> it clearly should be. >> i hope the ncaa will take that upon themselves to clarify that. another concern, during this hearing about the revenues, go to academics as well to help with that. is it your concern about the sponsorships withdrawing through that going through the students instead, university of kentucky, you get kroger field, are they -- at the aversive georgia we've got that earphones have the delta emblem on it. he got nike jerseys and everything, are these companies now going to shift to the students and away from the schools and therefore the revenues are going to decrease and it is going to go back on the state legislatures duck fund more for academics, has not been looked at? >> it has certainly been widely

discussed. the evidence of our is not clear, we'll have two months of data, it is one of the real concerns the athletic directors are concerned about. >> with good reason. i remember the olympics we had the basketball dream team, some of them were not with the official sponsor, whether it was nike, some of the athletes did not want to wear nike, so they had to put the dust cover up the emblem. how do you do that if a school uses a certain company, but the student has an agreement with another company? >> right now there is a patchwork of different laws, folks the issue differently in several states. some allow student athletes to be mandated to wear a specific uniforms, some do not require that. some would allow student athlete to where she brand of his or her

choice, it is not clearly regulated today. it is one of those areas of great complexity and why we need a national law. >> in a nutshell, a mess. thank you, i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back, also waiving onto our subcommittee, i recognize congresswoman schreier. >> thank you, madam chair. i would simply like to yield to my colleague. mr han. >> thank you congresswoman. i so appreciate the time. according to data available from the equity and athletics disclosure act, there are 2071 institutions of higher ed with athletic programs that are recipients of federal funds, 90% of which are still out of compliance with title xi. the fact, 50 years after the passage of title xi, females are

being annually short changed by a billion dollars in athletic scholarships and nearly 100 and -- 150,000 sports participation opportunities. it is also common knowledge that these institutions are providing significantly more dollars promoting and publicizing men's revenue sports which has an , adverse impact on female athletes seeking n.i.l. employment in the open marketplace. so i have two questions. one if a university only focus on focuses on deals with its basketball and football teams, are they violation of title xi, and how is the ncaa ensuring that universities assist athletes with an il deals -- n.i.l. deals do so in an equitable manner? >> well, i'm certainly not an expert on the legal nuances of title xi around whether or not

the relationship you're describing would be in violation of title xi. so i won't i won't offer an opinion on that. i do know that the individual schools and the conferences with which i'm most familiar, work quite hard as we do at the national level to promote sports as equitably and assertively as we can. we do live in a society and indeed, perhaps beyond our society, where the majority of the highest profile sporting events are male dominated. that's a reality. whether that makes sense or not is a different matter. so when you look at where are , the largest revenues that are coming in from media deals, for example, or where do you get the largest audiences regardless of what schools promotional model? maybe they're typically football, which is of course the largest national sport. and then and then basketball. so whether or not their engagement around that violates title xi i simply cannot say. what i can say is that we would very much like to see in federal

legislation policies that make , clear that institutions in the implementation of any title xi engagement are doing so in a way that's completely equitable across genders and every other group regardless of their sport, regardless of their gender. and i think that's certainly possible and plausible within legislation that could be passed. >> i'm gonna move real quickly to yesterday's release of the nlrb's memo because the n.c -- ncaa put out a statement saying that college athletes are students who compete against students, not employees, who compete against employees. and added that both academics and athletics are part of the total educational experience. you know, i've heard from countless current and former athletes who experienced the same thing. -- same thing i did, a system that rewards athletic performance first and then that full academic experience, internships, job opportunities, travel abroad, that sort of

thing comes close to near last. so i'm a proponent of giving athletes the power to organize and collectively bargain for fair and better treatment in a system that, you know, just for too long has a history of not having their backs. i mean, being a college athlete is a source of enormous pride, but also enormous sacrifice. so making sure that we have a an ability to give the power back to the athletes so that they can bargain for better athletic academic balance is key. i know your position on the legislation. i read your statement after senator murphy and i launched it, but since you're opposed to giving athletes a voice through collective bargaining what do , you and the association propose to give athletes not just a voice, but an actual say in setting the expectations of their performance in the classroom and in their sport? >> well, if i can say this

quickly first of all, i think , student athletes's commitment to their sports and their academic success is an enormous effort. it is extraordinary to me when i see what student athletes do in both the classroom and on the court or the field and i'm incredibly proud of them. i do believe that there are many ways in which they should be provided more opportunities to strike a balance between those two, including more time to finish their degree or to continue in internships or a variety of other activities, as you point out, i think it's very hard to balance those two. i think in terms of the student voice and vote, we need to make sure, and i hope that we can continue to make progress on this something that i've been , very engaged in to continue to do that so that student athletes are more involved in every one of the committees and decision making bodies of the association they are in 80% were 90% of them now, but we need more, and i support that clearly. could i disclose, --

>> but i just close, madam chair, thank you. i appreciate this. i know that there's a lot on the table and i really do appreciate the testimony. it's informative. the scales of college athletics have been so dramatically tilted in the direction of everyone who isn't an athlete for so long. um one of the reasons why we take the tech that we do is because we're less concerned about going too far in the direction of giving athletes power than then not giving them enough. so this is an issue of fairness. it's an issue of equity. and while i don't often find myself associating my views with justice kavanaugh, i share many of the perspectives that were laid out in his concurring opinion in austin earlier this summer. so i think it's important we get this right. that means getting it right for college athletes first and foremost. thank you, this is very helpful. i yield back. >> the gentlewoman who is an expert on the subject, and i'm

sure will be part of many of the conversations going forward, yields back. mr. duncan, welcome, and you now are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you and thank the committee for letting me wave on.

because nil is the name, image, and likeness and their the ones getting the economic deal. they should negotiate themselves and colleges and universities should not be in the middle of that transaction. and so we don't need, i think we have an opportunity to get nil legislation a national standard passed but we don't need to muddy the water with collective-bargaining and revenue sharing and all these other things because that may prohibit us from getting an nil bill passed if we keep our eye on the ball make sure we do something to protect students and athletes and colleges and universities up second that but protect them as well. and not muddy the water. remedy sharing is an interesting thing because doctor lullingstone said it best, is that the big-ticket, , sports a football and basketball in some cases, they provide the revenue that will allow the colleges and universities to have all the

down ticket sports, the women's soccer and lacrosse and softball and swimming and and i could goh a whole litany of sports that don't generate the revenue and they're paid for, the universities have those sports because of the football programs. what that means is there are students, studentnt athletes tht now have an opportunity to come to university on scholarship that they can get an education that they would not have otherwise due to economic conditions or individually for parents to pay for that college tuition. they have the opportunity because football pays for women'st softball. and if you do revenue-sharing you take that ability for those universities to have those down ticket sports. opportunities educational , opportunities for those student athletes. so those those are things we need to think about. i think we can have a

conversation, madam chairman about all of the issues of , revenue sharing and liability and lifetime insurance and all pay for play. all the payment of students. we can have that conversation. it's probably worth having that conversation, not at ncaa but from the united states congress at some point. but we have a chance to get on, -- n.i.l. without muddying the water. that's one of the big points i want to to make. greg steuby hit a home run last night for the republican team as we beat the democrats. and if he was a student athlete or an up and coming high school player he would have had the , opportunity probably to go get a scholarship and probably have an n.i.l. deal waiting on him. but then he would have to try to figure out well the laws in south carolina where i wanna go play at clemson may be different than the university of florida or even utah. which you know, that's a whole another conversation. what brigham young, byu is doing. so we need a national standard.

is that important? -- it is that important. but the end of the day, who governs that and who negotiates it and who enforces it? i wanted to ask just one question. should conferences and associations be able to make and enforce recruiting rules that ban financial inducements. yes or no? >> note that should be done . that should be done directly from congress because otherwise they would need an antitrust exemption which they don't they would put them above the law. >> is ms. mcwilliam still on. you highlighted that the c.i.a stretches over five states including pennsylvania, maryland, virginia, north carolina, south carolina. while north carolina and ohio law is similar to south they are not the same. carolina they are not the same. for example, south china law , -- south carolina law prevents universities from directly

or indirectly facilitating an io -- facilitating n.i.l. deals for athletes, which i think is the right thing to do. in contrast, is not covered in the north carolina law. so how do you think coordination by one school and not another impact the competition on the field? >> i think it will impact. i think that disparity alone again, you can do one thing in student -- south carolina, our student athletes are who are interested in going to class in university compared to going to university. -- i mean, we can just talk about division two and division one. there's a greater access in one state and another. i mean, being that we are neighboring states. it's just interesting that we haven't been able to work together on legislation in the first thing is to get to a place where we can both manage our institutions in our state, by get their differences. i think it's hard. i mean, we can see right now this we're all over the place. i mean, it's an association of membership trying to define the fine line between our division one, division to division three states of state, private and public.

it is tough. i agree with you there needs to be some mandate across the board , where at the gates already with different legislation, how can we take what is the best out of interest of the stay and get to a place where we can all be on the same page for our student athletes? they have the same fairness recruiting advantages. , you name it across the book. yeah, i agree with you. -- i think you're right. >> look, the horse has already left the barn, in iowa, has already put the rules and see aa has put forward. -- ncaa has put forward. the college universities are having to navigate this quagmire of 50 different patchwork laws because the states are passing their own laws because they see the need to do that protect the student athlete and the universities that fall into their funding stream madam. sure, we have an opportunity to get an aisle legislation out of this congress and i urge that we pass a clean n.i.l. bill dealing

with that and with that, i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back and we do have one more for questioning and that is mr bhushan is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much. first of all, i apologize for missing a lot of the questioning. i had another thing to do and i couldn't get out of it. thank you madam. chair college athletics of course have served long served as an important venue for hoosiers indiana. i'm from indiana as well as college students from across the country to get their degrees while participating in sports that they love and even even some of them make careers out of it. 2%, as has been mentioned, how are the enactment of a number of state laws to put put this into focus the system of college athletics as it relates to uh the n.i.l. situation. and we've talked about that a block. so i'm going to hone down to a specific issue that has been mentioned. while there are a number of other issues. this one is important. important some athletes are signing deals before they even stepped on the playing field, the collegiate level. and making deals with companies, some based, maybe not in the united states. and then being pressured, influenced by the government of those countries?

that's a potential concern . prominent college athletes can have an enormous influence on our culture, particularly amongst our younger children. and should we be concerned about the ability of governments and get into which ones, to interfere in the affairs of our nation by putting pressure on college athletes and using college campuses, which has been done to influence our culture amongst our young people. but now if you have some of the most prominent athletes on campus that are caught up in that, is that going to be an issue? as an example, do you think that there should be any restrictions placed on n.i.l. deals to restrict them from being entered with companies with close ties, for example with the communist chinese communist party would be an extreme example. um, are there any associated dangers to athletes or institutions that you foresee that congress should work to address when working on a national n.i.l. framework? >> well, thanks for the question

. i think there there needs to be again greater clarity around , what are and what are not appropriate sponsors there. this is confused by the patchwork of laws, we've been talking about some allow the schools to to determine which sponsors are out of bounds when they're inconsistent with the values of the institution. others specify specific industries, gambling or alcohol, tobacco, atc. -- etc. other states have no restrictions whatsoever. so i think that what is necessary and what i would urge is in the final crafting of a n.i.l. bill here in another chambers that that we have an open frank discussion and debate about where there are appropriate boundaries and where there are not. my instinct would be to be as liberal as possible and allowing students to to explore the

market. but there are there are on the other hand challenges , nonetheless that need to be explored. >> i mean, for example, we we subsequently have found out for on campuses with related to the chinese government confucius institutes and that, and also students involved in research projects that have specific department of defense focus. in fact, we have recently did not allow that not to happen anymore. so, you know, you could see the next frontier is promoting through high profile college athletes things that maybe the , college athletes don't understand themselves and not saying they would promote it, but i'm saying they could be caught up in this. and it's important. i think as many people have mentioned, to make sure the contractual relationships young college athletes get involved in have some degree of scrutiny. by someone. dr. livingston, you represent an institution with immense resources. i think you've mentioned that as , well as a conference with a

great deal of power in the future of n.i.l.. how do you perceive performing your role as an educator as well for these young athletes as they begin to capitalize on this opportunity? and how do we ensure that smaller institutions that do not have the same brand power as you do and not come out on the losing end of multiple n.i.l. laws if we don't do something here at the federal level? >> yes, thank you for that question. you know, i think that our role as educators just informs how we help our student athletes uh navigate n.i.l. i shared earlier some of the things we do at baylor to help educate our students and prepare them to do n.i.l. so i think it's just part of our responsibility as we really for all of our students on our campus, try to help prepare them for life, both while they're on our campus. and then after they leave, we have a phrase we use in our athletics program called preparing champions for life. and so in all aspects of what we do with our student athletes, we want them not just to be successful on the field or the

court or on the track. we want them to be prepared when they leave baylor to be successful in life as parents, as spouses, as employees, as community members. and so n.i.l. is just a piece of that. so i think it just uh the philosophy we have just wraps around that new piece that we have to deal with in terms of smaller institutions and we've talked quite a bit about this. , i think the uneven landscape probably has an even more challenging impact on smaller institutions in smaller markets. you've heard ms mcwilliams talk some about that. so i think it's this national standard that helps us all understand how to do this and frankly it probably will take fewer resources for less resource schools to be able to be in compliance with national standards than if they're dealing with just their state standards, students coming in from different institutions because you can then provide educational materials, you can provide support at a national level, whether it's through the

ncaa or some other body to be able to support those institutions. >> thank you, madam chairwoman, for your indulgence. and i just want to say whatever we do, we certainly don't want colleges to make the decision to scrap athletics altogether. and that could happen if we do this wrong and we could lose tons of potential student athletes and educated citizens. i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back and that concludes the questions. i do want to thank our witnesses for their participation in uh in today's hearings. before i adjourn, i just want to have unanimous consent to enter the following document, only one this time into the record, a , letter from representatives cleaver and allred. i seek unanimous consent.

without objection? >> without objection. >> so ordered. i want to remind our members and we will do that, that pursuant to committee rules they have ten business days to submit additional questions for the record to be answered by our witnesses who have appeared today and we appeal to you to respond in in a shorter perif time as possible. and at that time, at this time the subcommittee is adjourned. thank you. en[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

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