tv In Depth Roxanne Dunbar- Ortiz CSPAN October 4, 2021 2:00am-4:03am EDT
formed, is where things that would protect the southern states. and due to this day. >> host: professor going to have to leave it there we are out of time. very quickly roxanne dunbar ortiz book to memoirs red dirt growing up in oklahoma and then outlaw woman a memoir of the warriors and indigenous peoples history of the united states which won the american book award in 2015, all the real indians died off in 20 other myths about native americans, loaded and disarming history of the second amendment and her most recent book not a nation of immigrants, settler colonialism, white supremacy and the history of erasure andue
united states and the recently published evolution of immigrants. >> roxanne dunbar ortiz i want to start with our conversation today with a quote from your most recent book not an issue to be regrouped, in the book you write the claim that the united states is a nation of immigrants and aversion of u.s. nationals. what do you mean by that. >> in the past, before the terminology, a nation of immigrants arose, there was a degradation of immigrants, very hard processing, of acceptance, that still exist with chinese,
the first immigration law was an exclusion of chinese, it's been mainly about exclusion the term is very recent, i was surprised actually to find why it dates to 1958 and in minted by john f. kennedy when he was senator, is seem to be whose purpose was planning to run for president and he had a difficult past because he was a child of immigrant irish and catholic and every president up until that time of his presidency had bid
engel or scott irish and protestant. so i think what he emphasizes in the little book that he published called the nation of immigrants, he emphasizes the great qualities about the irish in particular. it is mainly about that. but the terminology, i don't remember it frankly when i was in graduate school in history in the 1960s, i don't remember the term having caught on yet. i think it was multiculturalism more in the 1970s, 80s and by the 1990s it in all of the textbooks, and public schools and it simply an accepted term, i see it as opposed world war ii cold war competition with the
soviet union's two create a positive image, what people around the world were seen on television and black people being bloodied and beaten in the south the desegregation movements. this was a competition of not only in weapons and economics but also cultural in the soviet union and you definitely publicizing these negative qualities. i think a nation of immigrants was in immigration law that john f. kennedy did initiate, he was not alive when it was finally passed in 1965 but it did open
up immigration for the first time to non-european immigration so there was a liberal pinch is a new nationalism but we also have a fast developing white nationalism that opposes the and still does not want immigrants, people of color, pretty much want a white republic is not uncontested. >> when we go back in history and if we went back to the 1700s were there open borders at that time into the united states? >> there were no immigration laws but there was a great deal of suspicion of some immigrants,
not engel or scott or germans but alexander hamilton was absolutely paranoid about the french immigration that was during the french revolution and please revolutionaries would filtrate the united states can create ideas for the acts during that time with the preventative there's great suspicion of anyone who is not english speaking or german or scandinavian soon after but in the very beginning it was pretty limited and of course only males
in first property owners could be actual citizens. >> roxanne dunbar ortiz throughout your historical text you use the phrase settler colonialism, what you mean by that. >> it's one kind of western colonialism that started in the 15th century with the paper bowl the law of europe at the time was from the holy see that was international law so that law 1453 good portugal it was
normally estate it was a monarch the right to invade, occupy africa and enslave all the people, that was the beginning of the slave trade lives was the main slave market in the mediterranean. but then columbus voyage in 1492 commissioned by the monarchs of spain that the year after 1492 in 1493 the same kind of paper bowl gave all of the western hemisphere to the spanish monarchs to enslave all the people and to own all the
properties by the notion of discovery to the doctrine of discovery that's really what it became which is still the law in the united states and most of western europe, it is still the law even now today this medieval paper bowl is inscribed in the u.s. law through the supreme court decisions made in the 1830s. center colonialism is a type of european colonialism it already existed because for two centuries they colonized ireland and they were introduced and
settler colonialism devised it to push out the irish woodland that they own and this is how we get the scots irish which my father's family has descended from. when they came and migrated to the united states they came very seasoned colonialist in the. that established limited exist today as a contested territory is still under the british empire, these things are not
just history this was the first developed over a couple centuries brought to north america and because of the first landings of the puritans before that jamestown and especially with jamestown which is played down with the mercenary john smith and armed violent immediate taking of the land in jamestown and pushing up people very violently they also found a product weren't squashing the triad of american agriculture
before columbus. another item to buckle which they use for municipal purposes and ceremonies they didn't get addicted to it but started selling this and very quickly became a price commodity in western europe and everybody got addicted to it it only grew and grew and grew that was a formation of the british empire what these colonies can be appropriated to the native people who had developed and was already agricultural land and they had manicured before us and built roads all over the continental and the eastern
seaboard and appropriating what already existed and pushing the people out this was in part possible because the early had the knowledge and mechanisms for doing that in ireland but also developed as a program in itself this was replicated later it worked so well in the north american colonies and was applied in canada and the british holdings in canada applied later in new zealand and australia. these are the prototypes and later the spanish in the 1700s saw the success instead of
looting and mining the agriculture was very successful in north america. in the new colonies of conquest in argentina, chile and now his wife, they you settler colonialism are horrible violent ethnic cleansing re-genocide a is in north america. >> utility story and not the nation of teaching a course asking your students what did the united states look like geographically during the colonial period you said most include all of united states.
>> i call u.s. imperialism in your absence to draw what was initially what were the first states when the united states was developed draw a quick map of what to united states look like not expounding. i don't have those about how many states because i might tip them off but most of them do drugs in the continental i got them from them immediately, it is a subconscious memphis destiny that it will always be but of course it wasn't always
to be it took more than 100 years of daily unrelenting warfare to march across the continent later invasion of mexico and annexation of half of mexico. in that time the continent was not sold until 1890 which is a marker of the massacre in 1890 is a moment when all native people were herded onto concentration camps guarded by army bases and later became reservations, this is something that can be mapped i don't think educators are telling students as or throwing them but it's so
pervasive in the national consciousness the people in the united states that they see as having been that way, they immediately know they made a mistake and that can't be and it's a way of teaching to see, i've had that as a child and i'm sure no one ever gave me a test while i'm sure i thought the continental united states always what it was. >> when in your life did you question the history that you knew. >> i was never an early boomer in that respect i can't say that i was a group in rural oklahoma is not exactly a southern baptist so it's not exactly
where you might be exposed to anything near the idea that i have now. i think education is so important higher education that is when you possibly might bump in shoot some knowledge and that's why many people like nationalists and evangelicals the storage higher education there likely to lose the kid to knowledge so my first year at the university without the university of oklahoma did it
really, it was a period of desegregation in my last trip i school i went to trade school of public ice will be happy to be the first school in oklahoma to be integrated. so about 2225 out of 1500 students 20 or 25 black students were brought from the black high school to central high which is not nearly as good as cool as dunbar black school was far better educationally but the period of school migration this is 1956 a couple of years after
the supreme court decision desegregating schools. for the first time i was in community with black people who were being abused every day by white people slamming their lockers, breaking into their lockers for spiked the young black student had been trained not to react they were very dignified and it amazed me there was no way to avoid it well had to work at a trade quote was a job it was a full day but i
would observe these things i was appalled but i think something in my upbringing maybe in the southern baptist for my family and grandfather had been a member of the socialist party in local and my dad was not liberal but very proud of his dad i heard the stories and my grandfather with justice and fighting against the ku klux klan i became pretty quickly and antiracist and i'm very grateful for that experience because i'm not sure i would've had that experience that led me then to other things. the university able, i met, fell
in love and then married next year a young man who was architecture student and his family were liberal and trade unionists. and his father was the main person who integrated the carpenters union in oklahoma. it was a completely different setting that i lived there for five years, four years before we moved to california, i got educated but none of this led to understandings, they had big farmland the obvious had been the southern cheyenne reservation at one time. but i did not question any of that. it took quite a while graduate
school i think it was because i study latin american history and graduate school that i came to understand u.s. imperialism in the u.s. history classes which i also took because i did my dissertation on the border, i had to do both they never talked about imperialism, they called it -- i learned about the invasion of mexico which i had little knowledge of before, i think that led me on the path in the direction of wanting to understand this further and then i got involved and i had young professor of african americans study through japanese-american
film i volunteered to be a teaching assistant it was outside of the university i was asked to be an expert witness in the sovereignty case after 1973 and i had to do a lot of studying because really at the border in the southwest and specialize my dissertation of a history and mexico from precolonial times to the present. i was no expert of 1868, i knew
about it because of the american indian movement was very active and gloria junior who was the lead lawyer said you're probably a quick study and handed me an arm load of documents and books, i learned pretty fast that that experience in lincoln nebraska and a two week hearing, all of these people from pine ridge and the reservation came down and made an encampment on the missouri river and it was an extraordinary learning experience of listening to oral history of that treaty and
learning in the native people that i found not just there but "after words" that they have a strong world history and know the history and united states no one else knows it from the point of view of their experience. in the book and deduce people's history, then the united states and try to replicate that everything i have learned through all history and glorious are not always accurate with dates but they tip you off where you should go to look and fill it out and that is certainly the case that has been my research process since that time in 1974.
>> professor dunbar ortiz, before we leave not a nation of immigrants and look at some of your other books i want to finish our discussion with this quote, it is a james baldwin quote that you include in the conclusion i'm not a nation of immigrants, i love america more than any other country in the world and exactly for this reason i insist on the right to criticize her, is that your sentiment as well? >> no, and that paragraph i am pondering why anyone, any u.s. person who criticizes the united states, just tell the truth about u.s. history has to swear their loyalty to the united states, and makes no sense to
me, i do not love the united states, i don't know what that means, i love human beings, individuals but i say i love certain foods or something but to love and nation states, i don't understand patriotism i think it's a recent thing in world history and it is a poison that creates war in madness and the division that we have right now in this society. who is the greatest patriot. i was really criticizing because i don't think he really meant that. i mean i don't know i can't read his mind but everything else it is hard to think that love is the first thing that would come
to mind and his sentiment about the united states from his experience, i have nowhere near any kind of experience like that, i think at least as historians we have to tell the truth and i think we should be objective that we should not write the parler history and is building up in the united states insane you have to balance it with something good historians need to tell the truth about u.s. history they define when they have no limitation or apologies, when they get to their new country, i don't think that's true of other national historians, british historians can be pretty objective about the british empire, maybe the
french are more like the united states, i was actually criticized which i really do but i just felt bad, why does he have to say that with an apology and say i love the united states, i have the duty, i don't know about the right but i have the duty as a historian to tell the truth. >> you are 2014 book and indigenous peoples history of the united states, won the 2015 american book award, in that book professor dunbar ortiz you look at the standard or commonplace historical eras, the division and they include the colonial era, the revolutionary
war, jacksonian . . . civil war and reconstruction, industrial revolution and the gilded age, imperialism, aggressive-ism, world war i, depression, new deal, world war ii, cold war, vietnam, how would you rewrite that are those very divisions for studying history? >> in the book i debated with myself and i talked with other colleagues about how to reorder the chronology of the united states it would be more accurate it's a lot to ask of people who take away the framework that exist. i pretty much lived within the framework but also criticized it
while inside of it. for instance both historians, there is some changes but up until things started changing a little bit after 9/11 in the bush administration invasion of iraq and afghanistan they started thinking maybe the united states is imperialist but i say it with imperialist from the beginning, the usually day 1898 overseas invasion of the philippines, guam, taking hawaii and the specific islands occupying the philippines for 40 years that that they make it.
the end with world war ii the united states was founded in the division of the british empire, nothing really changed in terms of goal and the goal of western europe from early times of imperialism was to capture the wealth of china there was an obsession with china and the founding fathers the goal to get to the pacific they had maps in the northwest ordinance which was a condo congress developer for the constitution and then they folded it into the constitution the northwest ordinance had maps the headlines
and they were gonna be separate sovereign each state the sovereign state, it wasn't yet federalized is a constitutionalist so that her massachusetts across the continent to the pacific and in each state within its own territory in the spanish were holding all the territory west of the mississippi at that time that would be the first thing to get rid of the spanish into going to the northwest not to the pacific and did not refer to the pacific it referred to
conquer the ohio valley this was the main reason for independence the british proclamation of 1863 that the british settlers from going into ohio valley, they were already going on they were going to burn in others even george washington made a fortune through land coins he was going in with his militia i was wonder why this man in a fancy dress in houston plantation was a survey
or had a cousin who was a surveyor he was chopping around the mud in a working-class guy i could not put together of course he didn't tromp around but he led his militia to map these unseeded lands and he made a fortune off of selling deeds he was only one many founders holding these deeds that were no good unless they could claim the lamb and make the proper deed. this was a major cause in the declaration that we talk about about being a strained and protecting the savage, all of
that is about the proclamation. that is about the barrier that was put. not only for bailey when going in there, the british sent redcoats to go in and bring people back. suppose the demolitions were supposed to be doing that to but they all had investment, most of them in investment in taking that land. that was a major reason for a dependent. i call that being founding is an empire when you're going to get to the pacific and then dominate china that is called imperialism. i don't change the order of chronology an unusual one but
within those i change this argument. >> yearbook conditions peoples history of the united states brings to mind 1980 book and people sense of the united states, is that your comparison? >> i love howard zinn's book when he came on 1980 i adopted it with my introductory history class in my university immediately and it was such a gift for students to have poetic and places and books that told the truth. i loved it and i got to know howard and his other books.
it's such a classic marker for a change in the teaching of u.s. history but i do feel, it opens no other book at that time not with the precolonial people there and mostly not very accurate information if at all in u.s. history what he says is genocide very moving first chapter and for the native students and others in native american history classes, it was unprecedented to have a book that started in that way.
he doesn't really deal with what happened during the civil war and the u.s. military didn't miss a beat in his move across the country and they rounded up all of the people that they can round up and they marched a long walk in a concentration camp. they were left until after the civil war, the army went into protect the scandinavians who are common and were and forcibly trying to force the difficult farmers out into the u.s. army
and it doesn't appear in the book, he does get back to the army in the west and the genocidal wars and deals with the wounded massacre but then it cuts the whole 20th century there is nothing about native people until the 1960s in the red power movement. i used to ask where the native people were really hibernating, what were they doing and he would say i don't how to write this, you have to do that. that's what i decided to do was fill in howard zinn's book to make it more complete but it's still a very wonderful book that
i think is not only to be honored by everyone and their young adult version that is available to young people. my indigenous people's history in the united states also and young adult version. >> thank you for joining us on tv today, we have one author on to talk about his or her body of work and this month it was destroying author and activist roxanne dunbar ortiz. she started publishing books in 1997, red dirt growing up was her first on number of the waiters came out in 2001 and you just peoples history of the united states came out in 2014 which one the american award in
2015 all the real indians died out about native americans came on 2016 loaded disarming history of the second number in 2018 and the most recent which we discussed not a nation of immigrants, petals or colonialism, white supremacy in the history of exclusion just came out this year. we want you to participate in this conversation with roxanne dunbar ortiz, here's how you can do it will click the phone numbers on the screen reminder 202 is area code if you live in the easter central 748-8200 is the number for you to die if you live in mountain pacific (202)748-8201, we have a third phone line this is for text messages only (202)748-8203
sending a text please include your first name intercity as well, text messages only on online you can also find us on e-mail book tv as they spend outward and on social media instagram, facebook, twitter booktv is a handle that is what you need to remember we will begin taking your phone calls very shortly. roxanne dunbar ortiz growing up okay, what's an okie. >> is a very preferred term that was created for the refugees during the depression it came to california and it was a slur word of okie and it was shunned it was a fighting word in oklahoma, none of my family migrated at the time my father
we said only the wealthy farmers could migrate because they had cars or trucks and we didn't, my dad was a farmer and did not own land. but he was hurt by it because there was no more small farmers to be attended for. that term was not at all used until rural haggard beloved in oklahoma and he's a californian from california, when he did okie from muskogee i think that really changed by the time i wrote a memoir i felt very free
to use the term okie so that's the origin of it and a slur word turned around into a sense of pride. >> in the author's notes of indigenous people my mother was part indian most likely cherokee board in joplin missouri, you go on to write other things and then you conclude the paragraph by saying my mother was ashamed of being part indian, she died of alcoholism. >> i think i've rethought that since i published it. i think it's really important that native identity be identified with the tribal with the tribe, it is not a race
there is no such thing as indian, more than 300 different native communities, without ties i never had ties with anything and is pretty certain that probably my mother was not cherokee, there is no tracing him, i think when i made that assessment at the time, i had not really given enough thought, i rethought it and i very much doubt that and i certainly would not call myself cherokee. so my mother did die of alcoholism, she was not an alcoholic during my childhood, i was the youngest. but she had a very hard life she
was an orphan and her mother died when she was four and she was kind of shifted around, she had eight brothers and sisters and shifted around to new families and then within a school that was sort of more like a juvenile place. she was 15 when she met my dad who is a cowboy literally working on a ranch in the northeast and then he came back to the hometown where i was raised where his father and both sides of his family had settled in central oklahoma.
they all left and moved to texas except him. so they married when my father was 17 and my mother was 15, young, kids, she had been through a lot she was a great mother to all of us, i was the youngest i was mathematics but when everyone grew up she did start drinking, her father was irish and had been an alcoholic and beloved, she loved her father, he was probably a jolly drunk, i never knew him but my brothers and sisters adored him, i do think it can be very generational but i think she got
it from her irish father, alcoholism. >> professor dunbar ortiz let's hear from some of our viewers this is carl in washington, d.c., please go ahead with your question or comment i want to thank you for your work, the question that i have with the environment today with critical race theory basically they are trying to deny the true history of america by saying white kids are so hurt by the critical race theory but they have no problem when i was in school teaching little black in the native americans and cutting people's heads off and stopping people and now you to be quiet for white kids so they won't know the truth how they tried to hide
the racial massacre, tulsa, the wilmington massacre and the numerous native american massacre. >> carl, i think we got the idea, professor. >> very good question i never thought i would live to see the day that legislatures including my home state of oklahoma making laws of for bidding the teaching of critical race theory in the first phase of most states. and in the schools but also i think the one in oklahoma reads anything that would criticize white people. but that is really not what critical race theory is is not a critique of white people at all or white individuals, it is a critique of the structures of racism, this is what they fear
they know better and they know it structural and all of my historical work is no attack on individuals, it is structural in society, people, there is something that links people together in a nation-state in the united states was founded as a white republic there is no way to deny that that it was founded as a white republic, all white, they tried to make alexander hamilton park black at one time because didn't pan out, it is a white republic so everything,
energy had 200 years of history on the white society that they became a white republic, a constitution that embedded in it, the protection of property, the property taking land from the native people but even more important especially by retirement the cotton kingdom was simply sleeved bodies, sleeved bodies made up the greatest asset greater than all other assets combined in the united states by 1840 simply the bodies not counting the unpaid labor. those are just facts that is not
criticizing, or really and how structurally they have to deal with and is problematic in the electoral college all of these things will in to exclude and control and written into the constitution and boding how the electoral college by state to the senators for state no matter what the population in
california and 40 million people, with the same number of senators in south dakota at 750,000 people, the southern slave states were less populated and they do have tremendous power, this is what critical race theory does to explain it and then you can do with what you wish, to say i don't want to know the truth and ignoring or you can say i have to know more about that, no one is making you believe in something, that is the truth and there are things that are true and are starkly facts. and denying them, that does not
mean that the not fax. >> i callers calling in from santa clarita, california you were on the phone with roxanne dunbar ortiz. >> you know about the mexican-american war in the annexation, when the abraham lincoln against the war when he was in congress but they convinced him to go along because if america had come out west the british would've come down south from canada and they may have ended up helping the confederacy in the civil war and if america had taken the west it wouldn't have gotten the gold and silver to pay for the army so they saved america next to the american war. >> do you want to, professor. >> i really looked at this, i have two chapters at the border
on the 20th century in the historical chapter, the united states to get to the pacific, they started sending spies to spanish territory accidentally getting arrested in colorado which is spanish territory and being taken all the way to mexico city they were trained spies and they could do maps along the way. this is 1806, still spanish territory in mexico became
dependent 1821. slavery from missouri started invading and taking land in texas very rich ground and very united states, that was in 1821 they first took texas was independent no longer the spanish was gone and the united states had a role in it and the mexican had a peasant revolution. they pretty well much got hijacked by the elite. they were very volatile country
in the revolution in the 20th century in the structure of the lien and would be repeated i don't think, i know in mexico it's very poor, the best source about the work the u.s. army official account which is on the internet, the books that i've written have all kinds of different things . . a racial argument that they didn't want all of these brown people as citizens, you know, talking about annexing all of mexico but they didn't want more
indians, and is so i think the level of the argument had nothing to do with all that strategic stuff of what would happen seeing into the future and the gold tier could they didn't know there was gold in california, so that is kind of backtracking and projecting it onto the future, but there are actual arguments where i think all of the northerners who were becoming abolitionists, they wanted to abolish slavery they didn't know what to do with food, you know, the freedom and arguments about that how they could to ship them back to africa or how to get rid of them so it wasn't exactly, you know, a liberal abolitionist except for a few very like john brown, absolutely dedicated, absolutely saw black and white people is totally equal i think he was
unique in that respect and we should honor him as being you know, the avatar of starting the civil war, but i don't think any were really against it in, you know, strategically that they wanted that territory, but abolitionists did feel that because of what was developing in texas with slavery moving in that it would be, you know, it could be that it would, you know, reinforce power to the southern state was a confederacy when informed actually wanted to take over all of central america and the caribbean and they were sent your list as the union, so
in the west they were often fighting you know not integrated, but each of them had their armies fighting, apaches and navajos, so it so i think the invasion of mexico created a border that i discussed quite a bit in the new book that is instable, it's a border that is artificial, it cuts through not only ecologies, but native people who straddle the border and cannot easily communicate with each other. it is an artificial landmark that was taken by violence,
military violence. a treaty of annexation, the treaty that is-- was done with a gun at the head under occupation -- mexico city was under occupation with the texas rangers running wild killing people, raping women, burning houses. a gun to the head to sign the treaty. i also have a degree in international human rights law and humanitarian law. that is an illegal treaty, so mexico if it had any power and would not you know suffer from going to the world court, anyway the united states wouldn't show up, but it could be won by
default is to reopen negotiations about that border and do something about it because it's not going to get any better. it is a contested border and it's a violent border and most people in the united states are totally unaware of the history of how it came to be? host: you are watching the tv and this is our in-depth program, one author, his or her body up work and our guest this month is roxanne dunbar-ortiz and we will continue our conversation with her in just a minute. >> years a look at some books being published, former democratic presidential primary candidate and new york mayoral candidate andrew yang offers his vision for the future. former national security council official in the first impeachment trial of former president trump suggests we must provide opportunities in
impoverished communities in that there is nothing for you here. in the dying a citizen victor davis hanson argues open borders have eroded the concept of citizenship. also published this week and i will take your questions now, stephanie grisham accounts her time at the trump administration as press secretary and advisor to melania trump. the aftermath of the tree of life synagogue shooting in pittsburgh and its effect on the local community in squirrel hill. in unsettled, addiction recovery advocate ryan hampton argues the bankruptcy of purdue pharma fails to provide justice for those impacted by the opioid crisis appeared behind these titles this upcoming week wherever books are sold. >> politics and prose bookstore in washington d.c. recently hosted a virtual event with meghan stone and rachel augustine who spoke
about the global impact of that "me too" movement. >> for me, i had been working on the 2016 presidential campaign as alyssa said trying to win out the dream of electing a first woman president in the united states and was really surprised in the aftermath of that election to see women's activism not only here in the united states, but around the world. if you think back to the 2017 women's march which was not only here in d.c., it was on every continent and it was organized transnationally and digitally in only 10 weeks because of this rising activism and as a counsel of a foreign relations team began to track this rising activism and we started to see not only an increase in the number of women raising their voices starting with the women's march moving to the me too movement
which glows globally starting october, 2017th to an incredible rise in a broad range of countries from afghanistan to brazil to places in the middle east that would surprise you and women were struck by this incredible wave and actually had the opportunity to host iraqi women activists as survivor of sexual slavery at the hands of isis at the council where she was advocating against discrimination and sexual abuse against women and met with many activists at the meeting and began treating stories about this rise we were seeing around the world that the stories were not being told in the american media and so lucky for me she agreed to join together to write this
together and we took this a journey around world and that's how we got this. >> to watch the rest of this program visit book tv.org using the search box at the top of the page to look for co-authors rachel vogelstein and meghan stone or the title of the book, awakening. >> here's a look at some publishing industry news, supreme court justice is writing a children's picture book, how to build a better world and the local-- the book will be released january 25 and according to the justice quote it will encourage children to use their power to help one another and began changing their communities. this will be the justices for the book which includes her memoir into prior children's books. also in the news this week the american library association held events for its annual band book week that quote highlights the value of open access to information and according to the library association last year more than 273 books were
challenged or banned in libraries and schools and in other news the nationally the number 17th award ceremony online, the foundation cited the delta variance for its reason to go virtual for the second year end the national book awards will stream on the foundation's website, facebook and youtube. according to bookscan print book sales were down over three and half percent for the week in september 18. book tv will continue to bring new programs and publishing news and you can watch all of our past programs anytime at the-- at book tv.org. host: we are back live with roxanne dunbar-ortiz whose most recent book is "not 'a nation of immigrants". federal colonialism, white supremacy and a history of eraser and exclusion. back to your phone calls, let's hear from
barbara-from massachusetts. caller: hello. i come to this phone call via hbo stunning documentary, exterminate all the groups about the history of eurocentric colonialism and genocide and doctor ortiz book is sitting in my lab here. taken out of the library on martha's vineyard where they still live in children and defendants to go to school with my grandchildren. i really want to remote exterminate all the brutes as i know doctor abel ortiz will tell us more about it. if you go to amazon.com they are selling all three books that are the historical backstops for this documentary which is four hours on hbo.
you are listening to the founder of the facebook page, the friends of rall tech and i hope everyone after watching the documentary will come enjoy the conversation which has taken off. please tell us how you got involved and how i reached out to you and just finally went to say this is a documentary of a decade, not the documentary of 2021 and it is here to revolutionize the historical record. host: thank you, barbara. roxanne dunbar-ortiz, what is exterminate all the brew? guest: it is exactly as she described. it is a paradigm shift in anything that's ever been on television, i think.
especially, you know broad television. it has long been one of my favorite. of course, i didn't know him, had never met him, never expected in my lifetime i would meet my favorite filmmaker and one day i get a call from bob pack and this was three years ago, 2018 and he told me about this and that-- i knew you know something which is the production company, i didn't know then had optioned the book for a film and i thought you know some small film company, but i had no idea it was that so he started telling me about the
idea he wanted to use my book. he had already chosen two other books, the great haitian historian, his book silencing the past and exterminate all the brutes, the name-- [inaudible] swedish writer and that compares the genocide of colonialism, colonial genocide is the precursor including german colonial genocide in southern africa to the holocaust, so he had already had these two books he was working with adapting and then he discovered my book and it was just before
it came out in the french edition based in paris who was english version and you know i was excited but he says i also want to work with you because the other two authors passed away, so he asked me too work a script with him, so i did that for the next couple of years. that's what i have been doing. it's been a fantastic experience and then in april launched, i had seen it in various phases and i had seen the final-- but, still actually seeing it knowing millions of people were watching it all over the world was just so exciting because it is about colonial
genocide and militarism and focuses on the united states and africa in the congo and also the caribbean, so i agree. the curriculum is being developed around it. we have a book planned, a book of essays that expand upon the theme in the bill-- film and taking other situations and looking at them. that should come out sometime next year so the project goes on and as the caller said this is not just a 2021 project. it's going to be more important, i think, 10, 20 years from now as a
guide to how the world works, how colonial genocide is produced, the situation in the world that exists today. host: mai, lakeside california, good afternoon. caller: good afternoon. i was fascinated with the discussion about the desire to go even as far back-- [inaudible] i will be looking at your book for that, but here in california just had a headline overnight that a pretty middle-class african-american family had some property up in either redondo beach and manhattan beach, which is kind of a suburb of los angeles and they were just awarded their land back that their family unjustly lost kind of making-- mimicking the oklahoma situation i think in the 1920s sometime around
them and they just got their property back just yesterday. wondering if you had heard about that or had any comments related to the whole westward expansion as well so thank you. host: bruce's beach and manhattan beach california. are you familiar with that story? guest: yes. i'm in san francisco and i read the los angeles times so quite a story and my first thought was this is the tip of the iceberg. if that happened to one family like that in california, there are many cases, so i hope others come forward and make their claims and make it known and now that-- i don't know why the generations past, some living people now may not even know what happened to their forbearers, but i think we will hear more about this kind of thing of land just being taken, not only from native
people, but from black people who just for homes, you know, that they lose-- 2008 was a horrible time for the black community suffered the most of all the foreclosures having been talked into deeds, mortgages that they couldn't handle, so great losses there appeared people still suffering from the. host: glenna, tulsa, oklahoma. roxanne dunbar-ortiz is our guest. please go ahead. caller: hello, such an honor to speak with you. i am unfamiliar with your work, but i plan on reading as many as i can. i had a comments. earlier today, i don't
know if i can say what network, msnbc, he took a road trip to south texas and interviewed a lot of the people whose families have lived there for generations and they were so kind to say the border-- we can cross the border, the border crossed us and they explained that there is only the humanist that being hispanic or indigenous or black is cultural, and ethnicity and i thought you might enjoy hearing what those people had to say. my other question is i haven't read your book on outlaw women, but i'm trying to find my ancestor cherokee ancestor readings from indian territory here in oklahoma and i'm curious
if in your research if you knew anything about if you knew anything about, kim starr was her cherokee husband and i'm wondering if my ancestors light of ferguson and denson brown hung out with them , just curious if you have run across those names. i know other historians here in tulsa are also looking. thank you. host: glenna, thank you very much. we should point out that outlaw woman is mostly about roxanne dunbar-ortiz's and her journey in effect i want to read a quote from the book. quote betty for dan said that scruffy feminists like me were giving the movement a bad name. i told betty that i
thought she feared losing her celebrity leadership position to women who were committed to elective action with no leaders and that she wanted no more than to put a few women into political office and as heads of corporation. she called me an anarchist. when did that conversation take place? >> it was in a green room before we went on a tv show together. so, yeah, she was a piece of work. i actually respect her more now that i am more mature myself in light of what she did than we did then as younger women were very radical, not just betty, but others were purposefully liberal, you know liberals, but i did to
repeat that she actually lived it to read it and was not happy with that, but she was a good person. back to the texas border, i actually saw that program myself this morning. i do get up early evening california. it was important. i hope it gets repeated, interview with mexican people on this side of the border in texas that the border crossed them that they did not cross the border and it should be open and i agree with that. as for the belt star, that's interesting they asked about that because that's a group that was a shelled i was working on when i asked-- i was
asked to write indigenous people of the united states and since then i've written three other books and i still haven't gotten back to my belt start book, but i grew up in oklahoma with this is my greatest hero. many people especially in the east never heard of belle starr, that they have heard of jesse james usually ended she ran with jesse james gang. she was much younger, but what they all were, jesse james, the younger brothers, endless movies and belle starr, they were all confederate guerrillas in missouri. they were on the side of the confederacy appeared they were slaveowners. once i learned that, it wasn't until i moved to california and aged 21 that i actually learned that jesse james you know and then it was like a "house of cards",
jesse james was a confederate girl and then they all were because they were all running together. and they became bandits afterwards, so i hold-- have a chapter on this in my book loaded disarming history of the second amendment if anyone is interested in reading more about the bandits, the confederate guerrilla bandits, they were great heroes of not only movie westerns, the small children like me, but i hope to get back to writing them belt start book. the cherokee connection of the belle starr's daughter got pregnant by a cherokee boy, but belle sent her to a place-- i don't know where they did this in those days that she gave birth and the child was taken from her and
adopted out because belle starr-- well, the girl was only 15 years old, but it could have also been prejudiced against the cherokees. that is the only native connection i know of with belle starr. host: donna in maine. donna, please go ahead with your question or comment. caller: hello. this is a wonderful program. thank you. i wish i could take your classes but i will have to read your book. i just finished killers of the flower moon about the osage indians in oklahoma and how they were robbed of their lives, they were murdered actually so i people could get the rights to their oil that was called an underground reservation
for having grown up in oklahoma, you must have heard about that. i wonder what you listened it to when you are growing up, what your personal experience has been regarding-- [inaudible] guest: thank you for the question care that was a horrible situation and i haven't read that book. i think it's very accurate from what the reviews i have read of it, important to understand that horrible corruption in murders that took place with the oil and gas and you know the violence at the base of that development in oklahoma. i tell you, even in a fairly small state like oklahoma which has i
think 96 counties, a very small state where i grew up canadian county which is west of oklahoma city, slightly northwest of oklahoma city and the county seat is lb now, this is the land of the planes people, the land where i grew up had been taken away from the southern cheyenne nation. they are still there, but with-- the land was allotted in the late 19th century so they have only very small travel headquarters, but the comanches, southern cheyenne are the people in the area i grew up. i never even went to tulsa or osage country or even knew it existed when i was growing up. it's very provincial in oklahoma by sections of the state, central
southeast, southwest, you know northeast and people don't get much out of their counties much less to you know several counties away, so i went to tulsa for the first time only since i moved to california. i finally visited tulsa seemed like beautiful cities and oklahoma city much more eastern kind of city that was settled by a lot of the entre nous are from the east so it's a very different place than where i grew up it was more southern, southern baptist and more like the south, so even though it's the planes it gets out into the planes, so i didn't know anything.
i've had no knowledge or lower from that time only what i have read and i have had several friends when they were writing their new constitution. i follow that closely because i have osage friend that was sent off writing it, but that is very recent-- sorry i cannot help you with any lower. .. on the banks of the missouri river.
of a woman. wheat dedicating to remind women they are powerful, they are awesome and they are the backbones of our nation. roxanne, this 52-foot image to me as an archetype for all indian women to uplift themselves, learn more about their current culture. learn more about their ceremony, learn more about their language. but most importantly, roxanne, is the image that we will use in south dakota to try and teach the white people and reminded them that it was not long ago, four centuries ago their ancestors came to america, to look for a better life.
we have so much a teachings we have to share their nonindigenous relatives who live on our land, to remind them that they too came from somewhere and that we are the owners of this great land that we are sharing it. roxanne, i'm just excited about this and i hope you know about it. and you can help promote so we can engage other native women other indigenous women to be proud of who they are. >> thank you for calling in. >> guest: thank you six celia, i did know about the ceremony. all over my friends on facebook i was just exciting to experience it. there is a lot of news now about missing and murdered
native women that is just catastrophic colonial issue that is related to reservations and being still under colonial control, federal control so they are not allowed to have a really a criminal investigation internally. it is light green lights flashing on the borders of reservations, it is a free here, rape any women you want. just come onto the reservation. it is a huge problem i think deborah hall and secretary of the interior, when she was a congressperson took this up as a major issue of native women. it's only now getting publicized because of the
murdered young woman from florida. and people started saying what about the black women, the native women, the mexican women who are disappearing or murdered. thank you for your lifelong work, cecelia and other women there in the dakotas that are pretty amazing. >> host: we have a texture from jonathan washington d.c. he identifies as muscogee creek. and he writes to you, we seem on the verge, may be in the middle of pop culture native renaissance. the resident dog show, five something states with vaccination and other social safety needs. deb haaland at interior. then he asks you if that is overstating it or not and what do you think?
>> guest: it's very exciting. i see the groundwork that has been set for that for decades building up. it is paying off as the hard work of the native people, native activists, the environmental activism, and students as native people have taken positions and universities and have a presence there and speak out, people are learning. there are then events like the standing rock standoff and uprising. that had been going on for six months before it was even
publicized. and did get a lot of tension around the world. i think also the campaign to do away with the washington teams slur and other ball teams at every level around the country this is being debated. place names big in the news, now in california with the renaming of squaw valley and lake tahoe. there are several towns named squaw valley in california that's now being debated in all over the country there are hundreds of towns that use the word squaw. i think there is one powerful thing about the native movement, it is at every grassroots level in the country there is something that can be done. you do not have to go to a
national march or whatever, you can really start a discussion for it okay our basketball team is called the indians is not really appropriate because there are no native people here in this basketball team or in the audience. i think that is the power of it is persistent work a part of native people and also people waking up with the black lives matter movement has an ally ship with the red nation one of the preeminent native activist organizations last summer the statues coming down of the confederates and others, you also saw columbus coming down. so i think we are beginning to have also a new rainbow coalition that is really
important and includes white people. the rainbow coalition by the way included white appalachian migrants to chicago. so it has to be all people working at this at the grassroots level. because the national level of politics, i think is going to take cultural and social change to change the politics. >> host: in her book all the real indians already died off which came out in 2016, roxanne dunbar ot's looks at the myths what she calls and myths about the indigenous population such as the u.s. did not have a policy of genocide against native americans, sports mascots honor native americans, most indians are on government welfare, indians are rich because they have casinos and indian or savage and warlike. any comments about some of
those myths? >> my co-author dena whitaker, really the two of us together we found it's in beacon press series of 21 myths there are several books about unions, they're bankrupting us and 20 other myths and about immigrants. they're taking our jobs in 20 other myths. this event was myths about native americans. it was a very, very to limit it to ten. we had to whittle it down from 100. only got to 100 we said we better start whittling down but we could have gone on. it is probably no more met the sized people in the united
states than native peoples. the problem is, people don't just say i am ignorant, i need to learn something, they think they already know things because there are so many myths they believe the north american continent was very sparsely populated by kind of roaming bands of people. and instead, the eastern part of what is now the united states, is one of the seven original sites of agrarian civilization. the others are the andy's, the nile, the euphrates, the po
river in china, all at the same time. so agriculture came. and so the idea there are so many myths of the idea of coming to a wilderness. there was no wilderness. native people were everywhere in every square inch. they had manicured for us, they lived with the land but they also adapted the land to them in ecological ways that we have to learn again if the earth is going to survive. so the myth of the savage, there is the positive myth of the ecological indian the perfect spiritual person and then the other side is the savage.
but neither are what any human being is. so there's also the idea that all indians are alike and there is some language called indian where there are as many languages as there are native people. so yes, the myths we finally came up with i think were important ones. i think people reading that book will sort of wince when they find oh that is what i thought, that is not true? [laughter] i mention the renaming of squaws, there were lots of letters to the editor and papers in california when they change squaw valley saying it was a complementary term that women like being called squaw.
this is kind of the ventriloquist think of what native people like and what they don't like it. maybe somewhere you could find one native woman think i have no problem with that. but it's seems like it's only with native people these myths are very hard to overcome with truth because there are so many of them and they are so jumbled together. that kind of makes a person feel, i always had to tell students when i was teaching native american history that they should not feel guilty about anything. there is no reason why they would have learned anything i'm going to be teaching them before because it is not in the textbooks, it was not in
the curriculum, how are they supposed to learn? now they can learn. it is very, very difficult i think to get over too large numbers of people. i think the wonderful thing about mass movements which i learned in being a part of one in the antiwar movement and that women's movement in the 60s issue learn very fast without necessarily books but with manifestoes, speeches, listening to people, it is an extraordinary moment. we had that last year. they don't always a last, those learning moments they are very important for advancing. i think what we are seeing is the backlash of these critical race theory and outlawing is
trying to reverse what people learned last year. but i think the cat is out of the bag with so many of these things that people want to learn more. we went about 50 minutes left with our guests this month. jim is in louisiana you're on the air. yes, professor dunbar, might question covers a subject i've not heard discussed yet this morning. during the second world war, there was i don't want to call them in internment or some sort of restriction of the japanese population on the west coast and i am sure it was a driven by the fear of invasion from japan and so forth.
but, i was wondering have you run across this subject in your studies and have you done any writing on it? >> there is a whole chapter in my new book not a nation of immigrants, it is called a yellow apparel but it includes fundamentally fear japanese, but usually we in the united states cannot tell one east asian from another, it spreads to this discrimination against japanese, southeast asians, everyone. but it goes way way back.
japanese farmers came in the late 19 also went to hawaii was a very poor country, so there were people needing to send a remitted to inspect just like poor people do now, go to rich countries in order to help their families back home and their communities. but the japanese, i do live in san francisco. and of course i have long known the detail about the internment because i taught ethnic studies and my colleague choline a chinese-american was instrumental with others in developing angel island were asians were really incarcerated before they could be let in or they were deported from their.
but the japanese-americans, most of them were japanese americans who were interned, they were citizens of the united states. by then in the early 18 -- 1940s, called truck farmers. they had small vegetable farms in the central valley. i think 90% of the lettuce came from japanese farms. so almost all of the vegetables and fruits raised in california at that time and got to the city they were trucked there called truck farmers because they truck them into the city and sold them to stores and also had open markets. so they were uprooted. it was pure racism, there's no getting around it. i documented in the book the
statements that were made about them, that they cannot be trusted. asians cannot be trusted they always expand asians cannot be trusted, they lie so if they say they are not supporting the fascist government in japan they are lying there probably lying. so just to be safe we need to walk them all up. so they rounded them up but they also took their lands, took their property and never returned it. they had reparations that were a token thing and only for the people who directly experienced. most of them are already passed away by the time it was done and their errors could not have it. he has not been properly dealt with yet.
the internment, the camps they were deported one was in california they were mostly in desert regions, and hide it, new mexico some were taken to fort in oklahoma. it was a horrible experience. there was a barbed wire around them and armed soldiers, just like a prison with towers and they were watched. it was a horrible period, a time and i have written about it. it was very important, it reminded people, native people of their own incarcerations. that was really the playbook the government was using mike
only 50 years before they were incarcerating native people. and also they were already citizens, they spoke english. but they try to assimilate them and away, change what they were teaching, teach them patriotism so kind of reeducation camps they made of these internment camps as well it was traumatic. >> before we run out of time we always ask our authors to share some of their favorite books. what they are reading now. here's roxanne dunbar list she sent us, nothing ever dies, vietnam and the memory of war. jodi byrd and empire and critiques of colonialism. mike, silencing the past power
and production of history, barbara ramsey o baker in the black freedom movement, nick estes our history is the future. david reynolds, john brown abolitionist, mike davis prisoners of the american dream and neither settler nor native. mr. and danny appears in some of your writing as well. what is his role in your life and in your work? >> i have long been a great admirer he is a professor at columbia university from uganda asian ugandan. he has published many books but he did an excellent book on sudan that everyone should read.
not understanding what was happening in the north and the south and all. but he started working on settler colonialism a decade or so ago with speeches and articles and then publish this book last year which is just brilliant. so, he had asked me to read the book i was on a panel discussing the book at columbia. i would become friends, we have not met in person. in his book he also is a neither native nor settler uses my indigenous peoples history of the united states as one of the references. the deals in the book with united states which is really unusual to deal with burton on u.s. people.
it's a real breakthrough in that sense because he is african, international and it brings u.s. settler colonialism to a much larger audience than before. but it also deals with apartheid south africa and palestine israel with colonialism. it is a really, really important book. >> host: we also want to show some of the books professor dunbar ortiz is currently reading they include katy, intimacies, david spee out at wayward, my island, immortality and samuel, let's even get another call in before time runs out, william is in a west of palm beach, florida hi william thanks for holding. >> caller: thank you. could you recommend a book
that describes northern louisiana and if you have time, comment on slavery before the state was that a factor in the independence from britain? >> repeat the last part? stuart william are you still with us? >> caller: britain freed the slaves before these states, did we see the writing on the wall if you will, and did that influence our succession from britain? >> host: thank you. >> guest: thank you for that question. i am sorry i do not know any sources for northern louisiana will definitely look them up. >> host: any general sense of what would you recommend people go if they want to read
about specific areas, is there a library or a site that you go to that's one of your go to sites? speech i think google is fine, all you have to do is history of northern louisiana you would start finding references , articles and all. but i did want to respond to was the possibility of britain ending not just the slave trade, but slavery. they had a huge antislavery movement in britain that wanted to do just that. and it definitely made the slavers in the colonies very nervous. i do believe, i gave what i thought was the main reason was the proclamation that limited expansion. but they wanted to expand it
was smelling the south that wanted to expand. they had worn out the land with commercial agriculture raising nonfood crops, cotton, indigo, tobacco. and to stay wealthy and to build the wealth of the british empire, they wanted to move into that rich land of the southeast where the five so-called civilized tribes of great agriculturists and take that land. i think that's the main reason. i think the other reason and i would recommend reading gerald to work on this, that definitely the fear of ending slavery was predominant. that the british public, i
think they were not so afraid of the monarchy would do it, but that revolution of the people in britain against slavery would win out and would just destroy the colonies. remember in the north, some had outlawed slavery already. but they were involved in the slave trade, most of the slave trade was based in the shipping like rhode island. in the ports on the atlantic coast in the northeast. everyone was compromised by slavery and had an interest in continuing it. so definitely i do think, i
also think keeping power in the southern states, the extra vote counted for the ownership of slaves to have two thirds rather than a one and two thirds voting capacity in the electoral college that was formed, is where things that would protect the southern states. and due to this day. >> host: professor going to have to leave it there we are out of time. very quickly roxanne dunbar ortiz book to memoirs red dirt growing up in oklahoma and then outlaw woman a memoir of the warriors and indigenous peoples history of the united states which won the american book award in 2015, all the real indians died off in 20 other myths about native americans, loaded and disarming history of the second amendment and her most recent book not a nation of
immigrants, settler colonialism, white supremacy and the history of erasure and n "in depth." >> guest: thank you, peter. .. book tv brings the latest, funding for cspan2 conservation television can be nice and more including comcast. >> this is way more than that. >> , podcast ticket wi-fi enabled students from low income families get the tools
they need to be ready for anything. ♪ ♪ >> comcast along these television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> book tv continues now television for serious readers. cooks my name is kirk hansen senior fellow at the center for applied ethics at santa clara university. a member of the commonwealth club silicon valley advisory board and your moderator for today. has a club continues to host virtual events we are grateful for the continued support of our members and donors. visit commonwealth club.org to learn more about membership or to support the club. right now, we are i text deductible gift by checking the blue donate button on your screen. it is my