the only at c-span you get it straight from the source. no matter where you are from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. ♪♪ unfiltered, word for word. if it happens here or here or here or anywhere that matters. america watching on c-span. powered by cable. >> some people say artificial intelligence is going to make the human race obsolete. a lot of people don't want to think about a.i. artificial intelligence,al it's an intimidating subject but the thing about a.i., even if you don't want to think about it, it's thinking about you. or is it? that will be the lesson discussed today on this episode of independent conversations. greetings everyone who has joined us.

we try to bring notable experts on a variety of topics to discuss topics of theay day givn the perspective you are not likely to hear elsewhere, today we are talking with george gilder. let me welcome george gilder to independent conversations. it's a pleasure to see you. i met george gilder first, i think it was deep in the winter of maybe january of 1982 in western new york, you recently published wealth and poverty like the year before. was it published in 1981? >> 1980. >> okay, 1980. i think president reagan read the book, did you hear that story? >> he wrote letters about it before publication, it was all

over the place. >> it was a fabulous book. your creativity and seeing what others did, so called capitalism when you analogized it to what was the exchange and the american tribes? >> there were a bunch of ways. >> it was simply give and share which was fascinating and you pointed out a lot ofut flak and what we call capitalism which doesn't pivot simply on self-interest but rather on something at least akin to benevolence, in eye-opener to me. thank you.

>> there is a lacerations, my technology books really spring from wealth and poverty which focused on creativity and economic growth. since then, i've been working on the information of economics. >> the term i was trying to think of a moment ago, i think you described it as potlatch. >> yes, the potlatch. >> that was really amazing. it helped mey because i was a college student after being a college student, i was having a lot of tough things with my peers, they thought socialism was the coolest thing that ever was and they usually portray capitalism distorted terms so

you gave me whole new vocabulary and i wasn grateful for that. >> thank you. >> people said you are an autonomous but then you are a sociologist because you wrote men and imagined others say you are a technologist in a futurist, what are you, george? >> a historian. [laughter] >> some people call me a futurist and i i don't know why. anyway, i played the role but -- >> but we are glad. >> a hierarchical universe and helpful to have that perspective that unifies all, it allows you

to transcend the analysis, everybody has their own special innovation. expression that exacerbate those. >> they really do your work has always been characterized by the integration raven fragmentation which makes sense, i think that must have been what driven you to discovering institute in seattle. they seem to have a synthetic understanding of science, is that right? >> that's what we try to do, we try to bring this together another part of biology, which is another part, they've

expounded on calls him november tenth through 12th. artificial intelligence. they are going to be crypto currencies and otherur such technological advance. an exciting time, when i lived in the they, it was china. i don't think war with china was. >> i agree with you on that. that could be less productive than a war with china. if viewers want information

about that, where should they go? >> causing thought technology. >> technology is the sussex? >> that's right. causing thought technology. >> you can go there to find out about the comfort going on, is it next month for november? >> november tenth through 12th. >> great. so in the meanwhile, you are releasing a brand-new book, i think the publication date is officially october 15, if i am not mistaken but here is the cover, gaming a.i., why a.i. can't think but can transform jobs. very nice and compelling cover. >> thank you. >> i also noticed if you want to go amazon, you can order it from a apparently they have some inn

stock. >> it has been out for a little while. >> that's why they have some in stock. let's talk about that, i got a copy and i was fascinated by the way take the standard challenge turn it in a direction people don't expect. the standard challenge, you mentioned earlier in the book some people think a.i. will be for sure a demotion of the human race and i think page 20 of the aubook, this quote caught my eye where youu quoted stephen hawkig who pronounced the development of artificial intelligence could spell and of the humanum race i. >> elon musk who is alive today says a.i. is more than just

nukes. a lot of people talk about this, this was predicted. he said that once we are in artificial intelligence, that will be the last invention will ever have to make because true artificial intelligence would be capable of machines that could outperform the original ciartificial intelligence.

>> and culminating in this so-called singularity, that's supposed to be where basically artificial intelligence takes up where we left off and says goodbye to us, right? >> that is what they were predicting. a lot of people have developed further. it was a very sophisticated way. >> i thought he was just silicon valley. >> no, it was a technology at google and developed a i that response to your e-mails.

responses that anticipate how you will respond. >> i noticed the responses were getting more courteous and specific, i suppose due to his development. >> that is the contribution, the whole scale contributions for technology over the decades. people have forgotten fundamental supposed in computer science that expounds. >> that is what is striking because you don't seem to be as much of a doomsday as some, if i have this right, you seem to think potential of a.i. may be oversold, even in overselling, the could be collateral damage and you're trying to avoid that, have i got that right? >> i think that is right. somehow a.i. completes with

human minds, the fundamental others. >> a lot of these technology creators came to their work having already absorbed idea the human mind is nothing more than a meat machine so if they quote unquote new that begin with,te it's not surprising conception of artificial intelligence could be this singular anything that transcends human mind because the human mind was never more than meet, electrons to begin with them they could surpass that but i think the history of technology as the human mind demonstrates it must be more than just me and electrons.

>> linkous through the development around the globe, connect homes, mapping all the connections of the global internet. and available internet a couple of years ago, database, barring connections from the global internet. >> remind me what a zettabyte is. >> 210. another imagination.

mit has been trying to map all the connections in a single human brain. it has been really difficult. >> how many does not take? >> that is thehe question, they start with a friend of mine, they developed dna codes, they imagine dna was a code and work out what the code would be. he's been mapping it for some 21 years with this content.

thanksgiving dinner last year, the more studies, the less they understand the brain but the folks at mit have taken the connection of the nematode worm and applied it to the brain of the human brain and their connections at all times and turnshe out to map all the connections in a human brain, it suggests a single human brain is

complexly connected as the old global internet is. but the global internet takes lots of energy, a data center takes, the dominant technology of the data center in the cooling system to take away the heat. >> i don't seem -- >> the same way the human brain functions with 12 to 14-watt, 98.6 degrees fahrenheit, i don't need extra cooling.

>> so i believe technologych functions expensive, they expand human capabilities attempting to compete in these capabilities and these capabilities, like t silicon valley revising their business plan, the contributors are going to fail. >> that's how they approach it, they will make them selves support of us. they seem to anticipate that if you proceed and business on the assumption your job is to make your own customers support of this, he will run'r out of thins to do if that is your business model, are you? >> i think that us -- to not

believe i think pick knowledge he is continuing to advance but i don't think it is advancing more rapidly than at the time of industrial revolution. i think an economist, there is a study, the amount you need, it shows the advance of lighting has been 100,000 times more

rapid than measured in the economic bottles. essentially economist, dark satanic mills. >> william blake. >> yes, the various energies, the incredible expansion of life, electricity and whatever it was but measured by the amount of time a worker had to spend two by the light to

illuminate a room, economic progress was 100,000 times more rapid than usual estimated. so during industrial revolution, we missed light and i think it missed a.i. revolution we are missing the target it measured by the number of hours it takes a worker to earn the money to purchase goods and services, this continues to be capitalism,

technological progress, fast as ever and improving the quality. poor people benefit more fromou expansion of hours to do other things than rich people already. technology advances that benefits the most and a.i. is the manifestation in the computer industry.

they anticipated the machines we have today and he was the first person to imagine more law that could produce thinking missions that operate at billions of cycles a second. >> let me step back a couple steps you said aut minute ago, t deserves extra attention. you commented a moment ago that technological economicno advance tends to have aen comparatively greater impact of benefit to the worse off because worse off have further to go up so the comparative improvement in their life the greater. that is intriguing but two years ago i wasas in east africa in uganda and traveling around

kampala and rural areas, it was striking to me the standard of living, much lower than the united states and i saw many people living in huts not having sufficient clothing and not having sufficient covering from the rain. people fairly struggling although there is a lot of economic activity and at the same time, every single person vesitting under every insufficiently corrugated tin roof on every little shop on every little by way or alleyway had a cell phone. every single person had a cell phone. >> smart phone. that means a supercomputer, the underestimation of the real standard of living.

identifying key industrial evolution in, it's another form of expansion of light. >> i notice uganda roads were still pretty bad, i realize everybody in kampala can now talk to their grandma or great grandmaa in the backcountry anytime they want to because everyone has a cell phone and they are using smartphones as an exchange, greatly simplifying monetary transactions. it was quite stunning, honestly. then proud to be a northern california. >> what's beaux-arts, a lot of places the middle class has suffered. as a result of stagnation,

technology or whatever is in the moment, the inequality expanded, once you score $1000, that takes care of all of your essential needs and you live better than a king you have that smart phone and access radical care and axis to a whole civilization that manifests. rich people in so-called wealth

is invested, if they liquidated it, it disappears. capitalism will only keep what you give away. invested it is working, providing jobs and opportunities for others value and ultimately disappear. so it's really a fundamental principle of capitalism. the creativity in uganda and we have a number of people on with us, george simultaneously although we may also share this

but one participant sent a note in commenting an organization or company called solaris technology in san jose is a good example of the kind of thing you're talking about. solaris technology, do you know that by chance? >> i have heard of it. a more formidable accomplishment, it is the integration of a.i. capabilities

does. >> something good, apparently. >> up we are going to talk about it, tell us which company that is. >> i'm watching the comments box, we'll see but one o of the great arguments in the book gaming i i, those in the high-tech industries who are obsessed maybe work captivated maybe it's a nicer word with the idea of moving toward singularity where creative intelligencece surpasses human mind and so forth and makes human mind obsolete, they seem to argue to have forgotten the history of their own industry. >> that's right. >> can you tell me about that in a way i as a layman can understand? how is the development of tech industry itself was reading

your.about the need for creativity of the human mind? can you tell me something about that? >> a great figure who imagined you could make mathematics completely self-sufficient. ... >> and, as a matter of science in a data from 1941, heavily,

they introduced a paper which showed the natural routine they could not prove this in itself. >> surveys could not be fully self-contained system. >> in my judgment, the greatest man who would preserve this in the live in a couple of centuries added it included a from this, they really did and understood the not only saw that this meant this would also be necessarily depended upon the programmers or oracles is a had

divided. and when they had asked voluntarily and involuntarily if they would computerize this, that currently dominant that was said they would until about the oracles, and so on the way, the computerno architecture the monh muscle the systems that in oracle system originated was processors and graphics and these oversized data centers and it was also invented by norman

and so. [inaudible]. this would by norman. we understood the artificial intelligence with these minds and the expression of the human mind, expanded into the world. >> and actually is an extensiona nonreplacement and what you said a moment ago,ly and really is a way of capturing it and someone made the point that all this developed machine intelligence, would have to have a human mind as if it were in oracle, who said this. [inaudible]. >> so is a very metaphoric is it means that is pretty simple but

we are human minds, to the machine intelligence, with the oracle vilify was thought to be to a man of antiquity, this knowledge mysteriously outside of the realm so you enter the oracle and you know it probably was a bunch of who he but nonetheless, they went there and somewhat of a receiving insight which they could not possibly get them inside of the human minds of theey human mind and tn is the artificial intelligence is to the oracle of the day but the fascinating metaphor. >> and allll of this can only be that way, is an extension and charles sanders, the proposition that all information is try a

break, he cannot it be by an area because of its by an area which the seminal systems and there is no necessary connection between symbols and an index is said - of the world and assemble system is the animated winds in a conscious human frame. >> is sort of like two dimensions were versus three dimensions. >> that is right. >> is a binary triadic a. >> exactly, and you have a flat society prevailing add binary symbolism charlie rose and a lot

better than us because in the seminal systems and so they just black and gold and white and gold in this stones and no stones are symbols. in the computer can move by is self millions off times faster and obviously they can play gold better than a human just as they can - >> your point is that i think amanda is course are going to be superseded by a threshing machine add but that does not mean that the machine is more sophisticated than the man that is right. >> also you say, early on in the book you repeat this in places yocoming up to the two basic pls about thisha notion of so her

supremacy of artificial intelligence, he said defeating and so you giving us this down part that affiant and find it reassuring to learn you and your book and other sources, that the human mind actually is more complex than maybe the entire world maybe i'm glad to know that there's evidence of my mind that it is more than just a meat machine with some electrons posing through it and this reassuring so maybe it's dumb but, could this view george, this view ofin artificial intelligence, rising to the supremacy over everythinghi coud be self-defeating. i get that it is mistaken but how could be self-defeating in hooking to undermine we think about it way these guys are thinking about it. >> because it they really try to convince their customers and

give them compliments on this computer technology that it's creating an expression of them. and they have counterfactual projection add that to imagine a, not only the programs, that's right. the, will everybody that was invented machine and used a mainframe another computerr andi don't know but the idea that an

actual ability machine learning in artificial intelligence, what excel all human - and that is assemble or once you have the inputs into the machine, and it's been characterized correctly, then an algorithm can function as billions of cycles per second and produce an answer. but much of the intelligence is that mediation in the real world and the symbols that express it within the machine and we are

now under the illusion of this climate computer and around the book about this. >> was a title of this. >> is called microcosm and those published in 1990 i think, 1989 and microcosm was a economics and in technology and of course the semi conductor industry, micro chasms are described in history had from the inside, in accordance with quantum principles. and so all technology, all computer technology is based on condo reports on physics and the

micro chasms and the pico chasm and more. and the problem is connecting the systems to the whole world, with quantum with the goal of quantum computer days, is abandoning the binary billion logics that salvation of computers and the use cuba which really complex and analogical system, and between the analog computer was displaced by

digital computing. and was a pastor, and comparing it did not caused it within the real world. because analog computing, and the model of the world, and have a detailed mapping of the real territoriesur and textures of te actual existence of the computer. and so these quantum computers but it imposes the whole burden of the human mind and the problem that's removed from the

symbol and analyze was complex and the quantum uncertainties and copperheads and the cats in the crown royal. >> so seems to me, human minds cannot sort of set up the systems which can then maybe run artificiallyal better but with that closed system can do is imagine and create systems that are outside of the closed system in the human mind seems to be able to radically transcend close systems and introduce new angles and this would rights and powers creativity and if those people in charge of the industries - the creativity,

then they end up putting out an enterprise on the road to wealth at least plus creativity. >> well stated. [laughter] think out the creativity always comes as a surprise to us. >> i hope that your colleagues in the industry in silicon valley which is not far from where we are here the independent is a dude, on the other side of san francisco bay and i hope that they pay attention to you because if not, are right, it might be that they will be overtaken in creativity because they'll be deprecating the very qualities that make the business work which seems like that would be a terrible shame they should pay attention to george gilder pretty. >> it will they compare to the

history to the>> own and pay attention to the whole universe thatat human minds is a productf random fluctuations by molecules to begin with in the human mind is a product of random evolutionary courses that simplifies them and it makes them think that they can duplicate their lives but the mind is almost sensitively more complex than the machine.

>> into those of us who don't understandt it, but the friends of the creative technological enterprise, and we would encourage you are colleagues in creativity not to underestimate their own minds. there minds are nothing but a st of random setet of mechanics so this is g your immediate prior - that i highly recommend it is related to this new book, "gaming ai," and i will take you somewhere unexpected i think and probably because i'm looking at some of these messages coming from our viewers right now so following on what i just said, about you know, what you said about the effects of this belief really, the space that maybe

just accidental material mechanical and physical and he said that the mind of the simplest is still the complexity, it's kind of hard to say that there is no god so that's with the citizens andc d i think that's a good point but even to the point is a little different from that which is this, we try to well as i was reading yourif book, this thougt really struck me which is that out there is always and has been in each of us something, of detention otherwise opposition in between a mindset which is empirical in nature and another that is spiritual and pious in nature and so that's what i thank you so where the religion and the science and knows well but something to that but what i am seeing right now based upon your analysis is that a new spiritual or devotional attitude about the singularity which may it self proved to be a new

opposition of science and religion the religion now being the similarity which is getting in the way of actually science and data the creativity and so this is a replay and really unexpected form of an old opposition or is it and i'm thinking it is a replay of a very old opposition for the roles are reversed because they'ree all gaga and power of i andow similarity and they're so cleaned it to their faith position that they seemos to cle off their ability of the other data in bringing the other data hannah near the scientists. >> one of the inventors of virtual reality, and another good book on the subject, and it said that it makes you stupid.

>> that is very intriguing is that okay another comment from one of our viewers that's on with us right now. and this person jennifer said is there something about ai this military implication in the drone technology and the ability to selected targetschab without human interaction for one example and just a comment on ai and military. >> i know that computer in the military, the computer systems, and the manhattan project model that on the computer systems, where the environment that really emerged was part of the men had an project.

i make the crucial observation that when you're building the technology, and responded to the reality because it cannot be fooled and the reality is, that the machine learning systems they do not think that all in the idea that these machines are thinking it that's a religious belief in a particular religion. [inaudible]. >> will that was my point so that religious part actual means that the national security danger and deploying artificial intelligence on the assumption that it can offer it.

>> that would certainly be true and i don't think they're quite doing that but there are advancing drones to quickly and they probably are contrary to the capabilities. >> and one of them didn't work that way they thought it would work and that was kind of disturbing. >> will here's another one and the one with seven children for them from the military group. >> will that is disturbing and moreover,. >> will and not debunking ai come i think ai is great in the evolution of this group is no threat to the human beings and the idea that it is comparable

to the nukes, elon musk describes it as through only through nukes being deployed by the human mind is that ai, is deploying the nukes in the human mind and the order and civilization that keeps us alive. if you can imagine that are all civilization is a product of random mutations of chemistry and physics, i think that's a universe theory that this

philosophy. >> you spoke a minute ago of the derailed drone strike in kabul, a family with children and he said it was not able to distinguish okay but you know it is striking to me about that example is that if the drones were made more sophisticated by the human creators, they might be able to make such distinctions or approximated them better for the problem is what if they creators of the drone artificial intelligence themselves, do not think of the human beings are anything special don't necessary and don't necessarily believe there's something special about mothers and children are they don't believe it, then there's's the once creating itt to run the dronese .

>> with the order in creativity and our creator, and that is the foundation of progress and crippled by our conception for somehow inadequately . [inaudible]. >> that the understanding is our creativity is that we have the modern day of the creator of god is not as simply how people think about creativity and progress but actually. >> i drew it on that opposition. >> i'm thinking that's great book called the savior of science in 1960s which made

that point before all of this began before have an and we have another interesting commented in one of our participants has actually friend of mine, and i think that shehe wrote in saying canwr moral or ethical is a program into a. >> ai has consciousness in the potential alley for aci conscio, and it's a program and you can program this if you want and so the answer, is yes, but it's not as if you're programming a moral conscience with the programming

that of constraints. [inaudible]. >> is another question that maybe i should post to you in your last, someone named jacob has originated during this broadcast saying that ig would like george to provideo insighs into the future of the world will look like if engineers, and also in 30 years so george gilder, futurist. >> i expected nomination of a theory of information forward which prohibits anticipating the future that the future of sensitivity and as was declared,

creativity always comes with a surprise to it and with the economics and deterministic can create a new future and differentiates our age from the stone age is not a steady refinement of stones, it's in advance of knowledge, and growth of learning is all constrained by thege passage of time which s what remains of still when all else goes abundant and so the

future unless it's quick just going to be more of the same, in other words, the generation that's got to surprise us and i believe that in 30 years, going to live in a world that will be almost incomprehensible in some ways and from the world that we live in today and go beyond and produced in the intelligent machines and it will depend on new carbon age that just as our brains consistns of carbon and o will our intelligence machines ofma the future can take various forms of carbon in their already

going through this in the form of carbon and adapting the devices and other new hybrid material that can simulate intelligenceig better than binay machines of today and so i think our motherof lives are going toe >> is an carbon more plentiful element. >> no, but it's more the silicone is great because it's one of thehe three most common elements which is more than the intel founder, providential but silly can an aluminum and oxygen

are the three most common substances and but there is carbon out there, in order to create carbonate machines and i believe that the new sub new intelligent machines will be carbon -based. >> at the end of the book, and you say these interesting words and will stop here, you say an explosion of productivity does not mean an evaporation of work and ai will make people more productive it and thus more employable it will create a new and safer and more pressing work, and i will generated the capitol of endemic companies and adventures asan these new technologieslo have done through

history but with that one will not do his creative mind, three cheers for the human mind and what it us about the universe i think you george gilder and so grateful for taking time and thank you for writing your book "gaming ai," in thean early wer, life after google which i recommend, and thank you for the institute and we are so grateful for that. >> i'm on your advisory board. >> absolutely, you been incredible for the development of this place another creative places. >> we refer to our friends up in seattle and again, thank you george gilder and thank you everybody who joined us for today's and of any conversation from the independent institute, aaron oakland, california and every day i'm please us again thank you george and bye-bye. >> thank you. >> cspan now as a free mobile app featuring your unfilled review of what is happening in washington, why that on-demand

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