also for president, so that was very helpful to me. >> using material from the biography series first lady. >> i am very much the kind of person who believes you showed to say what you mean and mean what you say and take the consequences. >> the online video library will feature first lady lady bird johnson, betty ford, rosalynn carter, nancy reagan, hillary clinton, laura bush, michelle obama. watch in their own words saturday at 2 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span2 or listen as a podcast on the free mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. >> good evening everyone. i'm the executive director of

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the book. please use the link in the chat below to t pick yours up at thid place books, one of our many terrific independent and local booksellers. giving her career to pioneer in the second oldest english languagend newspaper, the 20 yer career, twice in one sentence my bad, reporting on medicine and science including the reporting about the basements to covid-19. she's written for the atlantic, the la times at the health and science center and for the t british medical journal. the recipient of numerous awards and fellowships including the nieman fellowship from harvard, studying the impact of behavioral economics on antibiotic use and international health media fellowship, journalism from oxford and the national press foundation. amber payne as co-editor-in-chief of the emancipator at "boston globe" media. fellow that serves on bet.com

and executive producer of teen vogue. the new book how tuberculosis d shaped history is the subject of the discussion this evening. please join me inr welcoming amber payne. >> thank you so much for the introduction and it's great to see you again. i had a slightly unmistakable connection. we will see how this goes and when in doubt i'm going to start reading chapter one. if we have technical difficulties. but we got to know each other. you were always talking about tuberculosis andor we knew that

you were working on the book. we didn't really get the full scope and through the year as we go to know them and you more about your background as a journalist and healthy and science and reporter, investigative reporter, it started to come together. i read your book and it's incredible. can you set the scene for those who don't know you what led you to thiss deep dive, this definitive social history of tuberculosis? >> i'm spamming everyone i know. i've been obsessed with this, which i have to write a biography about.

it's been in my head for like a decade and the fact i can just never stop talking about it. i am glad that i try to put as much in the book and i kind of see [inaudible] >> let's talk about dracula and whatou it has to do with tuberculosis. this would be a good time for you to read a passage in the book to set the scene for everybody. >> thank you.

i'm going to read a portion that sets the scene for what people do to comprehend things and i'm going to dive right in. it's no coincidence [inaudible] it's also notot by chance [inaudible]

sentiment associated with of the forms. [inaudible] in the 1819 story it is credited with something when he was

[inaudible] are doctors as well as experts. they are on a mission to it destroy. it is essentially a collection of medical anxiety at a time when outbreaks were ravaging the doors of t the colonizers. the most devastating example from the middle east and eastern

africa this was the first of several pandemics during the 19th and 20th century. [inaudible] it came from the east as was customary. it captured and showed the infections. >> you definitely start with of this origin story of dracula which i thought was brilliant to

make this clear connection between the hysteria and the terror. the length we've gone to find a cure you give me some sympathy for dracula. he seemed a little misunderstood. can you talk about that era of medical discovery and how the framework is still a cultural touch plaintiff that expands to seven days. >> to understand something we cannot understand combining that

it is a twilight zone. we need to rollback.

it is a gift people value. that is what this book does and i hope the reader finds it interesting. k >> definitely. you traced the spread from the u.s. and europe in the 19th century to developing countries flourishing today. but to givedo a brief rundown ad how didat mom by become the incubator in such a disease?

>> they couldn't access care. all of the points that contribute to spreading it people think it's a disease of the poor and the past but neither of those things are correct. people think it is a disease of one organ, the lungs. but it's like cancer. it used to be curable but then

it's misused especially in the pandemic. i feel like [inaudible] >> you talk about the story of a fewe' women. there is either a lack of treatment, the wrong treatment. i learned about these resistant forms of tb. the question is how is that still happening but i want to reference something in chapter five called antibiotic apocalypse on the move and you're talking with these doctors, listening to them talk

about antibiotic resistance it's like hearing characters in a horrored movie when they navigae options. one dr. joked about being at that point in the film when you realize a call is coming from inside of your own house. for now.

we are back again at a point of history. misusing medicines and not understanding but also india, like the u.s. again, the doctors are not incentivized in the best treatment. they are incentivized to the treatment to ensure doctors incentivize. you are treated without dignity.

the doctor is completely going mad. he captured it in a very visual way. >> definitely. it's an important point that you make that it's not just mathematical negligence it doesn't discriminate between i e rich and the poor. you draw parallels even between castmi and race and between

systematic discrimination in the east and the west so i wanted to talk a little bit more about that and how others have fueled by deliberate architecture of the fairness. it is documented in detail for the minority communities in the neighborhoods and housing projects in chicago to make the comparison. also i find myself in this

twilight zone. you see the different systems of discrimination it's easily identifiable. it's so much more. the way they look in the neighborhoods in mumbai. but it also leads to more crime and we are also talking about neighborhoods.

i feel like it then comes down to the same point. it has the same impact on the minority communities and any time they are made to lose dignity. i also talk about the tuskegee

trials when the population was acdenied because you can't talk about it without the race and gender.i >> i feel like i learned a lot. we know it and we've heard about it. i was interested in how that fit into your exploration and you also went into hiv and that struggle across the board and you drew these parallels in history that i think are important and relatable for all audiences. but going back to the drugs, to squash this global health

epidemic, start with tb. there are other issues. what did you learn, can you give an example of something that you felt was important to dive into in the book, and i want to get to the question of how do we reform the drug industry. but let's talk about these drugs and the issue. it's manufactured at a cost for example they outsource for a fraction ofgs the cost.

[inaudible] theyec are the same and with cod technologies having the same accommodation. they are anna forrest. not invited to the negotiating table and we cannot talk about

calling into question the modality that guides it like this isn't a cost-effective intervention. my country is a low resource country. r we don't have a robust health system. they decided to have a conversation to help. [inaudible] essentially underlining this is they don't save black and brown people unless it is profitable for them.

>> it is racist and there is no way of beating around the bush so one of the things the book does -- to the black and brown nations. that's not being done before and the same thing applied before the pandemic began. it's been fascinating to watch that. >> it's prophetic because you draw this between colonialism

and patents of the pharmaceutical drugs and technology so i wanted you to sketchch that out for us. >> this came from the quality of drugs and black and brown nations which is why i think the book gives me the skills to dive into the story and intellectual property law which began in 1883

and what we see india again as the crown jewel before most we had 1 one in 1856 and all of ths comes from [inaudible] export it but can never demand equality [inaudible] to roll the dice in favor.

they ruled in favor of multinational corporations and the property historically has been to promote. it reduced. it isn't ac coincidence from the black and brown nations.

in my country -- >> we will start to take audience questions. please feel free to submit questions. i do need to ask about bill gates and the gates foundation, huge nonprofit. they've given 60 millionn in grants since they began last year alone they funded. they are revered in the space of equity research development funding. but to quote you, you write bill has the morals of a genius and a

fog. >> the largest for the foundation. what he did was oxford university funded and handed it to a new company. it doesn't take a genius to apoint out the supply and i dot know ifon you remember six monts

ago all of this is because one of the monopolies and how they keep talking about the countries when the direct way is to transfer technologies and manufacture. that is the crux of the gates foundation underpinning of

making healthcare available and again it comes from the view of the developing world. i do see that the rest is incapable of looking at the world. we keep coming back to the charity to the principleip of justice. the companies are turning and the gates foundation what they get is this superiority.

ites also hires companies on the board and there's too much interest elected in public office. >> thank you for breaking that down. you have this example of an hiv drug that was going to be given for free. can you share some of that moment and how that proved to be a watershed moment for hiv drug pricing?

>> they were priced at ten to $15,000. whatat happens is it is subsidid by the universities. the molecule is acquired by a pharma company and the social rule of medicine thinking about this turning profits -- what

happens [inaudible] it was the watershed moment and they had to readjust. this is around the same time to make sure something like this never happens.

they called him a thief for aimaking it available and wheren the article someone in the global south [inaudible] i talk about people who died from hiv to convince someone to think in the developed world it doesn't even cost money. >> that is a great point. we are going to go into some of

the questions innd the chat. there's one question here. we've been so aware of the disparity between rich and poor nations. are there a lot of other vaccines that this is the same problem before but we haven't acknowledged it? >> absolutely. cancer drugs is a big problem and a t genuine example for thoe that are desperately needed and when they become available it is just more expensive than gold.

we see the same things, taxpayer funded drugs. it keeps coming back someone like bernie sanders the conversations it is global because what we have are very few pharmaceutical companies all of which are based in the u.s. or uk or japan. also stop having this conversation as a global one. we cannot force the system to

account and we cannot have drugs regulated. >> our next question going back to the discussion are you suggesting the who and global health would be better off oewithout bill gates financial contribution? what is anyone else is doing that is making a tangible difference? >> this is a complicated question but if i have to say it would be better without philanthropy.

this is an example that there are global health with this one the countries can put together the money and thenes give it to countries so they can then manufacture drugs and contain infectious diseases. they are not ready to sell the package. what they see is one molecule that came before us. with who again.

for the scientific organizations it comes as the cost of black and brown and these are the reasons why we have many challenges from climate change. we have to stop making hills out

of [inaudible] none of them have found structural solutions because that means they have to continue in the countries and the biggest example of this we carry trauma from that as a question to ask. it isn't the solution to the problems. >> okay. thank you for that question. here is another question. you have been brainstorming the book for years.

i wish i had an answer. reporting on the book as a news story i write about one who had to go to court and that kind of shook me. ..

. >> and then with the book and then i had a book in a friend made me write a book proposal which i did very urgently. but how has the book change me? i feel the one thing that i learned because in the us we need more black and brown and i realize but then when i spend time in the us with the

black and brown communities and then if we try to help and then to help deliver that qmessage. >> thank you for that. so what is the biggest myth that people areri traumatized and then to have nightmares and then in the book and then to focus and she has tv in her

ankle down and that is my reason not in the realm because people feel like it is like cancer. were to feel it is as toxic as cancer. >> . >> i'm a nursing student which department office person do i contact to contribute to global health i'm so frustrated because so many clinics in my hometown throw away expired doses of vaccines. >> yes. yesterday it was reading with millions of vaccines and and i

believe again i do not know the structure with us or canada as much but i am as psychologist by training and in the public contacting your local representative and it is desperately needed and it boils my blood when i have lost so many friends and family members who would have lived if we just learn to share with each other and i do believe the solution is political.

>> connecting to covid i wondered if you could talk about how that has turned tv into a bigger threat can be done about that? >> with the highest but the neck and to my friends house and then withea their families and it has been heartbreaking in getting e-mails from tb patients to say i am terrified i will in fact my mother and

in those systems so i feel the next couple of years with the optic mortality that i do believe something like nhs and i am optimistic that yet covid is overflowing with funds. and those diseases have never had that kind of protection they can also be used with tb and in what is and then to

have those opportunistic infection but then i'm open to change. and that's right never been before the very loud and vulnerable conversation anti- vaccinate or's. >> i did not expect you to say that. [laughter] >> .

>> that that is real. that is realistic. we have time for one more so if anything if you have anything please get it in there with the reviews of your book india versus the us parties are picking up on certain things. >> i am very nervous about it and what you read that became the book is a compilation of stories i was not allowed in the newspapers. so i t remain on average and then the reaction in the us and i know my american friends

and journalists get very frustrated with the growing intolerance of the us. but also about the us and india. and and i do hope this is why we expect more from the us because we believe and have such critical commentary and i glad that i have the privilege to juggle in the space.

>> at countdown to april. >> . >> and it was inspired by the civil rights movement in the united states. >> i am a geek. because doctor king was inspired by gandhi. within inspired me and then in

1972 and that was inspired which is why i believe and the need for black and brown solidarity but it is such a beautiful relationship between the east and the west and i was very happy to include it because of the apartheid in india entirely in keeping with those issues and jim crow with apartheid in south africa. and then we talked about race

and how it impacts that never in conversation of access to health. >> and the journey that we go through the book. and you did touch on that really what do you hope is the take away from your book? >> really it ends with a very strong protocol with those

properties and to negotiate as such and i am not just controlling the diseases for black and brown countries so i do hope if there is one and take away or two takeaways i would like for the toxic to be used because they are not available. governments are listening and they are toxic that you have a conversation that is more realistic and then to be too

emotional it's not an easy conversation to have that we need to have it now. >> thank you so much that is a pleasure and an honor to talk to you about your book especially since you and i and other made a trip to mercy brown's grave. do you want to explain who that is correct. >> the inspiration and remains buried in chestnut hill cemetery in rhode island. i'm lucky to have friends and family from when i was in boston. and i you pick up the book.

does have a lot in it. >> it does. get your copy. thank you so much. >> thank you for leading this conversation is so nice to have you here and with your beautiful location thank you for educating us on your beautiful book and i'm so excited for your launch in india. i know it will be great. >> thank you so much it is such a pleasure.