i'd like to welcome you and thank you for joining us tonight. it is 23 hours and in just about 30 minutesic from kickoff of sur bowl lvi in inglewood

california. a funny thing on the road up to what's and with the biggest most analyzed and hyped game on the planet, actually not so funny at the thing the deluge to this point with stories about the wonderful bengals quarterback or the pressure he's likely to get froms the rams one of the best defensive fronts in the nfl. the dominant headlines have been off the field and they aren't gushing. the nfl has a racial equity problem. the class-action lawsuit filed last week against three of its teams. he was fired as the miami dolphins coach after back-to-back with winning

seasons and a fair shot in any of the other eight head-coaching jobs in the last few weeks. there wereme promises made. nothing has changed. because nfl quote in certain ways segregated and managed much like a plantation. the commissioner roger goodell of metz there's a problem saying it needs to add diversity to its head-coaching ranks and indeed been members respond. in a week which 70% of the players are black or other minorities the head coaches a total of five are minority. john feinstein one of those sports journalist in the country is -- his latest book "raise a

fist, take a knee" race and the illusion of progress in modern sports came out in november. it lays out a decidedly record of success that spirits not just the nfl. major league baseball and college footballnd and basketba. it lays out the mixed record of success of sports not just nfl. major league baseball and other pro-sports have had in promoting especially in achieving racial equity. baseball 30 teams to black managers running a team baseball operations. football's top division the one in which alabama and ohio state in missouri and kansas play 130 programs in which 60% of players

were black this past season. well more than 80% of the coaches were in the same for the people who hired them. more than 81% of the athletic directors at those schools were and are . of course there's pushback against players who might fear to take a stand and we saw that six years ago when more than two dozen football players at the university of missouri threatened to sit out over the schools and the university system's handling of racist incidentsm on campus. their coach supported them and many others did not. andt lebron james told to shut p and dribble and colin kaepernick is out. john who i am fortunate to call a friend and a former colleague to talk aboutight his book and about the fact that it issues racial discrimination

and inequity -- they haven't in the past and they still don'toh now. joining john and the conversation is j.a. anande another friend at northwestern's renowned mcgill school of media and marketing communications. when i first talked to john a while back about the program revolving around his book the first thing he said was this is the most important book i've written which for john is saying something. the season on the brink and a good walk spoiled. john is a long-time writer and columnist for the "washington post" and is has contributed to many other national outlets both broadcast and a member of five

halls of fame including the national sportswriters and sportscasters hallll of fame and thus a more real hall of fame thatnd when the curt dowdy work. j.a. anande is also an accomplished for journalists including 10 years as it columnist for "the los angeles times" and a writer at the "washington post" and "chicago sun-times." you may recognize jay from his more than 1000 appearances on espn's roundtable discussion show. if you have a question over the course of the discussion we hope you do you can submit it by the youtube live chat box and we will get as many answered as we can at the end of the presentation. john and jay it's great to see you again and it's great to have you here in thanks so much for joining us.

>> thankto you. we like to tell the stories down the field and beyond the ring and look atac the interaction of sports and society. john is certainly taken on that challenge most specifically in this book and all the multitude of books that everyone has the same thing which is an idea so what was the idea of the motivation behind this book at the time? >> first of all thanks for doing this with me. we are both grateful to steve for reaching out to us. my history with sports really goes back to when i was in college. i grew up in new york city. i played ball all the time with kids, black kids and kids and you experienced it in a country

too.at it mattered what race you were and what your background was. when i got to duke it was a lot different. politically in every possible way. my junior year to play to put all game and duke back then as now was filed into football for the local paper i was starting to do some stringing work for asthem as anon staffer and they asked me to cover the football grahams which i was thrilled. they paid 50 bucks. money.s huge duke rallied in the second half to win the game when they brought in a quarterback named mike dunn and i read about mike dunn and i wrote a sidebar on how they recruited him and he turned out to be very good college player. i was happy with myself.

i picked up the paper the next morning into the could the by lining when i got this part in the lead. said duke black freshman quarterback. i was like what? said black linebackers and wide receivers. dunn was the firstte quarterback in duke since 1975. i called the editor who edited the story and they said what he doing here? what difference does it make what color he is and he said johnhn is the first quarterbacke have ever had and that's part of the story. the funny thing was when i was working on this book and i was talking to doug williams the first black quarterback to ever win the super bowl i go way back with doug and i told him that story and he laughed at me.

of course they were going to put that into the story. >> what was the first experience dealing with the fact that race is always there in one form or another? in 2010 there wereen other incidents with black athletes in black coaches through the years but it's 2010 donovan met knapp came to play quarterback here in washington. the game in the season against the detroit lions washington fell behind 30-25 and they took the kick off and rex grossman with a chicago background you probably remember he had taken a snap all season.

ndamukong suh kick the ball and game over. what made you change quarterbacks and he said i had a gut feeling about rex. ndamukong suh wasn't habit a great game which he wasn't. this is an 11th hear nfl quarterback and he didn't know the two-minute offense? that answer didn't sit well with a lot of the media so the next day he said i didn't know if he was s in shape to run back-to-bk plays. so washington was off the next weekend with the bye week. and chris mortensen who you know well and who i know well who was on espn that weekend and the shanahan's according to sources that were anonymous according to

sources shanahan cut their playbook in half. thisow guy who's been in the sur bowl in a pro-quarterback and i think the eagles had made the playoffs seven times in his 10 years there and now in a week he had been called out of shape, not prepared and finally anonymously by a coach and we knew it came from shanahan stashed so the next day i went on a tv show that i think you are on this year's "washington post" life. i attacked mike shanahan. this goes back to the 60s and 70s when people claim that blacks weren't smart enough to play in the quarterback position. the most fascinating was how i was attacked in the washington media but also the national league. i was accused of playing the race card which is what happens

often when you bring up race as an issue. when i bring up race as an issue people say why are you making race an issue and i say because it is anan issue. the anthem protest when colin kaepernick l was blocked all tht the league. most of the nfl was quoting sources in saying oh no he just -- he was 29 years old and he had in the starting quarterback for the 49'ers for the last 11 games and all of a sudden he's not good enough to be one of the top 64 quarterbacks in the league? they reported it and during the anthem protest after donald trump's rant whenever players were kneeling most of them black i. thought wow we are really

polarized in this country racially and they went to see john thompson who i had known since i 1 got to the post come excuse me when he was in the middle of his career inht georg. we fought for most of that time. >> legendary fights. >> when i was enough to offer to go outside with him. which would not have worked out well for me. fortunately he laughed at me and refuse the offer. he had become a mentor in many ways after that because he was so smart. ni said to him i want to do a look on race and sports. i don't know where to start. and he said you might as well try to explain the trinity and he pointed a finger at me and said which is why you have to do it.

the next year i found a way in whichon was lamar jackson who is you remember when he came out of college was told to become the wiker slager -- a wide receiver your skills are right for quarterback.. josh allen have become a star in baker mayfield okay and sam darnold with the jets and the carolina panthers. jackson went with the last pick in the first round and not once have we the first black general manager. we all know what is come to pass. the unanimous mvp in the league when he got hurt this year they never won another game.

he isne at one of the 45 best quarterbacks in the nfl and the scouts the pundits on tv bill polian and not picking on him but he happens to be a hall-of-famer thought he shouldn't be awarded that. grant parkinson was very fast. no one ever suggested they change positions. if lamar jackson was the exact same player he was no one would have suggested a different position. >> i want to go back to the story told about -- i'm wondering what you learned about in your more recent conversation with doug williams about that about how in some cases black

people want race to be included and it's not a sidebar when lamar jackson was the mvp and the racial component that was patrick mahomes was a super bowl mvp in the racial component to that is significant. how did you become aware of that and how did you incorporate that in your writing? >> it's funny because obviously i talked to my son after that happened. we were fellow students and i apologize to him. and he said don't worry about it i understand. he's a very bright guy and you make a good point that the first timeme i met doug williams was n tampa. i apologize to him because we were about a year late and i mean we being the "washington post." he was in his second year by the

time george solomon sent me down to write a story about him and by then the bucs had gotten good and made the playoffs in the championship game. when i sat down with him i said i'm really sorry for making you answer all these questions and he looked at me john i've been a black quarterback all my life so fire away and don't worry about it.fe when you reference guilt sometimes i had some of that but it's for a good reason. there are reasons for us to feel guilty aboutty the way blacks hd been treated in this country for 400 plus years now but also in sports and the florida state college basketball coach who grew up with jim crow said look for any of us to say progress has been made is. i grew up with only water

fountains and having to sit in the balcony the movies and dealing without her out my boyhood and obviously it's totally different now. he said that there are people many of them who voted for donald trump a little more than your go who wanted to because their voting rights laws of them some of them are basically being revealed, it's okay. we don't have to worry about race anymore. and that's just not true as we all know. and the fact that he mentioned -- it's 2022. it'll be 75 years is jackie were up and made his debut in brooklyn, april. we are still in dealing with some of the same stuff jay. you know that. you live with it every day to

>> it peaked in the 70s and the mid-80s. >> it was down to 6% and out popped up to 8%. >> i was aware that if years ago. part of it is just the way our society has changed in kids want to play basketball and they want to play baseball. they do want to play baseball ah much. when i was a kid we played in the schoolyard or the park every single day when the weather was warm and now you don't necessarily see that. when the weather is warm the kids play basketball. again mlb is not done a great job.ro the situation with coaches and general managers is important. wewe had three black coaches in the nfl last year and now we

have two plus someone who is bi-racial and identifies as black.oa the number of black coaches has goneal down. and for all the last month we only had one black coach in the nfl that was mik' colin. it's kind of hard to fire him at this point. tony dungy -- it leaned on both of them heavily for my reporting as you can tell. i have known for dell since he first got the job and my eyes got along fine with him. i interviewed every other commissioner and ironically the day florida sued them it was almost wordt for word the e-mais that i got from the nfl's guy. rodgers very busy and blah,

blah, blah. ii ask tony dungy y.? he's embarrassed. i don't think roger goodell is a bad guy. they are paying him 44 million bucks a year. >> doug williams wrote the forward to this book and he says if this book were written by someone who p is black love peoe will shrug and say -- so i'm wondering how you take advantage of your whiteness to write this book and how they came into play startingli to think it could hae been published if you were not >> that's a very good question i don't know the answer to that. michael wilbon who you know well said to me early in my reporting it was better if this book was written by a re guy.

one of the publishers who turned downre the idea they were five publishers who turned it down howdy write a book about race when you are ? widest arrays, is that? i've written books about playing golf on the pga tour and i've never been on the pga tour. i don't pretend what i know what it's like to be black. when i'm pulled over it's usually because i'm -- but every single personie i interviewed yu would be right in their jay at some point driving while black. literally stopped by a while

walking his dog because he -- the first guy interviewed who is not walking dog while black. i went into the book knowing that i can't empathize with what it's like to be black. i can sympathize because of all the people i've known and evolved people i people i got to interview with thiss book. you'd be amazed the number of people you probably wouldn't be amazed that many of the people i interviewed thanked me for wanting to do the book for the exactxa same reason that wilbon and blackstone said it's better if you do it because you are like the fact that even though i can understand what was like to be black i was trying toke wonders -- trying to explain.

>> we talk about coaching and where do we stand now? we criticizecr the numbers. we don't do a good enough job of praising when the right thing is done and if you look at the tampa bay buccaneers they have had three black head coaches in their history and they just won the super bowl last year purposelyhr at all the major coordinating positions. he had one in arizona and he said there's not just one there too. it doesn't lead to any wave of

hiring. we add the same coaching staff in the semi finals of the nfl playoffs and wein have fraser ad morris and all these coaches and of course eric be enemy. why haven't the people who have shown you can do it increase and created some type of copycat around the lee? >> that's a great point of on the tony dungy made to me. the notion that they are not qualified guys out there is so far out of line right now. there are plenty of qualified coaches out there and some of it goes back to the simple fact that they are 31 nfl owners in the city.

31 nfl in 30 of them are . interestingly the owner in jacksonville haded never hired a black coaches general manager. we see how well that's worked out for him in recent years especially this past year but you were talking about people and this isn't unique to the nfl but it's also true on college sports and in major league case ball.tr the nba has had so much success in so many black coaches had success in the nba going back to wrestle with the celtics. the nba was so far ahead of the curve thanks to him. guys look at somebody sitting in her office and they are called more comfortable with someone that looks like them. a lot of the old -- who are

used to nobody telling them what to do are used to people telling them they are right no matter what they do. i felt before the florist lawsuit them for a think there were people on the phone saying in houston and miami and the other one was new orleans we ore to hire a black coach two. i felt before that florist was fired the day after the nfl team concluded in a lot of us myself including attack steve and there's empirical evidence that black coaches have a shorter leash not only is it harder to get hired it's harder to avoid being fired.

>> jim caldwell had the best record of any coach in 60 years. how they done since then? really not well. i felt like some of the ownership dug in. we are going to let anybody in the media or anyone else tell us what to do or who to higher in the first six hires in the hiring cycle were all . i'm not saying any of them are unqualifiedth. it kind of sums up who these ownersrs are. he's a distinguished guy and he's no dan snyder and belichick was actually congratulating florist for getting the job three days before he was interviewed in brian ewald had

been hired already so kind of interview with that? >> a question from the audience on you talk to tony dungy in the book about the situation. >> issue no tony dungy is very low key always wants to hear both sides of the question. i was sitting at the dining room table and i said so eric be enemy in before i could finish the question he said now that was racism and this was two years ago. this was to hiring cycles ago and he said there's no reason for eric the enemy did not have a job based on what he has accomplished. he is running the best offense and b football and he still is.

the chiefs loss aside in the conference championship game. as i said before we started i mentioned when i interviewed eric be enemy for the book he was bright, who is smart, he was funny, he was a storyteller. he clearly had a great memory. he recited to me a poem or a chant excuse me of this coaches the new orleans when he was 10 yearss old that the kids would recited into practice every day. the notion that he didn't get the job because of an interview is and then there was well he doesn't call the plays. neither did doug peterson who won the super a bowl and neither did andy reed was he was in assistant coach.

there's no reason for eric be enemy not to have a job. these are bright young coaches and they are coaches anymore bus it seems like everybody wants to higher a sean mcvay. they want to hire guys in their 30s with a bit off the eared. sean mcvay is a terrific coach and he he was in the super bowl on sunday but that shouldn't be the role model for who you are hiring to the role model should how good have you've been as an assistant for how good ryu as a coach? bill belichick failed in his job as head coach and clearly there were things that prevented him from succeeding in cleveland but he did pretty well in new england.ou just because he was fired once doesn't mean he should get anotherly chance although willie

randolph had a winning record with the new york mets 71 wins of the season got fired and that was 13 years ago and he had never gotten anotheran job. >> i can't think of the last time i heard willie randolph's name before you mentioned it right here. the nba does have a better record looking at the numbers and it no longer seems like news when black coaches are hired in the nba and get how many of the better jobs go to black coaches? and ii want to point that out that in recent years we have had black coaches doc rivers but it's somewhat infrequent when you look at the history of what coaches in the nba despite the

representative members of the league right now. guys like steve kerr that you spoke to. what did you learn from them about how a coach can succeed ein a week that is predominantly black? >> when you mentioned popaditch you wereou talking about two gus who really understand as much as a guy can what it's like to be black. most of them told me the george floyd thing change their outlook and these were guys who had to be good outlooks on the issueut beforehand but they both said my god you know i don't know enough about what's going on in this country.o >> that's pretty stunning to me. the amount of time and the edges that they take in the interests and concerns of their black players and yet after all that

time they felt like they didn't know s enough. >> a mic krzyzewski was the same way. he was on a zoom call with every former black player and all his former players but many of them black to try to learn more, to try to understand the frustration. that's why he did the black lives matter video. two minutes and 47 seconds and it's really passionate great he told me he didn't write anything. he hosts his former player one of this as an sense to stand next to the camera and he stood next to him and said this is how i feel. popovich said he had his first experience with understanding when he was in college at the air force academy playing in north carolina went to a club. everybody was in line and they

got to the frontline of the bouncer looked at the three guys and he looked at the black guy and he said you can't come in here. again they were in colorado and greg had grown up outside of chicago. would you talking about he can't come in? popovich said he realized that night how his life had been that he never really he never had known a black guy guy and he made it a point to try to understand and he told me he is told his players on different occasions if i were black i would have gone to jail a number of times because of the way the police adult with him. and steve, you know steve. he's one of the brightest guys out there and ease of popovich disciple and he said he went on a reading spree to try to

understand better what it's like to be black and one of his assistant coaches told him that he was watching the news one night after the ahmaud arbery shooting in his 8-year-old son walked in and his son turned him andec said is a true we can't rn in our neighborhood because that's how ahmaud arbery was killed? he said i've never had to deal with that with my kid and anybody who's the father, a blackas father, has had to talk about dealing with police and don't give them an excuse to give you a hard time. .. s to him to them and his older son said oh, come on dad. that's not gonna happen. this is 2018. it's a different world than you what you grew up in in norfolk,

virginia and mike you grew up in norfolk, virginia. and three times in the first year his son had a drivers license he was stopped for the first questions are the same, where did you get this car? a black person can't possible be driving a nice car. >> a comment on the drivers license that changeg anything? >> apparently twice it was in their neighborhood. and i guess the cops knew where he lived in pittsburgh. but tony told me he got stopped in kansas city driving f home le from work one night. the cop followed him, follow him, bowed and probably pulled him over claimed he had -- mickey the cop was behind him is been extra careful party claimed he had made a right turn on red without stopping. when tony said come on you're just giving me a hard time.

and he said it could have escalated for the best story about that", was doctor rivers told me that when the clippers played in the old l.a. sports arena in one afternoon kenny norman who is on the team pulled over to get gas for the next thing it was across the hood of his car because cops are driving by a south central, black-eyed driving nice car had to be stolen. >> comments from the audience i want to get here quickly. one is a situation is always disturbednd me. another one, i just finished reading your book last month that's one of the best additions to my sports library. and the third one, one of my best friends what his white friends as what they could do to help with him gratian said we need your voice, thank you for using your voice. and i also want to use that

going back a little bit and they are needed to listen, is that the solution of willingness to listen your report reporting for this book and your lifeif experiences? when we ask what can change, how can changes at that simple? and/or is that request that difficult to ask? >> yes that would be a great solution unfortunately it is a difficult task. and again i go back to the 74 million people who voted for donald trump. i'm not saying they are all racist. but donald trump is a racist. you cannot argue that if you know his life, if you know his policies if you know the words he has spoken.

and yet all of these people still chose to vote for him. and thank god joe biden was d elected. i found that very discouraging it was as close as it was. especially after trump had been in office for four years. if you didn't know who he was before he got into office you had to know who he was after he got into office. it was trump who incited the anthem approach s when he gave the rant in alabama say you know what i want to see happen, if you kneel during our national anthem they say a fire that slb. >> it really died down right before that, right? the protest had died down. >> the week before that rant six players had knelt spray the next week 200 players either knelt or stayed in the locker room. mike gave his players the option of staying in the locker room in they wanted to there was one other team that stayed in the locker room. exit any white players kneel?

>> yes, yes exactly but it's funny because i was working on a book on playing quarterback in the nfl that year and alex smith was one of the guys i was working with his plane for the chiefs at the time. he is said to me he felt so bad for his black teammates. he said if they kneel they are going to be considered unpatriotic or they are going to be considered betrayers of some kind. but if they don't kneel, aren't they betraying their race at this point? and the president has literally challenge them, when he's being blackballed. and i never talk to a player white or black did not think collin was blackballed. they finally admitted it a couple years back a year end half ago now. but i think again, it is hard

for people to understand that just because race does not affect your life, if you are white in this country there's a lot of people are completely unaffected by race. just because it does not affect your life doesn't mean it's not an issue. to say it is not an issue is people keep saying why make race an issue? because it is. and to say i don't think it is an issue, you are either being naïveve or ignorant or flat out stubborn. cook suit spoke to john carlos and thomas smith i'm going to paraphrase this question from the audience here. do you think history will look at : n/a similar light with the same type of appreciation as we have for them now? >> i honestlynd do. and it is funny because both a tommy smith and john carlos tell me they believe that about call it cap next. let happen faster for him because things are better now

than they used to be. >> is a documentary coming out right? >> exactly right. my guess is, i don't know did he talk to them? i don't know. >> yes he was involved in that. i think it is a netflix production. he is being paid for. my guess is he'll be fairly sympathetic. the larger point is when people do something where they know they are putting themselves in jeopardy that is what tommy smith and john carlos did. they knew there putting themselves in jeopardy. so did peter norman the australian who is on the metal podium with them who wore a button supporting the group they were a part of harry edwards had started prior to the olympics. he was absolutely in australia for that and was an outcast. and only afternd he died he died

in 2006 carlos and smith were also paul bears by the way in both the religious. 2012 the australian parliamentam actually formally apologize to his family for the way s he had been treated they all knew colin knew when he sat when he knelt for the anthem is goingt to have consequences it ended up costing him his career as we know. i thought maybe frederick adele get on the phone to somebody and say hire bryant right now to try to head off a lawsuit but it did not happen. i think chances are very good he will never work in the nfl again. he is only 40 years old.f he should be going into the peak years of his coaching career. maybe he will end up as a college coach somewhere. i think there's a good chances nfl career is over. and if so, sure he should be

viewed as a martyr a professional martyr. >> will be interesting is beyond standards we see this prominent nfl names coaching at strictly black colleges in the future. i would keep an eye on that trend as well. >> in the thing out safety on sanders has continued static success he has this year a power five schools going to hire him. because why wouldn't she hire deion sanders if he can coach the early evidence is he can coach. he can certainly recruit. i wrote a column in december and said i wish my alma mater, duke, had hired him and seven other white assistant coach. >> trying to think of prime

time. >> i think it would. the kids and go to the basketball game some of them go to b football games i think they would love deion sanders especially if he won. by the way i don't how well you know i deion i got to know him very well when i did my book on the baltimore ravens in 2004 because he was there. and i am telling you he could take over any room he is in. he is cap that personality but also because he is so damn smart. would have to be your next book it would have to be. >> i would be there. the question can we find a past equity had coach positions that dealing with that lingering position black athletes are successful are bigger, stronger, faster white athletes are thought to be successful because they play smarter. john i would argue that is in us thing.

that media, the way we shape the perceptions is strictly a matter is in it? >> we are alllts guilty. it's like we are all guilty in the '90s looking the other way when steroids were taking over baseball. there is definitely thatt perception. there's coding particularly on tv people talk about the white point guard who is so cerebral in the most cerebral point guard i ever knew it was tommy who wasn't big, what's up fast, wasn't quick. all he did was when the game for you. >> now coaches at harvard. >> and i approach coaches at harvard which is appropriate as a net? by the way what are my favorite stories is tommy played mit t every year in their opening game usually their opening game their schools like a mile apart. the mit students come to harvard proven harvard players are

introduced they chant safetyre school. which i think is great. perspex shown the old thing perception is reality, unfortunatelyun yes. people believe perception should be reality. when idiots like what's her name on fox news i'm blocking on her name right now, say shut up and dribble. there are people listening to her. and most of the time lebron james makes sense. he is not always right, none of us are. but the notion that because you play ball or because you are black, or worse in both cannot have opinions on things. how many times have you -- i know it happens to me all the time they say stick to sports. politics have been a part of sports forever, go back to the 1936 olympics and hitler ago back to the first greek olympics

when that guy was running to athens and ran a quarter marathon to give news of a or victory died upon giving the news that was the first olympics.. >> another question professional teams are privately owned with like packers universities are state-funded. how is that they are able to get away with these kinds of racial inequities in hiring? >> it's a good question and worth noting most college athletic departments or 5o1c3's. they are tax-exempt major league baseball has they are exempt i'm blocking on the name of the law. you know what i'm talking about. the nfl is not as much antitrust. antitrust laws. so you are right. how do they get away with it?

the way they get away with it unfortunately i've a a friend who has since passed away loves duke and loved all of duke's black basketball players because they were good. but was absolutely racist. hhe accepted, he was fine with playing for school and helping his schooll win. but he did not want any of them over to dinner. that is true of a lot of alumni of these schools but i know i am overgeneralizing. a lot of people who will defend got athletes from their school black or white. also don't want to have the black athletes to their house for dinner. and in many cases don't want a

black person coaching their teams or their players are. >> of thinking recently about a conversation i had with peter of tribalism is so show different tribes to natural instinct you can't necessarily say when you look at those numbers it's not necessarily racism it isak tribalism and that people are going to hire people they are comfortable with and make them feel comfortable pair they're going to gravitate towards that. i would say racism comes into play why have they lived such a segregated lives when they haven't been around black people are people of different races in order to be more comfortable? so the racism comes into play and that we are segregated.

then they tribalism comes into play and that does not expose other people. when it's time to hire you only feel comfortable certain people. but we cannot legislate higher we cannot force hiring we can force interviews, but we have to stop short of mandating you hire people based on race. therefore if we can't do that how do you make people comfortable if they are coming from a society that is segregated? >> at the catch-22 question. i think most of those making the higher it be shocked that she said to them that they are racists, they acted in a way that is racist. i don't think mike shanahan is a racist. but i do think without thinking about he reserve it to racial coding and the situation. probably somebody pointed it out to him he said oh my god that is not what i meant. that's what came out.

and that is the way he was thinking. i know people -- like a perfect example is john gruden. after his e-mail so there's not a racist bone in my body. of course there is. i think we honestly believe there is not. i think that's true of many people who would say i'm not a racist. i had a friend who worked on the pga golf tour for many years and we used to argue all the time he was on my best friends i played on the tour, okay, what would you do ied asked? if your daughter came to the front door and introduce you to her black boyfriend? he said anna said go get my

shotgun for actually hiring somebody rather than just interviewing them because the rules say is going to give dan credit he already met his obligationnd by interviewing robert for the year he hired mike tomlin. tomlin o blew him away as he put it. the other interesting thing wrong or bear who basically grew up in california is considered a minority. and robert is considered a minority because he is a muslim bird i asked m brian mccarthy on the nfl i said when it is said to gilman or coaching where they considered minorities because they were jewish? he said no they are not. i don't know how they draw those lines.f in the bottom line is like you said 70% of the league as a black and we now have two black

coaches and one mixed race coach. >> my final question my personal favorite of all your books i read that on the way to cover my first british open project which of the world of golf and a lot of history of it as well. why hasn't tiger woods led to an explosion or a greater wave of black offers? for 25 years why hasn't that happened? >> and tiger won the masters in 1997 a lot of money started pouring into the first tee. i think we all thought that we were going to see a lot more good pga tour level like level the first has produced one a player on the tour and is a minority scott he is left-handed.

>> of the nfl would consider that aom minority. i think some of it has to do with tiger. it's h not like a mission that s great. look at me try to grow up to be like me. who he is, he is completely the opposite of tiger. when the tournament overseas.w harold is pretty involved to be with the first it's not about golf. it is abo enough. i need more programs he grew up in. he grew up in a municipal course

in north carolina. his dad paid $100 for the summer. we played monday through friday. we need more than thatt and golf not so much people say it learn the rules, learn the etiquette, go out and play. that's the way you get good. go out and play. >> as someone who has been able to share dinner, conversation with which you helped. i was vastly insufficient. this has been terrific. both of you guys, i cannot thank you enough for being with us tonight. we'll be talking i wouldn't suspect will be talking about these issues will be on tonight's, will be on sunday probablyoi well beyond when they

are doing what we are doing. where it has taken me in a modern sports. we encourage you to buy it at your local independent bookstore or a book shop.org which independent bookstores across the country. thank you again so much. thank you again so much pretty want to thank all of you as well. >> during a recent program marker clifford talked about china's control over hong kong which he says foreshadows what china has planned for the world. here is a portion of her. >> the broader question why does this matter to the rest of the world? i think china's willingness to destroy a place like hong kong