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tv   John Feinstein Raise a Fist Take a Knee  CSPAN  June 20, 2022 8:59pm-10:00pm EDT

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you can go sean you are partisan, now. one, joe biden told us high would be most progressive president -- those are his words, 3 fridays ago today he said if we pass my piece of legislation we'll strong -- transform the structure and nature of the economy. who asked for that, i don't remember that in the campaign, what is wrong with it we need to understand, that is what is happening, if we don't wake up and i hate to say, a lot of pick folks on right talk about biden is not in charge, we're minimizing the problem. the problem is whoever is in charge, i don't care, but they are going in a driksd direction that i don't
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want to go, and won't government has its tentacles in things it never lets go.
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the dominant headlines are not gushing and there is a racial equity problem. in the class-action lawsuit filed last week against the teams fired as the miami dolphins back winning seasons. the racially segregated and, quote, managed much like a plantation. the commissioner, roger goodell
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said to add diversity to its head-coaching is unacceptable and being the numbers are stark and the two head coaches are blackened a total of five or minorities. of course one of the best on the planet was in front of the story. the book takes the progress that came out in november and lays out the record of success and with football and basketball, other pro sports that had been promoting and especially achieving racial equity. facebook, two black managers and one block executive running the
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baseball operations. of the one in which alabama and ohio state and missouri and kansas. 130 programs in which 60% of the players were black or other minorities the past season with 80% of the head coaches same for the people that hired and 81% of the records in those were and are white. of course there's also the pushback against those that might dare to take a stand. we saw about six years ago when more than two dozen football players at the university of missouri would sit out of the schools and university systems or the incidences on campus. colin is out of football.
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they plagued the society at large. they haven't in the past and they still don't now. during the conversations another friend that directs the sports journalism program were now at the school of journalism and integrated marketing communications. when i first talked about the program around his book, the first thing he said this is the most important book i've written which for john is saying something. he's written 35 books including two of the most acclaimed and best selling of all time on the
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brink. john is a longtime writer and columnist for the "washington post" and has contributed to many other outlets. there's five holes of fame including the sports writers hall of fame and the memorial basketball hall of fame. since 2016 he's also accomplished including ten years from the los angeles times and as a writer to the "washington post" alongside john and "the chicago sun-times." he recognized him from the more than a thousand appearances on the roundtable discussion show. if there was a question over the course of the discussion, and we hope you do, you can submit it by the chatterbox and it will
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get as many answers as we can at the end of the presentation. it's great to see you again and it's great to have you here. thanks so much for joining us and welcome to the both of you. i will let you get started. >> thank you so much and it's great to see you again and be united with of the two of you and i appreciate that you thought of me for this discussion. certainly these are topics that i've always felt were important. one of the reasons i got into sports journalism is to help tell the stories beyond the field and beyond the arena to look at the introduction of the sports in society. john has certainly taken on that challenge and of all of the multitudes of books that everyone is starts with the same thing and that's an idea so what would be the idea and motivation behind of the book at this time? >> first of all, thanks for
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doing this with me. i'm grateful for you taking the time and i think we are both grateful to you for reaching out to us. my history with race into sports goes back to when i was in college. i grew up in new york city. i played ball all the time in my neighborhood with white and black kids and hispanic kids. the only thing that matters, and i'm sure you experienced this as a kid as well, it matters what race you were or what your ethnic background was. but when i am at duke, it's a lot different politically and in every possible way. my junior year, duke played a football game in the army and back them was lousy in football, so that harold, the local paper i was starting to do some streaming work for them as a staffer at times and they asked
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me to cover the football game which i was thrilled to write the lead in the sidebar. then i wrote my sidebar and turned out to be a very good college player. i was very happy with myself. i made deadlines, picked up the paper the next morning and decided to see the bylines. when i got to the part i introduced the lead, it said freshman quarterback and i was like what? he had a black linebackers and running backs and wide receivers. he was the first quarterback at duke, disposed 1970s, 75.
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so i called the editor for the stories because he put in a sidebar and i said what are you doing here, what difference does it make what color he is. he's the first black quarterback. that is part of the story. the funny thing was, when i was working on this began to talking talkingwith doug williams who we forward and i would go way back with him and i told him that story he laughed at me and said boy were you naïve. of course they were going to put that in the story. it was one of my first experiences dealing with the fact that race is always there in one form or another. then in 2010 there were other incidences and black athletes and coaches throughout the year. but in 2010, jonathan came to play quarterback here in washington and in the eighth game of the season he'd taken
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every snap and washington fell behind 30-25 and they took the kick off and you were the chicago backgrounder. he was stripped back, game over. so he could have said i had a gut feeling, he could have said he wasn't having a great game which he wasn't but instead he said i didn't know he knew of the two-minute offense. that answer didn't sit well with
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a lot of media so the next day he was asked again and this time he didn't say i didn't know if he was in shape to run back. so this is similar to for the week. it was a bye week and chris mortensen, who you know well reported on espn this weekend that according to sources, it was anonymous. this is a guy that's taken a team to the super bowl, has been a quarterback, and i think the eagles made the playoffs seven times in the ten years. now in a week he's been called out of shape, not prepared and finally the next day i went on a
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tv show that i think you were on through the years, "washington post" live and i said this is racial coding. this goes back to the 60s and 70s when people claim they were not smart enough to play the quarterback position. and what was most fascinating about it is how i was attacked but also the national media i was accused of playing the race card which is what happens often when you bring up race as an issue. people say why are you making raise an issue, because it is an issue and 90% right. so that would be the protest in 2017. he was clearly out of the league so most of the nfl media was writing stories quoting sources
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saying no, no he's not good enough anymore. all of a sudden he wasn't good enough to be there in the league. during the protest after donald trump whenever the players were kneeling and booing i thought we are really polarized in the country right now racially. i went to see john thompson who i had known you since i first got to the post when he was in the middle of the hall of fame career and we fought for much of that time, legendary fights when i was stupid enough to offer to
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go and it wouldn't have worked out well fortunately. he had become kind of a mentor after he retired because he was so smart. i went and said to him i want to do a book on the sports but i don't know where this starts. and he said you might as well try to explain the holy trinity, then he pointed a finger at me and said which is why you have to do it. last year i found a way in which was the march act, who as you remember when you came out of college was told to become a wide receiver, to become a running back. your skills are not) nfl quarterback. here they were drafted in the top ten. one of them had become a star. he was on his fourth team
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already and sam with the jets no surprise to me as a lifelong jets fan and with the carolina panthers. so he went with the last pick in the first round and not coincidentally was chosen by the first black general manager. we all know what has come to pass. he was the unanimous mvp in the second year in the league. they had never won another game after he got injured. he's one of those, at worst, excuse me, he has all these experts, the scouts, dependence on tv, napoleon, i'm not picking on him but he happens to be a hall of famer on tv at the time and they said he shouldn't be quarterback. steve young was very fast. parkinson was very fast. no one ever suggested of a
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change position. it's lamar jackson with the same player and no one have ever suggested he changed position so that was my way into the book. >> i want to go back to that story that you told about the army game and seeking. from subsequently the most recent conversation with doug williams about that and about how in some cases black people want the race to be included. it's not a sidebar when lamar jackson is the mvp. there's significant racial components in patrick my homes, the racial component of that is significant. how did you become aware of that and how did you come to appropriate that in your writing? >> i went and talked to mike
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dunn after that happened. we were fellow students and i apologized to him. he said don't worry about it. i understand why they did it. when he was in tampa i know this became kind of a famous story in the super bowl later but i apologized to him because we were about a year late. he was in his second year by the time george solomon sent me down to write a story about it and by then, it had gotten good and they went to the playoffs into the nfc championship game. but when i sat down with doug i said i'm really sorry to make you answer all these questions again and he said to john, i've been a black quarterback all my life, so fire away. don't worry about it. when people reference white guilt, i think sometimes i probably had some of that, but
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it's for good reason. there is reason for us to feel guilty about the way they've been treated. obviously that is totally different now. there are people many of them that voted for donald trump a little more than a year ago who want to believe that because there would be no jim crow, now some of them are basically being repealed that it's okay. we don't have to worry about race anymore. that is just not true as we all
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know. it's the fact steve mentioned it's 2022. it will be 75 years since jackie robinson made its debut in brooklyn come april. and we are still dealing with some of the same stuff. you know that. you were with it every day. >> the participation in major league baseball. it peaked in the 70s into the mid 80s. >> it was down to 6%, now it's come up to 8%. >> about half of where it was 40 years ago. >> it was almost 20% at that point. and part of it is just the way our society has changed and the kids want to play basketball, they want to play baseball, they don't want to play baseball as much. when i was a kid, we played in the school yard or the park every single day when the
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weather was warm and now you don't see that necessarily. now again, mlb, it hasn't done a great job and now they say the situation with coaches and general managers is unacceptable. okay. we had three black coaches in the nfl last year and now we have two plus someone who is biracial and identified as black. when it was already low, so for a long time since last month we only had one black coach in the nfl unit that was mike tomlin and he still has a job. it's hard to fire him at this point. i ask folks, and i leaned on both of these heavily in my reporting as you can tell in
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reading the book, why wouldn't roger goodale talk to me -- because i've known him since he first got the job and i've got along fine with him. i was turned down flat. i interviewed every other major commission but was turned down by roger goodell. ironically, the day he put up a statement it was almost word for word the e-mail that i got from brian mccarthy, the nfl pr guy on why he wouldn't speak to me. roger is very busy trying to promote diversity blah blah blah. as i said to him why wouldn't he talk to me and they both said the same thing. he's embarrassed. i don't think roger goodale is about a guy, but he's paid $40 million a year. >> so doug williams wrote the foreword to the book and said if this were to be written by someone that is black, a lot of people would shrug and say it's
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just another black guy whining. so i'm wondering how you took advantage of your whiteness to write this book and how that came into play starting with how you think it could have been published if you were not white. >> that is a good question and i don't know the answer to that. but you know them both well and they said to me when i talked to them early in my reporting that it was better that the book was being written by a white guy. if there are going to be some guys out there that say one of the publishers who turned down the idea, there were five publishers that turned it down, how can you write a book about race when you're white, and i said why it is a race, isn't it. i've written books about being a college basketball coach without ever being one and about being on the pga tour. so as a dog said and i said in
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the book i don't pretend that i know what it's like to be black. i've never been pulled over for driving while black. when i'm pulled over it's usually because i deserve it. every single person that i interviewed has been pulled over at some point for driving while black. and of course the exception to the story was the olympic swimmer who literally was stopped by a cop while walking his dog because the cop was convinced he had somehow stolen the dog and i said you are the first guy that i've interviewed that was walking a dog while black. so, i went into the book knowing i can't emphasize with what it's like but i can certainly sympathize. you would be amazed at the number of people, the many of
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the people i interviewed thanked me for wanting to do the book. they said it's better that you're doing it because you're white. they like the fact that even though i can't understand what it's like that i was trying to explain what it's like. >> in my case it was riding a bicycle while black and got a gun pointed at me at georgetown as well. >> where do we stand now and in particular, why aren't we seeing advancement? we criticize the numbers but i feel like we don't do a good enough job of praising when the right thing is done, and if you
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look at the tampa bay buccaneers they've had three black head coaches in their history and very purposefully into the major coordinating positions when he had one in arizona and said let's not just do one, lets do too so we built this diverse staff and it doesn't lead to any wave of hiring. we had the same staff in the semi finals of the nfl playoffs. we've got all the coaches succeeding and of course why haven't the people that have shown you can do it increased and created a some type of copycat around the league? >> that is a great point.
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he says the notion that there are not qualified guys out there is just so far out of line right now because clearly there are plenty of qualified black coaches out there and i think some of it gets back to the simple fact that there are 31 nfl owners that are owned by the city basically were fans, but 31 nfl owners and interestingly the owner in jacksonville has never hired a black coach or general manager. we see how well that's worked out for him in the recent years especially this past year. but if you're talking about people, and this isn't unique to the nfl. it's also true in big-time college sports and it's true as you mentioned in major league
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baseball. and it's true in the nba. although the nba has had so much success, so many black coaches dating back to bill russell with the celtics because the nba was so far ahead of the curve thanks in large part, but they look at somebody sitting in their office and they are just more comfortable with somebody that looks like them. and a lot of these are old white billionaires who don't want anybody or argues to nobody telling them what to do. they are used to telling them they are right no matter what they do and so i felt before the lawsuit and before i think there were people on the phone saying to houston and miami there were only three jobs left open at that point we have to hire a
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black coach or two or all hell is going to break loose. i felt like before that when florez was fired after the season and a lot of people myself included attacked the nfl unit this is empirical evidence they have a shorter leash it's harder to avoid being fired. >> jim caldwell has the bad record of any coach that had been there for four years and six years. i felt like some of them dug in and said we are not going to arrest anybody in the media or anybody else. tell us what to do or who to hire you to the first six hires
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sums up who they are and one of the distinguished guys he was congratulating florez for getting the giants a job three days before he was interviewed and when he had apparently already been hired so what kind of interview was that. >> question from the audience. what do you make of the situation more nuanced, and you talked to tony for the book about the situation so what do you make of it? >> he's hardly a jump on the table. he's very low-key, always wants to hear both sides of the
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question. i was sitting at the dining room table and before i could finish the question he said that is racism and to hiring cycles ago he said there's no reason for the enemy to not have a job based on what he's accomplished. he's running the best office in football and he still is. they lost in the conference championship and as i said i think before we got on and started, i mentioned when i interviewed him for the book he was bright and smart and funny, he was a storyteller. he had a great memory, he was writing to me a poem or chance
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that his coaches in new orleans when he was 10-years-old made the kids recited the end of practice every day. so the notion is ridiculous. then there's the excuse neither did doug peterson and when he was an assistant coach neither did andy reid. there's no reason for him not to have a job. these are bright young coaches. it seems like everybody wants to hire the next. they want to hire someone that is white in his 30s with a little bit of a beard.
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that shouldn't be the role model for who we are hiring. it should be how good have you been as an assistant or how good were you as a head coach they failed in the first and clearly there were circumstances that prevented him from succeeding in cleveland just because he gets fired once doesn't mean you shouldn't get another chance although he had a winning record that completely turned him around from one win 1097 wins in two years backfired and now he's never gotten another job. >> i can't think of the first time. what's a switch for a moment because they do have a better record if you look at the numbers and it no longer seems
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like news when they get hired in the nba and yet how many of the better jobs go to the coaches. i want to point that out in the recent years it's still somewhat in frequent despite the representative members. what did you learn from them about how to succeed in the league that is predominantly black? >> when you mention him you are talking about two guys who really understand and both of
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them told me that it changed their outlook and they had a pretty good outlook beforehand but they both said i don't know enough about what's going on in this country. >> that's pretty stunning to me given the amount of time and the interest that they take, yet they still after all that time felt like they didn't know enough. >> and mike was the same way. he did calls with every player but many of them black to try to learn more, to try to understand the frustrations because he felt he didn't understand the frustrations and that's why he did the black lives matter video which if you haven't seen it's
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really passionate and he told me he didn't write anything he just asked one of his assistants to stand next to the camera. he said he had his first experience of understanding when he was at the air force academy and they were playing in north carolina and the teammates went to a club and they were waiting in line and if there were three white guys and one black guy and they said you can't come in here. because again they were in colorado which is different from north carolina, and he was growing up outside chicago. all of them left and popovich said he realized that night how white his life had been, that he
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didn't really. he made it a point to try to understand. and he told me i would have gone to jail and a number of times because the way the police have dealt with him. he's one of the brightest guys out there and also is a popovich disciple and said he went on the readings agreed to try to understand better what it's like to be black and one of his assistant coaches told him he was watching the news one night after the shooting and his 8-year-old son walked in and he didn't realize he was there and his son turned to him and said does this mean we can't run in that neighborhood and he realized i've never had to deal
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with that with my kids and anybody that is a father, a black father has to give their kids the talk about dealing with police and don't give them an excuse to give you a hard time. he said his two teenage sons when they were getting ready to get drivers license as he explained this to them and they said come on that's not going to happen it's 2018 and it's a different world. they said okay and three times in the first year. where did you get this car, this black person can't possibly be driving this. twice it was in their
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neighborhood and twice in pittsburgh, but tony told me he got stopped again driving home late from work one night. the cost just followed him and followed him and finally pulled him over and claimed because he knew the cop was behind him and he was being extra careful, he claimed he made a turn on red without stopping. he said come on your giving me a hard time. he said it could have escalated. the story about that when the clippers play the old sports arena they had to drive to the arena and one afternoon, kenny and norman pulled over to get gas into the next thing he knew there were cops driving by and
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thought it had to be stolen. >> three comments from the audience i want to get in here quickly. it says the situation has always disturbed me. another one i just finished reading your book last month, and it's one of the best additions to my sports library. and the third one, one of my best friends asked what my wife can do to help combat systemic racism says we always need your voice. thank you for using your voice. going back to what you have to say about popovich and the need to listen, is that the story of willingness to both listen to the reporting on the book and your delight in experiences? when we ask okay, what can change, how can things change, is it that simple, or is the request that difficult to ask?
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>> yes, that would be a great solution. unfortunately, it is difficult to ask and again i go back to the 74 million who voted for donald trump and i'm not saying they were all racist, but donald trump is a racist. you can't argue that if you know his life and policy. if you know the words he's spoken. and yet all these people still chose to vote for him. thank god joe biden was elected, but i found that very discouraging that it was as close as it was. especially after trump had been in office and if you didn't know before he got into office you had to know after. remember it was trump who incited the anthem protest when he gave the rand in alabama saying you know what i want to see happen, i want to see and
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they said fire that sop. >> the protest had died down right before that. >> before that, six players. the next week, 200 players. mike tomlin gave his players the option to stay in the locker room if they wanted to. if there was one other team that stayed. >> many black players knew. >> exactly. and it's funny because i was working on a book in the nfl that year and alex smith is one of the guys i was working with. he said to me he felt so bad for his black teammates he said if they kneel they are going to be considered unpatriotic. they are being too considered traitors of some kind, but if they don't, aren't they betraying their race at this
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point when the president has literally challenged them, when call-in is being blackballed, and by the way i never talked to a play or white or black who didn't think that he wasn't being blackballed. goodale finally admitted a couple of years back, a year and a half ago now. i think again, it's hard for people to understand that just because race doesn't affect your life because if you are white in this country, a lot of people are completely unaffected. just because it doesn't affect a joe biden doesn't mean it's not an issue. and to say it is not an issue as people keep saying why do you make race in issue, well because it is. and to say i don't think it's an issue, you're being naïve or ignorant or just flat-out stubborn.
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>> you spoke to johnny smith. i'm going to paraphrase the question for the audience here. do you think that history will look in a similar light with of the same type of appreciation as we have for them now? >> i do, and it's funny because both told me they believe that, that it would happen faster for him because things are better now than they used to be. >> and there's a documentary coming out. >> my guess is i don't know if you talk to them you might know. >> i think it is a netflix production and so it's being paid for. my guess is it will be fairly sympathetic. but the larger point is that when people do something that they know they are putting themselves in jeopardy, that is
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what they say they knew they were putting themselves in jeopardy. so on the podium with them supporting the group that they were a part of that. edwards had started prior to the olympics and he was absolutely an outcast for that and only after he died -- he died in 2006 -- carlos and smith were both pallbearers by the way and you religionists. in 2012 the australian parliament actually formally apologized to the staff for the way that he had been treated. so they all knew. he knew when he sat at the anthem that it was going to have consequences and it ended up costing him his career as we know. and i don't know. i thought maybe if roger goodale
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would get on the phone with somebody to try to head off the lawsuit, but it didn't happen. and i think the chances are very good that he will never work in the nfl again. he's only 40-years-old. he should be going into the peak years of his coaching career. maybe he will end up as a palace coach somewhere. but i think there's a good chance that his career is over and if so, sure, he should be viewed as a professional martyr. >> what would be interesting when we see these prominent nfl names coaching at historically black colleges in the future, i would keep an eye on that trend as well. >> the other thing i would say is if the young sanders continues to have the success that he has, a power school is
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going to hire him because why wouldn't you hire deion sanders, and if he can certainly recruit. so i said, i wrote about him in december and i said i wish my alma mater and would hire him instead of just another white assistant coach. >> i think it is kind of prime time at duke. >> i think it would work because the kids that go to the basketball game, some of them go to football games. i think they would love deion sanders. by the way, i don't know how well you know him but i got to know him very well when i did my book in 2004. i'm telling you, he could to tae over any room he's in, because he's got that personality, but
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also because he is so damn smart. >> deion sanders to coaching at duke would have to be your next book. >> i would be there. absolutely. >> question here, can we find equity positions without dealing with the lingering position that black athletes are successful because they are bigger, stronger, faster, while white athletes are thought to be successful because they play smarter. john oliver argued the media, the way we shape the perceptions strictly as a matter of -- >> we are all guilty. like we were guilty in the '90s looking the other way when steroids were taking over baseball. there's definitely that perception answers almost particularly tv when people talk about the white point guard that is so cerebral and the most
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cerebral point guard that i ever knew wasn't big, wasn't fast, wasn't quick, all needed is when the game for you and now coaches at harvard which is sort of appropriate. but, by the way, one of my favorite stories they play mit every year in the opening game because their schools are like a mile apart and the students come to harvard and when the harvard players are introduced, i think it's great. but we do need to get that perception of the saying perception is reality. unfortunately, yeah. people believe perception to be reality and of course it's like what is your name on fox news, say shut up and dribble, there are people listening. and most of the time, lebron james makes sense.
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he's not always right. none of us are. but the notion that because you play ball or because you're black or both you can't have opinions on things, how many times, people say stick with sports. politics have been a part of sports forever. go back to the 1936 olympics were go back to the first greek olympics when the guy was running to athens and ran a quarter marathon to give news of a war victory. collapsed and died upon giving the news. that was the first olympics. >> another question. professional teams and subsections like the packers, both universities of
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state-funded. it's worth noting most college athletic departments are 5o1c3 5o1cthree's and tax-exempt. major league baseball is exempt from then the nfl isn't as much antitrust law so you're right. how do they get away with it and the way they get away from it unfortunately is that most you know, i had a friend whose sins passed away who went to duke and love all of the basketball players because they were good but was absolutely a racist and he was fine playing for his
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schooling in helping his school when but he didn't want any of them over to dinner. that is true of a lot of fans and alumni of the schools and i know i'm overgeneralizing. but a lot of people who will defend, black or white, also don't want to have black athletes to their house for dinner and probably in many cases don't want a black person coaching their teams or their players. >> and i've been recently thinking about a conversation they had with the movie producer and the la dodgers. he talks about tribalism and associated with different tribes. he doesn't consider that a bad thing. it's a natural instinct. you can't necessarily say it's
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not necessarily racism. it's tribalism and people are going to hire people they are comfortable with and they are going to gravitate towards that. i would say it comes into play why have they lived such a segregated lives when they haven't been around people of different races in order to be more comfortable so the racism comes into play in that we are segregated and then the tribalism if you are not exposed to different people and when it's time to hire you feel comfortable with certain people, but we can't legislate higher. we don't want to force hiring. it has to stop short of mandating hiring people based on race. so therefore how do you make people comfortable if they are coming from a society that segregated?
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>> they would be shocked if you said to them that they acted, that they are racist or acted in a way that is racist. i don't think mike shanahan is a racist. but i do think that without thinking about it he resorted to racial coding and if somebody pointed out to him he would say that's not what i meant. except that's what came out and that is what he was thinking. and i think i know people that for example after the e-mail he said there isn't a racist bone in my body. of course there is. but i think he honestly believed there's not. and i think that is true of many people who would say i'm not a racist. i had a friend that worked on the golf tour for many years and we use to argue all the time
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about the fact that i believe he was a racist. okay, what would you do, i asked, if your daughter came to the front door and introduced you to her black boyfriend and he looked at me and said honestly, i would go get my shotgun. but there are certain tests and there are certain levels and actually hiring somebody rather than just interviewing them because the rules say they have to interview someone or two completely different levels and i give him credit because he had already met his obligation by interviewing the year he interviewed and tomlin just blew him away as he put it but the other interesting thing is he basically grew up in california
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and is considered a minority and robert is considered a minority because he's muslim. and i asked brian mccarthy of the nfl i said so when they were coaching really considered minorities because they are jewish and they said they are not so i don't know how and at thebottom line is like you said. >> final question my personal favorite of all your books and i read this on my way to covering the first british open and a lot of history of it as well. why hasn't tiger woods led to an explosion or greater wave when he passed his masters, why hasn't that happened?
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>> when he won the masters and 97, a lot of money started pouring into the first team, and i think we all thought that we were going to see a lot more not tiger woods but good pga tour level. the first he has produced one player on the tour but not one black player. i guess the nfl would consider that a minority and i think some of it has to do with tiger. it's not like he's out there, he has his foundation and that's great but it's not like he is out there aggressively trying to say look at me, try to grow up to be like me. all you need to know about who he is and he's also completely
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the opposite, the personality. he is outgoing, friendly, just won a tournament overseas. but harold, who's been involved with the first-team carolina said enough. it's daycare at a golf course. what he suggested that they need more programs in golf like the one that he grew up in. he got to play at a municipal course. his dad paid $100 and he got to play monday through friday. we need more of that in golf. >> steve? >> as somebody that's been able to share dinner and
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conversations, it was vastly insufficient. this has been terrific and both of you, i cannot thank you enough. i do wish we had two hours to do this. but i suspect, i don't suspect, i know we will be talking about these issues probably not tonight but maybe sunday and well beyond when we are doing what we are doing. after the book with the progress in modern sports we encourage you to buy it at your local independent bookstore or on bookshop.org supports independent bookstores throughout the country. john, thank you again so much. terry, thank you again so much.
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and i want to thank all of you as well from the kansas city public library. >> thank you, john. funding comes from these television companies and more including. >> homework can be hard. squatting in the diner for internet is even harder that's why we provide income to internet so homework can just be homework. cox connected to compete. >> cox along with these companies support c-span2 as a public service.

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