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tv   Hearingon Capturing Carbon Dioxide Emissions  CSPAN  July 28, 2022 4:59pm-6:54pm EDT

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>> cap interval, proving ground. sunday night 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's q and a. you can listen to q&a and all of our podcasts and free c-span now app. ♪♪ >> free mobile app be drink on future view of what's happening live and on demand. keep up with the day's biggest events with live streams with hearings from u.s. congress. the world of politics. all at your fingertips. stay current with the leg episodes of "washington journal" and live scheduling information for c-span's tv networks c-span radio plus a variety of compelling podcasts. c-span now is available at the apple store and google play, download for free today c-span now, front row seat to washington anytime, anywhere. ♪♪ >> climate and energy professionals testify in the process capturing carbon dioxide emissions to combat climate
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change. the hearing took place before the senate environment work committee. it runs one hour and 50 minutes. >> let us turn now to discuss the potential for carbon capture and storage help us address climate change, create the american jobs economic growth. my thanks to ranking member senator capitol and her staff for requesting this hearing. ... i don't want to lose everybody. we are increasingly feeling the
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impact in the form of extreme winter events -- whether events a key wave. 85 million excessive heat warnings and advisories. yesterday st. louis broke its previous single day record for rainfall from 1915. much of the pacific northwest continues to experience record-breaking high temperatures putting lives at risk. it's worth noting extreme heat is leaning to winter related deaths in our country and last year alone resulted in the death of toder people people in our country. quarter from -- to data from the noaa extreme heat is exacerbating drought conditions across the united states threatening critical sectors of our economy like never before. this includes the agricultural
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sector which is important all of our states and the mice to delaware. according to the farm bureau federation severe drought in the west affects 40% of farmers. fischer farmers in california have been forced to cut back production from cherries and almonds after the drought in 1200 years. not with weeks, not months. 1200 years by but the signs are clear climate change is here and continues to worsen. we -- it's incumbent upon us to address this issue using all the tools in our toolbox. carbon capture cc u.s. on critical tool reducing the amount of warming greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and
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keeping global warming below 1.5 degrees celsius. don't just take my word for it. analysis by the international energy agency united nations governmental panel on climate change and other respective organizations say as much. congress thinks the leadership of former chair center john barasso along with senator capito senator whitehouse and others on the committee utilizing significant emissions with innovative technologies and the acronym is called use it. we worked to pass us by person legislation. today the biden demonstrations ongoing implementation coupled with new funding for carbon management projects and federal programs through the infrastructure law continued to support research throughout our
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country. the council and environmental quality announced it is seeking the nomination to head to new task forces by the act. these task forces will provide input to inform responsible deployment of car carbon capture the station and storage on federal lands. the outer continental shelf as well as nonfederal land. to me talk about responsible to plan by the projects it's important to emphasize the key role in the equity must pay here. i'm pleased to see guidance for carbon capture projects as ritter. in robust treble consultation and stakeholder plans to prioritize environmental justice and development of best practices for cc u.s. efforts. doing so are taxed overburden communities from potential
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negative impacts and helps ensure those most vulnerable to climate change benefit from a clean energy environment. investing in carbon capture is necessary to. economic opportunity at the same time. carbon capture -- devastating climate related events like we are experiencing right now and thus facilitate a wide spread development of wind and solar nuclear hydrogen, clean hydrogen and other forms of energy. none of these technologies hold the key to saving our planet in creating good-paying jobs across the nation. let me thank our panel of witnesses for joining us today we look forward to hearing from you as part of these discussions and look forward to ranking member senator capito for her
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opening state and thank you for having us. to great idea. >> thank you chairman carper and thank you for calling today's hearing and it will be adjusting. this is a topic i'm very passionate about and i'm glad the committee is having this hearing on carbon capture utilization and storage better known as cc u.s.. i want to thank your witnesses and their cfo senator all the way down there and preparation for introductions. despite what headline suggests climate change is an area where we have found a bipartisan solution. are the past few years the committee has developed bipartisan legislation to protect the interest of my heads of our constituents no matter where they live or work or the committee has led the way in developing climate wind, nuclear energy energy innovation and modernization act of 2018 and in 2022 the climate title of the surface transportation bill signed into law as part of the iij eyes last year.
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we have performed well here i think. both on the legislation in our committee and outside of our jurisdiction i want to recognize the leadership of chairman carper and senator whitehouse and their achievements. it comes to ccus and the passage of the future actives expands the 45 tax credits for ccus and the previously mentioned use that act to require the council on environmental quality to expedite the permitting and development of the project and scale out to support the transportation of carbon dioxide through additional tools. these are important pieces of legislation signed into law that help to enable a buildout of carbon capture. groups from the intercontinental and the chairman quoted from them as well intergovernmental panel on climate change to united states department of energy recognized ccus is an essential tool in reducing
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carbon dioxide emissions. other technology like hydrogen advanced nuclear boards and opportunity for innovation in the next phase of decarbonization. significant further reductions in emissions will come from private-sector innovation not from top-down government mandates. the biden administration supports the ccus and it's crucial to deploying technology. encouraged the administration has been actively working to implement. i commend them for taking the recent step of issuing draft guidance along with a report issued last year by that they are still so much more to do. i wrote a letter to my colleagues asking that any final guidance issued by ccus be more explicit and detailed. while my staff has been informed the interim guidance will not be updated based on comments a minute i them to consider this decision. the ccus guides need to provide direction to federal agencies that will expedite project
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delivery. i also understand the ccus is finally starting the process of leaving the task forces that were established in the bipartisan bill. i you to move quickly to get a range of perspectives to provide needed feedback on challenges and successes on these projects and ways to improve the permitting process. in addition to the use of active in following the ccus provisions in that iij a.. a scale act would support a buildout of infrastructure and transport carbon dioxide through locations where it can be used to manufacture or store safely and securely underground. pipeline if the structure is essential to decarbonization ruptures all around the country and moving carbon to where it can be staved -- safely stored. the bill includes important funding for a program called the underground injection control
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program. these wells are used to inject carbon dioxide into deep rock formation for permanent storage. the program can be administered by epa to grant privacy to the state. part of the iij a funding was included to help process applications and enable states to administer their own programs. only two states have carbon sequestration wells north dakota and wyoming. other states are following suit. the state of west virginia and will louisiana has been working on as well and i look forward to hearing more about their experience. many states across the country's ccus is the cusp of a revolutionary lead. i want to clarify the progress we are beginning to see should not be the basis for more regulation for mandates. practically speaking a heavy hand will the nation's
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technology and prevent the emission reductions we have hardly seen that are possible when the american economic engine is brought to bear on a problem even when his biggest as climate change requiring ccus would not be lawful under the clean air act standard-setting provision. i look forward to hearing from our panel and thank you for the actions being taken in the private state governor and federal levels to advance ccus as well as what issues congress should be focused on to provide this technology. thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you and thank you senator capito for suggesting we hold this hearing today. earlier today this is not a new idea. i came here in 2021 and i remember well the conversation i had with the senator from west virginia who was born in north carolina. the time i was the only native west virginian in the senate.
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robert heard one of the things he mentioned to me when a -- was the ability to capture and sequestered carbon dioxide and the old saying that someone has passed away are rolling over in their grave. robert byrd is rolling over in his grave cheering these recommendations. turning it to our steam panel of witnesses we will hear from them and a minute. first will be jason albritton at the nature conservancy and second we will hear from brad townsend vice president for policy and average for the center for climate and energy solutions and third luvall here from jason lancios. i hope i have that right and if i don't just tell me. technology assessment division
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of the louisiana department of natural resources and i'm sure senator cassidy will correct me if i need to be corrected. last to hear from john harju vice president for strategic partnership energy and environmental research at the university of north dakota. there we go. thank you mr. albritton and now we will turn to mr. townsend please. >> thank you.
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>> again at cantor witnesses thank you all for your willingness to appear before committee today and before witnesses begin their testimony will turn it over to senator kramer turned to does one of our witnesses. we look forward to hearing from him. and thank you chairman carper and ranking member capito for having this important hearing. on the topic we are interested in one of the times senator whitehouse and i got to dig in on the same side of the subject. ccus is clearly a topic near and dear to florida is obvious by one of our witnesses. we have been at this for a couple of decades. i was an economic development director for regional organization pete kor. it's starting to bear. it's been implementing carbon capture utilization storage now for a while. just last month retro energy the
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ethanol producing company in western north dakota started injecting co2 deep into her geology removing nearly all of the associated carbon emissions involved in the production of ethanol supplant. we talked about the two states senator capito the primacy gas facility for producing facility and wyoming that types to north dakota for utilization for oil recovery. critical to help with all of this to achieve his accomplishments as her witness today john's harju the rest of his team at the environmental research center at the university of north dakota. they are premier research entity on all fossil fuels as well as renewable and alternative fuels and have become a world leader. not only north dakota. throughout the country. i want to reiterate a point and
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brag about them a little bit. john and his team are not just consultants. their engineers who built components to analyze core samples and advocate for public policy at the local state and federal level and health projects in the navigate bureaucracies. they do it all. whatever curiosities you may have you will not find a better resource. dawn in particular is familiar and an excellent resource and important plant and served as the vice president for strategic partnerships at the university leads the senators -- center's efforts in working with industry government and research entities and in support of the mission to provide solutions to the world's energy and environmental challenges. i'm just grateful for his willingness to be here today and for his good work and look forward to his testimony and answering are difficult questions. >> thank you so much for the
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introduction. harju i wonder if anyone is ever miss is ever mispronounce his name? thing? now i'm welcome to recognize senator cassidy and another witness from his home state of louisiana. senator cassidy. >> thank you mr. chairman and pasted introduced jason lancios. he serves as the director director of louisiana energy office technology assessment division within louisiana department of natural resources and serves on the state climate task force with the carbon capture coalition and executive board member for the national association of state energy officials. he will be discussing implementation of policies related to primacy for carbon sequestration wells and other policies to support carbon capture utilization and storage. the theme of your hearing is a balancing of economic development at how we address
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climate could louisiana this is an existential issue. the chairman can relate to this louisiana has the equivalent of the landmass of delaware to relative sea level rise. at the same time we are america's energy coast providing the chemicals plastic and fuels that allow it to exist and along the way these industries employ thousands of louisianians providing them with a better living in future. the relative sea level rise and the need to continue to power our economy and to power the families creating that economy is in balance and louisiana and no one speak to that tension how to balance it better than mr. lancios. >> with that i yield. >> lilia sanna is the size of delaware and it's huge.
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every 100 minutes louisiana loses another piece of land to the ocean the size of a football field so serious stuff. thank you for joining us and introducing jason. now mr. albritton now ask you to please proceed with your statement. >> good morning chairman carper, ranking member capito and members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. as you said in the introduction i work for a global conservation organization captured all 50 u.s. states and 70 countries and territories around the world. where'd organization that relies on a science-based and collaborative approach and we believe climate change poses a significant threat to our
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committee are economy into nature celebrated this chance to limit the impacts of climate change is to ensure by 2050 we have risked -- reduced come -- and missions and this will prep require significant sequestration of essays the transition to cleaner technology and a cleaner economy is underway yet we need to increase this transition. carbon management technology by carbon capture and storage and direct capture are important tools and can play a critical role along with reducing emissions of capture carbon. as huckabee said in your opening statements and houses by the intergovernmental panel on climate change the ccus demonstrates the important role by carbon capture technology can play in meeting clinicals. in the most recent report six of the seven scenarios they evaluated require carbon capture
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to limit two degrees celsius. carbon capture is project important for reducing emissions in the industrial sector where can contribute nearly one fifth of emissions reductions needed to meet targets under the paris agreement. industrial processes like the production of fuel are central to modern life. often options to reduce carbon emissions which is why carbon capture technology can play such an important role. direct your capture must also be up ready for development. even as we reduce our greenhouse gas emissions we will likely need large-scale removal of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere to limit temperature rises. this technology when combined with proven natural solutions to address legacy carbon pollution that's been building in the atmosphere for more than a century. the good news that has been mentioned congress has taken important actions in recent years to spur carbon management technology. the use of act which this
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committee developed along with other bills and muster the bipartisan infrastructure investment jobs act doubled down by investing over $12 billion in carbon management technology and interrelated infrastructure biggest investments lay the foundation for rapid scale up of carbon capture and direct air capture and quickly investing in these funds and implement the new authority for congress has provided is absolutely essential. we will need additional tax credit that will play a key role in the widespread commercialization and deployment of these technologies and long-term extension coupled with enhancements such as increased credit values for direct air capture and direct pay options are critical for building on the momentum we are already seeing. we congress to pass these critical changes to the credit. moving forward increase
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attention should be placed on delivering carbon capture projects in carbon utilization and directed air projects on the ground in ensuring deployment is done in a quick yet thoughtful and careful way. to achieve this they are couple of actions they can take but one is what would you refer to as land-use planning considering the impacts of friend to expedite deployment of this will help ensure ccus is supplied with as little impact as possible with culture resources recreation and others. engagement of committees is also essential to help avoid unexpected consequences that will lead to delays in project delivery and finally improve court nation among permitting authorities will enable more efficient approval. the steps are critical for rapid and responsible deployment. we must also seriously consider the concerns and essential impacted communities at it historically experienced the impacts of pollution -- pollution. i'll help avoid receiving the
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path until the support is essential to rapidly deploy these technologies for a federal agencies responsible for approving carbon management projects will be adequate to sustain funding for doing this community engages men and permitting. to wrap up time is of the essence when it comes to climate change. we must act now using all the solutions at her disposal including carbon capture utilization and storage and direct air capture. federal support captured -- coupled with thoughtful planning an early effective stakeholder engagement help ensure these solutions are available the scale and within the timeframe we need. we appreciate the bipartisan leadership on this issue in this committee look forward to continuing to work with you on these and other important climate issues. thank you i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much for your testimony and we will ask you questions in a couple of minutes. let's turn to mr. townsend.
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i think you are joining us remotely, is that correct? >> that is correct. i am in columbus ohio. >> glad you could join us from columbus, ohio. please proceed. >> good morning chairman carper ranking member capito honorable members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about the critical importance of carbon capture utilization and storage or ccus in carbon tax or oval technologies. my name is brad townsend on the vice president of the center for climate and energy solutions. we are an a nonpartisan nonprofit think tank based in arlington virginia whose mission is to secure a safe and stable climate by accelerating emissions the nets their greenhouse gas emissions in a
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thriving resilience community. extreme weather events affecting every region of the country we believe that technology inclusive approach will accelerate the transition to avoid the impacts on the changing environment. their two key points it like to make during his testimony. first carbon capture utilization and storage as well as carbon removal technology must play a crucial role in helping de-carbonized the global economy. it's important decided asset these technologies are not silver. ccus is a vital tool to mitigate emissions and carbon removal technologies showing promise from hard-to-reach sectors. neither technology will allow us to continue business as usual. the deployment of these technologies will only reduce our dependence on fossil of his accelerate the transition to zero carbon energy.
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still in a recent report by the international energy agency brode "mag reaching that zero it will be virtually impossible without ccus. these technologies can cost effectively address emissions have powered industrial facilities and tackle hard to abate subsectors. technologies provide his foundation for carbon removal technology which can help lower long-lived greenhouse gas sequestration by the national academy of sciences estimated the u.s. will need to remove one gigatons of carbon dioxide per year by 2050 equivalent to the energy related co2 emissions in california and texas combined. the work of iija will include the use of carbon decks her mobile 2 the united states leads the world the development and
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deployment of these technologies to spur the compactness of the best take centers while creating opportunities to export new technology that can help the rest of the world the carbonized. ccus carpenter of the projects must build on the foundation of early and continuous come into engagement and meaningfully address takeover concerns. doing so can provide significant economic benefits for communities including job creation. recent studies estimated carbon capture retrofits existing industrial power facilities could. up to 64,000 jobs by 2035 and as many as 70,000 additional jobs by 2050. large cell appointment of direct air capture could. a thousand new jobs nationwide across construction engineering and equipment manufacturing sectors while supporting communities and develop skills to leverage those competencies in a netzero future.
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there he will need a comprehensive framework that builds on recent legislative assessments to support the entire ecosystem for ccus carbon rove ccus carbon rovera. they are three areas that we need to focus on. first upstream investments in innovation including research development and demonstration. second downstream policies like extension and expansion that can help. and grow market and technologies in third facilitate the of the structure that can provide promising technology. all three areas of policies are necessary. supporting technological innovation through spending without creating market demand will strain technologies and labs will provide a market incentives without the enabling policies leading deployment stalled below its potential.
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robust policies across the entire innovation ecosystem celebrated the point is ccus help me climate economic justice brett thank you chart topper in member capito for hosting us during the opportunity to speak with you today. i look forward to your questions. >> take so much. are you familiar with the polar research center at ohio state university? does that ring a bell with you? >> it does not ought to top my head. something i'll look into. >> i received earlier this year of publication from ohio state university and they had their pictures on the front of it and it's a great story, a love story
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but also a great story about their courage and their rates of west virginia and how they found their fame and fortune. thank you. >> mr. chairman i have visited their lab. they have samples from glaciers that no longer exist. >> they are able to look back in time of hundreds of thousands of years. it's amazing stuff. and they give you trips down to the mountain. it's just extraordinary and amazing people. i think we are now ready. mr. lancios are you there? pronounce your name force please loudly. your mic is on mute.
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we want to hear every word. i'm told you pronounce your name lancios. >> the s is silent but you did a fantastic job. chairman carper thank you so much for have me today and ranking member capito and members this is an unbelievable opportunity to tell you about what we do and i'm thrilled to be here today. i feel like a lot of the coastal talking points with senator cassidy and senator carper have a very big appreciation for what we are facing in louisiana. we are losing land in louisiana and that statistic of 100 the size of a football field. i had the benefit of being able to work for the coast
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restoration authority and really being at the forefront of what i would call big changes happening in laci ann a. he gave me an unbelievable appreciation for climate and looking for solutions of things to move louisiana the right direction. as senator cassidy mentioned we have an unbelievable manufacturing base in louisiana. we have the one fifth of the nation's oil capacity. they are located along the coast so it's very much a working coast and we have a lot of people who live in the area that even impacted directly by climate change. when i came came over in 2010 and set down the secretary here as we had what i would call in-depth discussions about things we could do to move our department forward but also to look for solutions. one of the things we are working on was called the verifiable carbon management and we took a step back and we said there's really an opportunity for us to
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be able to apply this in the industry and look at our mission profile programming that is when you look at their we have the profile to de-carbonized and of that 220 million metric tons most of our emissions are 65% from industrial-based users of some some of these ventures is like ethanol have a very mixed stream profile which when you look at carbon capture is a very expensive mechanism to capture. we quickly realized we need to work with industries to find solutions so ccus is something we have put a lot of time and energy in. we recognize we have the staff and house when you at our department office of conservation we have 38 folks in that office who apply for regulatory -- with the environmental protection agency. we will be the third state mission to get regulatory -- and
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the reason that's so important our staff we have a great engineers who are excited about working in carbon management and we have hired an additional six people to focus on carbon management who are going to be working with the industrial operators to get permits of the door. we prioritize free tours -- resources and it's a major fork is up for long-term management. it illustrated to us it would be an unbelievable solution is for governor signed an executive order in august of 2020 to create the climate initiative tech source in the gulf coast state and in a state such of louisiana by climate plan is something that was very innovative the time. those conversations as you can imagine were not always easy. we were meeting with a lot of stakeholders across-the-board who have different opinions on what the best solutions are oppressed we felt comparable --
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the things we were pursuing in rapidly as scaling up production offshore winds solar of those things have to work together. the end of the day there's not a singular solution is going to solve all of our problems. for us we continue to go back to look at the long-term management and ccus or showed an unbelievable promise and i'm here today to tell you over the last several years the first meeting we did what we call our industry day we actually had to get our plans to come to the meeting because there was a lot of interest over the past two years. the companies who want to do this as a long-term solution are telling us that future act will allow members of the committee to move forward and a lot of us have worked so hard has been a complete game-changer for something that's going to be a viable solution in the future.
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i'm here to tell you where jim excited about the tremendous opportunity for us to work together and to leave it about the things put forth by this committee that are getting federal agencies to work together and solutions have been instrumental -- and the more we do that and come up with, common solutions to move this forward i think we are all going to win at the to win at the to win at the end of the day so thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to tell you about louisiana and i appreciate being here today and having that opportunity. >> very sobering thoughts. during this. of time -- we can do something about it enough so we'll discuss today. finally mr. harju, it's great to
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see you and thank you for being here. >> thank you chairman carper ranking member capito and members of the committee and senator kramer for the kind words an introduction. my name is john harju and the vice president for you university environmental research center. we are business unit of the universe at north dakota focused on practical solutions on the m. barreto challenges. the e. or c. was founded in 1951 at the research laboratory under then-president truman and the united states. with the creation of united states apartment energy in 1977 he became one of the nations by
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the energy technology centers and we have been part of the university park count disco to pay their mission has evolved considerably over that time focused on the utilization of our resources with the mississippi river to one that focuses on all fossil does as well as renewable alternatives and the environmental challenges associated with the development and utilization of technology. the global population continues to grow the nations of undeveloped economies try to improve their citizens quality-of-life the need for reliable affordable energy only grows. with a limited ability to meet growing energy demand in these coming decades to continued use of also feels will be needed to maintain our standard of living. the only way to meet the demand for more energy is within all of the above energy strategy with a mix of resources including oil gas coal nuclear and renewables such as wind and solar.
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ccus is a versatile technology in any meaningful attempt to mitigate carbon in the atmosphere and reduce the carbon intensity will -- and then turn the goal of. we have had the privilege of serving not only apartment energy but also more than 200 nonfederal partners across the entire ccus chain. her field experience in commercial scale operations with the wealth and knowledge of ccus project from permitting to construction to operations. these projects remain possible because of ongoing robust financial support by the department of energy's fossil energy and carbon management program and are more than two to partners and the state that we work with. eerc is one of the original seven sequestration partnerships in the region that ultimately stands 10 u.s. states and four
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canadian provinces. we call this the clean co2 reduction partnership. her current goal is to use the knowledge and experience gained over the previous decades to address the current challenges and to accelerate commercial deployment. each of these areas within the partnership has an economic engine and each of these engines represents the primary mission of co2 but it was apparent than gauging her stakeholders that with these economic basis there is a particular accelerate the deployment of technology and to play it commercially for the opportunity we need to develop economically motivated strategies. and i would have economic driver such as low-carbon fuel standard fare business cases and unprecedented interest here in the united states and globally. the economic drivers are only one factor. comprehensive rules regarding the legal aspects such as for
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space ownership and long-term liability as well as clearly defined communication pathways in inability to directly interact with regulatory agents are key tools in facilitating commercial deployment. north dakota is a first aid to be granted by missy for the classic program. as of today only wyoming has joined us with that primacy as we have heard from mr. lancios and we hope louisiana will join the exclusive club soon. my team has been helping with the number of states as they contemplate or apply for that primacy in sharing our experiences in achieving it. the states include texas west virginia alaska utah colorado louisiana the brusca montana and kansas and again including -- i can testify commercialization is beginning world world examples
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are numerous. an essential complement is transporting co2 from where it's stored in a pipeline is the most efficient way to do this. i plans for co2 have been operating the u.s. since the 1970s and even shown to be safe. they pose a manageable risk and a framework for the construction and operation of the state and federal level. again i thank you for your time today and thank you for the invitation to be here. >> we thank you. in terms of questioning today we will start off with senator whitehouse and capito center cardin senator kramer myself and back to senator capito. >> thank you met chairman. i had an appointment at another committee and i appreciate you taking out of time. i think it's indisputable right now that we don't overrun our climate safety barriers
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particular had 1.5 degrees and because of that we must be able to remove co2 from the atmosphere. once you're out of the safety zone going to zero emissions does not help you any longer. you have to clawback the access legacy carbon dioxide to get to safety and that to me is just a given as they forage a pathway to safety here. this is a pretty well-established technology they think the boundary project in saskatchewan kicked off in 2014 with proven liability of carbon removal and they use it for in hands oil recovery which to me is the disfavored use as a puts carbon that could system after having removed it. i think direct air capture as the witnesses have mentioned are absolutely essential because again you don't get to a positive outcome if all you are
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doing is carbon dioxide out of smokestacks. direct air capture has to be an absolute priority in this work. i think in that framework we have done the good preliminary efforts in the senate to solve the fundamental problem of this industry which is it revenue. it's hard to get innovation happening if there's no revenue reward at the end of the day for the people who design and build these plants. we have done that through 45q and using public tax deductions as a revenue source but also limited the scope of the program. i hope to see it continue to grow. at the end of the day it will still be a limited program compared to having the market operate the way it should. i also have the cpr built with
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senator coons that i hope we will be able to move quickly with united states government comes in and apart proprietary capacity and thereby have carbon. those are two ways by making you as a customer and providing tax benefits we can begin to establish at least a framework for a revenue proposition that gets us there is some at the early age -- stage a debate or mom is that the industry needs. at the end of the day the real solution has to be carbon pricing. without that you take away from market to market signal and i think if you connect the carbon to carbon order adjustments what you end up seeing his huge net value for the american economy. with carbon border adjustment even if we do not just pay the tariff let's just say we are and we don't keep up and we don't pay the tariff.
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on balance we are still winners. although we lose with the eu we gain and a mourner -- an enormous amount because it's also a tariff in china and india where manufacturing takes place in its creating a price differential that will cause a move of manufacturing to the united states. and that is a win for the american economy. at the end of the day if we don't get carbon pricing and carbon border adjustments done we are just whistling. we'd like to talk big on innovation here but you can do innovation while stifling the policies to give the innovation of the oxygen which is a revenue proposition. if i could ask in the seconds remaining mr. albritton or
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mr. townsend to say a word on the importance of having a robust lasting market revenue proposition to support this industry and because my time will run out maybe if we do that as a question for the record to all the winces if you'd like to comment on what i have said i would appreciate it and answer in writing will go to the record in that way won't have to hold up my colleagues any longer. would that be are right? >> happy to do that. >> much appreciated. thank you for being here. we have a big bipartisan opportunity and i look forward to taking advantage of this. this committee can forge compromises that can make a big difference. >> we look forward to your responses of our witnesses and with that senator capito. >> thank you mr. chairman. mr. lancios is clear from your testimony that their number projects because of how louisiana has translated
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expertise to oil and gas development into the expertise and carbon capture storage companies looking at onshore and offshore and how does that work? >> thank you senator capito. at the present time the state has to space agreements one with the facility and another with the sustainable use facility located on state lands. those were two agreements or done with agreements that have set the standard for moving forward on how that's going to work. we have interest in offshore. right now we are working with their federal family to look at how that permitting structure is going and what agency is going to leave. three miles offshore weekend -- we don't currently have any projects that are looking specifically at doing that other than right now this might be a
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viable option. we have interest mostly firmer lng interest in louisiana. most of the interest i would say probably 90% has been offshore right now but we are looking at long-term management making offshore resource something we can put carbon dioxide in. >> could you discuss the proximity of the conventional oil and gas operations like petra chemical facilities of ex-economy of scale of ccus and do you know how expensive it is and does this proximity provide a ready workforce accustomed to working with these projects in december amid? >> our industrial corridor provides what i would call an unprecedented opportunity because most of the source materials located in a geographical area. we are talking about 10 or
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20 miles so that helps tremendously when the force bases located close. as we look at the carbonates in the 62 or 63% of her emissions coming from the industrial corridor it's very helpful for us to have these sources located close to each other. as we contract tended to roll the project that is important he can get facilities into the mindset to take carbon dioxide out and bring hydrogen into those facilities to help up long-term management of emissions. for us that's been strategic in terms of how we look at projects. we have developers that put information together looking at coupling sources. >> are you doing -- do you have any projects in oil recovery with what's going on right now? >> understanding is we have three and two are active. 11 is an agreement of most interest we have seen in terms
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of ccus has been 90% has been -- so there are pretend these were operators have looked at the -- but the bulk of her interest has been storage. >> mr. harju congratulations on north dakota being the first state in the nation to be on that as well so well done. how is that specifically helped her state and doesn't encourage project development in moving projects along and what kind of effects have you seen? >> thank you for the question senator capito. we have seen a pretty substantial proliferation of project proponents in the state. at this point the state has issued three facility permits. we have our first commercial project operating.
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we have half a dozen more permits either with a decision pending or permit applications ready to be filed. these range from power generation to gas processing to ethanol facilities at an bringing co2 in from out of state. >> you mentioned you have one that's federally working. is that correct? would you describe that one in an example and came describe that one for me? >> the first is associate with the ethanol producing facility near no pic at it. we have a series of wells were co2 mentioned by senator kramer earlier injecting co2 into one of her most prolific formations
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in the state. we expect many tens of millions to be stored in conjecture that project. >> the pipeline from wyoming into the southwestern north dakota was recently extended by 125 miles from southeastern montana from a project that my team has worked closely with since -- the predecessor encore oil and gas since 2005. we have been at this a very long time. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. senator cardin please. >> thank you mr. chairman and let me thank oliver for this very important hearing. i'm very proud of the work being done in the state of maryland where legislature has an aggressive plan to deal with carbon emissions in reducing
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greenhouse emissions by 40% but the year 2030 and to reach 100% clean electricity by 2040. i might say that's well ahead of the nation in regards to the international climate meetings. we know there's not one particular way that we will read those targets set the ccus is an important part of the overall strategy for maryland in and our nations with regards to carbon. as they point out there is no one tool and they just want to associate myself with senator whitehouse's comments that it would not only accelerate ccus. accelerate our ability to reach our carbon goals. i want to talk about a couple of other issues here. in maryland we have put a good
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deal of confidence in restoring the wetlands. wetlands are natural ability to sequester excess carbon. to me it's the low-hanging. we have used our dredge materials to restore a popular island and now midday which we have been able to get a recognition of the economic benefit and environmental benefit costs associated with traditional locations for dredging sites. we have also looked at using dredged material in blackwater to restore the wetlands in blackwater. yet from the point of view of the environment june generally it will sequester carbon as part of this. mr. albritton let me ask you if i might as we look for ways to
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sequester carbon shouldn't we look at ways in which we can utilize restoration projects such as wetlands as a way to assist us in achieving these goals? >> absolutely. natural solutions are a key part of that and conservancies own research shows one bit that our mission goals by 2030 can be achieved including her wetlands better management for forest deforestation and agricultural lands for carbon in soil. we see an opportunity here to complement the technological solutions were talking about today and it's a smart place to start. >> i would also suggest an area that's a bit controversial as we look at a new process and use that to establish the real cost associated with transportation
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and for structure including impact on climate. and using another tool to help us reach these goals on carbon emissions. in maryland we have also worked in conjunction with six other states with regards to the midwest carbon sequestration partnership. you may want to comment on this as to how states can work together to advance new technologies and knowledge and how the federal government could encourage that type of cooperative effort in their state. >> it's absolutely critical we think about how we transition to nuclear technology and transport co2 and crossing state lines in many instances. that quotation is critical in the federal government can play an important role in bringing the states together to oster that collaboration and the oak
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fire act -- the oak fire at. state leadership is important and how states can work together to advance technologies. >> mr. chairman my point is this we do need federal policies. we need states to innovate in the weekend of other states. we need original compacts in order to work together and we need the private sector helping us if we will be able to reach our targets of carbon emissions and i think her witnesses for their contributions. >> thank you for those questions in thank you for your leadership on these questions. it's inclusive.
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next north dakota. senator kramer thank you. >> thank you chairman carper. again i thank the witnesses. i want to add one point to the example that's been talked about in response to senator capito's question especially since my friend from wyoming is sitting next to me. that example generates net negative carbon oil as result of injecting into old wells and it's a very important point that we have not brought up yet read mr. harju the white house talked about a value proposition essentially a profit opportunity in all of this. with her guard to the tax credit system very different values. not every target is created equally. have you ever done an analysis
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on the benefit of the 45q credit versus the credit for electric vehicles for example in terms of a dollar. ton or a ton. dollar comparison? >> senator kramer thank you for the question. i was recently asked to give a comparative assessment of conceptualize 10,000-dollar ev ev credit and what that would equate to it on a ton of carbon basis. in my valuation gave me a price between $20,300. ton over the life of that vehicle. consider they are going to run somewhere in the neighborhood of 120,000 miles and they will have the fuel efficiency of 23 miles per gallon. they will net a total of 50 tons
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of co2 over its entire lifetime. electric be it la serna zero so considering they take their power from the grid you normalize grid signatures and the fact that there is a lifecycle associated with the battery and so on. it will net about 15 tons of co2 in the life of that vehicle. again your net savings would be about 35 tons and $10,000 you are approaching 300,000. >> $50 a ton or co2 stored in conjunction. soon exceed one up to $80. >> it would be a relative target. >> i want to follow up with something that senator capito asked about him that is of course the primacy that north dakota has in wyoming and other trendy gift.
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can you give us a little bit of comparison as to why is this important and what is the benefit versus states that don't have it versus the federal government response to all of this. >> i think the proof is in the permits. to the best of my knowledge of believe the federal government has issued this permit in the state of north dakota is issued three with several pending and we have only had the primacy since 2017. >> why is that do you think why is it a doing better than the federal government? >> i think in the state they are more familiar with their local geology and the opportunities of the state and regardless of the permitting authority the federal oversight is on the wells themselves so plastics program does not deal with access and
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ancillary things that are necessary for construction and operation of a ccus site. our state past geologic storage rules prior to the existence of the program. and ultimately we need to secure that primacy even though we previously had comforts of roles including utilization provisions etc.. >> how long does the permitting process take? >> in the state of north dakota the average thus far for each of those permits is about seven months. my recollection of the one federal permit was on the order of five or six years. >> in the reigning seconds can explain how it optionally works the amount of carbon storage compared to the downstream emissions from oil because that is part of the program.
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>> absolutely. denver has done a fairly extensive analysis of its own operations and they estimate roughly a quarter of their operations especially those industrial sourced the co2 each of those is a net carbon negative production operation. her own research in southeastern montana verified long-term geologic storage are average stored volumes over the course of a project suggests it's on the order of approximately 1/2 ton of co2 stored for each barrel of oil. >> thank you. thank you mr. chairman. >> we are joined by senator kelly.
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senator kelly welcome. >> thank you mr. chairman the dais unanimous consent to change the temperature in this room through the thermostat. >> i object. >> unfamiliar with these things in a work pretty well. thank you. mr. albritton good morning and thank you all of you for your testimony today. this question is for mr. albritton and mr. lancios. i want to begin with the two of you. as many of you know i supported efforts to permanently were authorized the permitting process which i believe is a critical tool that helps large projects in the permitting process which can be rather complex. it's especially critical for the federal permitting process to delay projects that can help us fight climate change which is i'm why i'm glad the sub eight act clarifies that carbon capture utilization and storage
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projects are eligible for that process. mr. albritton and mr. lancios in each of these speak to the potential benefits associated with allowing carbon capture projects to utilize the process? >> i think the process offers a lot of opportunity. there was legislation i was deeply involved in what i suspect from the committee and deemed the value boy could do. it encourages agents to get together early and to coordinate permitting instead of doing it sequentially. that type of coronation as i highlighted in my testimony can really help project to be more efficient so we don't go to agency by agency by agency that figured out what. he matar in the most efficient and coordinated way possible.
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>> senator kelly thank you for your question and they think mr. harju articulated the point well. they haven't had any permits filed in the states thus far so the numbers are very small. if we proceed with what we are doing we think that number could be in the neighborhood of 25 to 30 permits the next two or three years so rapidly changing how quickly we need to assess these permits. our area. emphasis thus far is to try to get regulatory primacy because we feel like we have an extensive staff who can look at the geology and make the decisions more quickly in addition we have the opportunity to get outside help to come in. what it brings to the table for us is what was richer by a mr. albritton agencies working together early in consulting with some work into these projects would help tremendously because the workload itself is going to change based on the
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level of interest we feel to be a will to make an impact to get these projects out the door developers and folks who are doing the project we have to make sure that clarity in how these permits can be turned around. we cannot afford five to six years so making sure folks are coordinating need to be first and foremost in this project. >> you think the council of environmental quality has done enough to allow projects to take advantage of this process? >> to my knowledge i don't think the -- it's a step forward in some the project developers to come forward. that's something that's needed. the action taken in response to the sub eight act is an important step toward and there's always more that can be
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done. that's a good start on the process. >> i think in addition to task forces they are talking about in terms of looking at storage i i think there will be a lot of interest in terms of moving those forward very quickly and making sure the right orders are in place. land rights continues to be first and foremost and let me look at offshore we need to make sure resources are in place and with a clear understanding of what the process is. >> thank you. appreciate that and thanks again for being here and mr. chairman i yield back my 14 seconds. >> glad to have them back. >> thank you mr. chairman think you breaking member capano for hosting this hearing and senator
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cramer and i have been sitting here proud of our two states and their leadership in carbon capture utilization and storage. there has been a lot of forward-thinking from policy leaders. university of wyoming school of energy resources involving energy authority have been involved with you all in north dakota and a real genuine progress substantive goals are being met and thank you for that. my first question is for mr. harju. thank you for your testimony. i understand from dr. holly peck at the university of wyoming we will soon be calling you dr. harju so congratulations on that. i want to focus on what aspect of ccus is geological storage.
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mr. harju you mentioned your testimony one of the challenges expanding geological storage is a the complicated legal and regulatory regime around ownership and long-term stewardship. can you talk more about what north dakota and wyoming have done to address these challenges particularly around long-term stewardship? >> thank you for the question senator. north dakota and wyoming have had a wonderful working relationship for a long period of time and i'm delighted to call him a friend and colleague. our states have shared our experiences over time and copied one another's successes and avoided one another's misses. it's always been a pleasure.
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with respect to long-term liability nd established a long-term liability trust fund because of concerns that companies may not be around in perpetuity and the fact that a trust fund would be a reasonable way to manage in a long-term ccs project. way that this works in north dakota as companies pay into this trust fund over the life of their project and based on essentially you can contemplate it like a state run insurance fund is the way i would look at it. north dakota after tenure post closure monitor period both sides are monitored at the expense of the project developer and the state is authorized to make title to that. i believe a similar program in
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wyoming has chosen a post closure monitoring period of 20 years. >> thanks for your explanation. i think this is part of an example of the coronation is going on and expanding geologic storage. so good on you and good on our state camp and proud of the work you are doing. my next question is for all the witnesses. should ceq export expediting cc u.s. permitting is a way to encourage and support carbon capture? there are always opportunities to be more impatient and permitting in the guidance laid out how we can do that by regional approaches and other tools that they have. that has to be balanced with making sure we are doing thorough reviews and getting
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strong community engagement and they we have good outcomes at the end of project but i think we can achieve those. >> i agree very much with mr. albritton's comments that coronation communication from all federal agencies with the state is absolutely essential to move these projects forward. these permits are extremely labor-intensive and we understand the modeling in the physical assets for classics as some of the most expensive out there right now for having folks at the table working together is absolutely essential so yes. thank you. >> i would concur. i would especially the federal government to work towards a responsible means of permitting accessing federal work is a big issue is to get to the west for instance in senator lummis' day. have the status under federal
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for space ownership and right now i do not see a means of accessing these kinds of projects. as we contemplate projects we step away from it because they see it as a more. risk factor than opportunity. say thank you all for your testimony. >> sorry, for chiming in here purchased underscore an area of agreement is certainly true in order to meet climate goals you have to deal to build a wide range of clean energy with zero carbon if the structure including ccus. it's also true growing number of organizations on both sides of the spectrum acknowledge the system we have in place is not currently working and so there's good work being done by folks for example in promoting transparency and coronation
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which would be really critical and there are certainly opportunities to protect the vital community environment while allowing the country to build the destruction we need. thank you. >> thank you gentlemen. appreciate your testimony could i yield back. >> thank you center lummis. great to see you again for the second time again. faithful attendees do we appreciate that. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you tour witnesses for being here today as well. mr. harju fuels have allowed us to cut emissions from the transportation sector for decades. between 2008 in 2020 we have -- gas emissions and it's only
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getting large at this point. biofuels further reduce greenhouse gas emissions of carbon capture and sequestration technologies and conservation practices which many of our iowa farmers are engaged in. mr. harju in your testimony mentioned the need for an energy strategy to a nice importance of the environment through lowering carbon intensity as well as economic and national security. can you talk more about why ccus is important to them all of the above energy strategy? >> thank you for the question senator ernst. i will offer quote from the governor. we can reach carbon neutrality in the state of north dakota by 2030 without any additional regulation. we can get there through
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innovation and the agility that we have. this has been a fundamental tenet of how north dakota will be a carbon manager and ironically some of that carbon dioxide that we intend to manage will be in the state of iowa. one of the project opponents and declined the client on my team is looking to gather carbon dioxide from different ethanol plants many of which are in your state into the state of north dakota and south dakota in the state of minnesota as well. that talks about the importance talks about important apartheid system that pipeline system that would take carbon dioxide from places that do not have geology that's favorable for direct source. >> i appreciate that. i'm very familiar with energy
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and agricultural sector and what's exciting to me about the ccus technologies is the ability to dillbeck carpet relationship. in your home state of louisiana governor edwards is made carbon capture a priority for the administration. and maybe describe more how has louisiana been working with landowners to ensure support of those -- and i'm sorry this is for you mr. harju to ensure broad support or the co2 pipeline to avoid using eminent domain because right now that's an issue for some of our ag land. we have experienced those that are using eminent domain and those that are trying not to use eminent domain sophie could just address that. >> absolutely. thank you senator. it's a good question.
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three years ago when we started with this process early engage what is critical so we have a couple of associations one is the landowners association where he did a series of recitations executive campell -- counsel brought in landowners and folks who are using pipelines to look at permitting pipelines to really look at ownership issues. i think that committee was an judgmental in educating folks in terms of what these projects look like in terms of what we would need. we have a number of co2 pipelines that traverse the state. obviously it will be a need as we look forward. early and often engagement is essential in working with landowner so they understand these projects are critical and what their overall intent is in our state. i think the committee has been very successful in educating folks about it. >> i appreciate that and making
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sure the folks engaging in a project are well advised on how it will impact them and their future with new technologies coming out. i really appreciate the hearing today and thank you tour witnesses to thank you so much really appreciate him put in thank you mr. chair. >> thank you so much. i think everyone else has had a chance to ask around the persons. at several questions of my own then i will yet to senator capito. you have not disappointed at all. the newest assessment report issued earlier this year by the united nations international climate change is clear. carbon capture utilization and storage technologies are not the only answer to climate change. must be part of the climate solution could let me say "urban
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capture utilization storage technologies are not the only answer to climate change. but it must be part of climate solution. specifically they report suggested limit global warming to 1.5 degrees celsius by the hand of the century when the global usage of carbon removal technologies and direct their capture. this will be a question for mr. albritton mr. harju and mr. lancios. testimony identified the importance of co2 in our battle against climate change. what each of the three of you take a moment and speak to the need for additional large federal investments and other zero admitting to allergies so these technologies are able to be deployed quickly into our
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economy? in your answer please discuss the cost every american and if we fail to make significant investments in climate solutions this year. mr. albritton do you want to lead off? >> i think as i highlighted my testimony we have had a lot of progress. the investment jobs act invested $12 billion that's a strong foundation but we have to do more. for example an important additional policy to drive investment and we learn -- we need long-term investments. renewable energy to hydrogen and we also need that same type of federal investment to have the transition happen in a quick way. there are clear economic benefits. there is the economic cost avoided if you avoid the impact of climate change as i related
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in my opening statement to senator carper the cost taxpayers with floods and wildfires. these investments can create jobs and create jobs for communities so it's important to realize there's an economic benefit. if we don't make those investments we are putting it all on the table. saying thank you. mr. harju. >> thank you for the question chairman carper. investment is a crucial downtime and on the future of ccus carbon technologies. there's more we could be doing things like increasing the efficiency of regeneration of the use of materials to capture carbon dioxide potential utilization a critical
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opportunity in the research side to market these products. i also want to pick up on a question that jason touch on which is about the need for broader investments in these type elegies by there's a lot more we could be doing on the hydrogen site in more broadly as well he mentioned during your opening remarks some of the work on extreme weather and climate related events. we have had more than nine exceeding a billion dollars this year in the united states which is greater than the average between the years 1980 in 2021 so we are already seeing the impact of climate change. these investments to pay dividends in terms of reducing those long-term costs that impact the community but also there's a low-carb and economic opportunity of $26 trillion globally by 2030. we want to take it manage up
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that opportunity. this is the moment for policymakers to make -- take significant steps to invest in that future future. >> i think you. >> chairman carper a fantastic question. what we are seeing in working with doa and federal partners they are estimating we need in the trillions of dollars for decarbonization so every program i put forward we are going to develop efficiencies and we are going to develop economies of scale. we will get that are at reducing hydrogen -- producing hydrogen. with ccus is critical to get the cost down in we have done a lot of economic analyses and understood their challenges to get there and $50 a ton is fantastic but a lot of industries that are working working to do carbon isil need more funding in a manner where they can rapidly deploy this technology. indiana getting those cost down is going to be essential because want to make sure these projects
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are beneficial long-term but also financially liable. >> it off handed back over to senator capito from her questions. >> thank you mr. chairman. i'd like to follow up from where you left off. a tax credit to make the projects go faster. there've been discussions of direct pay of a tax credit. do you think that is something we should seriously look at india. opinion on that? >> sorry. >> senator capito. as i mentioned earlier in my testimony in terms of economic
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analyses as we were going through the process of looking at the cost per ton to 50 versus 85 when i was still in place one of the analyses we saw showed as we got to even 85 to $90. ton that potentially 90% of the industry in the state of louisiana potentially utilize carbon capture utilization storage where the economics would make sense so 50 is a tremendous start and it would ring 40% of the industry to the table. edition what was left on in the conversation are the smaller operators and smaller industries that don't have a lot tax liabilities and don't potentially have much use for tax liability. for us many the companies we have spoken to have said that could be a game-changer in terms of direct pay would a tremendously beneficial in the deployment of ccus projects earlier rather than later.
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>> thank you. there was initial discussion in several of your statements about communities that are heavily impacted by a missions. there has been discussion on this committee as well as to how to help those communities and in my view i think industrial use of carbon capture is a tremendous way to help those communities obviously from co2 emissions. isn't it also a way, if carbon capture is occurring say in it refinery has been there forever are there other pollutants that are removed as you are cleaning up the carbon in cleaning up -- as long is that the case and
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mr. harju i will go back to you. ..
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that has to be part of the equation. think we make that part of the conversation about where we deploy this technology and importantly, get input from those communities that live there. it's part of the process and understand with their concerns are. i think that's also an important part to make sure we are addressing these concerns. >> thank you, thank you. >> counselor recently issued cc u.s. guidance, as directed by the music act recognizing the
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climate change benefits from deployment as well as a possible public health and environmental impact. especially for frontline communities. some of our colleagues have stated ceq guidance does not adequately expedite the appointment of projects and have suggested additional reforms are needed. at a time when federal agencies are still developing best practices within the existing permitting processes to support the deployment, how do you think the implementation of the user act is going? do you share the view early public engagement and u.s. permitting process is likely to lead to a more efficient approval process? >> , i think important progress has been made in implementation of the act would be talked about a number of the provisions of their we are seeing progress including the guidance as well as the announcement this morning
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about nominations for the taskforces. i do think, this is my answer to center capitol as well that early engagement is really important. in making sure impacted communities are at the table early in the process. think that is critical think the guidance recognizes that and that is an important part. if we don't engage the communities early, that concern the opposition to these projects will build and that will ultimately delay deployment part that does not serve any of our interest rate that is a critical piece we really have to focus on. >> thank you. just as a follow-up comment would more resources for federal as well as state agencies to review and approve carbon management projects help expedite the process? and if so why? >> absolutely. doing a robust permitting, doing good community engagement, takes resources and we have to invest in that part think we often
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think about investing in the technology for investing in other asked aspects. but this is an important piece. if we all share the goal of a rapid deployment of these technologies this is one of those places we have to put more funding into. i think often is not in the same discussion we have to make it, princeton net zero analysis that was released recently looked at carbon capture deployment. they estimated by 2035 would need to invest nearly $13 billion in stakeholder engagement, permitting, site assessment were going to deploy these technologies the skills we need. i think it is a good indicator why this is that such an important issue and why we need significant investment. >> thanks for that. mr. townsend, like to direct another question to you. direct air capture is one type of cc u.s. technology that can remove existing co2 from the atmosphere as we know. direct air capture technology offers virtually unlimited carbon dioxide removal
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potential. if other barriers can be overcome technology also has important advantages in terms of citing flexibility and scalability. mr. townsend, would you take a moment please and describe for us some of the benefits of direct air capture technology in comparison to other carbon removal approaches? and even the most important thing that congress could do that we in this body could do in the near term to help direct air capture technologies be quickly deployed and commercialized the scale. >> thank you very much for the question senator. i think there are really two chief advantages of direct air caption and he touched on them, scalability and citing flexibility. not only is this technology deployable and it really is significant scale, it can also be coat located in either access renewable power or even access
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and nuclear capacity as well. i think the chief thing the principal think congress could be doing at this point was already a part of the conversation around the extension and expansion of the 45q tax credit which be adding $180 per ton credits the ef for five cupid which would go a long way toward facilitating projects, edition some of the work that has been done that works to capitalize on shared infrastructure are also key. but really the extension and expansion of 45q would be the most significant priority. >> okay. center caprio place in a couple more questions regrets i do not have any further questions mr. germany doing to express my gratitude to you into the staff and the committee for putting this together. i think it is really refreshing to have a goal of cleaning the
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environment and d carbon icing or we can both come from each side of our aisle print sometimes it's a very sensitive subject. we can work to find solutions and i think that's what we have heard today per got really good suggestions on ways we can improve this. very excited about the future of this, thank you. >> i am excited to. my colleagues has heard me quote albert einstein too many times among the things he said was in adversity lies opportunity. in adversity lies opportunity. my wife things i'm too much of an optimist. i am an optimist. i've always been an optimist. i think there is reason the climate crisis is going on around the world for there's a real opportunity to take some of these ideas we are discussing today improve them and go to work on them. not only address the climate crisis but also provide for
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economic opportunity, job creation which is for me it's not the golden rule but is exactly where one is to go. okay, couple more questions if i can. then we will wrap it up. let me see, it may i couldn't move to a question for the entire panel. i appreciate the prospectus the entire panel has shared with us. on the opportunities and some of the challenges with carbon capture utilization and storage. i hope this dialogue can help inform action to support the future deployment of cc u.s. innovation and deployment. i would just like each of you to take a minute or two and tell us where you believe there is common ground among all of you on this panel. i always try to come back to where do we agree question but there's plenty of areas we can
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disagree, but always look for consensus among the panel especially one as good as this one. if you would all just give us your thoughts, where do we agree? i will start on my left, go ahead please. >> sure, i think we've heard tons of agreement on this panel which is encouraging. i think a couple of different areas that i have heard, one i think the continued federal support and investment in these technologies with its 45q or other means i think is a pretty shared perspective. because it will be vital to continue to scale up these technologies in the years to come. i also think the idea of how do we better coordinate as we try to deliver this so we are getting all of the folks around the table weathered state agencies, federal agencies, or the outside stakeholders. i think that is in a shared priority i think we can do much more in that space. that is an opportunity.
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>> chairman, i think at the end of the day for us and as the panel has expressed there is hope we have solutions. i think for us that is most exciting paper state like louisiana, we have gotten to the point we have seen four and five at record storms that have happened per year in the last several years. this gives folks an opportunity to say we are working toward solutions. we are working together. folks are coming together to employ the best available technologies. we are looking at things in a very comprehensive lens we think about her communities remain a priority and folks understand why we have to make these investments. i really appreciate your support in all of your committee staff support to really put this dynamic legislation together to put 45q in a position to really make an impact for change. >> all right thank you. >> certainly i can echo those comments. i would say growing the 45q values at lease commensurate
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with the kind of inflation we have seen. i know on capture projects we have on the cusp of implementation we have seen prices of steel considerably total installed capitol costs on one of the projects we have been working on is gone from right around $1 billion to almost 1.6. you see the effects of the monumental inflation we are experiencing. it will be really nice to see that in the credit values as well. i would urge anyone who can be helpful, to help grow that primacy club and extended to our colleagues in louisiana. and the other states who were eager to move forward with these kind of projects. and finally, i just implore everyone, let's focus on the admissions and carbon reduction as opposed to fuels themselves. i see a lot of discriminatory action regarding the sources of omission as opposed to the
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things that we can do to mitigate the emissions. >> all right, one more we've got one more guest please. >> thank you chairman. and thanks again also to you in center capito and your teams for holding this hearing. it is incredibly important in this moment. i would echo the panel certainly seems to be a lot of agreement. that is a very encouraging thing to see think if you think stand out to me whether it's been pretty clear consensus including the fact cc u.s. and carbon technologies have to be part of the solution to address long-term climate mitigation. secondly, there are significant opportunities, economic opportunities to employ these technologies that benefit both domestically and globally, presuming there's early and continuous public engagement and
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working with communities. the last area where i heard a lot of agreement i think or you just touched on, policies going to be really important to help not just drive these technologies but really to attract the private sector it's going to be necessary to deploy them the scale and speed that is needed. so thank you very much. >> thank you very much. my last question is a question i sometimes like to ask. we have a little time here, i want to say you prepare these hearings, you've prepared for them probably for much of your life actually. the work you do is just so important. i always ask questions i think my colleagues asked very thoughtful questions and you provide thoughtful responses. each one of these at the start of the meeting is there a question maybe think could have been asked, should have been asked you like to say maybe you should have as this one too and here's my thought? is robert why don't you go
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first. i don't believe we have asked every good question. so maybe you have another one? >> you know, i think we have covered a lot of the important issues around the technology and the deployment. i think of one issue we have not focused on as much because this hearing is about carbon capture but how does carbon capture fitted with all the other solutions we have to deploy to address climate change? clearly it's an important tool. i think that's an important question moving forward but we have to look at this in a lot of different solutions and for really going address this problem. >> thank you, mr. townsend may beat one question you think we didn't ask that we should have asked? >> thank you. i would be keenly interested in further discussion around the workforce needs in terms of the skills adjustment touched on the fungibility of skills that
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traditional, oil, gas, other sectors that really building out a deeper set of knowledge about what is going to take to facilitate and build the workforce that we need to deploy these technologies but it would be an interesting area of discussion for. >> good thanks. >> yes, sir. think at the end of the day, i think for us one question would be as a state, we are advanced in her application. i think it's important for states considering it to understand what resources and what is ahead of them in terms of how they can be successful in getting primacy in deploying ccs in their states. we've been trying very hard to work with other states to provide. i know his team has been really a great resource for us as well as wyoming for they have come to us and helped us with training. i think just making sure states understand the process and have all the associated resources for community engagement and also for staff. again, we are successful in deploying and we do get to a point where we have a multitude
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of permits they get filed, the last thing we want happen at the end of the day as there is a tremendous backlog. making sure resources are in place and we have a plan to be able to move these projects forward and move these permits forward is absolutely essential. >> all right thank you. lastly, question maybe we asked, should have asked that you would like to share with us? >> yes. i guess the one i would think of is regarding the linkage between energy security and carbon management. in my opinion you hear a lot about a carbon constrained future. like to think about a carbonate managed future. and as you look at the part of the world that we are from, economic activity and carbon utilization and a turn emissions are linked.
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being able to effectively manage the carbon is our real challenge and real opportunity. i guess that would be the one i would focus on three. >> okay good, good, thank you. last thoughts? >> , one of the questions i like to ask people, not going to ask you all, but when the peoples i ask people what gives them joy in their work or in their life? more often than not what people say is i like helping people, that gives me joy in my life. where the best things, people of this plan is make sure we have a planet. the people of this country want very much to find ways to work together to get stuff done. that's about as important as anything we are working on. there's a great opportunity for us to make real progress, real progress. it is encouraging time we spend
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together. i just want to thank center capitol it was a great idea. i am so pleased were smart and if to say a good idea. [laughter] i want to thank your staffer don't think staff on the majority side and everyone who has participated today. it is clear our climate goals rd carbonized certain sectors of our economy without carbon capture, utilization, and storage technology. congress must be ready to support rapid responsible deployment and promote solutions that we discussed here today for the last couple of hours. been here for a few hours now. the last two hours liaison has lost two more football fields. i know it's a big state compared to mine. they will eventually run out of football fields. we have a sense of urgency for
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all of us. before we adjourn low housekeeping pretenders will be allowed to submit written questions for the record through the close of business on wednesday, august the tenth. and we will compile those questions and send it out to all of you. we would ask you tried to reply to us by wednesday, august 24. and with that, with a deep sense of gratitude this hearing is adjourn, thank you so much. [background noises] [background noises]
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