tv Kristin Henning The Rage of Innocence CSPAN August 10, 2022 1:28pm-2:18pm EDT
>> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's stories and on sunday book tv brings you the latestin nonfiction books and authors . funding comes from these television companies and more including media, the world changed in an instant but media, was ready. internet traffic soared and we never slowed down. schools and businesses went virtual and we powered a new reality because at media, we're built to keep you ahead . >> media, along with these television companies supports c-span2 as a public service. >> kristin henning is a trainer and consultant on the intersection of race, adolescent and policing . she is a professor of law and director of the juvenile justice center initiative at the georgetown university law
center. from 1998 to 2001 she was a lead attorney of the juvenile unit for thedistrict of columbia . awards she has received include the leadership price from the juvenile law center and 2013 robert e shepard junior award for excellence in juvenile defense from the national juvenile offender center. her latest book "the rage of innocence: how america criminalizes black youth" was described by georgetown paul butler as a lucid analysis from a brilliant scholar at the top of her game. and by the washington post as comprehensive, meticulously researched, written language accessible to lawyers and laypeople alike and most importantly articulated realistically with forms that are in reach right now. kristen's advice on how to honor the black children who are so oftenempowered by our justice hesystem is simple . tell her story. in the wake of worldwide outrage and high-profile
examples of f racial injustice and inequality the rage of innocence sheds light on many lesser-known but equally troubling examples of how discriminatory and aggressive policing has criminalized the most ordinary adolescent activities contributing to the socialization of a generation of black teenagers to fear present and resist of the police. christians book brings not only attention to the issue of policing and criminalization of black youth but provides a persuasive and powerful call for change.she said she intends this book to be a call for action that will be a helpful guide to practice training and policy with which she attempts to facilitate by offering the reader common sense ways to change the ways our children ofcolor are viewed and treated . i can say kristen is a father of a biracial middle school are in washington dc and writes themetro every day and has already begun to ask me
questions about the intersection of race and policing . i appreciate examples and hope the change that she can provide. johnny is adam schwartz, his debut collection of stories won the washington writers listening 020/20 prize for fiction. his stories have won prizes sponsored by writers philadelphia stories, baltimore city paper and have appeared in mississippi review , december magazine among other sources. his nonfiction has appeared in the one he review, the new york daily news, washington independent review of books and other publications and for the last 20 years is taught high school in baltimore. would you join me in welcoming our guests today. [applause] >> thank you so much. >> i'm so excited to be so talking to professor kristin henning and as i got myself ready for this interview i was looking at a video of her collie paul butler interviewing her and he began by saying he thought he knew the subject well, the
criminalization of black youth and what he learned from reading professor henning's book is didn't know it and i feel the same way. i'm in the year 24 of teaching high school english in baltimore . i've spent a lot of time with teenagers in classrooms over the years and i thought i knew the subject also the book just revealed so much that i didn't know. so i just want to begin by saying that a lot of your book is really about how normal, routine adolescent behavior orit's criminalized in black youth. could you begin by sharing some of the ways this happens ?ye >> i think maybe the best way to start that is to maybe start with the story. and i'll tell you a story about a young child that i represented named eric. eric was a 13-year-old boy at the time who on a saturday
night was watching a movie and in the movie he sees someone making a molotov cocktail. and his 13-year-old brain says that looks cool. let me see if i could make something that looks like that. he doesn't research it, he doesn't ask anybody to makeit , he just goes into the kitchen, grabbed a glass bottle and begin support in whatever liquid he can find. lysol, bleach, water, whatever and then he grabs a top and my favorite part of the story is the case of use of toilet paper and runs the toilet paper from the inside of the bottle to the out. all of us here know toilet paper will burn out before it gets the top . he shakes it up so it looks like a molotov cocktail. he plays with. he saturday night and he forgets all about it, puts it in his book back. next you know the morning is
mother drives into school. he puts his book back through the metal detector and a security officer says to him what is that to which he immediately says oh, that is nothing. you can throw it away and he goes on to class. he doesn't think anything of it. little does he know that is the beginning of a nine-month ordeal in our nation's capital juvenile courts. he's prosecuted for attempted arson and possession of a molotov cocktail . here's where really the contrast exists between what rwould happen to him as a 13-year-old african-american nd boy and all-white child. i went to, i gave a talk not too long after this in connecticut and i told the story, it's part of my talk and: hecomes up to me. she comes up to me and she says to me my son did the exact same thing. and i said what happened to him. he got placed in advanced science classes. it blew my mind.
that is sort of one of the many stories i tell in this book is just sort of the origin of why i really as long as i've been doing the work i've been representing children in the nation's capital for 26 years and i really wasn't until that moment that i just really realized just how much we criminalized black children for just the most adolescent typical behaviors. everything from the closethat they wear, the music they listen to . talking back to adults. experimenting with all the things, i will show your hands but all the things we did when we were kids and all the things that our children did. and is not to say that we don't want to redirect or correct children but the question is how do you arrest them, do you prosecute them, but secure detention facilities, do you stigmatize them? that's one example, there are so many.
>> quite right. the detail about the white kid was essentially awarded for the same thing, that struck a chord with me. as a teenager i was somewhat addressed. i dropped out of high school i was impulsive, thrill seeking . i saw the attention of my friends and i always had a soft landing. i had so many second chances. i was always forgiven, always the n the benefit of doubt and eventually i rated myself because i had somany chances . so that really hit home for me. when i think of the impacts of implicit racial bias, i think first of young black men and how it affects them. i used the now years of stories from young men coming in to class and i mean, it's
so routine it hardly gets my attentionanymore but being stopped by the police . sit on the curb, empty your book back. often when they're just getting back-and-forth to school or on their way to work. and so when i think of the impacts of implicit racial bias i think first of young black men but your book makes clear that young black females are in no way anyone from this kind of criminalization. could you talk about thata little bit ? >> when i started writing this book people would say are you going to have a chapter on black girls and i was clear i said no, i'm not going to isolate it to attack chapter. i wanted to leave it through my book i go out of my way to find examples, not even try, it was easy. they're readily available as you know from being in baltimore city schools . so one of the things is in addition to the stories that i tell i weave in the
research so there's been really powerful research on the ways in which lack youth have been notified meaning they are perceived by us, all of us. civilians, by law enforcement as older thanthey are . the research shows that black boys are perceived to be more than 4 and a half years older than they are. that's a huge impact so if you see a 16-year-old child, black boy he appears to be 4 1/2. he appears to be 20, 21 years old a similar research has been done on black girls. interestingly enough georgetown enter on poverty and inequality to a powerful study finding that adults tend to perceive black girls as older, more mature, more adult like, more knowledgeable about adult topics. less innocent and less in need of protection. again, having an absolute impact on the ways in which
you engage with a child when they are doing again what kids do. impulsive, reactive, emotional sensation seekers. all those things so past black girls are given that. there also treated as sexually promiscuous so all of the myths of the jezebel minutes are still very much alive today and you see them in the ways in which dress codes disparately enforced against black girls in many public school systems. >> you say some interesting things about sort of very typical adolescent attire or the clothing that a lot of kids wear. hoodies. i've got son, he stays in a hoodie all the time. you say some interesting things about the clothing. the hoodies, the baggy pants. can you talk about how these
features of a tire are also used as kind of weapons against black kids? >> i can ask in this crowd how many of you were in the riviera ? here's the question. think about the tie-dyed t-shirts and bellbottoms that were associated with the era and associated with drug use, hallucinogens and the like. we never criminalize. we never made it a criminal offense. about the all black attire and straight black hair young people wore during the goff era. we never outlawed that even though it at times he came associated with mass shootings.ho they steel toe doc martens that some groups, not all but te some white supremacist groups have endorsed as their
clothing attire. we never made that a criminal offense but think about what we do make a criminal offense . it's against the law in some states or cities and city ordinances to wear saggy pants. i don't particularly want to see anyone's underwear either abut should it be a criminal offense? should it be the basis for a stop by a police officer, a press, and unrest. all these things are talking about.t you approach a child who knows that they're being singled out and the encounter between an officer and a child goes from m 0 to 100 and becomes something much more serious than just that sagging pants violation so understanding that and then the hoodie is not outlawed but to be clear on black child in a hoodie is perceived to be a threat and danger. so absolutely, clothing has
been one of the enter ways in which black children have been stopped and criminalized for normal adolescent behavior and i want to say one thing when i talk about the criminalization of black youth oi'm not just talking police officers in a blue uniform but again i talk about policing as proxy. all of us as civilians for inclined to pick up the phone and call the police when we are afraid and we have to ask ourselves, why we're afraid. >> i love your expression fairness fanatics. it is so spot on about teenagers. i was thinking of the last time i had police interaction . it was pretty minor and uneventful. it was seven years ago, i was close to work in baltimore and i got pulled over by for
making a right turn on red. i was allowed to make it but i didn't come to a complete stop so i was pulled over and one police officer on was on my driver's side curiously another police officer was on the passenger side and he had his hand hovering just above his gun or a this encounter. and nothing much came of it, i think i got a warning and it was over pretty quickly. but the image of that police officer just to my right with his hand on his gun is kind of asked in my mind. he didn't do anything anymore threatening to me than simply standing there with his hand near his gun. and i was thinking of this a lot during the book . this very minor in counter with the police bmade a big impression on me. and so among the many very moving stories you write about in the book you talk about, you tell the story of
kevin who was stopped more than 50 times by police and i think there are a lot of people in the world, perhaps a lot of white people that can't imagine what it's like to be stopped 50 times by the police before you're 20 years old . to tell a little bit about kevin and his experiences? >> absolutely. kevin was a 17-year-old child that i represented and one day we're sitting in the office and georgetown we run a inclinical program representing kids and the aphone rings and it is kevin and kevin is calling to ask us is there all warrants out for my arrest and so we it was a very strange question because he had just seen him the day before. he had been in court with us the day before if there was a warrant for his arrestthey would have picked them up from the courthouse . we can hear his mother in the background yelling boy, you're just being paranoid. it turns out kevin had been sitting in his window of his
home looking out and he could see a police car parked in front of his apartment complex and there were two officers who had been in the car and they had been sitting there for two hours. he was terrified to go on outside because he was convinced they were waiting for him to come out so they could arrest him. so as i heard the story and i thought about it i said to myself he's not being paranoid. he's traumatized. and for me that is really what made me think into the research on the trauma and so your story is that policing encounters are not de minimis and i was just having this conversation yesterday with court officials in indiana that we think, we often take a temporary stop or even a traffic stop that maybe a minute, two minutes, three minutes arguments but they are a have a lasting dramatic effect especially on black
and brown children. so i could tell more about it. there is a growing body of research documenting the extraordinary psychological trauma that black and latino children in particular experience in contact with the police o. children who grow up in heavily surveilled neighborhoods were schools or who are just the frequent target of stop and frisk and the research shows that young people who have the frequent contact report high rates of fear, nxanxiety, depression, omhopelessness. they become hypervigilant meaning they're always on ig guard. not trusting police officers and distrust of law enforcement transfers over to other state actors, teachers, counselors,court officials . all folks who might be an ally and ice age officers, i do training for police
officers and i say this isn't anti-police conversation. you need to understand the blue uniform carries with it a a history of race relations in this country and then add to it the contemporary examples of high profile violence by the police really need every time a teenager particularly a teenager of color engages with an officer bringing to that encounter fear and trauma in ways that are critically important and then what's really significant and powerful about the research is that it shows that a young person does not have to be the direct target of that police contact to experience the same kind of trauma but just like kevin in the morning and having to worry about becoming into contact with the police produces a similar level of trauma and anxiety. >> i was struck by in the book your use of the word hypervigilant. that's normally a word i feel like i see connected with war veterans who come home after
serving in war. so that's really disturbing. so i was thinking about you know, when i had experiences over the years with kids who might be difficult in one way or another, oppositional. it's been a along time but i've been cost at by kids as a teacher, we're kind of trained or expected to de-escalate, to smooth problems out, make the problems smaller. to find a path forward that both you and the student can function productively. and i find myself wondering over and over again as i read the stories in your book why isn't this more of an emphasis for police? why isn't the installation, problem-solving, conflict resolution. these kinds of values more
woven into how police do their job? >> that's a beautiful question and it lies in the fact that i think the predecessor question should be why do we have ppolice engaged in the livesof children in the first place ? how do we radically reduce the footprint of police officers and law enforcement officers in the lives of children and that helps explain why they don't have training. police officer comes to the scene and is trained in the academy to do what they always done . to investigate, to intervene in violence. they're not trained to be teachers, mental health counselors, advisors, mentors. not to say they can't do those things but it's never been a part of the traditional framework for law enforcement and in fact, we did some older research i think from 2015 found that
less than one percent of police departments across the country had any training whatsoever on juvenile justice or on youth and adolescent development. even in more recent research in 2019 they found that police officers assigned to schools that more than 60 percent of them had never been trained on an adolescent brain. unbelievable. no de-escalation, none of tthat. there's been a recent push to make that happen but the question is it's not part of the dna, it's not part of the framework . >> it seems like such a terribly urgent needamong police . so you write about how increasingly many schools including schools in dc look more and more like prisons and i've seen some of this at
high schools. the kids get bonded down, they get their book bags searched. sometimes these measures come and go. one year will have it and veanother year we don't have it but we don't have it now and i've seen kids get pepper sprayed by school police which is a really terribly disturbing thing to see up close and personal. the last time i saw a student get pepper spray in school in the hallway it could have easily been the e escalated and the kids immediately began arriving on the linoleum and vomiting from the pepper spray . so i wanted to ask you about what the impact. i've seen how this alienates tkids. the one thing, the searching of bags. some kids don't care. some kids are put off by it.
i've also seen how it can e depress attendance. could you talk a little bit about how many schools increasingly look like prisons and are staffed by police and i guess we can get to it but one thing your book brought home is once a kid is caught in the jaws of the criminal justice system, it is as if they are at the mercy of just some really destructive impersonal forces that go to work on them and all that is sort of set up sometimes by police in schools. >> yeah. it's interesting and this is one of the conversations that i think across political divides creates the greatest uncertainty and questions
which is this notion of the role of police in schools and whether they should be there or not and iwill say this . i for the longest time doing the work for years for the longest time i accepted the often repeated narrative that we have police in schools today because parents and teachers were afraid to send their kidsback to school after the mass shooting in columbine in 1999 but as i did research for this book i learned a ton of new stuff . one of the things is i should have known this but that the first police in schools appeared in 1939 at the earliest conversation about even the possibility of integration of schools and then police in schools increased exponentially in the civil rights era. under the guise of facilitating a safe passage for black and brown students who would integrate those schools but we know from the historical record and from iconic photographs that far too often traditional law enforcement ended up being an impediment to full meaningful integration of schools.
now fast forward to 1991 and we have the national or association of school resource officers is created eight years before columbine ever happens so it's been up school resource officers for mission statements, training curriculum, fast forward to 1994. that is when the federal framework for cops in schools was created. that's the federal framework that allowed the federal government to funnel money into state and ultimately local school systems that would indeed hire police. that's how we got this radical increase in police in schools so then 1999 comes, tragedy in columbine happens and yet there is again an uptick in funding but where to the police officers get sent? the research shows they get sent to schools with a predominantly black and brown presence. they're not sent in droves to
the suburbs, to the sandy books, to the columbine's so now what we have is all 50 states have some schools with police in schools. more police in schools means more arrests in schools. more itarrests means more arrests of black and brown students which is what you are talking about . that's why we walk in schools . they taken military grade equipment in many schools and that's what's at the front door so when i have this conversation with folks who had been in a public school there shocked. absolutely shocked. metal detectors, all the things youtalk about . >> so despite the abundant evidence of injustice in our country and injustice in our nations history some of my nacvetc still persists and i was surprised to learn that police in schools was as you wrote was the result of the
expansion of civil rights and integration of schools. >> i was surprised to and i shouldn't have been. we allshouldn't have been when you think about it . >> some of what you write about in the book is that there are all these racialized assumptions about black youth that inflame fears, irrational fears. and you talk about the police officer who killed tamir rice in a country overwhelmed by stereotypes that associate black men with crime and violence and iagree that the stereotypes are deep . i'm curious about what you think. it's sort of easy to say that racism and injustice is in
our country's dna which would not be an untruth but i'm curious about what you etthink about how these very destructive narratives get sustained . for example i fought a lot about how local crime reporting in baltimore criminalizes black communities, apologizes black communities, criminalizes black men . so i see the sort of lurid crime reporting on the local tv news in baltimore as well as in the baltimore sun. i see that is really destructive. there's another in baltimore i kind of obsession in the media with counting more murders. it's almost like a fetish and it happens you know, every time there's a murderer and the number of murders is often compared to theprevious year's count, sometimes
compared to the highest years count in 1993 .and all this seems like a very destructive and also when crime gets covered, it's rolled out as breakingnews . and there's all this urgency around but in fact it's often just like a 32nd clip . and tells the neighborhood, it tells these skeletal facts of maybe an address, maybe the age of a person but nothing that ever contextualizes or humanizes om the people involved. this all seems disruptive. i've not heard on here about how i feel like local medias crime reporting is a very destructive force that perpetuates these toxic narratives. i'm curious what you think of our other sort of institutions in our country that are perpetuating these unhealthy myths. >> absolutely. media, politics, politicians who are seeking electoral support and what is the
number one issue of concern for yourconstituents? it's always crime. it's always the fear ly narrative . i think the really important point for us to remember is s that we've seen this time and time in history. whatever we have these temporary upticks in crimeand where in one right now . the immediate default is the fear narrative drives the agenda instead of research and science aboutwhat works , what are the best prodigies for public safety so we think about the perfect narrative and the example is the super predator. in the 1990s we literally our nation lost its mind. we bought into the pseudoscientific myth put forward by princeton professor john dileo who
predicted black children would run amok andrape and kill much of america. it became the driving narratives in so many ways . it had a lot to do with what happened to the now exonerated five and that's what drove us. we as a country have to be super imcareful not to default to that anytime there's a temporary upticks in crime particularly when it relates to adolescents . >> ..
>> think about kyle rittenhouse and how the unfolded before us. i have to say kyle rittenhouse's behavior was unequivocally quintessential adolescent behavior. 17-year-old child who crossed the state line, not thinking, he's impulsive, he's following his peers, why does he go his friends invite him over they give him a gun is not to get ahead to the long-term consequences and what happens he gets in over his head and he ends up taking two lives instant yearly injures another, what
does he want, his mother wants you and his lawyers want you to see him at the adolescent who got in over his head in the world agrees, he not only gets a fair trial he getsal due process and is allowed to walk out the door. you have a black child or a brown child who getshe caught up in the same kind of behavior, friends, impulsivity, he gets labeled a gang member because he's given a gun and we create him as completely beyond redemption this is really important the ways in which we respond to a narrative in the response even when it is a real offense with serious harm. >> thank you for that. i'd be remiss if i did not ask about your writing process, i really admire your style as a writer, you distill what could
be a dry legal doctrine and humanize the figures that you write about with compassion and restraint in very vivid ways. i wanted to ask you a little bit about your writing process. >> i should add 115 pages of notes in the back. >> do not be intimidated. >> that list your sources. the book in addition it's also exhaustively researched. >> you should not read like it's exhaustively research, here's y the deal when i wrote the book a long time in the making i wrote the first draft my friends who love me were like nobody's going to be that because i'm a lawyer, i'm a professor have you ever heard of published in paris i really wanted to change hearts and minds with this book i also really wanted to share the story, the pain and the trauma
of black and brown children and i cannot do that with the legal academic text so my friends would read chapters and they would say i'm going to need you to rewrite that chapter basically what happened all the research is there but then i went back and i layer every single chapter with stories of the young people that i represented in the nation's capital in the high-profile examples or stories we hearde about, rice, mike brown and the like but told in ways that aregu different than what do you think about but then i add research and data in plain language that is to be accessible to a legal audience as well as the mainstream audience. but i put notes in for the lawyers and educators. >> the last chapter ends on optimistic no you have ideas for reform and reason for
hopefulness despite everything to the last chapter, could you talk about your optimism. >> my optimism on unequivocally comes from the young people themselves. in the book is called black girl magic and black joy, the resilience of black analysts. i talk about the ways in which children of all races and classes, particularly black children have stepped up and become a voice for change, youth activism is thriving in our country right now and that is one way that i capitalize that. for those of you interested in more i started with eric story in a little preview i end with the story and how he's engaging but what about is the resilience, i think the other piece for me is as devastating as the season has been both
between the pandemic in between racial tension and police tension with african-american, community and other communities of color that this is a moment in our country, more and more people are interested in having this conversation even though the conversation is hard. we get more people in the door people who i did not see ass traditional allies invite this book and me into the space to have the conversation to do trainings with police officers, prosecutors, judges, teachers, educators, because the conversation is critically important. i will stop there those are to my two main sources of hope right now. >> i got you, excellent. i feel like i've been given signs that my time asking questions it has concluded.
>> do we have questions from the audience? does the microphone reach over there? i am curious to hear your reaction to how quickly beautiful meaningful terms like woke and black lives matter were turned into negative talking points by the right, that could include critical race theory as well and how you feel a mastery
of messaging on the part of the right and how essential is it that a deepening of openness or empathy among whites is necessary for progress. >> to beatable questions. i would say i write about your first question this notion you have a section of the book called civic engagement or violence or protest violence precisely because this is what is so fascinating, i'm sure you know this as an educator but civic engagement is now heavily promoted in the academic curriculum we see value and young people seeking out, we to promote activism and voice as a part of healthy adolescent development and as soon as a black or brown child who feels marginalized against to speak up in whatever ways
that they know how theyer become demonized and criminalized. here is the other thing that i say so interested the title of the book is the rage of innocence i say among other things the rage that every single one of us should have any time anyone's child is deprived of an opportunity to be a child but in addition to that it is also the rage that black and brown children have when they're told over and over again that they are dangerous, they are w unwelcome, they are speaking ouo of turn. what i say to folks, remember what it is like to be a teenager as teenagers, they don't have the words to articulate the way that we do when they are feeling unhappy and feel the discord. i say the police officers, a young teenager isn't going to walk up to you and say mr. officer i don't appreciate the way you are treating me. it does not come out like that. ulit comes out impulsive and reactive.
it comes out the way teenager does, yelling, profanity, cursing you out. it might be whatever it is but that's the way of protest and that's not what's happening with black lives matter or other activist organization but my point we need to be able to engage in embrace both theut entire continuum of what it means to speak out and t assert oneself. i say young black and brown children, any person any child with an ounce of self esteem and self worth should speak out at a moment like this we should honor that but yet we don't think it's an absolute messaging the the narrative in ways that are harmful and we need every ally i like to call them ally accomplices. every single accomplice we can get to engage with young people.
>> thank you. first of all i just want to sayh i was really excited to hear about this topic i used to teach in a detention center in d.c. and it's all black and brown we never saw a single white kid i just want to point that out for everyone. my question is is there any research on color wisdom, particularly darker skinned children being targeted more so than lighter skin, and my personal experience i've seen that but i want to know if there's any research. >> let me add to this, when i said earlier i was representing children in the nation's capital for 26 years. in the entire 26 years i have only represented for white children. every other child i have represented in d.c. superior court is an african-american we
should all gasp at that we should be appalled we are close enough to washington, d.c. to of whitee are plenty children in d.c. in impulsive reactive emotional all the things that lead to i delinquent behavior every person that you talk to in d.c. says the exact same thing. the real numbers look different across the country but the percentages, the ratios are the same the question about color wisdom there is a lot more research on color wisdom and the adult criminal legal space and the child space there are a few pieces and interestingly often in the school discipline context that what you see darker skinned students face harsher discipline in the school system than lighter skinned children. it's fascinating.k it dates back, historically in ourot country it is not just how much african-american or blackness in your bloodstream it is also the color of your skin that is more frightening.
thank you for that question. >> taking for your presentation i am in public health and we do racial equity in public health, i want to ask you how do you have self-care innocence of love for others in doing this work. i was reading his book, i have to put again i can't go to work working with white people and read this book i would have anger in rage how do you as a person of color understand not everybody is doing the work of racism that are harsh in our allies and accomplices, how do you keep yourself here and a sense of love and justice. >> i get asked this question all the time i do a lot of workshops and i say here's my answer, faith, family, friend, fun and finding your tribe i use the word brace all the time what i'm
talking about racial bias, explicit and implicit, largely because to be quite frank with you people will weapon their community into the country having heard these narratives that a been perpetuated for a lifetime. if they never had the opportunity and are exposed to the enlightened woke sometimes they get stuck in the ways. i had to approach people where they are, meet them where they are and i'm like they did not come out ofw the womb as it was racist ideology it was taught to them it's a learned experience, for me i remember that and i remind myself time and time again. in terms of finding my tribe there are wonderful wonderful people who care about this work and care about the health and well-being of all children, black, brown, blue, green so i associate myself with them. when i go in i do trainings and
workshops for folks who do not agree with me i cry a lot i cry at night but i get up in a vent to my friends, my allies, my accomplices who get it. there are days when i cannot take and i take a day off but by 'and large my work is great, its great to do work. [applause] >> thank you for being here, thank you for joining us for this conversation. >> thank you so much. [applause] >> at least six presidents recorded conversations while in office, here many of those
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