and how he has picked me up through my life. >> thank you so much for your time and for writing the book and for sharing your life story. thank you forth spending time with us. >> thank you for taking time to encourage people.

>> it's a pleasure to be here with you we are excited for your new book escaping gravity and so i wonder if you can start with why in your review did nasa need to be transformed? >> i have been at nasa in the 1990s working under the nasa administrator at the time who was working to transform nasa previous that i worked with a grassroots organization and then returning human spaceflight to more than just a handful of astronauts and that lost its way after the shuttle accident when they didn't have the ability to get more people in space.

that was the goal of the shuttle succumbing back to nasa with the obama administration i thought it was a natural goal to continue the transformation process and president-elect obama happen to agree. it says it's a memoir but it's over decades and that's why i wrote the book. >> so you said nasa lost its way? that is a big statement. what do you mean end how did that happen. >> we are talking about human spaceflight many things go very well and in fact it has usually been important and transformational even since apollo but it was to reduce the cost and increase reliability of human space transportation and it had not.

we had only flown a couple of hundred astronauts since apollo in the 30 years and we lost two crew, 14 people in a system that was clearly never going to be reliable the way it was designed it would never be cheap. and then to say we could land on mars in 1984 maybe that wasn't possible but most people agree spaceflight post 1972 with those advancementse and progress that most people envision her thats the agency intended. >> what were the main problems like a coldmi war adversary

military-industrial complex what was holding nasa back? >> that was all parts of it. we know we went to the man to beat the russians so we set things up in a race type of format and that meant we had to do things one time it but t that did not have a sustainable program they did achieve that amazing accomplishment, but it did not create an environment where you could do things in a way that left a more sustainable but costly program and it also gave some perverse incentives because companies and congress who developed capabilities infrastructure were incentivized to use those facilities which were

overbuilt for the mission of the shuttle to reduce cost of space transportation. nasa wanted to employy contractors and the people who worked in these institutions. and kept going made this program expensive by design instead of aviation program where the private sector really drove the innovation and then the government did assessed on —- assist with technology and with his tendency that they have been doing for human spaceflight in the early days the airmail act they paid the airlines to send the mail so they could invest in the capability because they had a customer. then they could go find moreov

it's a lot more than government payloads and people that yet we have not found a way to leverage the investment to expand the market and that is the t transformation that makes the change today. >> we will get in those dynamics but talking about apollo but after apollo people forget people lost interest in space and l the shuttle is dynamic that then they lost interest in that in your excellent book ist. coming out at a time with competing interests and the war in europe and inflation the pandemic is still going on and why we should care about this history is based policy which ois crucial in so many ways.

>> the unique vantage of space has given us unbelievable returns as a society of humans. we first went to space in the fifties but what we gained instantaneous communication has allowed us to completely change the perspective and new knowledge. and then recognized by doing that we are opening up potentially space for more purposes. for the government space program and the shuttle is less public support but we didn't understand the purpose. and then nasa tries to

re-create a purpose that struggling for the value and mind you are able to escape gravity from the earth because we had a unified goal smart people who had the same vision can do it we haven't had that was spaceflight. to be able to see why the government should put in the public money for that purpose the private sector we see people have their own reasons but for the government the unique purpose in my view is benefiting society. so beyond robotic spacecraft it is transformational me know the first photograph from the

far side of the moon taken my astronauts started the environmental movement. but we go with our astronauts when we go to space and i believe there are plenty of robotic things to do as well that for humanity as a species that no doubt over the long-term if we want to survive we need to be a multi- planetary and beyond species so the very early beginnings of that are underway today. >> jumping into the narrative when you are coming into narrative as the deputy administrator the space shuttle is on its last legs

there is a program called constantly on —- constellation over budget and overscheduled what was the situation you were walking into is a deputy administrator? i left in 2001 and now in 2008 i was asked before even being deputy to lead the transition team for the incoming obama administration the human spaceflight program was in disarray. what that difference of opinion on that and then to dean that necessary we cannot yrecertify the shuttle what should be very expensive. but what we found was off

track but then delayed five years but if are going to keep it going but only after within the budget profile the space station but the plan we knew they wouldn't really do that but to protect the next administration into giving more money. >> itt just isn't strike me as something i should do was to lie to the president i had to uncover it or lie. so to get a blue ribbon committee to look at the human spaceflight program those who

did not have an ax to grind or a couple of wonderful astronauts and then they came up with the same scenario that we did that uncover the problem of the program and gave us some options but when we made a decision to go for that wasn't popular and as we outlined in the book i took a lot of the blame. but the truth is so many people really did agree with something had to be done. >> what was constellation and why was it so badly managed what was going on there quick. >> it was a government owned and operated program along the lines of apollo and it was established to doe. all things. it was to start with a capsule called orion and then ares one

to take astronauts to the u space station after the shuttle retired of course the speciation would not be there but the longer-term goal was to have an even larger rocket on the ares five to take us back to the moon astronauts on the moon again. but the review shows we would never get to the moon and the fault is no different than what we experience today initiated to continue the shuttle contracts keeping many going at the congressional district and then you keep going. so when you can come and do

that you can succeed. >> this is impossible but this really isn't what g we should be doing to sustain progress it is no one's file it is just the system set up in the should get large amounts of >> emblematic and then with that and then lockheed martin endorses your view. and then to support the cancellation does that surprise you and once you knew that's what you are going toward unity that would set off a firestorm. because on the transition team

and then to pretty much aligned with the committee later came up with. and then to say this isn't something you should keep investing in. and confident is not the only way to i go forward. i have talked to him enough yes you are getting money. so we were all ready to announce this in october of that year. the white house was very concerned about the vote for healthcare and a close margin

to pass the 60 votes in the senate with the democratic leadership and they decided to incorporate the decision with a budget process. that meant we had to involve many more people for the national economic council and the office of science technology policy, omb that nasa didn't want to do it and the budget process has to go to the administration from the agency prepared budget it didn't add commercial crew i tried to get them to change my boss at the time was just ready to do with the nasa people wanted to do and wasn't listening to the white house. so they told me how it went it was very clear what the president would choose but we got the answer a couple weeks after. it did not surprise me.

>> this is a memoir so as you go through that experience and trying to cancel a major government program to the most entrenched interest in we will open the book with the scene or a letter was sent to nasa with white powdery substance. so can you talk about what you endured quick. >> it was disheartening something that was very well studied again in the 1990s indeed we are already planning to launch cargo with the previous administration but

because administrator didn't agree having a woman did not have a technical degree and to be physically threatened and that was very surprising and scary. and then i realize these are not good people who are fighting unethically and illegally and the status quo i scratch your back and you scratch mine. that is not what a country should be doing nasa security

was alerted a few times they would never tell me details but were credible enough that i played have a security detail even walk me to my car in the nasa garage. that means a call is coming from inside the house. these are people i hoped to lead to a better future and who i knew were frustrated but they were also very body into the current program. the data they can get rid of and then didn't go anywhere. >> you mentioned charlie bolton the nasa administrator former astronaut marine corps general and then generally but

then you had some significant differences. and then the lack of trust. >> yes i would've tried not to talk about much of this because charlie is a person we vewere very friendly especially in the beginning. and deservedly so for the accomplishments he has made. that the administration first of all had not selected and then he had phone on the space before and senator nelsonha fought this is after i

had already not been named publicly been askedad to serve. and then to formulate the policy and the report was underway. charlie came in late but really it is the president who we all work for and i understand from his interview if he can pick his own deputy and rahm emanuel said no and then charlie said what if we don't agree he said you both work for the president so we don't expect any problems. i know that i and seen as the outlier but i wasn't. and my choice as a deputy to be senate confirmed do you

follow your immediate boss or the president? i was nominated by the president. charlie could not fire me. he tried a few times that was not approved by the white house. when it became clear he was working behind the scenes against the president and my biggest regret is not being able to develop a trusting relationship with charlie. don't think he is bad. think he was listening to the wrong people who were self invested in the status quo. he such a nice person. he doesn't want to question their motives. >> so do you perhaps come from a different background with a tradition on astra astronaut you have a name in the book for them what are the space pirates what do they represent who are they quick.

w>> it was leaving called space pirates because i refer to them in the book as the people who raised me when i first came into space community and their goal was to create a space burying civilization with others to be open to a handful of astronauts just beyond government owned and operated. >> but it doesn't seem logical so i refer to them as pirates because they are controversial and depicted throughout science fiction in many ways maybe the property rights are not exactly known yet and it just so happens a couple of years ago the trump

administration started the space for senator ted cruz in a hearing we can run into pirates in space you have to call them something in the book to not describe them in the every time they don't really call themselves space pirates. >> they are on the fringes are the more mainstream now?

they are very much starting companies doing things in the eighties and nineties and the technologies and the money and all the things you need with the policies but those space pirates were merging alliance in a lot of ways sometimes i like to call themselves new space. i don't like that because in its own space and nobody wants to be old space so in front of us we have a future that everyone knows requires. >> so let's talk about thes commercial crew program and what that was it was controversial ate the time but nasa would say but not by the precious resource are

astronauts now allowing the private sector to fly nasa astronauts. the one thing i'm most known for but it did not start with me as i mentioned in the 1990s trying to replace the shuttle with private sector for government owned and operated systems. and thatex made it very difficult for the status quo to accept what was called commercial cargo could have been expanded in fact in the accepted bids for commercial cargo, nasa had a section if

you want to bid to launch people that space x was the only one who bid which iser right before i arrived on the transition team. and in 2008 and 2000 and we were asked to put together shovel one —- of already projects. it was just over $300 million and i requested the money in stimulus from the administration. i did not get it all. i got half of it and that was very controversial on capitol hill because people started to realize in industry who are getting billions of dollars to build systems to do that, if space xnk was successful they were not have that opportunity anymore or could not charge what they were.

and how the battle came about safetyal. >> it didn't go smoothly the spatial retired in 2011. space x is now finally flying cruise. bad it took almost ten years and that we had to depend on russia to do it and a second provider still hasn't flown. >> there is no question without space x this would not

have worked as well. we always knew there would be a gap we should have programs and competition in 2009 officially it was supposed to end the next year. and those that we propose for commercial crew costing $6 billion over five years that we didn't get $6 billion not saying we could have done it that much sooner i do not want to takeib anything from

space x but there were other bidders it is very possible other bidders had they gotten the many is space x had not been there could have made it. and now with the large cost-plus programs nasa c is doing after almost eight years. and it would have been not just a gap that also for human spaceflight two d orbit the shuttle waiting for the government. i am oftenen blamed for ending shuman spaceflight. so i am a little sensitive to it but we were in a bad spot. a very bad spot we should've been funding the program. everyone should of been thrilled to have come up with these matching funds from the

private sector on schedule so we give it our best shot we did not do that. >> let's talk about space x for a minute. one of my favorite anecdotes that you told me when space x was approaching as they are getting close before they were flying humans but it was a version of the spacecraft so we count that story because it's such a great story. >> we had this commercial cargo program first that space x needed to succeed so we would trustst them.

and then to have that competitor from northrop grumman and this was supposed to be talking to the space station and the dragon capsule and wasn't going to be able to dock i happen to be able getting together with the president after the launch but with this problem we have to work this less than an hour or docking would not be successful each what has been a pretty big delay i went over to wait for her and found then understandably there standing inno the back of the room and i

wanted to get out of the way i had nothing to contribute technically but they were just watching trying to solve the problem i could overhear them and i think maybe i mentioned that to them. maybe they should work this out themselves space x figured it out in the time and i relay this when i saw nasa embrace space x the private sector then to be transported commercially so i say it like watching the grandparents where a parent or a dad shows

them how to put the worm on the hook but if they got something big they would grab a hold of the fishing rod and reel it in. and they were really proud. i do love that moment. >> and moments like that build up over time that builds the trust between nasa and the commercial sector over time and as a result there had been a cultural shift that gives much more trust to the commercial sector. can you talk about that? to believe from the very beginning that you have to prove it super talking about cultural change so how does that happen? >> me coming with a different

perspective and wanting to make progress over the longer term that was sustainable thisig is so clearly the only way to do it if you believe building a big rocket is a golden you want to do that and the government but i did not believe that was the goal. i believe itr was leaving the economy better off the national security better off in society better off if those are your goals then the how is driven by the why. so for my ym within the nasa space act we needed to go about doing this in a way that left a better world behind i truly believe it's on the path but i don't believe every single program is to be done this way based on the purpose

for something likeay one-of-a-kind unique like going to the moon of jupiter you will not get commercial companies to do that so the question right now is when to use what procurement mechanism to maximize the value for the taxpayer. >> this paradigm ofar the public partnership is the second part of your subtitle the launching of a new space-age with the government and the private sector working together with the international component but there's a lot of talk of headed toward a recession with the commercial space economy there is a lot of money flowing but is it at the point it is a self-sustaining space economy if there is a downturnce

how does that affect the new space-age? >> there is in much of the sector and that's largely driven by the fact space x has lower launch cost so much now we have launching satellites in different sizes for less money selects face it still driven by space x if you can get things into space cheaper you come but more important things to do and that would be the investments in the returns largely to do with non- human spaceflight. human spaceflight gets a lot of attention suborbital launches and of course you have astronauts are going soon

hopefully with boeing that is a new space-age we consider the first space-age and a lot of things differentiate it was about the cold war very much associated with the military all white men so it's about a lot of things but for me it's getting back to our roots of an amazing resource to help society. >> let's talk about the space tourism aspect because the shuttle was supposed to be flying private citizens. it would five so frequently and of course christa mcauliffe the teacher from98 new hampshire was on challenger in 1986 when it exploded in that program basically went away

nowsm it is resurrected by private industry. there is a lot of criticism there's a lot of rich white men going up as the first space tourist. but you talk about that in the book and the benefits of that. can you open that up now? >> i do eat quite it to the early days of aviation and again it is something that is risky the private sector got into right away and may be in thee barnstorming era which people paid to go one planes but a lot of them died and they did start charging money and that created a huge industry that they captured a huge part of the market and has benefited from so economically the return to new

businesses could grow to be important something nations want to do my question we don't agree with all the personal policies that they could just be spending their own money if they wanted and then working in an industry with a huge economic return to the nation and that is worth billions and in the late 1990s and then over the gain eventually if we survive long enough we are able to expand

outward what kind of values do we want? and the group of space pirates and those that are equitable. >> the economic benefits are there but also aren't there social aspects that there only 600 or so people who have been to space? you talk to allied of astronauts. are there any benefits just having more people from different backgrounds go toce space? there is this thing called the overview effect. it is that to be overwhelmed on the return and then working

across borders. if you ever not phone in the airplane? no lines but it is a value for more food get to see it or experience that from different backgrounds but when william shatner returned from his launch last year i thought he was eloquent about his reaction with a few minutes and the view in the perspective we don't select astronauts for their vision or ability to communicate and then select them for the reason to withstand and so

poets orf journalists or teachers. it is ironic that nasa early on is the recognition to contribute going to space but to hunkerch down. but it is a deep wound. and made it clear we are not flying more astronauts but the russians had taken over space tourism on the so use launch vehicle to the russian program that plays a huge part in the book because we had to count

on the so use after the columbia launch and after the shuttle retired. >> talk about the diversity of experiences then where they send the teacher and then a journalist they were down to the group of finalists. so we talked about the threats that you face so think of the misogyny and being a woman in industry dominated by men and the aerospace industry in general, you have worked hard to combat that with the fellowship and also had there been a shift of the landscape changing when you were growing up in the aerospace industry

quick. >> growing up in the aerospace industry in the eighties and nineties there were very few women. but i felt i was fairly treated on the nasa advisory council in the mid- 1990s. i think i was at least a decade younger and certainly the only woman there were some old-school sexual harassment with micro and macro inequities that we experience. there are a few of us but we bonded really when i got to be more senior and responsible for making decisions i got the most pushback because men and all of us really are not

accustomed to taking direction from women. that i' the dynamic is not that you are woman i love my wife and i love my secretary but why don't we have a woman president? why do we have very many female ceos quick. >> we don't associate power and assertiveness and strength with female characteristics. as i was coming into making decisions that were not going teto be popular of how the system was structured and my boss who was a man could not explain it or support it, i believe that being vilified had a lot to do with the fact i was a woman. i was attacked with a lot of gender language. you can always tell she

doesn't deserve this. you must be on your period. all my gosh. many horrible things. i don't believe it was actually about that in the sense they really just didn't want to change. i was an easy target. and i cared enough about the wfact that more people's opinions coming in with different than what had been contributing toward the leadership and vision in space was so important i did start fellowship several years ago when a dear friend died at the age of 36 of cancer in the aerospace community that has embraced this program and then we brought it up with another one for black collegiate

students who want their careers and aerospace. so together we are seeing a shift but the important thing for me is those ideas they are considered in leadership positions as are we all have work to do. >> going up against the status quo fighting over constellation and the residences we will cancel it but yet there is a compromise that is known as the space launch system isac we're talking right now can you talk about what happened there quick. >> the real debate and then to turn everything over to the

private sector or can nasa keep its share? because administration wanted to put the focus on things erlike getting healthcare didn't really fight for the nasa budget as proposed once the president selected it, it was hard without the nasa administrator without key democrats on the hill. so we had a pair of twos and they had a full house. what the status quo wanted to do and with those existing contractors are science everyone wanted to protect the web telescope we believe the government could have a big

launch program and the orion capsule could continue. those programs cost us together around $40 billion since he made the deal. they were supposed to be launched by the end of 2016 and have not yet in 2022. all this at the earliest that is in comparison and a half own private citizens on dedicated missions but we came out of the gates because of the success of space x from

the suborbital launches that is not comparable and they have launch their own money and big those vehicles it's much bigger and to take more and that would go almost as heavy a payload that would cost $40 billion. it was very frustrating for me because we didn't have to do it.

so that something in 2010 or 2011 it was obvious. tens of thousands of people have dedicated to doing that. >> it doesn't leave anything behind but each launch will cost $4 billion that is in addition so launch on the falcon heavy for 150 million but if we put a program together to allow the private sector to build bigger and heavier vehicles we know it would have been more successful nasa could have taken those dollars and invested in the things we really need to expanding the

horizon that people like in the 1960s it is a glimpse into how washington works with entrenched interest in politics and could be taught in a business school as well. and it is a memoir of finding your way or combating those interest in a male-dominated sphere but what do you want people take away from the book? and right now we are aware their own past inventions are

creating patterns to make the earth uninhabitable in the future with climate change there are incredibly valuable things with the space program often times we see the billionaires saying we are doing this off the planet to save earth. we are not that i'm not sure the timeline will work. so for me we have a unique opportunity to use what has been a brilliant history of space exploration and development to save ourselves and do it in a way that can leave the planet better off we have the ability to use the technologies that we have and new ways of setting goals to utilize government and to achieve things we simply must

do now. women even known if we had not gone to space and nasa came across the commercial crew at a time the technology was there to put the right technology to help our planet. >> two quick questions why did you leave nasa? >> i had been nasa almost five years after the transition team. they told me they would be replacing the head of nasa if reelected but it was clear they were not going to. charlie and i got along but it wasn't fair of me to be there continually, being seen opposing his policies.

i wasn't looking back i got a cold call from a headhunter working for a game changer to run a major aerospace association. i knew i wouldn't leave nasa to go to industry but they made me an offer. i loved it. i worked there for five years and put a lot of what i learned about running a major organization and progress a into that. >>ub last question you want to transform nasa that was your quest. did you succeed? >> i tried many times to make it clear throughout the book i am not the only person who transformed nasa but i would say yes. nasa is transformed it is

being transformed people have told me who are still they are that it is a different place. now even people the administrator the contract said it was sacrilegious anything like that ten years ago. so much escaping gravity. >> wonderful to talk to you.