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smart speaker, play c-span radio, c-span powered by cable. >> good evening, everybody, my name is e. r. anderson. we're delighted to be here with all of you tonight wherever you're watching from. we know we've got atlanta folks on the house and new orleans folks in the house and all home week because linda villarosa has been a friend for decades and to this point we've celebrated linda's work across many genres and we're really, really, really honored to get to celebrate this book. tonight's event is co-sponsored by the feminine women's health center and i'll introduce nk anded development and communications at the feminist's women's health center to tell you about the work. and first i want to introduce van newkirk. we're having a little bit of

technical issues with the internet and we'll keep working with that. and a senior editor at the atlantic and host and co-creator of the peabody winning lines, hurricane katrina and its aftermath. for years newkirk has covered voting rights, democracy and environmental justice with a focus on how race and class shaped the country's and the world's fundamental structures. dan is a 2022 carnegie fell owe and 2022 james beard awards finalist and fellow at new america and recipient of magazine editors award. so we're going to welcome dan back up here in just a moment. first i'm going to welcome linda villarosa. a journalism professor and contributing writer at new york magazine she covers the intersection of race and

health. she is served also as executive editor at essence and science editor at new york times. her article on maternity and infant mortality a finalist for the magazine award and contributor to the 1619 project. welcome to you and we're really, really, really glad to have you here. i want to bring dan back in and while i'm doing that turning it over to mk anderson, the director of communication at feminist women's health center. a reproductive health, rights and justice organization, provide direct services including abortion care, and they provide education, advocacy and leadership development opportunities. they're also movements with people across all acts of oppression so we have the rights, resources and respect to make empowered decisions about our own bodies and our own health. learn more about their work at

feminist center and i'll put that in the chat. welcome mk anderson and a little about what's going on there right now and thank you for co-hosting this event tonight. thank you, yeah, we're happy to be here, of course, charis a resource in the area and highlights and tries to confront in providing care to people. but as a reproductive health care provider, we also do education, outreach and advocacy. so, we have a lot of opportunities for folks to get involved, especially now, with what's happening, the big scotus abortion case kind of looming. for clinical services we provide abortion care up to legal limit up to 20 weeks in georgia right now. and provide wellness services so your annual exams, your birth control options and we

also have a health initiative as well that provides hormone replacement therapy and wellness care. so, on the educational, we do a lot of outreach with bipoc communities and lifting voices, latinos, trains health promoters in the latino community to reach out and talk about topics that are often taboo in the latina community, especially with sex ed. and we have the project of course led by organizers here and excuse me, educates the community on wellness issues in that community. and advocacy program so we have a full-time lobbyists fighting down at the state capitol to prevent even more bans from coming through, trying to restrict abortion rights and

often restricting our freedoms generally, folks who are trying to push abortion bans trying to criminalize trans in schools and-- we're every day at the legislative session making sure our voices are heard. if you're interested in-- going to drop the links, and we will have a newsletter coming out next week with our events in it so if you're really interested in this issue and you want to get involved with the center, sign up for a newsletter and you can find out there. >> thank you, mk. it's wonderful to have you and so grateful for the work. >> of course. >> while we're working on getting dan back up, linda, why don't you begin by telling us how this book was born? >> first of all, thank you, i'm so-- i wish we were in person, but

i'm so honored to be there with everyone, atlanta is really important to me. charis books is important to me, it's one of the first book stores i ever had an event at when i had body and soul, my first book. i wrote in atlanta much of it working with the was then the black women's health project where sister song, sister love and other organizations are located. well, i started the book and i got the book deal with double day in 2018, but i was so resistant to writing a book at all and my editor-- i write all of my magazine pieces really, really long and my editor would always cut things and then i would push back a little bit and she'd say save it for the book. i said there's no book, i'm not writing a book. she said you should write a

book, you have so much stuff you were writing, we were cutting so much you should write a book. so my piece on maternal and infant mortality came out in the new york times magazine in 2018 and i-- my friend andrea bernstein came over and said you need to write a book. i'm not writing a book, i don't have an agent. she said i'm going to introduce you to my agent. i said i don't want to. she said i already did. i had the meeting with the agent, i don't want to write a book. she said you're here at a literary agency, you're going to write a book and that was, i was very reluctant, but then i realized it was important to me to kind of synthesize the ideas that i had been writing about, especially at the new york times magazine, but also before that at essence and to really give people -- people were hungry for the information and to have it all in one place. so, that's kind of how it got started. hi. >> glad you got this.

>> good to see you. >> yeah. >> yeah, well, you know, my internet is conspiring against me, but i'm happy to be here and happy to celebrate your book. >> thank you. i'm so happy to be in conversation with you. >> so my first question just got taken, but i have another question for you. and that is you have this career you've been writing about these issues in health care, in the environment and just how the conditions of black folks, of people who are on the margins, and, but this book is not just about the information that you compiled, it's about how your perspective changed. can you tell us about how it changed and why? >> i think i am from this family of, you know strivers

and believing in uplift. and my grandparents came to during the great migration and didn't want to be, and took the girls to the suburbs where we can have a better life and we can do this and work hard and we can get our education and we were that kind of family. and that was how i was raised. like each one teach one, lift as you climb and i get boot strappers, i guess boot strappers, and when i got to essence, i fit in, that was the thinking there. it was a little more political than that, but we have this audience of black women, a keep reach of black women in the united states and now we have a chance to really change the -- just make the race better, uplift the race.

and for me, it was about health. i knew about racial health disparity. it's not a secret. racial health disparity has been since we've been on the shores in america. if people know better they'll do better, but it took me a minute to realize people, even when people do better, and do everything right, and do their best, then there still is these health disparities and poor health outcomes exist and it happened in my family of strivers and it happened in some ways to me with my own birth, and i see it in my friends and i really see it now that i've sort of opened the lid on it and started talking about it, but i hear every kind of story. and this lived experience story telling is really important to couple with the kind of evidence-based research reporting that i also do and love. >> going back to my own days in

public health, and struggled with the term health disparities. i feel like it kind of sanitizes or packages what is the stunning difference in ways of life and material conditions for people. you're talking about on both ends. at birth and in early death a significant difference in how people live and die. can you tell us more about what is actually-- what are the things that are going into this thing we call health disparities and these gaps that kind of get sanitized in the language? >> i'm really glad you asked that because i just kind of push over that and go right through it. and thank you for allowing me to slow down a little bit and to think about that and i think the big idea of the book is that america has arguably the best health care in the world and definitely the most

expensive and we spend so much money on health care, more than every other country and we also have, you know, ours is good. we have good clinical health care, we have good innovations, we have good technology. yet, we have poor health outcomes in relation to other wealthy countries in the world. and it starts at infant mortality and maternal mortally and it ends with life expect tenancy, but it's treated as a mystery. what's going on in the united states where, you know, when you look at the inequality of our health care system, and then you drill down into race, it starts at birth for race. racial health disparity and ends with death looking at life expectancy. so, you know, black babies are you know, where one i think it's about nearly twice as-- have twice, almost two times the level of infant mortality

where black women are three to four times more likely to pass away during pregnancy and childbirth, and then, you know, we also have a lot of more near misses, and then at the end of life, life expectancy is different for black people and it used to be when i first started writing this book the life expectancy gap was 3.5 years, and after covid by the time i was finishing the book it stretched to six years and then, i think the stat around life expectancy that really hit me was looking at where my mother's from. so my mother is from the inglewood section of chicago. people live to age 60. and then nine miles north in streeterville, people live to age 90 and it's the largest-- inglewood is a black community where it used to be a promised land for people coming from up south. so why would there be, you know, why would people only be living to age 60 and a 30-year

gap with only a nine mile distance? and you know, a black community versus a white community? and you're sort of like, you know, wow. i just have to say wow. >> so you talk about three theories in the book, or four theories, but three that you don't quite agree with, that purport to explain these differences. one is, you know, black people are somehow by our communities.

i think that's my-- is that my fourth option? okay, is something is wrong with our communities and that's what i was thinking about chicago and i remember, i'm not going to say the name of the former president, but that person was looking at chicago and you know, calling it out and saying it's so terrible, it's such crime ridden. how can people live like this. when my mother and i went back there we were shocked by the condition of her community. we lived back in early 2020 just before the pandemic, but looking into it, it's like, oh, this is a community that was redlined. so people, black people in the black community were not allowed to buy homes. your home is your biggest wealth asset how people pass along generational wealth is through a home. if you weren't allowed own a home. i was interviewing all over red lining and i was doing an

interview with the next president of sellman spellman in atlanta and she had her assistant call me back, don't forget to tell linda about contract buying. i hadn't heard about that and i read a link and the rule that, black folks couldn't buy a home except on a contract. so that meant we had no equity. and then, if you didn't-- if you missed a payment on your home because you didn't have a mortgage or you didn't have that kind of equity that other people had, then you could lose your home. and then i asked my mother, i said, how did grandfather, you know, own that building he bought in the 40's? she said i don't know, he bought it on some kind of contract. he was always terrified that he would lose it. and i thought, oh, my god. then my mother went to school with lorraine hamsbury. lorraine's father sued the, you know, he was a lawyer, and he sued around this whole contract buying thing.

and i thought, my god, you know, here are these people who come to this place trying to have a better life and then this happens and these are clearly are you know, a talented, wonderful, sparkling group of people and my mom and lorraine hamsbury and why, this is what happened to the community, it's not there. >> we talked about this before, about the nexxis of issues such as environment, of health, and from my perspective, you know everything, but i want to know if there's anything that you encountered while reporting or researching for this book that surprised you? >> i think it wasn't really a surprise, but it had -- i had to force myself to have a little bit more of-- you know, i'm always very -- my sort of back story is -- and my, what i'm doing on the down low in my reporting is to say,

this is not just poverty, okay? that i'm very quick to say that, this is not just poverty. middle class black people also have a hard time in, you know, america and it affects our health. i think that what i needed to get a better understanding was is the so-called social determinants of health to say and get sort of think more about health and wealth and the intersection. and when i was writing the story about my mother's neighborhood in chicago, i interviewed a friend of mine, dr. eric whitaker, he was in grad school with me, a physician, president obama's really good friend and i was interviewing him and i remember he started this clinic in my mom's neighborhood mostly for black men. it was a black man's clinic and then, i remember he stopped doing it. and i said what happened? and he said-- and it's because it seemed like such a success story, they were getting men into the clinic and he said, it-- something is going on in this

community that having a clinic doesn't help. it's not enough. and he started talking about, you know, talking to people in chicago about investing in wealth building in chicago, rather than being so focused on just getting health care to people, because that wasn't enough. and because, you know, if the whole community around people is crumbling, having one little health care center isn't going to really do enough. and i remember thinking, oh, that's a shift for me. it's a shift for me to think about this and to think more intentionally about the combination, you know, the intersection of health and wealth. >> now, i want to make sure to remind everybody to pop any questions you have in the chat so we can ask some of them a little bit later. the next question, you talked about, and i think you write quite beautifully, about what this pandemic exposes or even,

you know, i think reiterates from your writing. were you at all surprised again about how disparate the impact, the racial impact of covid-19 was? >> people like us were not surprised by that. so we've been looking-- >> i should say is, not the impact not was, is, we're still in a pandemic. >> yes, yes. i think when it was first happening and people who had studied the kind of the health inequality and racial health disparities and also hiv/aids, that was how i started getting into public health. i was on early 2020 right around the shutdown, you know, right when the pandemic was happening i was on zoom calls and facebook live and you know, people were like what's zoom and we were doing the calls and it was black folks who had been

involved with hiv/aids and everyone was saying, this is going to strike black people hard. and that there was this conversation and there was-- there weren't statistics yet. there were local statistics, some in louisiana, there were some in, you know, in different states, some in new york, but there was nothing national and so locally you could see racial health disparities with covid outcomes, but there wasn't any-- no national data, but so on this little, you know, these panicky kind of angry discussions of mostly black people and other people of color who were involved in hiv/aids were saying this is going to blow up. and then i remember the second part of the conversation was, should we push the idea or is it going to back fire and they're going to blame us for this, blame us when it happens more to us? and so there was all of this conversation and then the one that hit me was, i don't know if they knew i was there or going in and out and somebody

said the mainstream media is never going to cover this, they don't care about this and i started thinking, oh, dear, i'm kind of the mainstream media and worked at the new york magazine. and i told my editor at the magazine, this conversation is going on, i think you should get someone to write the racial health disparity when covid happens, it's going to hit black people and people are color worse. and i'm writing a book so i cannot do it. i have no time and she was like, well. you should maybe think about doing it. i'm like, no, i really-- no, i cannot get pulled into one of those long stories. she said why don't you do a pitch and explain your, you know, what you're thinking. so i did a little pitch with other names attached. okay? and then, probably your name was attached. and then i'm like, she's like, oh, can you just tell me where

you think it would-- if you were going to do it where would it be based? so i called around to my friends and i called people in atlanta, i called people in birmingham, in new york, in new orleans, and it turned out that new orleans really was the place to write about this. so by the end, i ended up being the one to write about this, and partially because i had so many contacts, i already had the people in place to talk to, and i already had the basic theories, one because i'm writing a book, was writing a book about racial health disparity, but also because i had that experience with hiv/aids. >> yeah. you called this a moment of epiphany in the book. and new orleans, i remember, it's hard to fathom just how much history is lost when this happens, too, when you lose elders early. ronald lewis, who was the curator of the house in new

orleans, one of the first people who passed away from it in the city and that's black history, right? it's not just-- we're not just talking about individual lives, we're talking about pillars of communities. >> and that's when i-- you know, how i covered it through the lens of this social club and that's such a pillar of the community and to watch you know, the people-- it was on, i was looking on their facebook page and it would be like another brother got his wings and there would be that little emoji and the angel and sometimes the praying hands, pray for the brother and that's what moved me to really say, wait, these are the folks i really do want to look at what's happening to them. because it's so sad. these are guys who were, you know, they were trying to do something good for the community and have mardi gras and the parade and the events and then they got covid. so, i really wanted to cover.

and also, you know, what we saw in covid eventually was that it struck black people younger. so we got worse outcomes younger and the man, mr. charles who i wrote about was only 50 when he passed away and i was so surprised, you know, because he was so young, but then not surprised. >> i have a couple more questions for you and i just want to make sure that we'll get to the audience q & a and you get your questions in the chat. and a lot of the concepts are interesting and this one jumped out at me, this idea, how you explain these persistent disparities, even among people who have access to health resources, the concept of weather. can you tell me more about weathering? >> weathering was a concept

that was thought up by dr. arlene at university of michigan and thinking about this since she was basically an undergrad and she's now, you know, i don't want to tell her age, but probably like 70. and she's been thinking about this and researching it and looking at it and arguing about it. so, it's the idea that -- and it's what she looked very closely at black women, mostly around infant mortality. and it's the idea that something about the lived experience of being black in america, especially a black woman, causes the kind of premature aging and her thinking is that every time something happens to you in the form of discrimination, bias, racism, your body kicks into a kind of-- the kind of fight or flight syndrome so your heart starts racing and blood pressure and

cortisol level rises and this makes sense, fight or flight, it's about survival. but if it happens over and over and over again because you're trying so hard just to survive, it creates what she calls weathering. and that is is premature aging that played out in covid because you saw people getting-- black people getting covid at yucker ages younger ages than white folks. weathering is a dual concept. the living experience being black in america affects our body the way a storm-- the weather hurts a house. so a storm is-- a house is weathered by a storm. the shingles get knocked off, the, you know, paint chips, the windows break, but then we also weather the storm and that means we have-- we take care of each other, we take care of ourselves through kinship, through community, through love. and i really like that concept

and i think it's -- i think it's brilliant that she gave it that poetic name, but it's really an evidence-based data driven concept that she was attacked for early in her career because what she was saying, it's not teenagers, teenagers who get pregnant who are driving up rates of infant mortality pre-term birth and low birth wait, it's actually slightly old women, black women, who had to endure the kind of discrimination in america. people saying in the '90s that she was sort of supporting teen pregnancy and that she was not, you know, being a good advocate and she was attacked. she had to-- people called her house, you know, threatened her job. and now, because we've proven, you know, she's proven, worked hard to prove this theory and also, you know, it's clear that it's coming during covid and

also maternal mortality rates, that this makes sense. she's doing-- i saw her recently, now, a year ago or something and she's doing well. she's writing a book about this concept, i'm really proud of her for sticking with it. >> if you all haven't read, obviously, you should read the book, but an amazing excerpt and reporting from the boo being on the-- that you have in the new york times magazine, it's such a touching story, i just want to know what it was like to go and talk to them about their story and somebody who has seen so-- who has seen a lot of this, how does it affect you -- into your brain and into your being in

writing. >> the ralph sisters just melt my heart. i-- so they, they were-- the ralph family came to montgomery, alabama from, ironically, macon county where tuskegee happened. the family came there in like the late '60s, early '70s, late '60s. thefore was disabled, neither of the parents could read, six childrens, read or write. they were living in montgomery like a -- and a social worker, miss bligh was assigned to their case and we can't have folks living like this and remember, the great society programs just happened and there were services for people, housing, money, health care, and schools. so the children hadn't been in school so the six kids and the parents moved to public housing, they got on-- they got the children in school, one of them was mary

alice was disabled so she went to a school for the disabled. and, but they also got on the radar of the public health service, and at the time because all of these black folks, it was the tail end of the great migration, those were the ones that didn't quite make it to chicago or didn't make it to the north. they flooded into cities in the south. and so at the same time, what happened the government was saying, this is getting too expensive for us, we need to control the population. so it started for the ralph girls, they're only 12-- they were 12, 14, and 17. it started with dep provera, which was not-- it was still in clinical trials and they were given that and then the public health service workers went to the mother, oh, we want-- what she understood was give your girls immunization. she signed an an x on the paper work, what it was was to get

them sterilized because the public health workers were worried, they said it to miss bligh, that boys were hanging around, but the girls, the yuj youngest ones were 12 and 14, so a health worker came and picked up the two younger girls and sterilized them. they went back for older one and she locked herself in the bedroom and she went and told miss bligh what happened. and this is 1973. oh, my god, the girls are here, crying, screaming, heard help us. so she had the wherewithal to get to the southern poverty law center in montgomery, which was new. julian bond was the president of it, but it was pretty new. they took the case, they got it -- they took the ralphs to washington to testify that the three girls, and parents, and they were testifying in front of the senate. they won the lawsuit. they got-- but it also uncovered 100,000,

to 150,000 other women, poor and black women, had also been sterilized. but what happened to the ralphs, they kind of fell off the radar and you see the stories about them and you see, you know, in museums, online, old pictures from 1973 is up. a picture from ebony i cut out and put in my wallet because i became obsessed with finding them. i was in montgomery trying everything i could to find them. i had a researcher on the ground who was a lawyer and so, i'm like we have to find them. i know we're going to find them. we're asking, no one knows how to find them. so the researcher woman, her side hustle was teaching parenting classes she said would you come to our parenting class. i have nothing to say to-- please, just please. my kids are grown. my mom and i are doing this thing we need some fresh blood. ... the tag of

one of the people is ralph debbie ralph. after all this time, i'm looking for them obsessed little piece of paper in my wallet. so i say, are you any relation to mary alice? are you any relation to mary alice,xt kv? there would be in their 60s. she goes they are my aunts. do you want their number? >> wow. >> i was overwhelmed i didn't see in that time but i had her call and tell them about me so the next time when i went there i met them. i'm sure they thought i was so deranged because i so happy and i was so enthusiastic, and they are, i'm going to see the next week. i'm going to montgomery. i think of them as my friends. we talk on the phone. they tell me about the weather there. they where they were bt i brought them. i just feel like there such an

injustice that happen to them but they are so kind and humble and forgiving. i just would love to see some kind of justiceas for them. at least an apology if not the kind of reparation, some kind of reparation. >> now, i do want to make sure we all have time for the audience questions, and we have one and i think it's a good way to follow up from, please give me more, folks. we have one here and and i o make sure i think it's a good way to sort of follow up on what you just said. have there been any initiative to address and eliminate these disparities? especially in the realm you said looking for some sort of reparation or some sort of acknowledgmentin for i think vey heinous programs like tuskegee,

this mass sterilization program but also i think the more mundane health disparity? >> one thing is i'll just isolate the sterilization. three states offer a form of reparations. north carolina where vann went to college. >> that's where i'm from. >> you're right. north carolina did the right thing and gave a form of reparation payments to people who were forcibly sterilized, sterilized without their consent. the program ended. virginia gave money to people who came forward and were sterilized in state sanctioned programs. and california is still, that is still going on. they are paying people but those are the only three states.na there's been nothing national or nothing else. i wanted to mention just sort of

liftse up those senses of kind f sensitivity training or antiracism, anti-bias training that's happening in california. her so california did the right thing beginning i think it was 2006 which realized levels of maternal mortality were just as i in california as they were in the country, and that like women were three to four times more likely to be struck by this problem is. and really pulled out all the stops and said we're going to do everything we can to fix this problem. it's not right that people are dying because of pregnancy and during the birthing process. so put protocolsin in place so that if you had a hemorrhage or an emergency c-section everybody that was at the hospital knew what to do and all the tools were in place. studied it really well and during that time the number of

birthing people who died dropped 55%, but the racial health disparity, black women were still three to four times more likely to pass away. so what they did was realize all, we can't talk to ourselves out of this. so they mandated antiracism antivirus training for anyone who worked with birthing people during pregnancy or during childbirth or the time after. and the state has now also done that, made that kind of training mandatory in continuing education for anyone who's practicing. so i think that's a good step. i don't think that's the only step. it's not perfect. i think what's happening for medical, with medical students and nursing students is really good. many of them were politicized. they were in high school, and college during, you know, and

they hit up against black lives matter. they saw what was happening in this country. now they're having their medical training, they're studying to be doctors, nurses, midwives, public policy health advocates or whatever they'rere doing but they are more political than the last generation and their pushing back against the kind of stale training that is sort of using kind of race as a marker, which is a really effective. they are also say i do want to be a healthcare provider the way some of the others in the past generations have. and i'm really excited by that work among students butor also think we need to support and rdlift them up because it's hard going to medical school and also trying to train yourself in kind of racial health disparities, and healthy quality while you're in medical school which is really hard and in many cases you're trying to train other students.ne i think they need more support from their colleges and

universities. >> one more question we have in the boxt. to follow up on that. how has the medical establishment i think be on the young folks to kind of get it, how is medical establishment responded to findings like yours, to the research that made up thee bed of knowledge here o this changingg paradigm? >> well, it's a mixed bag. i have been really excited by what happen in the past year or two. there are many other colleges and universities that now have health equity center. and many of my friends who were doing other things are now running them so ith really like that. the ama made an apology to black doctors how they were treated in the past. the ama has health equity officer who is a wonderful really smartan woman. the cdc and other agencies and places like that have now in the past, the words racism as a public health threat weren't a

thing. nobody was saying that. but now it's kind of common to say that. however, people are pushing back against that. certainly i think it was the chief medical officer in the state of virginia like a couple of days ago said that's not a think him stop saying that. so therere is pushed back. i certainly get pushback from physicians and i think that a mistake us talking about these issues with as calling them racist. and after i was on fresh air i got a note from a gentleman whose son is, was a medical student in virginia. the son took part in that study that in 2016 with students, interns and residents that found that something like 40% of them believed one myth about the black body, including that black people have higher pain tolerance or have thicker skin. and so we said that was really

unfair, it really hurt my sense feelings, it was really wrong to say that. he really felt used bynd that study, now he's a doctor so you should just stop using that study and y you are just trying, you are just a piece of crap. okay.th so anyway i read that three days ago. i thought about it andnd i thout oh, you know, should i go back and look at it? then i'm thinking no, you know what? that guy he is a doctor now. he's forever changed because he got called out in this way there and so no, and i'm sorry his feelings were hurt, too bad. but i thought about that because i thought thatpo is important ad it's important to sort of like i guess listen to people say you hurt my feelings but then move on to say well, your feelings, this can make a huge difference if we acknowledge this stuff. your individual h feelings, we have to push beyond that. >> we have one question asking,

do you think telehealth could widen or narrow the disparities and gaps? and want to expand that. i want to know if you have come across any other innovations or new implementations of healthcare practice that seem to be going thiss way? >> well, , telehealth has been sorely so important during there pandemic and i think telehealth is really important for rural areas. we've seen so many medical clinics and hospitals closing and rural areas, particularly in the south. so i think there's no choice but to rely on that kind of technology. and so i welcome that, at a don't think that's the only answer. i think many of the things we're doing our kind of limp along plans that were just trying to piece this together into a get a new kind of healthcare system.

i think the other thing that i mentioned in my book and a really, really believe in, and you know i solve your conversation before restart and i couldld see that there were birth workers and midwives here. at a really thank you for your work. and what happens i think in america is we rely so much on machines and on technology, which i'm so glad we have in our country, but often we need to make a connection to people, especially black people have been harmed by our healthcare system. so i think it's important that we can look at lower tech, people centered solutions. and we don't have to always look toward technology. and i was having this conversation with someone during this book extravaganza recently who said i said, stalker community health workers and i said to many health workers, patient navigators. and somebody said oh, you're

just trying to spend more money, that's really expensive. said no, it's not. it's terrible if they are not paid that will. this is really good way and it is sorely cheaper even if you paid the folks better and pay them what they deserve, it's still less expensive than people getting ill and having to be treated in hospitals and in hospital settings. if you keep people out of the systemd by keeping the more healthy and having a kinder, more loving connection to the system, it just works better. >> now i have one more for you and then i will let you go. i'll stop bothering you and you can -- >> you can bother me any time. >> good, good, good. i want you to sign my book at some point. but if you think it would do for us to really delve into, you know, we did have a lot of birth workers who were on, who were involved, and we know that

society is built to try, you know, around making the act of giving birth safety, , around protecting people, around protecting children. and what does it say about america, about thisco country, about ourt structures if this event which is so pivotal is so dangerous for black america? >> i think there's this, you know, i have a button on a t-shirt that says listen to black women and i was a listen to black people and and i wa listen to people. i sayhi listen to birthing peop. because it's interesting sometimes when i have sort of the most mainstream kind of people pushing back against some of these ideas, i realize they are not really listening. edward aye people are telling me stories of what happened to them.s i get all, our people faxing

hesitant to black people afraid to go into the healthcare system because of tuskegee? i was like no, they are afraid for what happened to them in the system yesterday. i was thinking about this because from a book i got to make good, i mean good reviews. one was in the "new york times" book review how it will be on the cover on sunday. >> congratulations. >> thank you.otth and the others in the "washington post." and both of these reviews shared a near tragic birth story. one was a tragic birth story. one was a miscarriage and the family was -- the parents were treated so badly, they called, you know, the lost pregnancy a demise, which is, you know, okay, that's not kind. and then they sent the people home to basically do have the women bleed out and they said no, you'll be fine. they didn't care for. and in the middle of a book review this person is sharing is

really terrible, sad story. then in the "new york times" book review with w a woman who talked about her, she had read my 2018th maternal and infant mortality story. she said i was afraid. i did everything right. and then her story was tragic. she waso a listen to. she had way too much medical intervention and i just thought wow, no one come in the middle of a book review. i mean, this of the good things about the book but the centerpiece of these two reviews were these two people really orterrible horrific stories andi was just really struck by that. and other thing i was struck by an necktieie and review the womn was reading my book at the same time roe v. wade decision was leaked. and what you said was all over social media people are safe oh, my god, it's another handmaids tale. as you said for white women because for black women we've been living through a s tale. so we've been living through a

situation where a j marion sims does surgeries on enslave black women without anesthesia. cut to the sisters in 1973 horsetail lies. cut through today and these people sharing their stories. so i think that, hello -- so glad i i lost my train of thoug. but i want to colleges want to lift up because we're in atlanta. i just want to say i am so grateful to be informed by the black lead reproductive justice movement. because i was allowed to understand in a really simple way and to also share it what it means, what reproductive justice means an america. it's only three things. it's really easy. it's the right to have a child. it's the right not to have a child. and then it's the right if you choose at that child that you have the right to raise that

child in a safe and healthy environment. and a kind s of like and so informed by those simple threese things, and it helps to understand because you are looking at these arguments and that everyone believes in each thing during the arguments. it makes no sense when you're listening to some ofbu the counr arguments but i just stick right in those three things and it helps me understand and helps me think about and helps me kind of like not get upset. i just stick in my good space. >> well, yeah. you think about what would change in our society if you only made those three things the center of policy, right? >> and if you expanded them and just said it's not just for parents and birthing people andl you know, it's about for everyone. if we just have the right to control our bodies and not have terrible things happen to us, and to be able to be healthy and

safe no matter who we are or where we live. it's pretty simple. >> now, i want to make sure to have everybody here get a chance to and see all the links that you can buy this book "under the skin" i do want to invite er back. er can tell you exactly how to do that. >> thank you soo much, vann. i really appreciate this beautiful conversation. it is always a pleasure to get to hear you think and to get to be with your work. thank you for being such a friend to charis circle and a land all these years. i want folks to know you can click this button at the bottom center of your screen. that'scl a one click right overo where you can buy "under the skin" directly from a despicable does help us when you buy your event books directly from us. buy it for your book club, buy it because it's a great, if you

have birth worker isat a great thing to do as a book club with your coworkers. in communities, sororities, fraternities come all the thinks this is a great book to discussed among friends. also consider donating it to your local library or if you're able to purchase a copy requested from your public library. that really helps get the word out about it. so those are all things you can do to help lend and help the world so more people see this book. and if you want to help charis circle are nonprofit you can always donate whatever you w are able to support the work of charis circle. that's how we do all of our programs. folks they have already donated when you came in a room so thank you for that. it really does make a huge difference. vann, thank you so much for being here and hosting this beautiful conversation. linda, help you stay safe and well on your book to her and that it is beautiful and

enlightening and connecting with allhi the things that you bringo your work into the world. >> thank you. and hope to see both of you soon so we can hug. yes. thank you.d d i really, really enjoyed his car station. can tell becaus' i'm talking with my hands, i love this. thank you. i appreciate both of you and all you out there. take you to come on and listening. >> thank you, and everybody please buy a book, by more than one. >> thanks. take care. be safe. good night. >> american history tv saturdays on c-span2 exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 12:30 p.m. eastern on the presidency repeating the light of first lady martha washington from her surviving personal letters with the author of the washingtons, and catherine care research editor at the papers of george washington project at the

university university of virginia. at 8 p.m. eastern on lectures in history hillsdale college professor richard campbell talks about american churches and religion during world war i. he shares how american pastors ministers and rabbi spoke about the great war before and after the u.s. entered the conflict. exploring the american story. watch american history tv saturdays on c-span2 and find a full schedule on yr program guide watch online anytime at c-span.org/history. >> booktv every sunday on c-span2 features leading authors discussing the latest nonfiction books. at 8 p.m. eastern former texas senator phil gramm and mathematical economist john earley takes a critical look at economic disparity in the united states with their book the myths of american inequality. at 10 p.m. on "after words" mar berg in a bloomberg news shares

his book like, subscribe which looked at the gratian and growth of youtube and how it is change our society. turkeys interviewed by "politico" technology policy reporter wrote back occur. watch booktv every sunday on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at booktv.or >> middle and high school students it's your time to shine. you are invited to pieces but in this year's cspan's studentcam documentary competition. in light of the upcoming midterm election picture yourself as a newly elected member of congress. congress. we ask this year's competitors what is your top priority and why? make a five to six minute video that shows the importance of your issues from opposing and supporting perspective. don't be afraid to take risks with your documentary. be bold. amongst the $100,000 in cash prizes is a