tv John O Neill and Sarah Wynne The Dancer and the Devil CSPAN October 17, 2022 4:35pm-5:38pm EDT
well, good afternoon, everyone. >> good afternoon i am chuck devour, vice president with texas public policy foundation, we're delighted to have you here with us for a fascinating discussion about thes use of poisons in ---- national policy, this is something that as a now retired u.s. army intelligence officer i was aware of. but until i read this book, i had no idea the scale that the poisons were deployed by the former soviet union and today's a successor state the russian federation, as well as nations like people's republic of china and north korea. it is a great honor to have today's presentation with
the authors of the book, the dancer and the devil. book covers about a hundred years of history in use of both chemical poisons and bioweapons in a way that is sobering when you are done with the booming book. and you realize magnitude. i would like to introduce authors john o'neill, and sara wynn. >> john graduated from u.s. naval academyy in 1967 and serv -- in vietnam. he was in the brown water navy up the rivers and the deltas. probably mostly southern part of vietnam, he
wass decorated for his service there, he went to university of texas law school and finished top graduated and he has a really funny story about hits time with justice rehnquist. it is humorous after practicing as litigator with international law firm, that is you. -- skipped a bullet point. how terrible. back to john o'neill, you had several hundred cases you tried including representation. you represented the people's republic of china at one point. successfully. but then realized perhaps
what they were about. sara wynn also graduated from university of texas with a law degree and under graduate business degree with high honors, after practicing as litigator you took up a second career at artist. >> acrylic. >> you live in houston with your husband and 2 children. >> you also live in houston. >> i do. >> a nice drive out. >> i am being reminded to use m the mic. >> let me ask the two of you, why this book. this is a topic that is gruesome. there is not at least there has not been in the past a lot of documenttary evidence not until the fall of this soviet union and brief period of time soviet archives were open to the
public, what sparked you into writing this. >> i began with sara, we had rewritten other bestsellers, i began by, i remembered all of the people i saw slattered in vietnam and hong kong harbor during the great cultural revolution. and i thought these people should not beou forgotten. and i began just looking at stories. if you talk about marxist slaughter in 20 sent century, you can take 60 million, these are a few. i stumbled on story of anna -- past. >> she died. he kept telling people, i was poisoned. i was poisoned. by the food in paris. she said it over and over.
if remained a mystery for years why she died, academy award winner 1932 are in best picture, called grant hotel about the death of a russian ballerina. 1 of hist a's great mysteries, we stumbled on all kinds of stuff. russian poison ring, they operated in paris and used poison a large number of people, they were it. of they were all executed tie stalin in the end. he was poisoned, killed by anthrax.
huge bioweapon facilities of poisons and continued long av anna pavlova's time, in 1928. the soviet union embarked on suppressing all of thoughts, ideas and so on. had said that communism needs to control the mines of production. the bank, oil companies, and so on. way beyond, that -- stalin went beyond, that said government needs to control the mind of man control the actual languageth that he uses. and needsdsge to eliminate stalin said the word god, the word god has to be eliminated by 1935. he embarked on a tremendous kill off. not only political opponents
but cultural opponents in russia and western europe. in russia. the account for the some people who produced ballets or they mutt put on music he didn't like, high would do it secretly with bioweapons. anna was great cultural symbol of russia to the world. she danced the nutcracker, swan lake in all those there is a russian noble man or a picture of christmas it is happy, that was a cultural challenge to stalin he could not allow to exist. that is where he is the gaming outlined in book to kill her.
>> once we got to anna and organization of what was called lab one. by stalin. that lead to soviet actual soviet bioweapons production as late as 1970s, 80s, 90s now began gain under putin. from this we learned that there was huge biowar labs set up up in soviet union and also in china. that took another year to do research on china, that is how the book camera about. >> one thing that struck me. that i suppose it makes sense after the fact, is the extent to which stalin went to cover it up. you go through creation of lab one. and then remarkably, all of the executioner,
save for a small number were themselves executed that includes scientists and doctors whoin created the poisons, were you stunned when you came across the evidence. >> we came across killing after killing, he wanted to cover hisan tracks. he did so with various poisons he would say, you know i want to be known for killed this person, to put fear into people. then other times we would do it secretly. and check if you had respiratore issues, you would comed down with pneumonia. it was anthrax, no one would question if you are poisoned, if you had heart issues you would be given another bacteria to kill you
that way. >> the treasury island. the pirate takes the treasure and bury its and killed other pirates that buried it, it was stalin. >> he did the very same thing with romanov killers, people who killed romanovs in 1989. slaughter of the family, they were all executed in 1921 and 22. in monastery. loy located near moscow. >> even the high levels. lennon was killed by stalin. >> talk about the timing, you s say, these two monsters, right, lennon was killed by
stalin. what lennon going to do the day after he was killed. >> he was shot. and so he was ill. he -- >> you get ill after a shot. >> kaplan shot him, she was beaten up and shot quickly. but, he got shot and had to recover from that. he made a mistake. his mistake was getting stalin, whom he had a nation nickname in the book as his secretary. lennon realized what was happening, lennon composed the last testament and he gave it to his wife, only other personr with access to him beside stalin, stalin learned of
thent last test testment. his plan was to present it. they call forward stalin to be removed. day before it d was presentedded lennon died, he had other physical problems, but pathology studies at university of maryland, conclude that lennon could not have died of what it was claimed he died of. so lennon's death among a whole host of others, death occurred before he was going to stalin. >> old days you would go to red square, and there is a
tomb of lennon, stalin used toto be there, they took him out halloween night and buried him. there are actors one stalin and the other lennon. and i asked, the putin guy -- i mean the stalin guy, did you kill smiled.he the soviet people understand what happened. >> tell me about the poison d warf . the photograph with him, a internet people about george
orwell 1994 memory holding that happens when people get canceled. you havee stalin next to a small guy in a uniform, the same picture the guy is airbrushed out. thated is nikolai yevhof, i never knew the connection. >> high worked in laboratory one, he did a fine job high was put in charge of the kgb . laboratory one is second laboratory that stalin used for bioweapons. stalin almost died in a like leak that occur is in 1939.
he was evil. his friends could not believe they were around a person so evil. he loved watching and poisoning people himself and he loves beating people tohe death, he loved human misery. he conducted purge trials in russia most of the old were executed. and his birthday party, he was imitating other a death and agony, he in the end was destroyed and executed in 1939. >> i guess today putin has
been working hard to rehabilitate stalin , tell us about latter cold warin periods laboratory one is replicated, soviet union is more sophisticated in its use of bioweapons, they realize possibilities of mass casualties. int 1970s can you tell us about the lab leaks that happened. and whatnene that indicated. that was the soviet union getting into their. >> there were these luke lab leaks that we know of, first was in kyiv, the number two guy in soviet program defected. the first of these was in kyiv, anthrax, a set of
bacterial spores, introduced to a human lung they mimic pneumonia. and they were untrailable develop the development the various types of treatment there was a like of anthrax out of the kyiv facility. and it went into the san sewer system and mutated to a form of anthrax. that turned to used add their primary form of anthrax. i think it was called anthrax 638, in 1977 in western china. flu appeared it was called russian flu and scientist look at it, they looked at
it. it was the same flu that existed in 1955 outbreak, then disappearedhe from the world. they said the flu does not affect you if you were alive in 55. you were immune they say someone preserved this flu in a laboratory, it -- has escaped, china said we have no idea what you are talking about, and russia said not us, much later, scientist all of the world say it is chemically identical to the 1955 flu, flus mutate. someone has to have preserved it in a lab. in 1994, head of chinese
virology program out line offed in book, disclosed that chinese had preserved the 55 flu in the lab that leaked they were conducting vaccine trials to try to develop it as an e-- effective bioweapon in 1979.9. the same thing happened in soviet union. called bioweapons chernobyl. anthrax escaped, they talk about having to kill stray dogs and how silly that was they knew it was anthrax. they killed 1100 or 1200 people. because this soviet union at that time claimeded it was just bad meat that someone had brought and then they tried to butchers, they were three of likes.
>> by blaming it on bad mate, similar -- bad meat, similar story to not long ago. >> you can read the actual accounts in journals. you can read the count of the virologist who tracked talked with the chinese doctors admitting it was a bioweapon. to combat a virus that econom -- existed in t their own labs. >> that late 70s. in london, again outlines, sometime a regime aims to make a public statement by shooting someone in the
open. many times, a person just gets sicky and dies. tell me about markoff and the umbrella. >> well, sometime they would poison on the end of an umbrella. sometime they were shot in open, sometime it was secretive. >> putin, has an operation outlined in the book, called -- sare it. >> unit 29155 is their operation. >> began killing people by 2004 in ukraine. when the presidentnt of ukraine of the poisoned. you can seeee pictures of them. you probably have seen them.
and 2006, they poison a guy in london. with. >> poison, on his death bed he said the world will know that putin is a poisoner. >> >> and other poisons, most recently away that got everyone gland they poisoned a t family in 2018, they allowed them selfs to video camera, a blogger identified them, they were posting on
facebook, the unit was identified. british police working backward identify 14 different people they murdered confident -- england alone. 8 different families have all died in the sophie soviet union and spain. a family all families with the on soviet oil and gas company. why he killed them we don't know. a family husband and wife and a little girl. the husband supposedly chops up the wife and little girl with a hatchet then hangs himself. if you believe, that you will believ' anything. there is a murder.
stage a suicide that looks like a suicide. or a natural death. that people in russia at least know is not. it is is notde a staged suicide. so the murder of the families all murdered in similar fashion, says to everyone that russia, if you oppose putin, you will not only die yourself but your whole familyng will die. your wife and your kids. . let'sht address a critique. some people say, well, you know thec has done these things before, how are we getter. than old soviet union. what would you say to people who would bring up for example the cia's several supposedly failed attempts to poison castro for example? >> ... book and that
sort of thing? well, the first difference is that in 1970, a us law was changed to outlaw any bio weapons, to outlaw any poisons. and in 1972, we a treaty that we would never do it. and there's no evidence that we've ever done it since that even before time our activities were small and minuscule. castro maybe a couple of other people we killed allende in a likely killed allende or were behind his death on the gold program in south vietna >> in south vietnam but we weren't showing hundreds of people. we weren't developing bio-weapons to kill hundreds of thousands of people. it was a tremendous difference and degree from the beginning. when we entered the bio-weaponst treaty in 1972, we stopped absolutely stopped any efforts at any time but how to disclose
this intense book, it was not a stop, it was a starting point. by mid 1970s, we were spending m money on bio-weapons and there's also another difference as well which we discussed a few minutes prior to going live. you talk about the scale but i remember, john, you had also said who had the ability to play the course. there's a difference in intent and you mentioned and so far the targeting but when you look at for example stalin going after a ballerina because the sort of cultural ambassador that she was represented a threat to the rule and regime and that's why you then see people like that and then they're extended families beingwe killed as well. that seems to be just completely a different sort of activity. >> there is a huge difference, you know, if you study the
history of marxism, you see what happens is folks take over on a very idealistic basis and county collapses and life in general collapses and people voting for freedom find themselves in slavery and that's tragic and ultimately collapses into the single war with joseph stalin or putin and china and the idea of a collective rule with great human freedom starts like that but that's not how it ends. marxism is capable and is noted capable because it fails sog often. it's so important and stalin and to xi in china and putin in russia. xi in china is picking up 11 different actresses have disappeared in china and that's where there's a massive
disappearance maderr to interact on the right political line. >> that begs the question why would stalin want to kill a ballerina that seems harmless and traveled 4,000 miles with her dance and represented everything stalin couldn't stand and it was very much that he continued the production of cultural. >> she wouldn't come back and declared in 1927 she's in with the people.
>> there was no understudy and she wass the greatest dapser in the world. >> i believe there's 37 biographies written about her and surprisingly no one accused stalin of poisoning her. when you do reservice connected and find that she gained circumstantial evidence, it's. remarkable and it's concealed completely. >> another 60 years before it was disclosed. >> i'd like to ask one more question before we start asking questions from the audience and whenca we go to questions from audience, because cspan is here, wait to ask your question till the mic gets to you and end a question in aes question mark.a
you had a finished book at one point and then you thousand, you know, there's all these crazy things that have happened in the world that would seem to suggest at least circumstantially that governments might be involved in a way that they didn't want to admit to. can you tell us t a bit about tt process and what it was that you found regarding the current covid-19 pandemic? >> here's what's happened, covid-19 had a leak and it was the same leak and took the book with the publishers and you'll pay a w bunch of money for your book but can't talk about the book or covid-19 in the book. >> then he keeps the whole manuscript and whole sources and
which are fairly secret. >> it's a different website and notice in the course of writing this, there's 650 inlets and i was doing lots of reservice connected and the course of that, my, art website was gettig hits fromts wuhan and shanghai d thought that's disturbing. nothing to do with the book and i don't have any clients in shanghai andnd i didn't think ay of it and a couple weeks later didn't do anything about it. couple weeks later, i began to workon on manuscript in the morning and i was the only one with access to it and john didn't even have access and my manuscript was opened at 4:00 a.m.. >> at this point, we turned to the fb and i recollects they said get a good forensic expert. we got a good forensic expert and after studying and making copies of the hard drive. >> similar manner i opened the manuscript to work on it one morning and i would save them by
date because we'd make changes and add back in what we deleted and whatnot, they were all gone. all deleted. if i hadn't saved it on a flash drive, we would have lost at least a year's worth of work. we contacted -- that's the eye and we had my hard drive and wifi password with the computer forensic expert and he ran 1,000 tests that i didn't know were possible. got apple involved and they ran tests and they were able to discover that the breach happened in the apple i cloud, which should hit home who here does not save their data. >> i understand, what they're doing is coming from apple i cloud down int' sarah's computer. >> oh, great. >> that's exactly -- right. so anyway, we're able to determine the breach happened there close to home wifi and hard drive and most likely happened from china. >> there's no way to prove who got into the apple i cloud but there's only one country in the world with the capability of
actually doing it. so i guess, you know, we have a very good guess that chairman xi didn't like our book. >> i love working with them and i thought i'm going to help you but stay anonymous on this one. once my computer was up and my manuscripts were deleted, i thought, well, they know who i am now and i better put my name on the book. >> there's been a lot of oftroversy about gain function research, where has that been done here in the u.s. or farmed out to china.
the same as horseshoe bat from the himalaya and 3.8% has never been found anywhere else in the world. but that belonged to wuhan in 2015. we know that because they published articles saying we brought to wuhan, we're proud of having this bat. >> the scientist is nicknamed bat woman. >> they brought that bat to wuhan and were experimenting. the next piece of evidence is they were doing so called gang of function research in wuhan and taking viruses and changing them and sarah will talk to this in a second. the very next thing that happens is in 2018, it's now developed and there was a application by thewu wuhan lab with the u.s. government to actually place the hook, the 3.8%, almost exactly
the 3.8% in a bad virus. the year before this all happened. it's in an article that's coming up in the journal by the american academy of science. the thing now happens, it's 2019, december.em a doctor discovers it. he puts it on the internet andnd says there's a new virus here in wuhan and put him in jail for disclosing state secrets. they release him and say he died of thece covid-19 virus and kils 1.5 people his age and all the other guys mostly die and all the samples are destroyed and all the forensic samples are destroyed by the chinese bio-weapons command. they're alle general such and such and so on. shut down the city of wuhan and
doesn't exist anywhere. >> over 80,000 animals have been estested. >> never exists and can't be found anywhere. it's a created virus that has -- that leaked out of the people that created it. and why don't you go through the jeffrey sass' article. >> sass' article that came out in june of this year called for independent investigation of american institutions and universities that could have evidence leading to origin of covid. he was able to share the covid spike protein you hear about, this site is 12 bars of ina long exactly and it's easy to manufacture in a lab and interestingly, it has a string of eight amino acids identicalat to things in the line and
organizations in north carolina who isn't going to be the tool, the genear editing tool and the ecohealth alliance applied and cleavage site difficult to what is found in covid-19 those three organizations worked together in 2014 to create the trans-mis-ability and then invented in 2016 a virus using a spike protein of the virus that's been isolated by wuhan institution together. >> some of this is new information since our book was published that has a tendency even if you slaughter the people involved like stalin did to come out over a period of time. i think another very important
thing for you all to understand is that till the crisper tool wase created for the first time in history in the west to edit viruses and create new viruses before thises time, the solve i can't tells were dealing with -- soviets dealing with plague and anthrax. they were dealing with viruses that exist in nature and how do you weaponnize those. trying to get the most virulent string. the newew viruses and the buyer and it's the first instance of this. we never knew about it. >> we hear a lot about the risk of a new one and that's frightening and most of the world doesn't understand the threat of bio-chemical war and election14 debate in 2014, putin was criticized because his army
was in disarray and he said yes, but you know nothing of our weapons capabilities. it's a frightening subject and we wrote the book to honor those and makec the public aware of what's happening. >> behind the name of the island rebirth island. >> goats on this island and they would vomit with the plague or ebola or various types of diseases. this saul that's booked and occasionally fishermen come down with bubonic plague and in 1930,
1939, and in moscow, he began coughing at the hotel and they brought a doctor in and said, my god, you have the bubonic plague and there's no cure and we haven't seen it in hundreds of years. everybody died and the hotel got shut down and they said it was a plumbing issue. he represents a tremendous threat to mankind and someone watching us online asks where can people interested in the story find more information.
natural science when the book came out and have the sign and down. >> individuals happening and when the information is coming to surface and the sources that you guys are finding is very interesting. have y'all found or seen any correlation between how long it takes between that to happen? is it coming to surface quicker
nowadays and if not, do you have any ideas on how we can be more proactive inac finding out the truth of the events more quickly? >> it took the original -- the murders in russia and in paris, took 60 years 6 before the documents ever came out. no one saw till the 1990s and in 1918 and of course they're burning their bodies and throwing them in a mine and shot all the people involved in shooting them.
you're seeing more -- we're seeing more and more in the news of events of the theory being correct. actually sean hannity early on mentioned that and right to cross theac calls for it and rit to francis colins nih approached dr. fauci and said what can we do and nih to squash it and shiny object that will go away. it's not going away. there's an abundant amount of evidence.. >> a lot of great people and the reporter for his own book and nobody would publish the book and all he was doing was giving undisputed fact that we sort of
have gone over. always in 1931 to 1934, stalin killed between 4 and 8 million people in the ukraine. they call @ great famine and the reporter for the new york times won the pulitzer prize and a guy showed up and reported he was shot in 1935 by the communist in china and takes awhile for the truth to come out and there was a famine in i the ukraine, 4 to 8 million people died in ukraine. that happened and all the pulitzer prizes in the world don't eliminate the truth of what actually occurred. there's always a character in the world and nicolas wade or
jeffrey sasso who ideology is nt the important thing but the head of commitment to truth itself. >> more and more people are defecting a lot of evidence and that comes from one woman actually working in the lab and told us what was happening and she escaped but her family is all missing. but there's brave souls out there reporting the truth. >> what they're doing and the communist party in china than pointed at hughes claim saying it was the americans that created the virus. >> that just came out last week. i saw headlines that said no new evidence that covid-19 was created in a lab and i went, whoa.nt this is something i haven't heard before so i start pouring
over and reading all the articles i can find. what they said was the technology was created in a lab, which we d don't doubt that. crisper tool is created in c university of north carolina. there's no evidence that covid-19 was created in a wuhan lab. or a american lab. >> obama administration outlawed gene enhancement in 2015. that was very frustrating to some u.s.ts scientists and thout you ought to be able to enhance the infection of viruses in laboratories you can get things infected better and anticipate other things. >> create vaccines. >> but it was outlawed here and it was a felony to do it. 2018 the wuhan lab together with two american institutions show up that the department of defense funded and the badgers and the one that created this
and did it and the technology was shared with the chinese and not for the purposes and creation of bio-weapons in china. >> all centered around the site and there's a family of coronavirus and i think it's called the sagaco virus family. >> hi, we're hearing new news about other viruses popping up, specifically monkey pox and if you'd doneuf research on if that
was manufactured or bio-weapon or if it's a suspicion. what are your thought s? >> i haven't done any research on that and have our hands full with coronavirus. people don't't realize coronavirus, you know, it hasn't gone away. it's only gone away in the newspapers. there are 120,000 people every single day coming down with coronavirus right now. they're about 4 to 500 people every single day dying of coronavirus. >> when he's going to disappear. hi wish it were but it hasn't disappeared and they're infecting people every single day.
>> the chronicle and more for the presence of the covid-19 and s it's 635 times higher in julyf 2022 than it was in july of 2020: so it's definitely not going away. >> we have a question from online that bears it's a good follow on for your question and this one i think why was there no accountability and anything that can be realistically done? >> the first thing is we have to tell the truth. that sounds silly but we have to actually get to the basis and it's a wuhan, china. >> a mass cover up. it's the convention and the
pharmaceuticalsre and if china s 12 or 15 major bio-weapons facilities and don't go out of the bio-weapons business and out of pharmaceutical business and all kinds of steps we can take once we just realize our al is s the truth. >> we don't even have access to bio-safety labs for military and that's confusing giving talks and there's an adjacent level 4 and the who was never allowed to investigate that. we don't know what's going on in there. most likely things much more dangerous than covid-19 because we're not allowed any access to it. >> wow. do we have any idea the level of personnel in that lab compared to the so-called civilian lab? >> i don't. >> understand that in 1972,
china under ping major opponent of bio-weapon supposedly at that time, sign add treaty together with rush cha and together with us that -- russia and us that outlawed all these activities and they're a total violation of total international law. the applications under 1972 treaty. a total violation of it. wews were on a line particularly in the putin xi period. >> another frightening thing in the course of research the russian army trains one out of five days in full hazmat suits and only reason they'd do that would be if they themselves were preparing to initiate some type bio-chemical attack. >> i can assure you those chemical nuclear biological suits are very uncomfortable. i can also assure you that the russian version is even more uncomfortable than the american version because the one we use
is flogged with lining that allows for some breathing, and it's disposable. basically wear for a certain period of time and throw it away and burn it: but the russian one has like a rubberized cover over it and meaning that you can't really sit and it's made to last longer butut it's terribly difficult to work in. >> we found pictures of it in publication, russiato today. >> right. that makes sense. >> whose editor is now in jail. >> there's moreot evidence and questions online. >> one over here.
second-degree people took the technology and decided we'll try to do it in china at u.s. expense. that got funded by the u.s.. >> there's three organizations ofac getting together and they created a newne virus. >> working with her in china and clearing the university in china and i was educated on the topic
and for bio-weapons. jot book is "the dancer in the devil, stalin on the road to the great pandemic". the authors will be outside in our lobby to provide copies of the book and watching us on the elive stream as well as this. thank you so much for joining us today for this book talk and publicm policy foundation and down the line.
IN COLLECTIONSCSPAN2 Television Archive Television Archive News Search Service
Uploaded by TV Archive on