tv The Presidency Mary Lincoln Dressmaker Elizabeth Keckly CSPAN May 10, 2025 9:30pm-10:15pm EDT
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lena mann first joined the white house historical in 2017 as american university's public history fellow. lena came on board as a historian. and in march 20, 20 she is interested in many different aspects of white art history. her latest research is on the enslaved individuals who built and worked in the white house as
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a lifelong marylander. she also researches local and regional history. previously, she has worked with the national service and the maryland historical. lena received, her bachelor of arts in history from st college of maryland in 16, where she minored in anthropology, environmental studies and museums studies. she earned her master of arts in public history from american university in 2019 and now. lena mann well, good evening history happy hour crew. i am really delighted to be with you this evening to talk about one of my absolute favorite in white house history, elizabeth, if you are unfamiliar with elizabeth keckley, she is the woman was born into slavery. she later gains her freedom and becomes the dressmaker to first lady mary lincoln. she goes on to publish a in 1868, which is fantastic. it gets called behind the scenes
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as were 30 years a slave and four years in the white house. and i have a copy right here recommend. this is a fantastic you can also find it online for free definitely check it out so it really resource for historians only does it give a lot of the really painful but relevant about her life as an enslaved child, a young woman. but it also gives insider's view into the lincoln white house. during the civil war. and in particular, i think her descriptions of mary lincoln are really essential for historians today they provide a bit more insight into what was going on with mary. so i'm really excited to talk about her life. and without further ado, let's take a look at elizabeth keckley first herself. right off the bat, i would like to address spelling of her name. you will probably see it spelled most with an e. this is how it is published for her memoirs. so her memoir, use the keckley with that e spelling. however, there is another
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fantastic book by an author named fleischer titled lincoln and mrs. keckley looks like this also recommend picking it up. it's a great book. and in this book she did a ton background research and she looked at a lot of elizabeth's letters and actual signings of her name and what she discovered is that when elizabeth signed her own name, did it without an e, it may have been a decision by the publisher to include that e in the actual publication. so that is what, i have decided to use usually eliminate the e when i talk about elizabeth keckley. so a little bit of information about her early life. we don't have a ton of photographs, but she was born in february of 1818 on a plantation owned by a man named armistead burwell in virginia her mother was a house slave named, agnes or aggie hobbs. and agnes was allowed marry. she did marry a man at nearby plantation named george hobbs,
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who was also enslaved and this is the man that elizabeth considered to be her father. however the truth is more complex. in reality, her father was likely armistead burwell himself the enslaver and we will likely never know the full details about elizabeth's conception. but she certainly did have a father relationship with george hobbs. unfortunately, like many enslaved families, the hobbs family definitely experienced the painful family separation when she's around seven years old. george is briefly brought to live with agnes and elizabeth. but then in this really twist, is sold west. and she in her memoir has this very evocative quote where. she says, well, yet my father and mother speaking hopefully joyfully of the future, mr. burwell came to the cabin with a letter in his hand. he was a kind master in some things and as gently as possible, informed my parents that they must part four in 2
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hours. my father must join his master in dinwiddie and then go with him to the west, where he had determined to make his future home. the announcement fell upon this little ccle in that rude log cabin like a thunderbolt. i can remember the scene as if it were but yesterday. how father cried out against the cruel separation his last kiss, his wild of my mother to his bosom. the solemn prayer to heaven the tears and sobs the fearful anguish of, broken hearts the last kiss, the last goodbye. and he, my father was gone, gone forever. the family never reunited after this point and the separation of the hobbs family certainly not a unique experience among enslaved families, very few enslaved families survived fully intact. and these types of sales were moving away, happened often. they never met life again, although george hobbs was able to read and write and did send letters back forth with agnes
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over the years. and then elizabeth actually does include some of those letters in her. all right. so when elizabeth is about 14 years old, she gets sent from virginia down to north, where she is set work for burwell son robert and new wife. robert was a presbyterian minister and elizabeth probably initially their only enslaved because they did not have a ton of money. she does definitely does not recall this experience fondly. she was severely whipped during this time, often with no discernible provocation. and then she's also raped by a local white store and. eventually, one of these incidents results in a pregnancy and the birth of her only son george she named him after the man that considers to be her father, george hobbs, and her birth and her words. the birth are really, really interesting. she describes in the following.
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she says if my poor boy ever suffered any humiliating pangs on account of birth, he could not blame his mother for god knows that she did not wish to give him life. he must blame the edicts of that society which deemed it no crime to undermine the virtue of girls and might then position. so you can see here she feels good conflicted about her role as a mother to george very you know tough position for her and she as she states had no choice in it. and i think that that is it's really to read these words in something that was published in 1868. you don't see something this evocative. elizabeth time in carol of north carolina comes to an end in 1842, she returns to virginia, a young woman by this time armistead burwell himself had died. and so elizabeth and son are set
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to live with basically the daughter of burwell. and then the son law. so their names are anne and hugh garland. and at this point, she actually reunites with her mother. but garland himself had quite a few financial difficulties. he finds himself at the brink bankruptcy in about 1845. and so basically set out for saint louis, missouri, in 46. and that includes both elizabeth, her mother, agnes. so they join the garland's in louis when they get there the family had gone initially ahead of them. they find that their fortunes have not improved and initially the family plans to hire agnes out for work. however, elizabeth strongly objects, she says, because her mother older, she says no. and so she ends up using her own skills as a seamstress. her mother had trained her in sewing from an early age, so she basically starts to open up her
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own seamstress business. then the money from that business goes not to her. but to the garland family. this does her in a really advantageous position, becomes a really talented seamstress. word about her certainly spreads. she has a lot of wealthy white women clients, and she to have really good social skills because she makes acquaintances with these women and it seems that she develops relationships with a lot of people on the in this particular slide i have several examples of dresses that are believed to have been sold by elizabeth keckley. two out of three of these and maybe the third. i'm forgetting where it comes from, are believed to have been mary lincoln's dresses. but she is sewing for a wide variety of people. she also gets married during this time to a man named james keckley. she had originally met him back in, virginia. and honestly, this really just doesn't seem to have been very
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prosperous. she is initially not super sure whether she wants to get married to him, mainly because she doesn't want to bring another child into the world as an enslaved. but she does marry him and then ends up divorcing or separating from him later on after she gains her freedom. i actually think about this quote all the time, but she has this one little quote that she says about which basically says, let charity draw around him a of silence. and that's pretty much all she says about him. she doesn't give a ton of details, but during this time, she also is trying to negotiate with garland for her. basically, they come up with, he will allow her and her son their freedom. she pays him 1200 dollars and is a bit of a setup because it is very it's going to be very difficult for elizabeth to raise that sum of by herself.
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she did find it quite hard. she although she's, you know, supporting the family through her seamstress business. she can't keep up with, you know, all the other household things she's doing for the garlands. so it becomes quite difficult. in the end, though, by 1855, she's able to gain her freedom because essentially all of those clients that she has come forward and offer her loans of money essentially, and she's able to pay that 1200 dollars and gains her freedom on november 13th, 1855. q garland had died that time, but anne and garland wife does sign those emancipation papers once. this is done. she is a free woman. however, stays in saint louis for a few more years, and she actually does pay back all of women that had donated money for this cause. and after that, she finally heads over to the east coast after a brief stint baltimore,
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she finds herself moving to washington. washington had laws that made it more easy for her to establish herself, and she starts to go work as a seamstress. and she very quickly finds some business with, some very, very wealthy clients in the district and one of those included a very prominent southerner, varina davis, the wife of a mississippi senator and future confederate president. jefferson davis. her memoir has a really fascinating conversation. she recounts with varina davis. essentially, davis says, hey, i know there's going to be a war up between the north, the north and the south and essentially offers her the opportunity to come south her and continue to sew dresses for mrs. davis and likely other confederate women. however, elizabeth keckley declines and at least how she describes it in her memoir, she says, i preferred to cast my lot among the people of the north.
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and so that is her reasoning for staying behind in d.c. free to davis is certainly not her only client she has quite a few other other clients that just as high of status in washington. a lot of politicians wives and this is how she becomes a acquainted with first lady mary lincoln. so frieda davis does indeed depart the south. we have president elect abraham lincoln arriving in washington. and in the weeks leading up to lincoln's inauguration, she gets approached by one of her patrons, a woman named margaret mclean mclean wanted elizabeth to make a dress for the following sunday. she herself would be joining the lincolns at the hotel and elizabeth at first actually turns this down. but then mrs. mclean tells quote, i have often heard you say that you would to work for the ladies of the white house. well, i have it in my power to obtain you this privilege. i know mrs. lincoln well and shall make a dress for her, provided you finish mine in time to wear at a dinner on sunday.
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so with this opportunity in mind, elizabeth furiously works to finish dress. mrs. mclean is very with the result and as a result does recommend elizabeth to mrs. and it seems at least from what elizabeth says about it, that mrs. lincoln was already somewhat familiar with keckley work because she had heard through the grapevine of coakley's work back in saint louis from her friends there. and so essentially they meet the inauguration at the willard hotel. then mrs. lincoln instructs elizabeth to go to the white house the following after inauguration at 8 a.m., when elizabeth arrives, she discovers that there are three other dressmakers there waiting for the interview. one by one, the others are dismissed. finally, mrs. lincoln greets elizabeth. they discuss her employment, and then she takes the measurements. mrs. lincoln's new dress. so she makes the dress and then returns for the event, when she arrives, mrs. lincoln is actually enraged she claims that elizabeth is late and, that she
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can't go down to the event because she has nothing to wear. but after some reasoning. mrs. lincoln does agree to wear the dress. president lincoln. according to coakley's recollection, smith is over and says, you look charming in that dress. mrs. keckley has with great success. please with her work, mrs. lincoln does continue to employ elizabeth, over the course of that spring, she sews about 15 or 16 dresses for the first lady. and then when mary returns to washington in that fall, she continues to employ keckley and they end up establishing a really strong business relationship at first overtime, they do become more friendly. often they're described as confidantes. and also, she, mary lincoln, starts to call elizabeth as elizabeth dropping the e noting that they have a closer relationship a lot of the time elizabeth. keckley goes by lizzy among people that she knows really well in her role as the seamstress. she does have a really unique view of the white house. during the civil war, she interacts with the lincolns closely, and in her memoirs, she
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a lot of details about. the wartime white house. she also has a lot to say about willie lincoln and his death. when he passes away in february of 1862. keckley is she wrote she writes in her memoir, i assisted in washing him and him and then laid him on the bed when mr. lincoln came in. i never saw a man so bowed with grief. you came to the bed, lifted the cover from the face. his child gazed at it long and earnestly murmuring, my poor boy, he was too good for this earth. god has called him home. i know that he is much better off in heaven. ultimate lee. this death is extremely impactful to mary lincoln, but willey's death does end up bonding the two women together. they are both actually mourning the of their sons at the same time. elizabeth son george is an adult by this time, but he joins the union forces. he although the early part of
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the war, the there aren't any they're not allowing black troops or black regiments in the same way that they do later. the war, george, is actually white passing so he joins a white regiment and he's killed really early on missouri, just six months prior to wesley's death. so in the aftermath of both of these deaths of their sons, they end up bonding over this. and i think that this is something that brings a lot closer together. mrs. lincoln certainly is not doing well after the death. she you know doesn't attend the funeral. she is unable to do so. she spends a lot of time in grief and elizabeth includes a lot of these details. the memoir, which would become controversial. at one point, she a really memorable moment where apparently lincoln is really concerned about his wife leads her over to the window points in the distance towards an asylum and says to his wife, do you see
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large white building on the hill yonder trying control your grief or it will drive you mad? we may have to send you there. so this is just a little window into mary lincoln's mental state that time and and how just drastically some of the actions they were considering taking. in addition to her dress making business and her growing friendship with the first lady, elizabeth also finds to find a found a society called the contraband relief. this is meant to aid contraband camps the summer of around 1862. these are essentially refugee camps. so they're homes to enslaved refugees or formerly enslaved refugees that have fled here from the south and are flooding into the nation's capital. and at this point, their legal is a little bit unclear. and so they are considered contrabands of war, hence the name contraband camp. but it's not quite determined at
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that time. are they free? are enslaved? are they something else? so elizabeth sees the need in these camps for supplies, help, and so she gets to work and she founds this association and she immediately actually approaches the lincolns about donating to organization. and so there's letters showing that mrs. lincoln writes a letter to her husband and asks for if they can give money and they do hand over a $200 check to elizabeth keckley to aid in this association. so, elizabeth, very busy during the war and keckley remains a key observer life at the white house up until president death in april 1865. so on the morning of april 15th, after the events of the evening before a messenger arrives at keckley house and her by carriage immediately to the white house to console mrs.
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lincoln, elizabeth later learns when the first lady was asked, who would you want to have by your side in your grief? she responded, yes. for elizabeth keckley, i want her just as soon as she can be brought here. mrs. lincoln remains in the white house for several weeks, about five weeks before departing and. this time, she does convince keckley to accompany to chicago for a short time before elizabeth returns to washington with mrs. lincoln's quote, best wishes for. my success in business. now in 1866, mary lincoln is in trouble. she's drowning in debt. and so she ends up reaching out to keckley and asks her employers her to meet her in new york that september to assist in disposing of a portion of my wardrobe. so keckley actually puts her own business on hold to do this she goes up to new york to, try and sell some of this wardrobe, some of her own pieces in order to
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make some money for mrs. lincoln in new york, they attempt to find for the wardrobe, but honestly the trip is disastrous in the end, mrs. lincoln gives permission to a man named william brady, essentially to stage a public exposition to sell the wardrobe. this decision is much discussed in the media of the it's derided and mrs. lincoln is really raked over the coals after the trip mrs. lincoln continues to, frequently correspond with elizabeth. elizabeth still is doing her best to support it publicly defend the first lady. she actually writes letters to prominent friends in the black community, asking them to take up offerings for mrs. lincoln. in churches, there's even a letter that she includes in the memoir to frederick to take part in a lecture to raise money. although it doesn't seem this ultimately comes to fruition. but she also did make some decisions regarding mary lincoln's possessions that strain their relationship she donated some relics without mary's knowledge. she granted this william brady
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the permission to display clothing in this traveling exposition. and mary lincoln was not super pleased. so the relationship did fray a little bit at that point and also elizabeth really keep up with mary lincoln's letters. they were very demanding and so you can tell starts to sort of back off from the relationship a little bit. this really comes to a head by 1868. so at the same time that all of this is happening in the post lincoln house era, elizabeth is working on her memoir and so she publishes this book behind the scenes in 1868 as we've talked a lot about it gives a ton of details about her life, but also includes a lot of details about the lincolns and also includes all the details from this very disastrous dress selling saga. keckley believed writing the story would redeem her own character, as well as mrs. lincoln's. and fortunately for keckley, the book was really not
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well-received for several reasons. number one, by writing down the story of, her enslavement, her intimate conversations with washington's white women and her relationship with the first lady, keckley violates basically any social norms of privacy, race, class and, gender for the period, although other formerly enslaved people like frederick douglass wrote very generally well-received memoirs during the same time period, keckley is is certainly more divisive, and it comes down to her choice to publish correspondence between herself and mary lincoln. this is seen as an infringement on the former lady's privacy and. keckley actually attempts to address this critique upfront in the opening preface, the memoir, and she says, if i have betrayed confidence in anything i've published, it has been to place mrs. lincoln in a better light before the world a breach of trust if can it can be called of this is always excusable. my character as well as the character mrs. lincoln is at
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stake since i have been intimately associated with that lady in the most eventful periods of her life, i have been her confidant and if evil charges are laid at her door, they all must also be laid at mine. since i have been a party to all of her movements, i defend myself. i must defend the lady that i have served the world judged mrs. lincoln by the facts which flowed upon the surface and through her have partially judged me so not well received. and she seems to know that up front it is attacked by the media. some groups that this is an example of why black women should not be educated at all and her position in society is ultimately affected a little bit. so she does have trouble the years following gaining clients in the same way. so that does a bit of an issue. also, it does seem that mary lincoln's son, robert may have had a hand in suppressing the publication of this book. mary lincoln did read the memoir, apparently few weeks
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after its release, and she felt betrayed by the very intimate and conversations described, refuses to mention his again. keckley does continue sewing after the some of the customers do disappear, as i mentioned, but later goes on to train blacks seamstresses passing on her knowledge. a new generation in 1892. she does accept a position at wilberforce university and their department of sewing and domestic science and moves to ohio, a time she does then suffer a possible stroke comes back washington dc and she dies. in 1907, at the age of 89, after living truly, a really explored an eerie and remarkable life. so that's the story of elizabeth keckley. briefly, before we move to q&a, i do want to highlight to that. we have at the association and so i'm going to pause this on
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our website under our education tab, you can find a video this video here, it's a short two minute animated little piece describing elizabeth life, her work for mary lincoln. a lot of the details we discuss today this is meant for kids and so our education team has been designing this for teachers to use in their classrooms. so that's one really wonderful resource we have. and then i also wanted highlight this as well. also have a series of story maps. these are maps that track different individuals associated with white house history. and we do have one called elizabeth keckley neighborhood. and it takes you through everywhere that she would have been and where she went in washington, d.c. so these are both on our website. i highly encourage you to check those out. really fantastic resource us and thank you for having me everyone. i want remind people i know you've got questions on this wonderful presentation.
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please use the q&a function at the bottom of your screen to ask your questions. we have some cued up already. you, lena the elizabeth. how many helpers? asks paul silver spring assistance in making the dresses and did she restrict her creations to dresses? did she make other items as well? so really good question. it's definitely a business that she's mainly operating herself, but you do get the sense that it's time goes on. she does work with other people at various points and then in her later career as i was talking about she really takes it upon herself to start training other seamstresses, hoping to pass down that knowledge. and the question about the it is mostly dresses i'd say primarily she is dressing women. i have seen a couple examples her dressing men as well. she's definitely would have been well versed in sewing more than just dresses. but i think that for the most
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part, those are the pieces that we believe that she sewed and that was probably the majority of what she worked on. great question kathleen in redwood city wants to know where you can see those dresses. so you can see one of them at purple when i showed is of the smithsonian's collections that i believe you can see at the american history museum and then the other dresses, i don't know exactly where some of those are. i would have to do some. i'm not entirely sure. i think maybe the has one of them. i'm sorry. i don't quite know. joanne wants to know. can you really see insane asylum from the white house or was this made up that i don't know. you know, that's the problem with memoirs. they are written and sometimes embellished. it's a very evocative scene. i don't know, not having stood
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in the white house in that time period. it's hard to know whether i would have been able to see asylum from the window. but is a very effective storytelling device. whether or not it is true. helen from san francisco asked a detailed question about the purple dress she was shown in the illustration, and it looked like the sleeves are slightly different colors. would that be correct? and i believe that's true. i think uses like a there's a couple different purples on in that particular dress. yes. she thought it looked like blue, green. this is a little blue. yeah. i think there's a dark blue element used in that dress. brigitte, ask, can you describe? elizabeth's education, her writings are so eloquent. yeah. so she never had any formal educational training necessarily. we do know that both of her both mother and her father were able to read and write. and we can see that from the letters that they passed back and forth. and elizabeth did work in the house. so she was raised as a house
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slave rather than an enslaved person working in the fields. so statuses going on between people on that level. a lot of times you'll find those that work in the house itself sometimes have a bit of a higher education level. so that's not super surprising to me and then goes to live with the minister down in north carolina. so i think she had a lot of opportunities. sorry, my dog's getting excited about elizabeth keckley, so she definitely had a lot of opportunity is for education, but it have not been in a formal setting. related question and this gets to one of the myths, i guess joanne asks that some people believe elizabeth had ghostwriter and didn't actually write her memoir so it could be it could it certainly could be possible it's really hard know i
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always like to give as much credit agency to individuals like keckley and you know but the truth is that i really don't know if it is it is possible. you know, i'll just i've a footnote here. jennifer fleischer in her book on mrs. lincoln and keckley addressed the accusations by a southern historian, david rankin barbee, who said that this was proof the southerners treated their slaves well and educated themselves because she could write so well. in fact, fleischer tracked down the original edits of the book and found that, yes, elizabeth had, in fact, written this book. and so that's my treat. there you go. excellent yeah, i also think there's a lot of that element of trying discredit her. you see a lot of that happening. you referred to it the book in was scandalous when released it not only printed mary lincoln's
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letters to elizabeth, but talked about mary's private criticisms of people in dc. can you address some of those thoughts that she for people in the washington so keckley or not keckley mary lincoln has quite a bit to say about certain individuals and i find it really interesting so there's a certain point where she just starts giving a lot of details about a lot of the really prominent in washington, d.c., for example, of andrew johnson. she says she's, according to keckley, bitterly opposed to the appointment of andrew johnson. she says he is a demagogue. and if you place him in power, mr. lincoln, mark my words you will rue it someday. so according to keckley, the way that keckley writes, she has these very harsh criticisms. she also apparently could not tolerate general grant and she
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said, quote, he is a butcher and is not fit to be head of the army. so she does not mince words when it comes to these very prominent individuals and washington. yeah so there are also examples of some relationships that don't seem quite great. in particular, she does have it out for chase salmon chase and his wife and apparently she was jealous of the popular charity of others. and i think that that really affects some of her relationships with these women in washington. she's human, would say. you could see how mary would consider this a betrayal of trust. absolutely yes. she did. keckley have any so my understanding is that she has siblings through the fact that
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at least this is what fleischer and what others have asserted that they believe that armistead burwell is the father. so through that line she certainly half siblings that would have that she would have interacted with throughout her life and even worked for in certain capacities the guests about the technology these all by hand. did she have sewing machines? great question. some of it would have been my hand. some of it would have been some machinery. but think for the majority of the really intricate details she is doing, that's a lot of hand sewing for sure. gregory asks the i believe you did answer. did the women ever meet? after the book was published? no, not yeah. mary lincoln really didn't want anything to do with elizabeth keckley after a long.
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tina ask, did her son, who died in the war have a family? so i actually i've never done a ton of research on george mainly because i focus on the white house i focus that element but i don't think so from what i know. i believe he was very young still at the time when he entered army just from lincoln, nebraska, that mrs. keckley ever get to mrs. lincoln's grave in springfield. oh, i didn't actually know about that one. i'm not sure that's i don't think that details in the memoir, but i'm not sure if she ever did go. adrienne in denver hello, denver. did keckley ever write about other african americans working in the white house during that? no, i'm not really so.
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she doesn't include and i think this is really interesting, actually, there's a ton of detail in this memoir about other people that are working at the white house. it's really few and far between. when you see mentions of other members of staffs necessarily. she does talk a ton about the lincolns, though, for sure. i see her holding up the very new lincoln there. i would i would recommend the listeners look at the new lincoln by john, which has just been reissued again by new scholar. but that does describe a lot of detail about other people of african american descent who worked in the white house, who. i think also elizabeth knew what would sell this book. and so why she includes tons of about the lincoln's what it it's of detail about everyone else. the lot of there are several questions here related to the nature of her shop were.
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one question were the dresses shown recently at winterthur in delaware and what were the names of many of her successful students? did they become successful? so what what did she. i don't have a great answer for that one in terms of names and legacy, again really focus most on her years in the white house directly. i know that her shop in d.c. though you know we have an address for that people have tried to make some of these sites in washington d.c. where they know keckley and been or lived there trying to, you know, add historical markers to those sites. some of them are still standing. so that part of it is certainly exciting. there's a shout out to my friend debbie in d.c. wants to know about coakley's spiritual strength to get through so much her life, any church connection she does have church connection.
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she does attend church and she is quite spiritual. i think that and you can tell that in her writing. i think it's really interesting. she has this sort of interesting relationship slavery and how she just gripes it afterwards. she usually will evoke things. she'll evoke god, she'll evoke things like the constitution. so what i'm what i'm talking about here is that like right in her initial preface to the book, she says, if i had portrayed the dark side of slavery, i also have painted the bright side the good that i have said a human servitude should be thrown into the scales with the evil that i have said of it. so she sort of both sides sing that a little bit, but then she says basically of her southern they were not so much response for the curse under which i was born as, the god of nature and the fathers who framed the of
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the united states. so in this one, she's evoking, you know, the higher powers. she's not blaming individuals, but talking about god. and she's talking the constitution of the united states. i think she does this as well when she's describing the birth of her son, appealing this higher power. that wasn't a personal choice of hers, definitely does have some sort of relationship. there was. information from kathleen in spring field, illinois, the abraham lincoln museum has a collection of marital ed lincoln dresses. there we go with gifts. let's get one more question in before we have to wrap up. today, a forest from ridge, florida, asks, does elizabeth make any mention of mrs. lincoln's outburst and mental state while in the white house? i think you do get a sense that that quote i had on when she first brings the dress and she's late and lincoln certainly has an outburst where she's saying, you know, you're late, i can't
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go down. and she you can tell she's, really getting upset. you also there's a couple other moments like the way that she describes the grief surrounding willie lincoln's death. you do definitely get the sense of her mental state. there. and i think that also comes through actually. you read the letters at the end of the book that elizabeth includes after this whole dress saga, you can again get a sense of mary lincoln's mental state. there. she's quite demanding of elizabeth keckley and is very strong minded about that. sure. yeah, very good. that's wonderful. andall right.
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