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tv   NASA Jet Propulsion Lab Apollo Program  CSPAN  August 28, 2019 6:27pm-8:01pm EDT

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hello and welcome to nasa's jet repulsion laboratory in pasadena. a hot afternoon and for our monthly public lecture series, i'm preston dyches. 50 years ago three human beings set out on a journey across a quarter of 1 million miles of space to the moon. two of them sat down on a fragile landing craft and one stepped into history uttering a phrase we know by heart. for that one human being to make the one small step to the efforts of hundreds of thousands of people over the course of a decade. in industry, universities, and government. -- didn't play the leading roles but for all who contributed to play a small role in the space program
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today, something that mattered. >> the primary role is to help lead the robotic explanation of the road-- of the system developing communication technologies that contributed to apollo.-- used for communicating to all spacecraft . it was used to receive the astronauts tv transmissions from the moon and was also a vital communications backup especially during the tense days of apollo team. caltech, long a world leader contributed to field training to the study of the samples that they've returned. tonight they will hear part of the apollo story. the road and how scientists at other institutions teased out
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some of the moons greatest secrets. we will have to go speakers. if you are watching a live webcast you can submit questions by you to chat. our first speaker, jpl is fortunate to have an award- winning producer on its task. blaine baggett 's first space production was spaceflight, the first nationally broadcast series ever made about the space race. one key advisor was apollo 11 astronaut collins who called spaceflight the real stuff. the executive producer of the astronomy's also produced for pbs. in 1999 he joined jpl and is now a fellow working on films about their role in the like-- expiration of space. he is the recipient of the highest honor that nasa
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bestows on a civilian, the distinguished service medal. if that's not enough his birth they just happens to be july 20 which is the very day he they made the first human landing on the moon. please welcome blaine baggett. >> [ applause ] >> thank you and good evening. it's fantastic to see you all here. thank you for coming out. i'm just delighted to see so many of you. my birthday also serves as the day that we first landed on my's-- mars, so something was meant to be i think. maybe i'll just stop while i'm ahead. the more that i have come to understand the moon, the more
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i appreciate them for their incredible diversity.-- with these moons, hyperion looks to me like a seashell.-- looks to me like a ufo and if we have any star wars fans, i don't have to make a reference but there's the dark star. but there's more to the moon than just unusual shapes. moons in our solar system are now the prime targets in our search for life. saturn's moon is a beautiful, icy world. geysers are constantly a rep thing. titan which also orbits saturn has rivers and lakes but they are
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made of liquid methane and nasa announced an exciting mission called dragonfly that's going to explore titan. on the right is jupiter's moon. beneath the icy crust is a waterworld to contain more than in all of the oceans of the earth combined. here, we are hard it work for mission to be launched to this world. these moons and many other, there are almost 200 and the solar system, those and many others exist in the outer solar system. if we move toward the sun we find a different story. mars has 2 small moons. venus and mercury have none. only the worth has a sizable
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moon, and a beautiful moon. why that is, we only have one large moon, is a great mystery. i will leave the science and the engineering that it took to get us there to 2 great pioneers here with us tonight. it's a great honor and privilege for me to share the stage with them. as for the present, we are in the news not only because of the apollo 11 anniversary. we are in the news about the moon because nasa has declared we are going forward to the moon. it's the next step on our way to mars. time will tell so that this is the latest case and whether
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being moonstruck is going to actually stick again. the biggest question i think is whether we will have the will that translates into the funding to go. those in favor of going to the moon have the argument. first, the technologies have come a long way in the last 50 years. what we've learned about the moon helps to make the case for going again. for instance, once it was thought that the moon was bone dry. that has turned out not to be the case. missions by nasa have found evidence of water and craters were sunlight doesn't reach. these are prime real estate for future exploration. there you see some examples.
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if you wish to live off of the land as nasa says it wants to do with a permanent presence you need water. by the way, india is about to launch, scheduled for a new mission next week. it's a combination of an orbiter, a lender, and a rover. what is the purpose? it's going to go prospecting for resources including water. and then there's china. its space program is growing by leaps and bounds in china has made no secret of its interest in exploiting the resources of the moon. a chinese river launched in january this year is now roving on the moon and on the far side of the moon were direct communication is it possible, it's an impressive technological achievement.
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by the way, i don't know if you know where the river landed on the far side of the moon but it's an a crater named after theodore von carmen . i hope that name stands familiar. it's none other than the first director of jpl and for whom this auditorium in this lecture series is named after. i can't help but wonder whether the selection of a crater named after him is somehow intentional in terms of where the chinese landed but i'm not exactly sure what the message might be. the point i'm trying to make is that we may be at the beginning of a new space race. a space race, this time, that is a multinational one. a moon rush where the prizes the stakeout regions suitable for establishing in the present. speaking of space races let's
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go back to the first one to understand how apollo came to be. that means we have to go back to 1967 and we are going to watch a video clip from one of my documentaries, destination moon, which i have butchered it myself in order to show it in a short clip. can we roll the first clip? >> in october 1957 the soviet union shock the world with the launch of the first earth orbiting satellite sputnik. america's response, a satellite called vanguard was also a surprising inspect secular event.
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>> vanguard was the only one in a long string of set backs in the united states space program. on a visit to the us, nikita khrushchev made sure to understand the bit disparity between the two nations. >> a second spent a scientific feet have a heavily capitalized on by propaganda and games solid foundations to ghosts of soviet achievement. >> america's hopes rested with its newly formed space agency the national aeronautics and space administration. nasa was given an assortment of facilities across the country. one was the jet repulsion laboratory in pasadena california. of all the groups inherited, jpl was a part.
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this return research center was staffed by one of the world's most renowned university. the california institute of technology. jpl-- were accustomed to independence. from jpl's per spec of nasa was a newcomer with no no portfolio. in contrast jpl had built missiles in the first successful satellite, explorer 1. jpl was led by william pickering. when nasa asked his ideas for the robotic space program he responded with a plan that called for flying an armada of spacecraft to the moon and nearby planets. >> sputnik has been called america's tech logical pearl harbor. it was a shock to the psyche
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and the reaction has ranged from reasonable like placing emphasis on science and math in classrooms, for which i suffered, to the extreme. the ideal of setting off a nuclear bomb on the moon to demonstrate america's tech logical capability. >> a number of well positioned people toyed with this idea including the father of the hydrogen bomb, and the jpl director at the time william occurring. pickering. you see an air force report because they explored this idea to great depth creating a report that went 250 pages. one aspect was to consider what science might be derived from measuring lunar debris that would be scattered by an explosion. one of the credited researchers was a college student of ce
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sagan. that's right. the late carl sagan who would go on to become one of the world's best-known scientists and an outspoken critic of the nuclear arms race. meanwhile the soviet union continued to surprise and confound. when chris jeff made the first visit of the soviet head of state, they timed the trip to coincide for the first mission , kind of rubbing her nose in it. two weeks after that they took the image to the far side of the moon. at the time it was a tech logical triumph. eisenhower could only grin and bear it. 10 weeks after john f. kennedy took office, the soviet union struck again watching the first human in space.
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in kennedy's inaugural address it was allowed in a speech that the soviets and americans should so explore space together at the lunch changed that thinking. a frustrated kennedy wrote this memo directing the vice president johnson to find a way, anyways to beat the soviet union. what would it take? a space lab, a trip around the moon? or any other idea. note his impatience. he wanted to know if the people involved in the space program working 28-- 24 hours a day, and if not, why not? to get the answers, johnson turns to james webb and the
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secretary of defense john mcnamara believed the real hope to have the first person in space was landing an astronaut on the moon. mcnamara didn't think that would be enough and argued for a mission to mars. a human mission. the more practical proposal went out, and kennedy took it to congress and made a very famous speech proposing to land a man on the moon and return him safely to earth before the decade is out. what's not well known is the story of the phrase before this decade is out. it was a last-minute compromise. he was given an advance copy of the last-minute of what kennedy was going to say, and to his shock, it mentioned
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1967. in 1967, we would not be saying today that nasa met kennedy's goal. now let's turn to his role of getting footprints. even before the speech he was working on two common projects. the first was called ranger decide designed to be a series of spacecraft that would take close-up images of the moon before crash landing. even crash landing turned out to be a lot harder than expect. i will be asking john casini to relive his life about those days but for right now let me summarize what happened. ranger 1 didn't work. ranger to core to work. ranger three didn't work,
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ranger 4 didn't work. ranger five didn't work. at this point the lab sat down and regrouped. a year later they launched ranger six. it worked perfectly except in the last few minutes when it's camera refused to turn on. no pictures meant another failure. january 30, 1964 was jpl starkest day. in exactly this room as many people as you see where people listening to what was going on live. imagine what they felt like. let's see if they had any luck with ranger seven. be aware you are sitting in the same room as some of the same people, some of the footage you will see of some of the same people. >> you have six rangers which
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failed. with each failure the pressure became more intense and after number six this was really a catastrophe. >> i had no fear of the lab falling apart. it was quite the opposite. everybody pulled together and basically, what can i do to help? >> six months after the debacle jpl was ready to try once more. it required working three shifts a day seven days a week. the next one, seven, was a severe strain on everybody because it had to work. and if it had not worked, there's no telling what jpl would have been like or what would have happened to jpl.
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it was a sobering experience. >> lunch was a textbook flight. three days after liftoff the auditorium was once again filled beyond capacity with people and tension. >> tape recorders were started at 13 1307 and we are anticipating turn on momentarily. five seconds from full power. we have full power on-- channels. >> all tape recorders are recording. video is very strong. seconds impact, video still good. three, 2, 1. impact has
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occurred as 1325 504. dasher functioning properly. >> roger. >> when impact occurred the auditorium erupted in a great cheer. people shook hands and hugged
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workforce has succeeded at the moon. the television camera recorded some 4000 images that are not much to behold today, but the time they were scientists in this room declared at the time. 1000 times better than any image of the moon from earth. now, the rangers, by the way here is some headlines just to give you some sense of, i think it reveals the sense of anxiety that was relief, you know the relief of we had finally succeeded. i am interested in to hurting the mind rioters -- i do not know the story about that. i will have to look that up. anyway, so after ranger came, the surveyor was a far more complicated mission, this was about soft landing on the moon and staying alive on the moon
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for some time. let's just watch the video. i think that will tell more than i can. john, if we can roll it back, please. >> all all of the questions nasa wanted answered, the most important was doing with the surface was like for apollo astronauts. was it solid, or would layers of dust act like luna quicksand and swallow them whole nasa had hoped the answers would come from surveyor. this is jpl's first experience in overseeing on behalf of nancy nasa, the work of an aerospace company. but, the contractor, hughes aerospace was struggling for good reason. surveyor was far more technically challenging than
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the rangers. this spacecraft not only had to soft land on the moon, it had to do so autonomously. it was also expected to send back images and science data from the lunar surface, not for a day, but for weeks. >> that was a difficult trying period, because we were growing up at the same time that -- was growing up. we do not always mesh. a trying time. >> the aerodynamic shroud is often grand bahama is tracking. it is shown by the aerodynamic diagrams. the scimitar separation has occurred.
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>> 663 hours after lunch, surveyor one with only 1000 miles away from the moon, with the speed increasing as the moon's gravitational attraction beckoned. >> ignition looks stable. all is study. >> the vehicle was supposed to enter a fixed rated descent. that happens. >> 10,000, all signals normal. surveyor recorded excellent condition. all signals good. 100 feet 13 feet per second speed. >> 70 feet above the surface the engines were supposed to shut off and they were supposed to rock to the surface. the engines all shut off. and, you could hear a pin drop.
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it worked. we were down, it is still transmitting. >> for the first time in american spacecraft had achieved a space landing on another celestial body. surveyor one operated for six weeks. in all, the sturdy lender since back than 11,000 images before it's batteries ceased to work. and nasa had the answer to its question, the lunar surface was solid, unsuitable for landing by the apollo astronauts. >> this is actually my favorite surveyor image, because every single time i look at it, what i see in it is almost and neil armstrong stepping off the
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lunar module. but, it is not, it is the shadow of surveyor one on the moon. now, i do not want this evening to be guilty of committing the sin of omission. so, i want to acknowledge the soviets were the floor first to join the moon with lunar mine. it used airbags, which we adopted to go to mars. so, it could be argued that this was not a soft landing. and at the time, it was not large enough to erase doubts whether the lunar surface was able to bear up to the weight of an apollo lander. but, it is interesting to make a comparison between the lunar 9 image of the moon, and a surveyor image of the moon. and, we begin to understand that being first does not
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always mean being the best. what happens to the soviet union program in part was the concentration on first, actually hundred the technological development. for completeness, i have to mention one more first by the soviet, that few people know will remember. would you believe if i told you the apollo 8 astronauts are not the first things to fly to the moon and return to earth? that is true, that is a fax. these were the first earthlings to accomplish that. it is easy to make a joke of it, but, zion five was serious business. it demonstrated the soviets were very serious about sending astronauts to the moon. but there are versions of saturn five that never worked.
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i would like to make one more connection between jpl and apollo and, it has to do with apollo 12. as you probably, if you have been watching, the great documentaries airing this weekend on the news, you probably know, now, it was not well known united space x 1985, but apollo 11 landed with only 20 seconds of fuel left. something like that. that was because the computer overshot where they were supposed to land, and they were headed towards a fuel of boulder. so they had to find a safe place to land. the mission planners were not going to let that happen again, they wanted a pinpoint landing for apollo 12, and they wanted to make sure they had a landmark to know where they landed. so, they chose it, on the moon everything was the same. he decided to land next to another surveyor, surveyor 3. that is it, what you see in front of you with pete conrad.
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and, my favorite all-time astronaut. and behind on the horizon, you can see the lunar module they landed in. and they used a hacksaw to take off the camera of the surveyor 3 , and a piece of the scoop, and brought it back. there was a sense some scientists felt when they took it to the lab, that they found microbial life on the camera, that had come from earth, so they sneezed on it, went to the moon, survived for three years, and went back. that has been discredited now. they now think someone sneezed on it after they got back. but, what is important about it, this is exactly the same time scientists were beginning to understand that life is far more hearty and far more
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tenacious than we ever expected, and there was more possibility for life elsewhere in the solar system. so, that to me is part of the legacy also of the moon landing, is that i believe, now that we are, right now working hard to go through these other moons in the solar system, to look for life, it is really one of the great quest of all time. so, i want to leave you with this image, of two footprints. one is robotic, one is human. to go to great quest that we want to go on, it is going to take both of them. thank you very much. >> outstanding blaine, that was excellent, thank you very much.
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with that historical background, we will change gears to hear about some of the signs of apollo. as you will hear, many of the elements in our understanding of the moon that we take for granted today, were actually huge mysteries in 1969. and, those mysteries required that new techniques, and new scientific instruments be developed. after all, no one had ever studied a pristine sample from the moon before. our next speaker is one of the people who helped develop those new ways of staying the lunar samples from apollo 11. when he and his colleagues learned helped them to completely transform our understanding of the moon's history. arden albee grew up in michigan and studied at harvard, receiving a phd in geology. he came to caltech in 1959 and retired after 50 years as a professor of geological and planetary sciences. during that time, in addition to teaching and research, he served as chief scientist for six years right here at gbl. and he served as project
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scientist for two years, excuse me for two nasa missions to mars, stick to the script. as well as serving the memorable committees and boards for nasa and higher education. so, we will look at the site of the apollo lunar samples, please help me welcome dr. arden albee. >> thank you. as you see, i have been around here for a long time. i wore this jacket because i found it in the back of a closet, and there is a possibility i wore it 50 years ago to the first one. my daughter says and no way, but it has been back there for a long time. mine is going to be a little bit more if i was there, and i'm going to tell you some funny things. some difficult things, some mysteries.
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in 1610, galileo, use a very early telescope to provide our first real knowledge of the moon . and in fact, until the arrival of spacecraft, other telescopic work did not add much more to that knowledge. on this first slide, we see the large smooth dark areas which galileo called mary oh, or sees in italian. and the surrounding areas lighter in color which are pitted with craters, which he called craters. he did name them as craters. these intensely cratered areas, which appear white in contrast to the dark mario, became known as tara, or highland. indeed, they were higher than the dark color basins. many controversies about the moon, as we heard a minute ago,
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permitted for generations. extreme positions were taken by gentlemen with great eloquence, but true facts. now, almost forgotten now is the intense debate on sept subjects as the depth to which a spacecraft might sink into what the lunar does. the relative roles of volcanism, crater, water, and shaping the landscape. and, whether radiation could be accumulated in the dust from the radiation of the solar system, and cause an explosion when the astronaut put his foot down in the soil. and finally, the presence of exotic organisms in water under the surface. many of these seem very passi to us now, but we have to remember such controversies consume countless hours, millions of dollars to settle, and thousands of printed pages during the development of the apollo. the lunar ranger of the lunar
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surveyor projects at jpl and the lunar orbiter projects in langley were all undertaken to resolve some of these and other questions that affect the safety of the astronauts for the mission. now, clearly we all know that apollo did not think out of sight in the dust. and, it did not explode in landing. but, in fact, the apollo 11 spacecraft with samples, and the crew, were actually quarantined for 21 days until testing showed that exotic organisms were not present. now, engineers and planners work for a decade, more than a decade, to solve the problems of getting to the moon and back. at the same time, scientists were working on problems that would allow them to interpret the lunar samples. they didn't know it at the time that is what they were doing. in the late 40s, scientists have been involved in a war effort, they had no knowledge
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of isotopes and took them back to the universities. and a new generation of graduate students begin to use these tools to tackle problems in geology and other fields. these included some of the ones that you probably know about, the 4.6 billion-year-old age of iron meteorites. highlighting the health problem due to the lead additives in gasoline. and, detailed study of impact craters here on earth. isotopic geochemistry was born at the university of chicago under the leadership of nobel prize winner harold yeary, and others. their students moved to caltech and other universities around the country in the early 50s, and continued in these kinds of studies and were they to become critical to understanding the returned lunar samples. well, in the mid 60s, the apollo program began to find
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the scientists that developed clean labs, instruments, and new protocols and procedures to prepare for the return of the samples. hundreds of teens from many countries were chosen to work on the apollo 11 samples. resuscitating the development of new precision instruments, and labs for the analysis of small samples. a number of these teams were at caltech and jpl, chosen to work with different approaches. i was part of a team at caltech dubbed the lunatic asylum. which included quite a variety of different approaches. now, during the quarantine period, scientists and technicians in the lunar receiving lab or making preliminary studies and preparing samples each had been selected for distribution to various teams. these samples were sent out under strict security. we had to keep them in the safe, etc.
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and, an embargo on releasing any results until the apollo 11 lunar conference in january 1970 in houston. each team was required to arrive at the conference, turn in a written paper, give that paper, and then publish that paper without any changes. this event amounted to a real blind test, and in addition, there was a fixed word limit. i can remember spending my christmas vacation in part editing and reediting our manuscript, to see if we could take out a few words here, and get a few more words in there, because that was one of the difficulties. the combination of these rules set up a giant blind test of all of these new techniques. then, everybody headed to houston, tense with excitement. to see what others have learned, and to see if they had gotten it right. but, the new implementation
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came through with flying colors. if that came before, we could not have gotten all the data we got, and if we had it, we could not interpret it because we did not know what to do with it. but, what were some of these measurements? both studies of the mineralogy and chemistry texture of bulk composition of rocks. they are used to determine physical and chemical history. trace chemistry is used to determine specific chemical processes. topic analyses are used to study a wide variety of chronological and geochemical problems. these samples were examined for a whole variety of physical properties, such as magnetism, and seismic wave velocity. it is probably obvious that no one team could operate with all of these techniques and methods. well, let's see this next slide.
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we are looking here at the lunar surface, which you have seen. there are craters everywhere, fine dust, and here and there are rocks sticking up out of it. now, our team members like most of you know, and four in the last few days, the entire world actually, that looked over armstrong's shoulder. as he zoomed over a battered war zone of craters of all sizes, and over a pile of rocks to land on the lunar surface. so, here we see that surface and a ray of small craters. standing on the ladder, responding to earlier concerns toshi -- responding to earlier concerns about the mission, and landing, armstrong actually commented in the life broadcast that the spacecraft had had not
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sunk into the soil. our next slide that shows what the soil looks like close up. the fine soil on the larger fragments, and the larger rock fragments that you see there were all fragments broken in the intense cratering that had hurled them to the site. there was nothing that we collected that came from bedrock , geologists are always taught they have to collect from bedrock, but there was no bedrock to collect from. great anticipation we examine that is our soil sample under the microscope, and began to start our tour of the moon. this next slide shows a handful of apollo 11 soil. it contains a wide variety of material. is originally very dusty, you have to blow it off to see
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these beautiful particles. in part, these are transported from a very great different distance by multiple cratering events. so this soil provides an answer to the first question always asked, what is the moon made of? one group from harvard studied nearly 2000 of these little fragments. to see exactly what they were, under the microscope. the third of the fragrance were dark rock derived from the mare. a careful look identified them as salt, which is the most common volcanic rock on earth. and, it did not take any special equipment, just an experienced eye and hand lens to be able to make that determination. about half of them were mass of broken rock fragments cemented by class which is formed during
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the impact. about 5%, the light ones here, let's hope i find the right end. these light ones are calcium and aluminum silicate known as amosite. now, the team looked at these and took a giant leap. they inferred that these have been transported from the highlands, the highlands were far away. it would take multiple impacts to bring that material. nevertheless, the material was abundant. they took an even greater giant leap, and inferred that in early amosite was produced by floating of the east crystals as they crystallized from the melt. so, they floated to the top, up towards the surface.
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this idea of an early ocean of molten rock became dubbed the magma ocean. it was created with considerable surprise, maybe even considerable doubt. now, we expected to see irregular glass globs. blood, but, the president of all these beautiful spears was a great surprise. i should probably note, if it flies through the, not the atmosphere you got to be careful here, if it flies through space, it is going to be spherical. the next slide shows some of these because they were intriguing. we spent lots of time playing with the balls, they were brown balls, long balls and balls. they were red balls, hollow balls. if we see the next slide here, here is a half of a ball, which
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has been broken. and, on this fresh surface, we see these light dots, in particular, all through this area here. each of those is an impact crater from a micro meteorite. one of these is shown in the next slide. here, we see where the impact of the micro meteorite was. it has a molten shell around it. then, there are radio outflow of what is now glass, and beats going out further and further in all directions. and, if you look deeper in it, there are fractures underneath it. these cups like this, sometimes broke loose, and we found those cups just floating in the soil as well. now, one of my favorites is a
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cup like this that actually hit another meteorite. so it is a micro meteorite hitting an iron meteorite, informing these beautiful caps. so, the next slide, so it's a bombardment of the atmosphere. now, unlike earth, which is protected by its magnetic field and its atmosphere, the layers of the regular sampled in the lots, and inquiries from each mission, reserve a record of me to write, of cosmic rays, and the solar wind and flares. the energy of the solar flares differs between the wind and the flares. so, these particles come in and are deposited at different depths. the flares tend to be positive
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deeper in the rock, and the winds higher up. the cosmic rays have an interaction with the material and the rock, and produce new elements, which can be analyzed . so, these things can be used to look at what has been for many using all of the spacecraft, and looking at different depths of soils, and different depths in rock, you can understand what the radiation effects have been enduring for many time. one of the interesting things is apollo data shows that the average sailor flare activity has not changed over the past few million years. and, there were many theories up until then that solar flares are responsible for climate change. but, there has not been that kind of specific change. high on our list of questions,
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because this is the main reason our particular group was chosen, was to investigate the dark mare rocks. our group of caltech received portions of them that study today. upon your first site in the lab, it was very clear that they looked a little different than terrestrial salt. the typical volcanic throughout much of the world. and, therefore quickly answered the question that had been asked for 1 million years, what is the moon made of? we knew we could not tell anybody, not until we got to use them. the next slide shows a, photos of a thin slice of a rock, one of the mare rocks, and looking at it under a microscope, and across polarized light, and reflective light.
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this device allows us to identify the different minerals in the rock, study the picture for comparison with assaults on earth, and in particular, to see that were the last bits of the melt crystallized and what the composition was. it turns out, the features which you see there are a little different. it could perfectly well have been collected from a frozen pole in hawaii. however, when we look at the very late stage crystallization, we see distinctive differences, terrestrial basalt, always end up with some water bearing minerals in the last interstices. typically little clay minerals. they are not present in the lunar rocks, there is no trace of water, they are perfectly clean and not altered. the other thing is that, that little white thing right there in reflected like is a globule of iron metal.
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indicating a reducing state of that final note that we simply would not see. so the question sometimes i will ask is can you tell a lunar basalt from a terrestrial basalt? well, at first glance, they look alike. but indeed, from details, you can understand the differences. now, this next slide is a little bit complicated. it is what we call a strategy evolutionary diagram. we received five samples of the mare rocks, portions of them. we dated them, each with ages close to 3.65 billion years. no, the radioactive decay, rubidium 87, with a known half- life is basis for the dating. this diagram shows iridium
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8786, because that is a convenient way to determine them. these rays are measured in a number of different samples taken from the lunar rocks, now for abc. which have different compositions along this line. and, if they make a linear line like we see here, we can see that they had originally formed along this line, and it decayed for the same amount of time back to that line. this is called an internal as a crime. it is used to measure the for brady and stretching ages. and, they are probably the bulk of the ages from the lunar samples are bourbon and strontium measurements. again, because of the embargo, we couldn't talk about this
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exciting date until a conference . we learned other groups, we have gotten similar results with this, and other isotopic techniques. these results provided an absolute age for the widespread rocks for tranquility. and later missions dated mare rocks from different basins. the next slide is a cartoon if you will, which summarized the time history of events that has shaped the lunar history. now, if we look down at the lower part, we are looking at the oldest part of it, and what we see there is that it is heavily created, cratered. no crater can fall without partially obliterating previous craters. during this half 1 billion years. within it, you can see a group of basins. the lunar orbiter data in
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particular, that photography enabled us for geologists to map these basins, i am, from these basins, to see what the outflow of the objective looked like. in the same manner, the various mare basalt shown here, lunar 2416, and each of those had been mapped by geologic techniques, and basically, you look at the overlap relations. if it is a lapse on older rocks. and, there, you can project us through to get a relative time sequence. so, on the sequence we see on the right-hand side, and we see on the right-hand side shows a whole set of features which has been identified and for geology. they provided a relative timing.
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a relative sequence of what had happened on the surface of the moon. but, on the right-hand side, you see that we then have dated these various lavas. and these lands allow us to make an absolute scale for this timing. so, this timescale is still used today. in supplied to earth, mars, and other objects in the solar system, for which we can come up with a relative sequence of events, but we do not have samples yet in order to actually measure the age. now, we will come back to this, but we will see that almost everything in the moon happened one half billion years. since then, very little has happened to it. now, the next slide i want to talk about is the mystery of
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the program the family. it is sort of a detective story if you will. the volcanic rocks is derived by partial melting of the interior of the planet. whether it's the earth or the moon, that is how these assaults form. now, the major element composition of the mare rocks didn't differ greatly from salt. but, people who worked in the rarest elements, these are the whole set of rare elements, which acts very much alike in most cases because they are very similar in their size and charges. and the people that use these to understand the difference between assaults which were derived from the ocean crust, and the salts which were derived from the continent.
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and to see there are distinct differences in the way the rarer patterns are from those two sources. when we look at the lunar ones, they show a very different one. but with the striking anomaly of the element program. maddie x interesting thing is that europe ram, which actually means that the source down there had to then get depleted. somehow this had to be formed, and that europe ram had to go somewhere. we realize some terrestrial examples, that the formation of the valspar collects europe ram preferentially over any of the other minerals. so, this team, seeing this and noting it, they inferred that these crystals have formed, they subtract the europium,
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carried it away, and therefore , they made the interpretation that there was an early crust, which formed as a cumulation of calcium valspar. if you remember at the start of the talk, a group working in the east had looked at the particles in the soil, and where they came from, and interpreted it the origin of the highlands is being in the regulation of the same mineral. so, one group using geological approaches and particles in the soil came up with the same answer as the group using isotopic chemical approaches. in the fourth everything was constrained until we got to the conference it was very interesting to hear this coming from two very different directions, and also to research groups that would hardly ever talk to each other.
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now, we learned a lot more in this process, the floating of the upper crust, by study of samples from later missions. it seems to be related to the presence of other unusual rock types. we will see a photo of a couple of unusual rock types. the first run is a photograph of a true intersite mr site and a rock shop. this is a sample of that outermost crust rich in mo site and high in europium. the next slide shows from caltech and apollo 17 collecting a denial sample, a sample consisting entirely of --. there it is right there. they knocked that off and brought it back. it shows in the next picture.
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, this case it has been highly fractured and crushed up. you can see both this section of the actual route. now, and the nights are not uncommon under earth, we find similar fragments are denied in the sulfur that come up in hawaii and in her own desert. then another one there are rocks we will look at the next slide. this one is a complete poles puzzle. i wrote four papers on it. i don't know any better. this is a rock very rich in potassium, rare elements, and phosphorus. it is like our granite summer, but we do not know how it fits
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in. each of the samples which i have pictured we have dated. each of them has dates of around 4.4 billion years. they are telling us something about the very early evolution of the moon, but we do not know exactly what. now, just a few intriguing detective stories and every one of hundreds of scientists involved have their own favorites. so, let me close the summary what i think we will learn from the apollo missions from a scientific sense. little rock studies that provided the cornerstone for the scientific findings from lunar exploration by spacecraft , and such studies are still ongoing with even newer methods and samples i have not yet been studied you may have recently heard they are about to release some runs that have been held in reserve and will be available for study. and of course, we have kept splits of everything we have worked on and those are still available.
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these findings have completely changed our understanding moon. and it's evolution as well as earth and the other planet. we now understand that the lunar surface features are predominantly the result of impact by numerous huge projectile's during the first half billion years of lunar history. and, most of the younger and smaller craters were also formed by impacts not by volcanism is commonly thought. the role of the clinician stuck predominantly to the filling between three and 4 billion years ago if the mare basins, which in themselves recited from much earlier impacts. the moon did not formed by slow aggregation of cold particles that slowly heated out as reformed prime theories. instead it was covered in its early life by molten rock from which a calcium aluminum silicate enriched crest formed
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by floating. floating in the mount as a crystallized of the mineral place. as the outer part of the moon became rigid, the source of volcanic lava migrated down read in depth to below 500 kilometers. since 3 billion years ago, volcanic activity has been very infrequent, and localized. one of the most important things, which we still struggle with, many geochemical similarities show that moon and asked him formed in the same general region of the solar system. it is a relationship not yet understood. they are fundamentally different than your other moons. so, all of this knowledge is the gift of apollo. thank you. saint apollo.
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>> we are going to bring our chairs on here. thank you so much. we are going to make a transition to a discussion portion of our show, pardon us while we get some chairs on stage here. to cap off the evening, we are going to transition to a little discussion on the apollo era as it appeared to us here in pasadena, and the legacy of apollo. i would like to welcome back blaine and dr. albee. and, they are joined by one of our jpl's coming up on the stage now. in his career, in his career, he served an engineering development roles on several early lunches to earth orbit and the moon. including leading the design team for the ranger spacecraft which blaine spoke of earlier.
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he held a senior project positions in many of the mariner missions to mars and venus and was project manager for three minor space missions that jpl was involved in. i think the recalled galileo, kasumi, and voyager. he also served as jpl chief engineer from 1994 to 99, joining blaine and arden is john cassano. >> i just had to say again what an honor it is to be with both of you. it is a privilege. >> speak up. >> okay yes sir will do right away. , what i'm going to do is ask a few questions to get us going. and then, i am sure you have questions. some of you standing we are so appreciative of you being here, i want to make sure you get a chance to ask questions, too.
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john, we have not heard from you, so we will give you a few minutes here. since you were in charge of a design of the rangers, what were you doing wrong? what was your main problem you are having? can you talk about that? >> i had a hard time getting these very liberal caltech type people who would pay any attention. i solved that by taking them out for a beer. and, now, we had never done anything like this before, nobody had ever done anything like this before. and the jpl at that time had been involved in deciding guided missiles for the army's jitter and stuff like that, and there were a bunch of good people there, but they were old like me. and they didn't want any part of designing something that new. but, they knew what the principles were.
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they knew the things that had to be done, or the way they had to go about doing something very complicated to make it successful, interfaces, and making deals, and having a way of tracking whether your progress gets some. everybody had a product and everybody's product was something else's input. and managing that whole concept of deliverables and receivables, schedule, documenting what you needed to do, that is what they taught as. and other than that, the rest of it, figuring out the nuts and bolts was pretty much up to , nobody can help us. and, they were smart enough to let us go. for the most part, we were smart enough to pay attention to what they told us was important and we try to do that. somehow or another it seems to work. >> i remember you telling me once, we did not know what we were trying to do, and there was no one who could tell us what we are trying to do. >> that's right. there was nobody we could go
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and ask emma what about this or that, because that was stuff that nobody had ever done before. >> and also, the rangers, just to be clear about this, the rangers had problems, some of the sales because the rockets were not working. it wasn't just the problem with the spacecraft. >> the mission consists of two parts, a large vehicle to get whatever you're lunching going. and then the thing that you are building, the spacecraft goes on top of the launch vehicle. so, the launch vehicle guys are having problems, and the spacecraft people are having problems. ranger went into, the first two spacecraft worked perfectly. but the omissions were counted as a failure because a large vehicle launched it up, put it in orbit and the earth, around the earth, and then halfway around the earth, the first days of the launch vehicle have to ignite a second time and accelerate us out of earth orbit. well the first time we did that it didn't work then, it was in
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the upper stage, and somebody said there was a relay that didn't work. it will never happen again. we said okay. so, we did this ranger, too, and exactly the same thing happened. so, those counted as to ranger failures. but there was a logical. then, the ranger three and four, those are both spacecraft failures. one of them was another rocket failure. it was going back and forth. but, you know from anybody, is our community, our community is the scientists, and the engineers that are working on this, but also there is the political community. and politicians are finding this, and the newspaper. so we had a lot of failures one after another. >> what does that do to your morale? what was it like here?
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>> well, it was sort of disappointing. but victory made a good answer that question. >> actually did that interview i let you do that interview. >> what he said was i depicted us in the club, but somebody said wasn't into demoralizing, whatever obvious failures. he said no it wasn't. because then again they made us more unified and more committed to find the problem. and, everybody pitched in. that is where we learned, you can't just do your own job in this. he also had to be looking at your shoulder and watching what people are doing. because if they don't do it right, the missions are not going to work. so, everybody wanted everybody to work well. so, we tried to help out and whatever we could.
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even the funny thing about engineers, they like to solve problems, that is what engineers do. the heart of the problem, the better they like it. one of the problems we have is if you give an engineer a problem to work on, and if he does not fight hard enough, he will find a way to complex a fayed. to make it something more fun to work on. so, that was the other problem. it boils down to polishing the cannonball. and we developed a sane, better is the enemy of the good. it does not have to be better, it just has to be good. so, knowing when to stop improving things is just important as knowing when to begin. >> i feel managers have to keep politicians happy. >> well that's the other thing, too. we don't fire a lot of people for making mistakes. in fact, sometimes a person has made a mistake. having made that mistake makes it more
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valuable, or her more valuable in the next assignment. he made an investment in that person, a million-dollar investment. >> i have been waiting all night to ask you this question. we know that the russians early on have been sending dogs into space. i have read you were among some here at jpl thinking about sending dogs to the moon. tell us the story. >> we were part of the initial task force of trying to figure out how to put astronauts on the moon, all of the centers were. we had people that would work under the name of a guy named charlie cole, they called him coles commanders. they were doing the architecture of this whole program. they were hoping it would put man on the moon. that is crazy.
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he put him in a basement space, then we have to get him back. somebody's as well, why don't we train some dogs. you can train dogs that do remarkable things. we can teach them what they need to do and the way that they need to use a hammer or something like that, put them in a spacesuit, some of the moon. then, when they are than done, they died but you don't have to worry about bringing them back. i am neutral about dogs. i am not a dog hair. dogs have a facility for me, and so do goats. goats and dogs. i'll tell you the story about the go sometime. >> another time. >> so that was never very fast. so, i went to ask about the
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origins, can speak about what some of the thoughts are that scientists have about how to remove him to be quite >> we know because of similarities that earth and moon are closely related. they are reform from the same, if you will, batch of meteorites. which we don't know is exactly how it was, was they collated, changed matter, the sorts of things? the basic theory is not operating, in which people are working in great details, the details of the collision process and everything. if there was a collision between two major asteroids, one of which basically became hers, and this collision combines many of the materials in the two. so, that we know. but exactly the details we know.
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every issue has a slightly different touch. >> so, the theory goes it was for 1 billion years ago. about the time of the earth was formed, too. >> yes, they both performed at the same time. and, the key thing really that makes them come together the oxygen isotopes. they are so similar to each other and so different from other meteorites. so, it is a unique circumstance. >> said the same geologic code. and can you talk a little bit when you mentioned the molten see, did it cover the entire work? you said how this incredible vision. >> the highlands are that frozen magma, and they cover everywhere around the moon.
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so, yes, it is how the moon cooled and crystallized. >> okay. so, i would like to throw it open to questions from the audience. would anyone like to come up to the mic? >> hi, i would like to ask if there were any differences between the different ranger probes from 1 to 6. >> any differences between one and six rangers. >> was there any difference between >> the rangers, 126. >> yes. we developed rangers sort of like, i can.
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two volkswagen, you ever owned a bug, they all look the same on the outside. if you buy one one year, and then you by another 13 years from now it looks the same but the made improvements under the hood. in a series of gradual improvements, that is the way we developed a ranger. ranger one and two, while the rangers basically i've had three axis stabilized. you know, you have role, hitch, and y'all. and when we did first ranger one, we only controlled and hitch antioch, we did not worry about role. off the side we had an antenna that had two points to the earth. well, the role position matter. you know, that is another way of positioning the antenna, for the ranger one, we did not control role. and then we did not have any propulsion on it, then ranger 34 and five, to put role controls so we can put the antenna. and we added ocean. so, each one of those rangers had incremental capabilities
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that was engineered into it, but everyone was built on an earlier one. it was a progressive stepwise development. >> that reminds me of the fact that the first project manager told me the story that was was thrown, the project barrier early on, they have actually anticipated was contamination that massacred the requirement that we sterilized its spacecraft. and that meant making them. you are baking your electronics to the point where you did not realize you were going to have to bake your electronics. >> that was not part of the original design requirement. i was running the ranger 12 program, and i had a big battery in the middle of it. and, they said you have to sterilize this battery i said wait a second, we were designed to be sterilized, well you have got to do it. so we talked to people and said yeah if you heat it up to you know 125 degrees for 34 hours
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that at to tell anything in there. burned out until the battery. we didn't know it. at the time. then a few weeks later, over a weekend, it ended up with a spacecraft with a battery in it up in the building, building 18 as we were testing it at the time, the battery exploded and able electrolyte all over the spacecraft and everything else. we said holy mackerel, that is not a good idea. we did not know for sure. but we were pretty sure it was the t sterilization. because, you know, people did not usually do that to batteries. after that, we put a temperature on it and put a new battery in, cleaned it up, and we watched the temperature continually. so, i got a call one night. i do not think it was thanksgiving, but it was thanksgiving weekend, and this is the temperature is going up
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on me, what are you going to do about it? i said call of a technician and have them meet me in there. it was in a little test chamber outside building 18 and we climbed up in the chamber up and a little derek kind of a thing. and, i remember this guy who said bring your drill motor and a quarter inch drill. so, when we got up and there, he said but you will need to do? is it i want you to drill a hole at the top of that battery. he said what are you going to do? i said i'm going to stand back here. it worked fine. >> yes sir? >> reporter: earlier this evening, we saw a picture of the front foot print of a surveyor on the moon. we would not be seeing the footprint of the footpad wasn't in it. ! we are seeing the footprint? >> my understanding on surveyor three, because i have listened to the audio of the transcript
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of pete and all, what they were saying through that period, is that so >> okay, thank you. >> hi, thanks for a great talk. this question is for dr. lb. i was wondering if you tell us a little bit about the history and mineralogy of the lunar samples from the museum? >> i don't even know which one is in there. these were distributed to the various centers, and i don't believe i've ever looked at the ones in here. what number is on a might annoyed by that? >> i could check if you want >> i look will look at it afterwards. >> we are going to go ahead and make sure we get a couple of those in. okay, let's see.
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the person with the name, let's get outside now wants to ask dr. lb what did you think when you first held a piece of the moon when that like? >>you know during the look of that soil sample you have to go get that those glass balls are crazy. you didn't expect them to be there. why do you have these beautiful spheres, but you deal. and they are everywhere in the soil. >> one more question from social media. just what they want to know, what do you think you are the ways that the best way to show the new generation to apollo and the vast amount of information learned, what should we do to communicate that forward?. >>that is a very big and loaded
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question for a professor. [ laughter ] i think. the question, there are certain things called the apollo affect. have you guys heard about that? when the apollo mission we are spending so much money on the program, there were not enough engineers or technologist in the country involved to do all the work there was an excitement to send men to the moon and it attracted a lot of young people that would've wasted their college years being doctors or lawyers to go into science engineering and technology. i think really, it made it possible. i think other countries jumped into the wagon, china and
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everything else they knew about the politics is what they were doing, that's why they are in it now. so, i think the thing, to get people in, is to make sure the missions we do, from now on, are not just science missions. not just technology missions which are good, but are publicly engaging. so it gets them interested. but what a wino [ laughter ] -- but what do i know [ laughter ] >>as we enter a new era for spaceflights, what is the most important message to remember from your era of space exploration? >>one of the most important things for the next generation
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and next era of space weather to continue with continual transition, you have to remember apollo basically had no computers. now they are filled with computers. the whole arrangement is better -- different. we basically had a network on board connecting connecting the parts of the spacecraft so it was basically like a wi-fi network. so, that mono transition happened between apollo in the next emissions that jpl began doing. >>what advice would you have for the next generation of engineers? >>there so many dimensions to that question. you are talking about the terms of engineering and development to make something successful, or, how do you approach people, to do things so that they will
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last a long while? we learned terry slowly, and very painfully over a long period of time, that used to be the main problem is twofold. first one was parts electronic parts. most of the things you have like vacuums you can depend on a vacuum tube to last more than 3-4 years, not many of you are old enough to remember that tv sets with vacuum to use what you would have to call the tv repair man and he would come up with a bag of vacuum tubes and put a new and him he would say, you are right we need to plug the vacuum cleaner and, when you through vacuuming you have to plug the tv back in we had a lot of calls like that. and then things would fail. when we got into transistors, they were invented in 1954, 53. i was still in college and learning about back rooms. when they brought these transistors in. you could not even get out you
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could get a shock from touching them so people believe they can do anything. >> you sell 1 billion cell phones you put eight incredible a lot of money in the developing these techniques, all these micro spacecrafts, which we are talking about, directly the cell phones. >> in development something always goes wrong, anything that does go wrong, you have to follow that to the root cause, you have to drill down and find out, exactly to the degree you can what happened, and then dent then do what you can do to prevent it from happening again. that is key, you have to have the discipline and unless you have that discipline, and the need to do that you have to instill in the young people. is fixing and going on doesn't mean it's not can happen again. you have to find out why it went wrong, and fix it and fix
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the thing that caused it to go wrong and then you are on a good track. that takes discipline and a lot of tedious work. it's not fun always, that is why you go out and have a beer at the end of the day. >>building on that, looking from my perspective when i see her when i was in mick my intern years, miniaturization is very key and the complexity of the software. the software will get you before the hardware. we have a couple more questions. >>a brilliant idea setting off a nuclear bomb on the moon? what was destroyed on that? >>there is someone in the department, or air force working on not.
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our department always working on an idea, a crazy idea then but some are technologically interesting. >> today not know about space debris? >> yes they did i'm sure they did. what it would do in terms of millions of miles away i don't know if they were particularly worried about that. >> thank you. >> last question. >> hi i would like to know which of the seven ranger probes cost the moche given costs much cost him much money the most expensive ranger to build? >>it's our budget&.we have an accountant on our hands. i don't know if we can actually
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identify the cost of each individual ranger, they were built as the program. but, each one had more capability and was able to do more things. so ranger 3-4-5 cost more than one-to. and at five and six cost more than three and four. because, there are so many failures, we had to bore in on those failures, like i was talking about before which meant more work, or people, more testing. each one, would cost more than the one before. the most expensive one, would've been the last one, which was ranger 10. >>inc. you so much for your question, that is about all the time we have for tonight i would like to thank everyone here and online for joining us. thank you for our speaker especially. [ clapping ] >> join us again next month, for our show, work planet at
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the big size of the small worlds will we will see you then and good night. [ clapping ] [ music ] >>we are featuring american history programs all week as a preview of what's available every weekend on cspan3, lectures on history, american artifacts, real america, the civil war, oral histories, the presidency, and the special event coverage on our nations history. enjoy american history now and every weekend on cspan3. >> in 1979, small networks and an unusual name rolled out. our viewers make up their own minds, c-span opens the door to washington policy for all to
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