per. >> watch this program and thousands more online at c-span.org/history. >> now, our guest today which interest or guest right now professor caroline and her book ends of where the unfinished fight of lee's army after appomattox. let's take a quick look at it. we are going up some things to share with you. this is going to be a fun show. but, the unfinished fight lee's army after appomattox comes to from university of north carolina press whom we think forgetting professor on this program with us and for publishing this fine book.

we are selling to you in the first edition. it is three to 31 pages, illustrations and maps are going to share some of those with you during the course of this conversation. we are send this first edition copy to you with a custom abraham lincoln bookshop signed bookplate too. i want to thank you, for signing this book plates sending them back to us. folks at home, let me tell you a little bit little bit about caroline e janie she's the professor and history of the american civil war and the director of the center for civil war history at the university of virginia. that is a lot, i know that job that is the job. >> it is a wonderful job pretty could not be better. >> the namesake on your job is

really one of the unheralded heroes of civil war history. someone's collected years for years and years of priceless pieces of american history. and now most of them now reside with you at uva pre- >> a special collection we now have somewhere between 30 and 40000 letters and diaries that has collected. an invaluable resource we are just beginning to dig through these and figure out the many, many things he collected. i'll make a pitch here, we are going to be digitizing this collection and making it available worldwide for everyone. >> that is wonderful. let's was with their collection which was also the result of a collector going

out and doing what they love to do. i will do a pitch for abraham lincoln bookshop. if you want to collect stuff, is a perfect example of what can happen with this obsession of yours. it is valuable, it is not just you. it is a really valuable thing. so anyway it is a great job congratulations. i know you love doing it and you have all this great stuff to work with pretty quickly for the folks at home, caroline is also the author of remembering the civil war, reunion and the limits of reconciliation. and burying the dead but not the past ladies memorial association the lost cause. when i see that book of course i think of having karen cox on this showed just a few months

ago. of course there's the late robert e lee statue in richmond. but of course she'd already done dixie's daughters. this topic of women, southern women in the postwar is crucial to understanding the civil war. >> rate. the work that karen does it dovetails nicely, i think our work dovetails nicely together. the lee money or the former lee monument the daughters of confederacy rallied around affects the women i wrote about in that first book who are part of the initial plans to build that monument starting in 1870 and after lee's death. >> right, right. anyway that is a different book. someone wants to order caroline's one of her earlier books we might have them,

contact us. but today were going to talk about ends of war. if you have been following my social media post while he been reading the book the last month or so you know i am crazy about it. so much about this book hits me dead center i love this book. so let's just jump in and start talking about ends of war so folks watching at home can get an idea of what they can get if they decide to order this book. now caroline it is september of 2021. in a war is ending. so, people of the united states and people around the world are watching something happen. they watch how war ends. if nothing else there probably understanding this is a complicated, messy and heartbreaking thing to happen,

they just do not bring down the curtain and everything is fine. so, i think your story is a story about how war's end. it is one where the one you're talking about. the story about how war's end. just because we close your book does not mean the troubles of the people you talk about her over. why does the end of the civil war interest you so much? >> i think you have tapped on several really important themes there. one of those themes we are in the midst of the war ending it is not clearly ended yet. that was absolutely the case for americans, white, black, north, south, loyal, disloyal, however you chose to describe them in 1865. i was not quite clear to end a work militarily, socially, legally, all of these

questions were very much up in the air. there is a reason there's an s in the title and of war. i don't think there's one particular moment that we can point too. for so long we have a short hint of a tummy tuck by the end of the civil war was a appomattox and we all seem to be on board with what that means. on one hand that is fair because people at the time currently hoped appomattox to be the end, or some people at the time. it is not entirely clear. i think we are living in that moment right that now what does it mean to end a war? but also the point i try to make in the end of the book is that all of these things that happen surrounding would have a long lasting effects,

effects we are living with today in many instances. >> right, right. the next thing you do will be open your book, most of it as the investigation into what happened after lee's surrender. for those at home the book is not going to be that interested in palmetto ranch or confederates crossing the rio grande or something like that. although i know you recognize that is important. or talk about virginia. what made you want to look at that time at lee's army after appomattox? to keep that going when other had closed. >> a couple of ways in which this book came together. the first two books i wrote you mentioned memory of the

war, i was well aware and kept bumping into things that are happening in the spring and summer of 1865 regarding how unionists are thinking about their former enemies, do they call them former enemies? are they enemies? the ideas were out there but my initial intention edited a volume that looked the appomattox campaign. i went to write one essay about what happens to lee's army after appomattox. we had a notion coming home and gone with the wind we have other cultural references of one or two soldiers drifting home. we have the notion a bunch of vagabonds terrorizing the countryside. i was not clear how a confederate army was disbanded or demobilized.

and so i thought that is a great essay. i can delve into that. it did not take long getting into the research before i realized this story is so much more complicated than i had ever imagined and that blossomed into this book. >> indeed it is a complicated, complicated book. i think it ties in a lot of those complicated themes very well. during the course of our talk going to waive its many of those as i can. as soon as i open the book, they had me fascinated. i'm simply good to read the breakdown of these numbers you put right up front. right up front he had 60000 men when he left and 20000 or paroled. about 11500 became casualties including captured which is part of the story.

that leaves about 20000 unaccounted for. so what did the future look like to these 20000 guys? who are they and what was the decision they made right then? >> just to be clear when it comes to numbers in the civil war we are doing the best that we can. it's really hard to nail down numbers those 20000 men were not formally surrendered at appomattox, that is the question, what does because of these men who were these men? there were its many stories as there were men. some were seeing the writing on the wall. they realized whether highbridge for many of the other battles along the way this was not going well and lee's army could very well be

compelled they were fearful of what would happen to them if it captured confederates as a prisoner of war as they were held as prisoners of war. some refused to surrender and take off. others are foot sore and tired. they are physically unable to keep up with the relentless pace as it pushed west tried to move south not just avoid the humiliation but to continue the fight more so for the men who had horses as a simple logic behind this so artillery wrist and calvary men were the most likely to quite literally escape appomattox. they are able to write off from the various points of

departure with the plans for what they can do next. connate rhonda rhonda view perhaps in a small town in the mountains may beat the hills and ham with the shenandoah valley and reorganize. many of these initially well into june. the fight is not over. they can get the work on another front brake. >> reporter tells us he had we can do this we can do that the guys can go to the state and the governors could decide if they could continue. then part of what your book i don't think you handle it directly, your book says

doesn't say it led me too think lee never told his guys that. it wasn't until the order he told the 28000 that were still with him this legendary piece and directive. the other guys did not get that brake. >> that is a great point but is having that conversation he's telling members of his band this is what he wants. to my knowledge this was never directly communicated. at that point to it's also pretty late in the day. not that calvary and arturo c at the others have dropped out of the ranks it is too late for those men. >> for them to get an order and reply to it or comply with

it. talking about appomattox itself as you know is a whole genre of literature. even talking to the details of that there's not been one book written about each detail there's a whole list of responses. what i think that sells about appomattox to me, which we are going to talk about what we could spend the rest of the interview talking about it, is that in my mind especially the guys in the men in the parler historical event and legendary. helps stops here i start saying stuff over here. that is easy for us. but if those guys in the

parler knew something legendary was happening in this is something i think you like they start creating stuff the kind of stuff i like. they create the paroles get creative. because the men tear down this apple tree which turned out lee had not. there is this awareness in the parler that what is happening is eventful. and they are going 20 keep it. we are going to talk about a couple of things that we could spend the rest of the conversation talking about. one is, you share this scene painted by alonzo chaplin going to show it here.

you seem to have liked it as a scene even though there are problems with it. i'm going to share it here so you can discuss it and i want to know why you thought this was a good representative seen of the surrender. >> so i love this image in part there so many different versions of what happens, who was there, who was in their debates about whether sheraton was there or not. there are some paintings that include pastor there we know custer was not there. the various tables and there has been a lot of discussion over the years whether there were two tables or perhaps three tables. i think it only makes sense that eli parker was sitting at a third table. how else would he have been taking notes and jotting down

what grants, making copies asks them to make. who it wraps up being in the room. it's difficult to tell it's hard to tell who surrenders to it's clear in this image was the dates that alonzo chappell did this? >> i have 1885 prints. torches create strikingly different was 1870. i don't know whether this was an earlier painting it would make sense it was an earlier

painting. >> i will also tell you this, i've been obsessing about 1885 lately it is the year of grant is the year grant dies, it is the year the memoirs are published. it would make sense whether chappell painted it and someone would say let's get another piece of grant out there. >> absolutely. >> let's talk about the tables i have particular interest in the tables and i know you do too. two of the three tables and chapels of painting and i agree chappell's painting is most accurate in terms of stuff. they have lee sitting at the table that grant sat at and both of those tables are counted for the marble top table work grant sitting in this picture is i believe right there in chicago, and i

believe grant table that chappell has lee sitting at is at the smithsonian maybe? >> that is were i believe it is. this leaves colonels table which i think captain bauer set out for a while because i think bowers said think there's a story where he was supposed to write out and said my hand is shaking i can't do it. >> you are right. yes, yes, yes. i've seen bowers and artwork sitting at that table. that man with the strongest writing hand on grant's staff sat down at that table. you can see it in the background you see the legs you see there are two ledges. who would probably be easier for us to just go ahead and take a look at the table itself which does exist. it is the only table from the parler that day that is not in

a public it is in private hands. at a time not too long ago a few years ago it was consigned for sale perhaps it was out on the market. we had the opportunity, the honor of representing that owner and so that table got to live in the abraham lincoln bookshop for some time. and so there it is, there is the table. do not come asking us for. like everything else it was taken because they knew this was a legendary moment. >> it is so phenomenal to see it even and a photograph and think about all of those connections whether be the lithograph or what actually happened there. thank you for sharing that. cocksure sure this was taken

from by captain wells was the son of secretary of the navy gideon welles. it remained in the wells family for a long time. and the collector, who owns this it did belong to the wells family. it had been i thought at least once. one of those generations thought it would be a great idea to keep a fish tank on it. so at one point in the later part of the 20th century it got refurbished because it had fish tank stuff all over it. but like i said, i've got 30 minutes of our talk. >> real quickly i will add one more piece, in the book i also use a photograph when he is in richmond. and in that photograph used in

the marble top table that has been taken from the parler. you are right held value, whatever you want to think of it as a relic or otherwise people knew that what happens in that place was going to be significant in some fashion or another. i believe even mcclain's daughter there is a dull that was taken or sold, whichever the case may be by a union soldier. here's evidence i was there. >> exactly recite the men that took on that apple tree and took it home. [laughter] so before we leave appomattox there's one more thing that's created there that is important to your story that revolves on the terms of surrender. grant famously generous terms of surrender, which creates a

little bit of legal questionable legal standing. which of a practical effect on the standard itself is a try to get home. can you talk about the terms before he fell the confederates onto the road? >> the terms that grant offers which she will later say in his memoirs just came to him for he did not know what he was going to write with pen to paper the terms he offers are the men will surrender their weapons and their flags. and they will go home on parole. that is an important term we should maybe flush out a bit. but they are prisoners of war and other words. they are prisoners of war who were vowing not to take up arms again against the united states government. and the provision that grant ads is a new provision we do not see in other terms of surrender they will not be

bothered they will not be arrested by union authorities so long as they observed the laws where they reside. that is a new part. we do not see that in vicksburg, we did not see that in other surrender terms. we also add a line and i think this is important to point out. we no longer have unconditional surrender grants. there are reasons for that i believe not suggesting he did wrong. there is a little bit of negotiation that is going on here. lee will add until they are exchanged. this might seemed like a throwaway line but i think it's important for two reasons. on one hand, lee believes a release he has this tiny bit of hope that perhaps joe johnston's army or kirby smith's army will be successful and there will be a need for his men once more. so maybe the war will continue

it they will be exchanged. but the flip side of that is grant could strip that out and he doesn't. that is telling because he thanks this war is coming to an end. we can let that one go. but we can let that one go. it's a gesture it's really empty because of obvious that when lee capitulates the others will follow. grant very much has hope. >> that is going to create some legal wrangling later. what i want to do, boy, we just spent half. >> for the folks at home we just spent half of the interview talking about. >> the first chapter. [laughter] and i promise you, this is just when the book starts getting really good.

that is stuff we kind of knew. so you follow those confederates away from appomattox that is when this book really starts to get good. what they take with them, let's share another image not from our stock but from the library of virginia. they are all issued a parole. a parole pass. and here is a parole pass captain james garnet of the ordinance officer gets. this is a parole, this is a pass. witnesses do for him? what is it do for him when he goes home with his servant? >> right. he shared this with me just a little bit ago. i have never seen that added

line. i absolutely think this is fascinating and now i have something else fascinating to investigate. there is so much going on here we could talk about. i'll take up that bit of it does it say with horse and servant i believe it says? >> with horse and servant. >> lee had also asked grant if they could take home their horses. the officers supplied their own horses so grant agrees to that. but the more interesting part is servants here which of course means slaves insistent on the part of the story we knew a little bit about but i really tried too as much as possible. there were hundreds of black men that were still with the army of northern virginia

appomattox. most of them have been so enslaved them are either serving as a body servants which is probably what was going on in this case. or they had been impressed by the confederate government to labor. so both freemen and enslavement were impressed by the federal government to labor as cooks, as teamsters and any other type of laboring event. some of these men were listed in the paroles we look at the parole list you'll find examples of african-american men who are listed. but in other accounts we have men that are writing home about bringing their body servant, there enslaved men home with them. and so i'd tried to tease the story out as much as possible. what did it mean to be an enslaved person? or you free it appomattox in the short version is known not

necessarily. one of the really interesting things, grant says nothing about the enslaved men and to a lesser extent probably a handful of women who were with lee's army. he does address this at vicksburg. but the war still going on for the seem to be an assumption with the emancipation proclamation and the assuming victory slavery will come to an end. but all along the route home there are examples of confederates that are forcing enslavement in women to accompany them, to help them. they are hiding their slaves. there is one cavalryman who takes off immediately and the first thing he goes to do is hide the people that he owns to prevent them from making their way to the union army. so, i would love to investigate this, figure out who added with horse and servant. obviously that is not printed on the original passes given

score has printing presses with them. this is something for me too tuck away to pursue this is fascinating. >> now you've got me thinking to try to compare the signature, that is going to have to be a project for another time. two to let me add one other we could talk about these. brian is one of the officers that i mentioned the notion of ashley wilkes in one or two soldiers kind of walking away. grimes and others, there are entire divisions that march away from appomattox. the surrender terms that are created by the commission on the morning of april 10, tell them they need to keep their organization to the extent possible. so divisions, brigades, regiments are marching away and grimes is one of the officers who leads his men away. and many of those groups do

not hand out these parole passes until they decide to disband, usually a few days after appomattox when they realize they cannot stay in these large groups of thousand men marching away or even 200 minute marching away is not working well. and so i have to wonder. we know there were fake passes they had blank passes and filter their name. why not add just a little bit more here? >> maybe that is james garnet's hand. >> very well could be. [laughter] >> host: now you can start that investigation. >> need to make a note to myself. but then this leads us to the road and the road is a very important part of this story, with this book. i'm not going to make you talk about this i'm going to make a

very quick observation. your story really is, the way i read it, narrative and storytelling and chronological. you could have chosen to write a somatic book a chapter about this, chapter about this, but really you discovered the story of the war was still going. and you are right about that. so for folks at home, this is a story book in the story is fascinating and it keeps moving. when the thing that keeps moving a little question i will let you talk about, or if you want to talk about the narrative choice you can do that. roads are a big part of this story. much of the story happens on the road. a few years ago yale sternal examined the meaning of roads and routes it's in the bibliography.

so based on this new thinking, like what professor did or a few other scholars have been thinking about in environmental history, what is the importance of roads, roots, the place they are going and how they get there to the story of the demobilization of lee's army? >> what a beautiful question thank you. so it is the story of the roads are taken and the roads not taken. the times when roads are dangerous and confederates have not have been paroled will decide they need to avoid roads. i would also add though, it's passageways that marks the rivers, creeks and streams are also important. whether their avenues of invasion from flip into the james river and quietly try to

make their way past union troops, these are men who have not yet been paroled or trying to get home. but there is a dispersal that happens from appomattox for appomattox. the dispersal begins when the armies, all of the armies leave petersburg. but the roads that take men south also take them west. they take them to other points of potential transportation. they take them to places like brookfield, junction which is small free for those people might be familiar with the southside, brooksville junction is not much of even a little village anymore. it was incredibly important railroad junction just east of appomattox. it is worthy working railroad line as far as the light is working in the immediate

aftermath of appomattox. they're making their way there showing the parole passes you just gave us an example of, using that to get russians or hopefully to get passage on a train that will take them to someplace like a city point on the river at the junction of the appomattox and james rivers where they will hopefully either take a boat maybe to richmond to be the quickest way to get to richmond or perhaps i'll take a steamer and go all the way up to baltimore. maybe they need to get home to tennessee or kentucky. and so at their fastest route would be to take a ship that would take them to baltimore and they could take railroads from there. it is the movement away. but at times they are treacherous and there are times when being on the road itself could expose you. so here i am talking about

paroled or un- paroled confederates there are lots of other folks out there who are less than savory who are thieves and everything else but the men talk about trying to stay together so they will camp away from the road so they are not just sitting ducks out there at night. all of these decisions are being made, or defiant friendly people who were willing to share some of their meager rations? when did they demand it when do officers come people like grimes pull out their sidearms they have been allowed to keep and demand provisions from either individuals or from stores from quartermaster stores and might still be available. >> host: making the point the road could be treacherous to the ex- confederates and it can also be treacherous to people living along those roads as confederates come by. >> absolutely. you do not know who these people are. as with any society as with

any group of people there are certainly bad characters among all of these groups of people. there is so much danger and uncertainty. this will only become even more fraught rather than less so as the summer months unfold. more people are moving. and i'm glad you brought that up, she is cleaning out so many people are on the move. we have of course all the enslaved people whose status is really rather murky in this particular moment. but thousands and thousands are coming into places like richmond. cities are becoming very full. this is becoming an issue. soldiers are coming in. chaos is maybe too strong of a word but it is certainly chaotic.

the uncertainty, the fears are wrapped up in all of these various groups. >> exactly. i am going to check on our comments real quick i have to page over there and see who is out there. let's take a minute to see who is out there and see if any of them have questions or comments for us. if you shout outs, you will like this we have two regulars, dave from the uk in dave from gurnee, illinois. they formed a little cohort that is always here. we do have an international show today. dave bradley in the uk is enjoying it and says hello. and also zachary is watching he says hello. we have an answer to one of the questions we did not quite know and that is john has chimed in and said the cable

used by grant isn't definitely at the smithsonian national museum of american history it was a gift of libby custer and also let's associate chris i forgot the libby custer connection. >> didn't share it should give it took custer to give to libby? isn't that weird? >> custard was not in the room. right. or back in the parler. we've heard stories that sheraton did not want to sell his furniture and he threw it $20 on the ground that either keep the money or don't and taking your furniture. that is just one of the many stories i heard. let's keep going though with the shout outs. one is thanks for this program i enjoyed the book.

what is up next in terms of book projects? we will get to that. after that that is from hampton's and lots of great stuff. [laughter] wrote that so we have here now i'll check it again before we sign off. i want to get back on the road because those confederates were having a good time in interesting times up there on the road. this is something that's really interesting in your perspective of the book. okay start from appomattox but the new look out and suddenly the story appomattox in the posted days starts to involve other places in the people there so no longer confederate soldiers. so what is happening in places like winchester, virginia talk about, lynchburg, this is a place where women come into the story and become

protagonists in the story. what is their story of the end of the war, what are those questions? you asked me earlier there's approximate 20000 soldiers who were not paroled it appomattox. some of them have gone home to their homes. others, as i mentioned earlier have gone and are waiting in places like the shenandoah valley to be called by their officers to fight again. it becomes quickly apparent to grant that he needs to issue these paroles or this should be extended to all of the fragments of the army of northern virginia as he phrases it. so immediately even before the formal surrender ceremony has happened that appomattox, just to the east of appomattox are issuing paroles. some of those men are men convalescing in the hospitals there for the vast majority are men who should have been

in appomattox and they have not surrendered there. they hear about these parole terms to which many did not expect to be so generous and magnanimous. so that your themselves that happens in lynchburg as well basis as far as winchester. i was really surprised at the number of men paroled in winchester. somewhere around 2000 i found so far. i'm sure there are more out there winfield scott hancock is there and he not only has the exchange of letters between lee and grant, he has that published, printed, nailed up throughout winchester and the lower valley. i think that's evidence of look this really did happen for any naysayers who might not believe we have surrendered, here is evidence. he issued stern, come in, get

yourself paroled or be arrested and be in prison. this does happen in some instances he sends calvary up and down the shenandoah valley. those men who are willing to come in on their own will be paroled. those that aren't, or hold off two prisons and who knows when they will be paroled or they do not know in that moment. so throughout virginia the northern neck, that pencil of the shenandoah valley west virginia maryland even down to the carolinas men from lee's army are finding their way to other union officials and being paroled. >> host: surrenders happen everywhere hancock is a person a lot of people surrender to not granted appomattox. we have shown, or was i thinking about oh, brings us to not everybody gets, there

is one confederate officer who men my name are excluded from the generous terms who does that imply? >> that will be colonel and he is on the list of people that grant and others despise the most and are most fearful of mosby and his partisan rangers or as the union high command would refer to them as gorillas. at first, very briefly excluded from this blanket paroles but there will be all of these negotiations hancock will play a role in this. mosby will meet with union officials twice kind of dangling in front of them the possibility he will come in and surrender his command that the 43rd battalion had been

a pain in the neck for the union forces in and around northern virginia. they went back quelled in large part. this is another undercurrent throughout the book, that grant and also sherman are fearful of guerrilla warfare. we started talking about porter alexander and his question to lee. even though it might not have been the reality, there is a fear we cannot underestimate grant and others had of confederates refusing to seek parole and fighting the war by other means via some type of guerrilla warfare. so mosby is high on that list. so that's throughout the story. >> host: right, right. the sort of brings us north and west from appomattox. and so you do turn the perspective of a little but the dispersal of lee's army

the end of the war, the loyal states. whether what are the decisions made in the loyal states to suddenly wait a minute the confederates are no longer one place there everywhere. in maryland and other places. >> that is really an important point i'm glad you brought up. this is not just the story of what happens in virginia or what happens in the former confederacy. all of this is spilling out and rippling out into other places. none more so than the slaveholding states that remained loyal to the union, the border states as we call them. the big question is going to be for hancock, for grants, ultimately for the attorney general of the united states, james speed, whether or not confederate soldiers from loyal state specific this is maryland, missouri, kentucky and delaware not west virginia, whether or not they

can return to their homes. have they committed such a crime and lead leaving their loyal states and going to fight for the rebel army that they no longer have homes. i will offer this as a tease without getting into all of it. there is so much we could get into here. this is a problem. it is a problem local citizens will take into their own hands. if the united states and government is not going to effectively deal with this, then they will deal with this. west virginia becomes its own unique case because it grant and speed both say actually west virginia does not quite fit this mold it was part of virginia when virginia left, west virginia did not exist there is not a succession so people can go back there. loyal west virginians do not like the sound of this.

they're about 18000 confederates are people from west virginia who fought for the confederacy. this is going to be really problematical. >> these men left and they are going return to a loyal state. >> guest: rights. what happens if they are paroled and perhaps pardon, granted their citizenship back and now they are a voting block? what is going to play out then? >> it why do we want these disloyal men back in our midst? it is one thing to send confederate some two states that succeeded with the vast majority of the population supported the confederacy. it's another to send them home to places they are not wanted and that becomes very clear in the summer of 65. >> host: i will tell you this, professor this happens all the

time we should be getting used to it in a house divided. somewhere around the point of ten minutes left in the interview, everybody watching suddenly gets off now i have a question. [laughter] and so i have great questions i love to read my questions i will read them to myself later. let's leap back over to the folks watching on facebook live there are some great questions over here. i'm going to feed you a few. depends on how much time let me just ask how much time you have. i do not want to go along for five minutes if we go on customer part of it depends on how quickly you answer the question okay, lynn wants to know the question, how certifiable it really paroled the watermark?

how does someone fill her looking at a genuine paroled path? >> i assume you mean paroled pastor. >> and just to clarify there are paroled lists that were cap there in all these lists were compiled. those are different than a floral pass the plural fast with each individual man they were half printed at appomattox, like the one you show there's three different designs another source for another time. >> i have it up to show we are. >> those were given blank to either the regiment or sometimes the brigade commander there the people fill them in. to be clear it's not union officers union soldiers filling in. confederates are filling them in. there's no way to certify this if you don't have an id to

show this match is the you say it is. there are also lots of blank passes many are not filled out until the men leave. they have been marching away from appomattox say they headed south towards the carolinas and the officer decides you know what we cannot stay together let me fill these out. they are blank passes through a handful of instances i have found through letters and diaries were people recount i had a blank passes. i have a tale of two solar so good to marilyn get into hot water with the maryland congressman. one of them says he has a blank pass he filled it out himself. there is no way to certify it. there are paroles issues at places like winchester, there is more information on those paroles they include a description of the person,

include their hair color, their eye color, their complexion. their physical descriptions that i think are meant in part to serve as a legitimacy test that is in fact. i should point out those parole passes that were not from appomattox were issued by union officials. let me see here, we have a question from doug in kentucky, hello doug. he has written a good question when we take a look at it quickly okay, good question doug. doug says i would imagine the surrender occurred -- i would imagine that when the surrender occurred the confederate currencies were crushed to zero.

so particularly among confederate soldiers was there a great amount of theft, robbery, physical on the way home? >> that is one of the questions i was looking for. that is the flipside of the ashley wilkes image we have. i would say it certainly happened. but more often that not, at least in the accounts that are left, those on the homefront and by the soldiers themselves, many cap diaries on their way home. they weren't meticulous and recording with a got food from. who provided them shelter is not provide them shelter. they like to point out people who refuse them. but, there were also numerous instances in which they do talk about taking especially from african-americans. in particular there looking for quartermaster details they find several along the way

outside of what is now at roanoke, virginia and danville, virginia, greensboro north carolina for there's a reason they're heading to some of these places they know their stores of food and other provisions. so if it did happen it happened less than i expected i might find. we went okay, okay. thank you very much doug. and finally david bradley from the uk to know, would you agree please admonishment against guerrilla warfare and grandson generous surrender terms greatly reduce the amount of x confederates becoming lawless? >> always hard. i think if i was a betting person, i would say yes it did reduce. this is part of the reason grant is so adamant the paroles be upheld which is something i really dig into in the second half of the book

when many of johnson's cabinet are questioning whether they should be upheld. grant was even then saying look, if we do not uphold them this could evolve into something. : : have expected a lot more. >> okay, thank you very much. i have one more thing i want to share because it has something to do with parole versus past.

it's also something we have here and i can share with you, here's a close-up. if you decide to get yourself in abraham lincoln signature, this is one of the most common abraham lincoln signatures that exist. it's an endorsement so most of the time cut off of the letter and the rest of the letter stornoway. there is very popular, i didn't do it. [laughter] people did a long time ago when they were collecting lincoln. i can probably wrote more than any other time but this man take the oath of december 8, 1863 and be discharged. in this case, he signed december 31, 1864. in this case, for those of you want to see it, i'll put a link

in the comments so you can see it. it signed by lincoln and andrew johnson we were talking how many times were those men in the same room together but maybe three bucks this is a very interesting link but what it tells us, but this man taken out discharged. the law lincoln is talking about and how does it affect the confederates at the end of the work bucks. >> december 163, we can and should what became known as the plan that would part of any confederate to voluntarily surrender or put on their weapon and quit fighting the union. johnson, when he comes into office, is wondering to what extent lincoln more time rover

part of policy and amnesty, is amnesty. it is difference between parking amnesty amnesty. a promise covers almost every line, you can up and take the oath at your current. the pardon is for those excluded under amnesty and they have to apply. the very short version of all of this, a pardon did imply complete protection from prosecution could not be profited if you are issue a part of the question is, at the paroles already served that function or was there going to be a next step, what you follow through with a pardon this becomes one of the contenders issues especially among andrew johnson and grant in the summer of 1865. >> all right. thank you very much, i'm going

to have to get back to the issues at hand. there's so much we didn't cover, this was such a great book we didn't cover what congressman harris in maryland, they will have to read about it because it's great. you talked about the two confederate soldiers that testified but we didn't talk about, too much about virginia all of that and there's so much more to talk about but you need to get the book, the book is "ends of war", and finished work from university of north carolina, thank you for publishing this book and helping us set up this signing interview. 331 pages, illustrations and there are apps and i forgot to write down the price but you can

your program right c-span.org/history. >> today we're going to talk