history tv than signed up for a newsletter using the qr code on the screen to receive the weekly schedule of upcoming programs, lectures and history, the presidency, and more. sign up for the american history tv newsletter today and be sure to watch american history tv every saturday, or anytime online at c-span dot org slash history. >> good evening everyone, thank you so much for coming tonight. thank you to everyone here at the last cnn. and thank you for everyone on zoom. and joining us through c-span as well. before we start, i would like to inform everyone that this lecture will be recorded, and available for later viewing. my name is angelique moss and i am the chairwoman of the sister city committee. we are a volunteer city committee that promotes

educational and cultural exchange between the city of khan and normandy, and the city of alexandria here in virginia. this is the first of two programs that will be hosting this year for the anniversary of d-day. tonight is my pleasure to welcome back dr. hogan for our 12th annual d-day commemoration lecture. the doctor kim bernard is a professional historian with the u.s. army and was for 34 years. he received accommodations from the late john marshall, secretary of the army, and president ronald reagan's. he is the recipient of the 2008 joseph el harsh history award for the northern virginia association of historians. and the cover supplement of the 2016 t michael mueller alexandria history award from the alexandria historical society. his father served in the u.s.

army. this was as a medical officer during the second world war. and he took care of many d-day wounds on the return to england. later he served under president dwight eisenhower's medical staff. we were fortunate to have the doctor join us as a lecturer last year and in 2019. tonight he will speak on patents. he will speak on the missing generals of d-day. we will have time for a q and a afterwards. then we will invite everyone to join us afterwards for reception. and now, ladies and gentlemen, madam and mr., doctor kim. >> thank you very much. when i was called earlier this year about doing tonight's program hole i asked, what do you want the program to be?

they said they wanted something different and something short and well we will definitely have something different and short to leave more time for questions and answers. that is just as important as what i will be seeing up here tonight. i come from an old army family. my wife comes from and old navy family. tom that big game in december it gets a little bit touchy. that is as to who is going to win and lose. and of course, for those of you that are lucky enough to be married you know the wife always wins. we will leave it at that. tonight we are going to look at the two most famous generals. they are from the ego european theater of operations. when you talk about d-day you talk about world war ii, and

europe, and north africa. you end up talking about george smith patton junior, or erwin reynolds. they are certainly the two most famous generals that were not at d-day on d-day. that is george s. patton and erwin johannes eugen rommel. in may of 1994 rommel is walking along the beaches of normandy with his loyal aide, captain lang. he turns to captain lang and he says, lang, the first 24 hours will be decisive. for germany, as well as for the allies. it will be the longest day. with that, let's go to slide number one. i would do the slides but i am probably going to blow up the room if i do that. wait a second, i thought we were talking about d-day. that is a viking show up there.

who is that guy in the costume who looks like he should be at the queen's anniversary? well, normandy is being named after my viking ancestors who came down and saw the most beautiful countryside. it is the most beautiful in the world on the beaches of normandy. perfect for their rating along the european coastline and settling in. and so, they came around the or 980. they were smart enough to say. the next century one of them was william duke of normandy. he would lead the last successful invasion of the british isles. that would be in the famous battle of hastings in ten 66. so, it all goes back to a bunch of norwegians and swedes who did not want to eat fish anymore up in scandinavia and they came.

down so that they could take part in that wonderful french cuisine. they decided to stay, just like relatives come for a weekend and stay for a year. you cannot get rid of them. our sister city was mentioned, cannes it is the most important city in the province of normandy. not because it is our sister city but because it is a road hub. and as a rogue hub, ladies and gentlemen, it controls ingress and egress from all of central and eastern normandy. if you control it you control central and eastern normandy. western normandy is where the americans would land. that is critically important. it does not have the road network that cannes does. what is so important about that road network? it goes straight east to paris.

that is the diamond of france. so, consequently, if you take cannes you are on the road to victory to paris. george s. patton is next to the bat. he said, if the proper study of mankind's man, then the proper study of warfare our maps. patton like rommel it's a commerce or of his profession. he is studying maps and studies them. if you go to the movie patton, when he is flying from england into france, as he complains with all the other spare parts after the normandy invasion, what blue book is sitting on his lap? take a quick look in gold lettering. it is the conquest of england. it is all about william the

conqueror and how he developed a road network infrastructure in normandy to enable them to build a base of operations to invade england in ten 66. he knew that. he knew that all of the roads that william the conquer had belts, 900 years earlier, nobody else did. george did. what about george smith junior? when his family immigrated over from scotland they came locally. they came to fredericksburg. and they married into the family. you can go down to old town and you can see the medical apothecary shop. it is still there. you can see that it was a very famous doctor there during the revolutionary war of the continental army. a personal friend of president washington. he was wanting to go to west

point in the worst possible way. he has dyslexia. he is not able to until age 16 able to read and write. before going to west point what does he do? he goes to v am i to prep for a year. when he walks into the tailor shop to be fitted for his uniform the taylor says, oh, mr. patton, i fitted your father. here is my logbook. you have the exact same measurements as your father. you say your grandfather went? i will get his measurements. they are the exact same as yours and your fathers. this reinforces george patton belief in reincarnation. he goes to west point. he has a little bit of trouble that first year. he has to repeat it. so, he ends up graduating in 1909.

in 1909 this fine looking young gentlemen in the lower corner starts his apprenticeship at the officer condensed school in the baltics. it is now known as danced in poland. he graduates in 1913 and while he is there he meets and falls and loved with his dance instructor who is colin. she is half italian and half polish, i believe and they are deeply in love and this will come back to haunt them on june six, 1944. the great war comes in 1914. what happens? george smith junior is the training officer, and then, the combat officer for the first american tank brigade in their first attack.

he gets severely wounded in this. that is his backside. and now, he receives personally, from generals of the army purging their distinguished service crops, and he gets the distinguished service medal. in 1932 when they are first issued he gets a purple heart. he has an illustrious career during world war i. and then, he is a young officer in the german calvary. he is wounded in front of her in 1914. he goes back to recuperate in a hospital. and then, when he is well enough for combat, again, he is transferred to the front in the mountains and he surprises a small contingent of battalions numbering 70,000. he takes some prisoner with his company of 200 men.

he is commanding mountain troops and it is very elite. and then, a little bit later on in the alps he is given command of a battalion of 700 men. he captures a battalion division of 10,000. for those two accomplishments on the battlefield he is given the german equivalent of our medal of honor. this is the order of merit and these are both very distinguished young officers coming out of world war one. wait a second, what is that, that is pearl harbor being attacked. we are going to switch from the army to the navy. and george, he is always up to something. now, in 1927 there is an intelligence officer who was there for the hawaiian division in pearl harbor. when he transfers out for his

next assignment he writes a summary intelligence report. in that report he says, the japanese will attack pearl harbor on a sunday morning around 7:30 and they will do it with naval aircrafts. they will come in from the southwest. of course, they came in from the northwest. but, otherwise, they were 30 minutes later than his opposed attack time. everything else, he was right on the money. that is because he was a student of history. he lived, eight, and breathes history, all the time. later on he was stationed just up the road here, four times at fort myers. that was next to arlington national cemetery. in the mid 1930s it is not well known. he was the executive author. he built the old post chapel. many of you have gone there for

winnings, and funerals. then he became the commanding officer and when you go to patton hall, the officers club at fort myers, that was his administrative headquarters from 1938 to 1940. what happened to erwin between those wars? he is retaining a miniaturized german rnc. only 100,000 men, you know, you have to be the cream of the crop for an officer to be able to be retained in that german army. he has many assignments. all of which he handles extremely well. and, then in 1937 he writes his memoirs. he writes about these attacks, and now, when you watch the movie and patton is there in north africa towards the beginning of the movie and he is asleep in that luxurious bed, and he has a book spread out on

top of his chest, when the sergeant comes in to wake him up saying, general, wake up, we just got word from intelligence that there is going to be an attack. and he rears up in his bed and he yells out, you magnificent, i read your book. i say this is the book that he read. now, this book, it will cause the death of her when seven years later. we will go to that in a moment. this book brings him to the intention of hitler. hitler says, i want that crackerjack officer to be in command of my escort. my personal bodyguard with 500 men. that is what happens. world war ii comes and there is a german invasion of poland in

september of 1939. what happens? rommel is there in poland with hitler. hitler is almost right up on the front lines. they are under combat conditions. there is a long line of, what we used to call in the pentagon, strap hangers. they are staff officers, escort officers, and one of whom is a nazi lackey, by the name of martin, he is hitler's right-hand man. norman is a vicious, nasty nazi. he is as bad as they come. they have a run in. he is the officer in charge of security and he is tried to put his car ahead of this following the open mercedes, touring the battlefront in poland. they were coming under combat

conditions. he shuts this down. he never forgets that. he pulled out his little black book and says, get revenge on erwin rommel one day. that is coming in 1944. rommel decimal in poland that hitler gives him command of the seventh armored division for the invasion of france. and that division reforms magnificently. it is known as the ghost division because it races from the river all the way to the english channel faster than anybody else. and, because he does so greatly in the french campaign of 1940, then, when there are problems in north africa with the italian troops facing the british troops, in egypt, and libya, what happens? hitler turns and says, general, i want you to go down to north

africa. take to light tank divisions. straighten things out for us. that is where he gets his great reputation as the doesn't fox. he is absolutely brilliant. because, he uses tanks in the sand of the desert like a good navy as a kid. just ships at sea. but, how does he do this? he has a face at the sleeve that is not knowing about it for a long time. we will touch on that in a minute. george paton, meanwhile, in 1940, he leaves fort myers. he goes and sets up the desert training center. it isn't south carolina. and, in southwest arizona. you can still watch part of it today, part of the park systems out there. it is outstanding.

it is a burning concept. only george patent could have set up such an outstanding training center. because, you fight as you train. that is why the troops that go through that desert training are properly prepared for combat. now, in 1942, in november, he leaves the american liberation of northwest africa, the operation torch, and he comes into french morocco. later, when things get very, very csiky in tunisia, eisenhower, calls on him to save the day in tunisia. once again, he pulls eisenhower and gets his bacon out of the fire, so to say, and eisenhower, he turns to him, later in the war. he says, george, every time i get a promotion i get attacked. and george responds, every time you get attacked i save your bacon. they knew each other very well. now, of course, george s.

patton goes on from north africa to the invasion of sicily. he beats one of the finest units in the german army. it is given a verbal reference in the movie and he knows how to command. he knows how to use history. he knows everything there is to know about this. he has a trick up his sleeve, also. we will touch on that in a little bit. then, the great invasion is getting prepared. that patch, you see, it is a paton wore one. and then, a lot of g. i.'s, and others were. these it is the first united states army group. and i understand that you are going to find one of the originals of these. it is quite valuable and this was the phantom army that was set up to keep the german 15th

army away for the invasion. the german 15th army, if you have heard about it, there were 75,000 men. they said, just to the east of the province of normandy, they could have come right along the coastline and rolled up the allied invasion. if it was not for george paton with his phantom first army, there, the germans were convinced, especially hitler, that they would leave the assault in l. a. because it is only 20 miles from there to the english coastline. it is the most direct line to berlin. they are thinking, textbook, here is something to think about outside of the textbook. now, you see an aircraft there. that is a british typhoon. what happens to this, it is this airplane here as he is back visiting his wife on june six in germany. why is he doing this, because

it is her birthday? the german weather officer said, the english channel will be too rough for eisenhower to cross. not realizing that the captain stacked the scottish weather officer, and had given eisenhower a window of opportunity to do the landing. and, eisenhower rolled the dice and made the great decision for the landing on june six. this is after had pet already been postponed from june 5th. now, this is critically important because he has to brace back and open a staff car from one side of germany in south central germany to across the ryan. then through france to normandy. he gets there and find out that the allies have lodged a beach head. remember what he told people, that the first 24 hours will be decisive.

now, they are not fighting just eisenhower and the allies. he has to fight hitler micromanaging him from back in germany. he has to fight as to who is going to control what they are going to do. he had never fought against the allies and their overwhelming air superiority and overwhelming naval superiority. he had realizations, mentally, that he could not move his reserve units up to the front lines. you cannot do that in the daytime, over the local french roads if the allies, like this typhoon, tighter attack airline is hitting the skies, and shooting of everything that moves. now, late in july there is arriving through the normandy countryside trying to patch work together as a defensive

line against the allies. and a british typhoon sees him, as a target of opportunity. they come down on him with their rocket pods and machine guns, and it flips over. they suffer a cracked skull and lose his left eye. his cheek is crest. he is out of action. that is on the 17th of july. we know how the rest of the war goes as he drives to france and saves eisenhower and goes into germany, almost into czechoslovakia. he does not make it that far, but both and up dying because of automobiles.

now he is the first one to go. supposedly, according to his chief staff, who will become a big shot in the poorest war german army, he turns rommel's name over to the gestapo. he is up over his eyeballs in the assassination plot against. when that plot takes place on july 20th, three days after he was wounded. he tells the gestapo to come as he is interrogated. he says, hey, you ought to look here. maybe you can find out what is going on with the plot. he kind of acquiesced to it. et cetera, it's such era. so, he is later arrested, put in a concentration camp, he escapes, almost, at the end of the war, and resurfaces, and becomes commanding general in this.

it is very big. >> he is brought before to not see lackeys coming down from berlin. this is in october of 1944. and they tell him that he should go to a public trial and if that happens your family will be in jeopardy or you can take a capsule that we brought with us. your family will be spared. so, like the officer that he is, and was, he takes the cyanide to protect his family. this memorial that you see has been put up on the roadside down there. it is where he chucked the cyanide capsules. george patton up there, you see the car from the accident. it was in december of 1945. it was when the war ends in may of 1945, and patton comes back

to the states for a victory tour on the east and west coast. he also tells his daughters, the night before he flies back to germany for occupation duty, that i will not be coming home alive. strong premonition. i will not be coming home alive. he knows something is up, what is it? this accident takes place on december 9th, 1945. he seems to be recovering from it because he kept himself in excellent condition. both mentally and physically. that, he dies of a supposed embolism on december 21st, 1945. he is buried in the american military center in luxembourg. it is his choice. here is an interesting fact. eight years later mrs. paton dies of a brain aneurysm.

this is riding a horse. she was very much an equestrian. she is riding a horse. she has a plug crowd in the brain. she dies. she is cremated. her ashes are taken by the two borders, ruth ellen, and beatrice, over to papa's grave, as they called it. the night before they are to come back to the states they take the urn of ashes and quietly, and silently walk by the generals graveside. he has a standard headstone, nothing more, nothing less. they turn the can of ashes upside down. they spread her ashes over his grade side. the next morning, they have taken an army staff car back to the airport to fly back to the states. they asked the driver to go by the american military cemetery in luxembourg one more time. that seems like a natural

request. he drives by and they look out the window and there is a cat sitting on top of pop as gravestone. they are thrilled. why? because mrs. patton was a great believer in egyptian with -ology. in egyptian with-ology, ladies and gentlemen, the cat is the go-between for this life and the next. so, they knew it was another spirit visiting. it pleased them to know. now, most of you have seen the movie patton from 1970. it is a brilliant production. one my father had his first massive stroke after he was stabilized, next door here, at the old alexandria hospital, he was transferred in early 1972 up to walter reed army medical center. his roommate was called dylan. he had been a staff officer

with patton in the war. he was very truthful in the first war when he was in the navy. then he saw the light and came over to the army for the second war. he was a colonel. he was a tremendous, tremendous human being. and he said that when he saw the movie he said, kim, i thought it was the old man, himself. that is how good george c. scott got the movie. but, you have to be very careful of certain factors in the movie. because, the technical adviser was general of the army, omar bradley. there is a scene in there, just before the start of the german counter offensive in the battle of the bulge. where patton is informed that he has to have the tenth army bridge --

there is a river into germany. you have to let me go through. now, george knew something was going on up north. he knew that he wanted them to go down tomorrow morning. be there at 10 am sharp. the meeting took place and that part of it is accurate. but, there is a little twist of history going on when the word came about the german counter attack and the force for the battle of the bulge to start. that was in december of 1944. bradley, and eisenhower, and montgomery, and some other senior officers, they are having a card game. bradley was eating his favorite food and he did not want to have to leave the car game or the food. he pooh food the initial reports of the counter attack. eisenhower is the one who

jumped up and said, no, this is something serious. i have to get to the phone right away. and then, everything followed from there. so, you have a little bit careful, you have to be, about that particular scene. now, this other one, james mason, he portrays rommel. he does it brilliantly. this is the desert fox. this is 1951. it is a complete british production. the brits really know how to get inside the german mindset. it is brilliant. mason does rommel than anyone else before or since. but, what is important about the movie is the man who wrote the book it was based on. and then, his technical adviser for the movie. the premiere, desmond young, he had been a white colonel taken prisoner by the african court in north africa. he had a chance encounter with

rommel that saves young's life. thereafter, he becomes fascinated with rommel because of his brilliant exports as a senior officer. and then, his tragic ending because of the not seize. so, after the war was over general young, you see this at the beginning of the movie, he goes to everybody that fought with or against rommel. especially in north africa. he goes through all the official records, such as they were declassified at the time. he puts together the story of erwin rommel, and the book, and the movie or first ranked. why? because they are done only six years after the end of the war. it has what the germans call, zeitgeist. the spirit of the times. you cannot capture it today.

daryl, what the longest day, and the bridge too far, they are to hollywood a version. you go back and watch this movie on a desert fox. then you will find out about rommel. the man, and the officer, and how he stood up to hitler. what about books? years ago, there used to be a great tv series. it was a major film production by the library of congress. at the end of these they would say, the library of congress recommends that these are a few recommendations, here. this is superb because it is one of the reasons why it is the most up-to-date biography. they were both west pointers. there is a whole series done on the war in europe. basically, centering around, but not exclusively, on paton. also, highly recommended, a

mystery book on paton. if you want to find out about him, the human being, the man, or as rommel says in the movie, the meant, tell him about the match, the man. do not just give me a bio sheet to his aid. the buttoned box by ruth ellen paton, his daughter, it is more insight and definition in that book then you could shake a stick at. also, anything by martin bloom who was on the staff as a historian. i knew him at the center of military history as a crackerjack person willing to

sit down and share history and explain history. what are we doing here? we have cliff robertson and david soul. they are belly dancers. remember, a few moments ago i mentioned an ace of the sleeve that rommel later montgomery had a north africa. and that patton had, also. it signals intelligence. now, we know, today, the cold phrase, ultra, i will be one of the very few people you ever meet who worked on ultra when it was still ultra. and every time, and i had a top secret clearance in the national archives, every time we ran across the ultra on a page, just like in a hollywood movie, we had to stop and close the ledger book where the cables were. we had to raise our hand. a person known as a team leader, who had a clearance above top secret, top secret is not the highest level of clearance,

believe me. they would come and open up the ledger book with the brands in them. and they would take out that's page, put in a blank page, state and stamp it, and michelin it, put a marker on that ledger, and then, he, the team leader and i, we would then go to a big safe and he would open the sucker up, like something out of a holiday hollywood movie, and he would put the page in there. and so, i could certify that he had done it. because, ultra was still classified above top secret, at the time. here is the ace up the sleeve. the american military attaché in cairo, in the early part of world war ii, there was a very fine officer by fellows. he was sending back all of the information the british gave

them to general marshall. he was the chief of staff across the river in washington. he was with the war department. he was using the british code to do it. unbeknownst to general fellows, unbeknownst to the british high command, unbeknownst to general moisture here in washington. the gentleman's had broken this cold. so, it is like sitting at a table playing a game of poker and your opponent is sitting behind you as well as in front of you. he can read every card you have. but, you do not know that he is reading it. what unintelligent crew. and ramallah is able to get that information out of cairo and he goes all the way to alameda. and the british figure out what

is going on. it took them only two years. what happens? they pulled the code, change codes, and all of a sudden rumble is operating blind. what am i to do? at the same time, the british and americans have broken the german code. and so now they know everything communication wise going from berlin and rome to rumble in north africa. so now the tables are reversed. and they can sink all of rumbles supplies coming from the mediterranean into north africa. so russell is always short on gasoline and ammunition. always short on tanks. e and the americans are pumping huge amounts of supplies and to the british army in egypt. huge amounts.

they outnumber rommel in tanks something like 10 to 1 in artillery something like 12 to 1. aircraft, 7 to 1. it is just astronomical. so rommel is forced to retreat. patton will use the signal intelligence about degraded manage. both in north africa, sicily, and then in france and into germany. he is a connoisseur of the use of intelligence. i will tell you how he did it. this is the first time anybody will hear about this because i was told from the source themselves. a very good friend of mine at the center of military history, doctor robert wright, was good friends with kent roberts greenfield, and forest at the center of military history before i got there. but in particular, he was with the american army in europe in

1943, 44, and 45 as chief historian and the european theater. and he said every night in france and in germany, after dinner, paton and colonel bratton would walk out into the middle of the field and they would talk, and then they would walk back to the headquarters tent. no colonel bratton is someone who we are all familiar with from the movie torah, torah, torah. once again, pearl harbor comes into play. because he is the armies signals intelligence officer in the movie who tries to alert president roosevelt and general marshall about the japanese attack coming forth on december 7th, 1941. so later in the war, the real colonel bratton, he is then assigned to paton's headquarters as his ultra

officer. and that is how it was done. now, the key to it was made from the brilliant novel, and the old adage, many truth is said i am here to tell you many truth is sudden fiction. read the key to rebecca, david soul and cliff robinson did an excellent job on it. i was lucky enough to have a private lunch with david seoul many years ago when he was going to do a six part many serious on the civil war, and he asked me to be his technical adviser. unfortunately, he sold the rights of that many series to gregory pet so. pet could play lincoln. he was a very serious amateur historian. and he really wanted to do a

good job, much like he did here in the key to rebecca. this will give you insights, a side of normal history books on how wars are really won and lost. remember, the chinese warrior philosopher 2500 years ago wrote all a warfare is one by deception and deflection. that is what intelligence is all about. the legacy, the legacy of paton and rommel lives on, and on, and on. in the top left hand corner, you see paton's son, major general george paton, and he is commanding u.s. army guard, and he is being greeted by the lord mayor. and they became best friends,

and rommel became best friends with field marshal montgomery's son. now they have all passed away but they took that legacy like a baton in a relay race, and they turned it over to their daughters, and the lady holding the dog's general paton's daughter, the granddaughter of the world war ii general patton, and the lady in the white trenchcoat is rumbles granddaughter. the granddaughter of rubble. and here they are greeting an american world war ii veteran at a commemoration some room one. so they are passing the torch of the western nato countries which today we find so critical with the tragedy ongoing in ukraine. and that is a legacy of erwin rommel and george paton.

thank you. [applause] yes, sir? >> if you have questions please go over to the microphone enough them so they can get picked up. >> thank you. >> i was wondering if you had any theories regarding why patton never made it to where he should have been and how he could have been dispatched with a leg injury? >> everyone thinks that, on the outside, but looking into the military that it is one happy band of brothers. no. there is a tremendous amount of rivalries, depending upon where you got your undergraduate degree.

was it west point, vmi, norwich, the citadel, et cetera. colin powell, were are ntc? and it is like fraternities. so it is not a happy band of brothers, and there is a tremendous amount of rivalry. so that is, you are asking about patents data? >> how did he survive that? >> while he was surviving, he was recovering, they even had told him that he was doing well enough and had stabilized and they were going to can prepare a medical back flight from luxembourg, from germany back to the states. and the family thought that he would be home in time if not for christmas for new year's. all the sudden, he develops an

embolism and he is gone. there are many unanswered questions about patton's accident and his death. i can tell you from having worked two and a half years top secret in the national archives that it is, to me, very suspicious that the accident report went missing almost right away. that the army young soldiers involved in the truck part of the accident were flown out to england the next day. there's a lot of loose ends that leave me itching. and my personal philosophy as a professional historian for 34 plus years, i approach every situation as sherlock homes.

and i try to use that plus my top secret background and work. i spent nine years with the army general staff in the pentagon. i flew with them on helicopter missions. my father was a career army officer. he went from buck privates to lieutenant colonel for five years. so i was raised in that environment. and there's just too many loose ends from patents accident and his hospitalization, and then the follow-up or lack thereof. it leads me itching a scratch. and i am not satisfied with what we have seen so far we used to have an expression of the archives. am i a.

i know that means missing in action but in the archives it is called missing in archives. i will give you an example. i haven't talked about this publicly. i worked at susan. we had at that time eight football fields of national archives records in sullen. that is a long time ago and they might have 1 million football fields now. it looks just like what you see in raiders of the lost ark accept it is all paper. floor to ceiling. we had a fellow out there who is a heck of a nice guy. young college graduate, everybody enjoyed his company. he did manage work in my section he worked in an unclassified section. he was all the sudden not there. and i thought gee, maybe something happened to him. so i made an inquiry.

my acquaintance friend, what had happened to him. i was told didn't you know? he got quietly transferred because he burned a cart load of permanent records that were court quart marshall biles. never supposed to be burned never never. and he had taken them to the incinerator and made a stupid mistake and burned them. so he got promoted, and transferred. so eventually he recycled back to sudan. he was there for a while and then he was gone again. nothing said. so i made an inquiry again, through a mutual friend. and g, what happened to so and so? didn't you know, he burned another cart load of permanent records, these were colorado territorial land records. permanent records, never supposed to be burned, gone.

so things like that to happen. next question. >> rommel was not a party member, i am just wondering, was that common in the german general stuff? >> yes. rommel was a freebie in. he was from the province of written berg in south central germany. he was not -- he was not a not see party member, never was. he was under hitler's spell. hitler was like the pied piper of handling. he was a magician. he could, i will tell you what

happened to me one day at the center of military history. i am walking down the hallway, and approaching me is -- he had been a german officer. a mid level staff and combat officer. he had fought throughout europe. his family was german nobility. they were not prussian, but they were ivan's. he was the most handsome men i had ever seen. he came right out of hollywood central casting. and he had 1 million dollar personality. and because i was born -- i am a -- like rommel, we've got to talking many times. so one day we would approach each other in the hallway, and i stopped him, and i said mr., tell me what was hitler like? because you had lunch with him many times before he took power

when you are a student in munich in the 1920s. and he would sit there at the pier garden, or at the restaurant, and you would discuss politics, and the german situation economically. he looked at me, and he said kim, he is your height, 5:10, he is thinner by 20 pounds. at that time i weed 170. so put him at 150, which was mine football playing and high school. he said everything hitler had was in his eyes. he said once his eyes locked on you, he had you. he had that mesmerization ability. he could almost cast a spell on you and hold you with his eyes. this goes to abraham lincoln in

that lincoln said you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot full all of the people all of the time. hitler took in rommel on a personality level, initially. but rommel eventually came to see the light of the evil, and the corruption in the nazi regime. yes sir. >> this is not a patent your rommel question, rather a question about historians in the military. i am wondering, you mentioned that there was a historian assigned in europe in world war ii. i was just wondering if you could kind of comment on terms of what would their role be, and what sort of access what

they have, and how would that work? >> dr. forest had complete access to the high command, but of course you have to remember the high command is fighting a war. so they just can't sit down at the lunch table and lean back in the chair and talk with you. they had full access to the staff officers who do the work, make it flow. they could see the commanding general in action and maybe occasionally get in a question, a q and a with them. eisenhower himself set up the entire army history program because of the civil war, official records of the war. after world war i, eisenhower is chosen by general fox connor who was an operational genius in france to be his aide in the

panama canal zone. so they would go up on weekend, on horseback trips, you can't believe how primitive the canal zone was in the early 19 twenties. and they would go out on towards inspecting areas for defense and preparation, and camps, and training. first night, outfox connor says to ike, like, what do you think of history? and ike jumps up, now he has got 1 million dollar personality, he's also have 1 million dollar temper. he jumps up at the campfire with fox connor. and he goes i hate history. conner is really taken back, because eisenhower is considered an up and comer. and he says why do you hate history? he said because when they taught at west point it was nothing but memorize a shun of dates, and names, and places. there was nothing. fox connor said i want you to

go over to my saddle bags, i want you to get out the two books in their, bring them over here, and he goes over and gets the books and brings them over. he says i would like for you to read those, and when we go out on an inspection, a trip two weeks from now, we will discuss it over the campfire. well, anybody who has been in the military knows a senior person said i would like for you to read this, you are going to memorize every word, believe me. well, two weeks later they go out again. and he says what did you think of the memoirs? he says, general connor, i loved them. all of the problems he had, we have today. and i was able to read in his memoirs how he worked through the solutions on these various

problems. and it is so helpful, it gave me great insight. fox connor says like, i want you to go over to my subtle bags and pull out the book in there. he comes back, memoirs by john brown gordon of the confederate army who went from buck private to lieutenant general, and was a big color for reunification at the end of the civil war. he said i would like for you to read his memoirs and tell me what you think in two weeks. and that is how eisenhower became a connoisseur of history. so, when world war ii starts, and he has made supreme allied commander for the european african theater of operations, he tells general marshall, i would like to set up a history program to turn out a series of books, the official records of

the war of the rebellion. general marshall knew exactly what he was talking about, because marshall was a connoisseur of history, having gone to bmi, and graduating from bmi, and his favorite book was on the civil war. so he knew exactly where eisenhower was coming from, and eisenhower was his protegee. hook line and center, top to bottom. so he said by all means, they went to the various universities throughout america, pulled out of sending history, historians, and military historians, and put them to work. people like -- and -- who turned out the 80 volume green series known as the army green books on world war ii. the only shortcoming those green books have, it is not their fault, they didn't know

about, it couldn't help, and they do not include anything on ultra. because it was all classified. and it wasn't what loose until around, let's see, i love the archives and 79 so sometime after that, 80 or 81, 82. because the british let loose on it. otherwise it would probably still be classified. those historians, martin looming son was with his third army. so i knew him very well. he wrote anything you can find, that he wrote in the military, a history journal, any book that he did is going to be a plus. ken roberts greenfield was a+, forest did the four volume memoirs of general marshall. those guys are a plus historians. but again, they did not have access to ultra. now, i can tell you every month

at the center of military history we would have a brown bag lunch. we would get an outside speaker to come in, the head of marine corps history, one time we had the german naval attaché come, just after ultra was let loose. and one of the questions that he answered was how does this new information about ultra change the german history naval history riding of world war ii? and he said it changes everything. we have to go back and rewrite everything. he said aren't you doing the same? no. we haven't gone back and inputted ultra into our official histories. which i think is a shortcoming. but then, i'm not in charge of the program. >> this has to be our last question, i will combine to

from zoom, two questions. when was the picture at the top left taken, and what role did rommel really play in the hitler plot? >> the picture at the top left of major general patton and rommel was taken and the 70s. i talked with general paton once on the telephone. professionally, courteous, very brusque. you would not enjoy having a lunch with that person. i never got to meet rommel. but he had 1 million dollar personality from what i understand. rommel's role in the hitler

plot, to kill hitler, i mentioned the plot -- now of course, never having been interrogated with the gestapo, and never having been a married man in not see germany where they would never think twice about going after your family, you have to be very careful how you think people should react in that situation. the fact that rommel knew that something was going on, probably so, yes. he may have heard rumors, rumblings, has been approached once or twice, and what are the approaching me about?

and secretive meetings are going on. it is overplayed a little bit in the 1951 movie, the desert fox. but then again, if you take a look at a picture of the dedication of the rommel -- in the late 50s, early 60s, and rommel is standing on the left of the photo, and next to her is -- the look she is giving him would have buried him 20 feet down. [laughs] a picture says 1000 words. i think that he knew about it, but like it was said in the movie the desert fox, he says he was asked to participate actively in the plot, he said i am 70 years old, i am too old

to change. boutillier friends i wish them well. perhaps that was a long rommel 's line. remember again, and again and again. he was not a nazi. south germans think, and have a completely different cultural mindset then north germans, for the prussian class. i can tell you that when i went back to visit germany after i graduated, one of the people that my parents had befriended significantly, and lived next to us, specifically took me one day on a trip up in the alps. and i can still recall walking down this mountain path to a beautiful wooden chalet, and

bill, and coming out of it was a guy that looked like central casting, tall, muscular, dark haired, handsome outdoor futures. and he turned to me and said this was the reason for the trip, by the way, he said kim, these are [inaudible] in africa. he said this man was an ngo with rommel in the african court. they still had that much pride in rommel as a man in serving with him, and under him. and the nazis, lied, cheated, and took over. they had a secret police system, and it is very hard -- especially if you have a family to protect.

>> all right thank you. >> thank you. [applause] >> american history tv, saturdays on c-span two, exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 12:30 pm eastern, on the presidency, mark tavern, author and collections director of the george washington memorial talks about george washington's involvement with free masonry and its influence on his life and work from his book, it is irving brother. and at 4:45 pm eastern, cast members of the world war ii mini series, band of brothers reflect on the historical and cultural significance of the show two decades after it aired. exploring the american story, watch american history tv saturdays on c-span two, and find a full schedule on your program guide, or watch online anytime at c-span dot org slash history.