well today we have a fascinating

book. i think you'll enjoy jeffrey frank. is a former senior editor at the new yorker and jeopardy editor of the washington post's outlook section. currently contributed to the new yorker and has written for a washington post the wall street journal of guardian book forum vogue and other publications. is the author of i can dig

portrait of strange political marriage? and has written for novels among them the washington trilogy. and his co-author with diana krone frank of a translation of hans christian andersen stories that won the 2014 hand christian andersen cries. i was latest book. trials of harry truman showing you here the extraordinary presidency of an ordinary man 1945 to 1953 simon issues to publication 528 pages illustrated and is 32 dollars and fifty cents. you will get a book plate until authors start coming around again into our studio. you will get a bookplate that's signed if you order a book from us, and you'll get one of these special booklets that are are ourselves alone. i love the dust jacket just the

it's but i want to ask did the beatles steal this image? it's a wonderful. it's a wonderful picture. it's a little bit of a cheap because it was taken after he was president, but it was but there he is walking is in independence square and down to in downtown independence when and and that's that's the that's the way that's the way he appeared if you were lucky enough to have a site he wasn't out all the time people tourists would have loved to have seen more of him, but he wasn't gonna go out and walk around for them. we were speaking before our show and that we noticed the period after the yes, which we never thought was there. but you tell us that. he had done that once and the truman library things. this is correct. well, i asked them i said there's been can we settle this once and for all or at least sell it temporarily? they said no, there's just a lot of evidence that that the yes the first place that children actually signed his name with.

yes. sometimes his name would all get scrunched together and you couldn't see but but i think it's the preponderance of the evidence as that the esplan he actually does not stand for any particular name, but who would go to to to grandparents? and but that's but that's but they were real people and so so s and the s without appearing would have just look completely the odd so that's why i think truly sorry putting it in so that's all i can say. but anyway, i go along with the archivists and independence and i found this jeff excellent read really was especially with all the quotes that help the narrative move along. so i enjoyed reading from things that behind the scenes when i was a child, so it's kind of interesting to have delved into this now. i wanted to ask you there are many many books on harry truman. yeah many no david mcculloch's especially what brought you to

this book why truman now, and how does this book differ from? previous books on harry truman. well at dana mccullo's book was a biography of true and this is a biography of a presidency. so in that sense, it's a more limited more limited book even though i do have a long prologue which brings him brings him brings him to the to the farm to world war one to the pendergast machine and so on but it's but and i think it's it's also i realized more and more as i thought about it. well two things one that i had finished this on eisenhower and nixon. i thought that and i was already and i found truman kept. showing up he was so in a sense truman was a natural prequel to the to the icon -- and also the i just thought everything our entire world came from that period and it was and i didn't realize it until i started getting into it. it was seven years this i i had cold feet more than once. this was just everything happened then everything happened. i mean the two wars ended the

atom bomb was dropped for the first and i hope the last time ever nato was formed the civil right truman started began pushing for civil rights, even though he was not a great he was not a great job supporter of he was brought up in a segregation to slip it out a segregation is environment, but he did it anyway and everything. um everything we have today this and they say the alliance the and and the the sort of shape of american politics was sort of formed then too. we have the real the party. that doesn't doesn't anymore was but but you can see the you can sort of see the the new republican part of the goldwater party formed then after the 1948 convinced 48 election when the when when the south walked. and i know the democratic party and the republican party of his day. neither of them are the same today. no. no, so things have changed. what was his education you write

that there were gaps. and where did those gaps reveal themselves were the consequences from that as his life went on. well, he was he really was a he really was an auto detect and ordered auto did act and he but he but he read and read and read that was really read history. he didn't always read it. the way we would read it, but he read it, but he read it. he read it with a extraordinary interest and i i found i found one letter what right in the middle of the korean war. he was suddenly he was suddenly discussing a sort of ancient battling greased. he just couldn't stop so he was so he was definitely someone he was and he was deeply engaged by the presidency. other former presidents sort of fascinated him and he would he would he would actually in his diary. he would write about it. i hear the ghost of of andrew johnson walking through the white house or this or that and he was and it was very very moving. he felt that he was part of this and he also felt that he also felt that he was in a way up separate separate from this.

he also he would say that i i try to always remember that i'm harry truman and that there's the president and the second and the person sitting in his chair could be the president and so on he was separate himself from the office. he had real reverence for the office. you you just said something before about southern. qualities imbued in him we of course here at the abraham lincoln book shop studied the civil war. yeah, but truman's people lived through the confederacy and the war what southern thoughts that were imbued in truman when he was a kid of kansas nebraska troubles still resonated in his household going up. how did he get around there? well, he didn't i mean and i think that i think that he, you know on the farm and grandview was 40 miles from from lawrence kansas where they were quantrill had that massacre and he

basically up in a house of confederate sympathies. he had confederate sympathies. but he but he he evolved as we would say today and he never he actually and he never he never he never evolved to the point where he wanted social equality with blacks and whites, but he but he wanted fairness. he wanted fairness between black and he wanted he wanted he wanted a fairness the law. he was deeply moved by the by the brutality by the lynchings in the south and by and and by a particular case where a gi coming back from the war was blinded intentionally blinded by a sheriff in south carolina, and that that got to him so and and so by 1947 despite the spice that complaints actually of one of his sisters who said who said harry will never do this sort of thing. he actually came out very strongly for some for what was then a real a real change in in civil rights? he's interstate people. state travel and and he and he

actually appeared on the stage with owner roosevelt walter white the head of the double and naacp and hugo black and and this was a real step forward for him and then he actually commissioned a panel on civil rights. and so it was it was something for someone his background. he never got over his his attitudes. he never he never liked the idea of interracial marriage. he couldn't stand that but he but he wanted he understood he had a certain duty to history and he tried to do the right thing and he really wanted to do he wanted everyone to have an equal chance. that was that was real. there were of course. i was going to ask this later on but since you brought it up the minorities, how how often did he really interact with minorities? i'm thinking of two that really feature in your book one, of course our african americans you just spoken about that and how about the jewish population? he had a a partner who was jewish and that certainly interceded in certain areas when

he was president, but did he have a life with minorities at all? well, well, he actually that he got to know catholic story the first world war and you know, i was he actually he actually almost joined the ku klux klan long before when he found out they didn't they didn't want to help catholics. he want to know no part of it. he had you he had lots of jewish friends. i found that was interesting thing. i don't have to use whether you spotted it. it was in the prologue and i i never cracked it down, but it was a story in the kansas city star. i guess right after he was elected to something maybe the judgeship and they said he would go to pass over in the independence where the jewish friend and this is this was i didn't know there already jewish people in independence and and he was so that was one of truman's friend and and his friendship with with eddie jackson was completely real he had no social interaction with blacks. yeah, i can see. none, he actually with his and his few he was he felt he felt friendly toward walter white.

that's for sure and he felt extremely angry about adam clayton powell. because adequate and powell had called had referred to his best germanist the last lady not the first lady because because of something she had done. yeah, tell us about his character. he certainly was a direct person and usually honest i know that with abraham lincoln wore lamin one of his colleagues and private protector said that he could lincoln could stretch the truth when necessary. what about truman? what was his character like truman? certainly? no truman could stretch the truth, too. he would remember things that never happened. i i was fascinated to find in one of his late books. he would just he carefully described a conversation he had with roosevelt discussing just discussing history. he never roosevelt had never actually never had would have a conversation like that. they had one meeting together a lunch in august of in august of

1944 before the election. he would he would show up with the white house, but but would sort of wanted this to happen. he wrote about it as if it had happened to give i mean to i will say that it was many years later that he wrote about it, but he really wanted so that really meant a lot he would definitely stretch the truth he would all so inflate himself there. early, it was an early meeting with molotov. who was the foreign minister for this for the soviet union, and this was very soon after he became after roosevelt's death and he referred to a conversation. it was not a pleasant conversation, but truman said i was i gave my right left to the john put him down and and that that never happened one of his ace said true. we did have this capacity to sort of inflate his his his what what he said and did in private and he could stretch the truth someone too, but he was but deep down he was an honorable man. and that's the thing about that. that's why you that's why you that's why you end up like that's why i ended up liking him. he is character about being so

direct that that get in conflicts with others because of that they couldn't see past that. it's sure i mean he he was also but it also it also helped him it helped him with the voters sometimes and so on and he and of course, of course his directness his temper could also got get him in trouble. i was i i when i was i was at the washington post when paul hume was still alive, and i never asked him about that famous letter that truman said to him, so i was speaking about another example of directness. he was he certainly was he and again he would he would inflate himself and that there's no question in in the potsdam conference after the war when he met with with churchill and the stalin in in potsdam and he would in his diary he would and his letters he would say i told sal and this and i would tell him where to get off and he got off. well if you look at the transcripts of the other of the potsdam conference, which are not perfect, but there's not a hint of any of any of that and and in fact, he was always full of nice things about stalin

uncle joe. he always thought the stalin was was being run by this by this was serious politburo if stella was a and sort of helpless helpless, but before before their power, how did how did churchill and stalin treat him? i mean he was new to things. when he had to meet them at the beginning of his presidency and near the end of the war wasn't done yet, but so what how do they treat them? well, i think actually is it i think churchill got really mistreated by roosevelt and stalin in yalta. that was our work. they treated proven with greatness with great deference. he was the after all he was the president of these others wealthy powerful emerging i mean emergingly powerful instead of words that'll work a powerful nation, and it was something to really truman. i think churchill churchill really really found on truman for the future of england england with the united kingdom was dead broke and he actually said at one point, you know, we're going to need your help. it's i say i say it almost sounds like a senator from a

state hit by a tornado asking for that asking asking for national emergency and stalin stalin. it's tough stalin. basically, i don't think stalin much liked it or had a great deal of respect for him, but he didn't he wouldn't become impatient with him particularly particularly during the prosper during the pot. that was the only time they ever met and he definitely got angry with him from afar because of after the his confrontation with his foreign minister malikov, and also he got very upset with truman understandably so in truman invited churchill to come to the states and and sat on the stage and affordable basically attack, russia, but job, but they were very but they were differential to them. they understood that the world had changed. and and they also understood that that that america had for a while america was the was the um, it was was the power america was the only nation that had an atomic bomb and that counted it for a lot. yeah. um, we you had a wonderful photograph in your book of

lincoln in a car touring berlin. yeah reminded me very much of abraham lincoln. who toured richmond right after the war so well, the war was still going on but in he went there and beginning of late and the march beginning vapor april 4th to be exact. alright so i can only think of them watching that what were truman's thoughts on this visit to berlin. did he change anything? did it anger him? how did you feel? no, it's interesting. i was always kept hoping that he would say something really interested. he said it just shows when people it this kind of tragedy. he wasn't very interesting on the subject. he didn't seem terribly moved by what he'd seen either others were coming. germany. berlin was a was a was basically rubble and people were you can see this was some amazing footage from that period you can just watch people sort of lining up and passing food and water and bricks and so on and and i

and churchill churchill actually rather enjoyed it i think as after having wedding been through sure i don't think and so it wasn't ever you can't i couldn't compare it to lincoln's visit to richmond first place lincoln was visiting the they were his countrymen still and he was that he was their president these this was the enemy that really hated enemy and and they had and so i think so. i think truman just said, well, you know, this is what this what happens if you overstep and as he thought they had in a bit he meet did he go through any of the camps at the time? no, no never i isaac howard. did eisenhower did the famous quote eisenhower came out this first time in turn to said do you hate them now talking about the germans right now? exactly. yeah, he wouldn't. yeah, i'm sorry. no i'm saying he wouldn't shake the hand of of the man who came this just bring me the peace treaty or he just he found a way to avoid that. country this you're talking about is character.

what about his humor? i have a letter of his in our stock right now that does to roger tubby a friend of his and this is in 53 and and i must want to read this kind of quickly. i appreciate it very much. your first editorial which was not enclosed you instructed me to read it, but i didn't and i don't seem to have had an opportunity. and then he says on. because tubby was taking over the adirondack daily enterprise and he says in an autographed post-grip. be sure to pay a lot of attention to local situation parties weddings funerals valedictorians parent teaches associations. nice of columbus masons be personal and accurate and leave politics to national issues roger. this is an ignoramus talking to an expert. what was his humor like it comes through in this certainly?

i think his fuel was all it was there. it was real he would he was great. it's a self. it's sort of delves self-deprecating himself, and he i think was one place where he talks about the the sort of the people a short turning out of to see the president when he comes to town is oh everyone's coming out to see the cardiff the cardiff giant when he shows up he sort of he sort of made fun of himself at this and the and and the idea the idea people going out to see a great man. so he had a great sense of humor and it came through all the time some of his and even and even unintentionally i i love that there were these two very powerful colleges joe alsop and stewart. i'll stop and for them as a soft sisters. and that's a very funny and here it was almost inadvertent, but he was he didn't like them, but still it's a great coinage and i thought he had he had that talent and here that you get to the presidency, which is your book basically the theme of it. tell us how he came up through

the pendergrass machine and tom pendergrass and of course he got into the senate harshly because of them, but then seemed to be able to wean himself away from that the second term. how did he do that? how did he blossom in the senate? and was there anything you see there that from undergrass time to the senate that for shadow that he could be who became in the presidency? well, he yeah, i mean he was he was loyal to to the pendergast after he got after he won this his senate seat. he had a he put a picture of tom pettegast on the wall. and and he was that's that he'll he owed a lot of people for his first for his first sentencing. he owed a lot of a lot of people found votes where they might not have been but he but he i think his real and when he came to town he was he was really looking as a provincial in debt to the machine, but i think you know, i think his real. breakthrough his real he became a real senator in this in his second term, which he just

squeaked by again. and that was when he that was when when he started the children committee, which was basically to look at waste and fraud in in the defense and that was before the war and then he kept up during the war too and and it was it saved millions of dollars and it was and it was a it was the real thing and he and he got he cover of time magazine as and he was so this this this truman committee was really something and that sort of made him a network much more of a national figure and that's and then he became a real a real senator doing, you know trying to trying to do trying to do real legislation passed and that was something that the first time you didn't see so much the first term he was he had a great time. he had a great time when he was vice president. he had three months of of parties and yeah going, you know going why? yes having opera singers sit on the piano while he played and so on. that was no that was that was great being a senator was also it was also fun for three months and then suddenly sudden suddenly is sorry to clean. sorry for the cliche the roof fell in on him.

yeah. well, he was kind of schizophrenic about regarding himself when he became president and the office he held. he had to keep reminding himself as you were right that he was president when reacting to events. did he find it difficult to keep his personal feelings from intruding in either policy or when dealing with individuals? you have to remember? oh, yes. i'm president. i can't just go off on on people. yeah. i'm not sure. i mean, i think he i think he was again. i think he was previous pretty direct. i don't know. i don't know really know where his personal is personal feeling would come in. the only case i could think of was the big case was the record recognition of israel. and that was that was that's fascinates me. i i don't think because i do i don't i do think it was it was personal. i do think it was person. i do think that any jacobson had a role margaret truman. his daughter said that that's nonsense, but it's not nonsense for all i can for all i can see he visited truman fairly frequently. he went and he visited true and

key west which is not which was which was something that people outsiders and lobbyists and someone wouldn't do so and and he really liked him and i think and i think he was very effective personally by the by the by the sight of the refugees in europe after the war. so that was that was something that was his that was personal. that was real and i think that that was and he that was the only time where he where he went against advice of dean atchison. who basically was his chief and only advisor for the second term and and general marshall who was who was in who was enormously influential who truly almost i would almost say i almost say had a man crush on george marshall and and both they both came they both were against this early recognition of israel. so that's what i'm feelings took over. you've studied both eisenhower and truman and they came to the presidency from different angles. what are the difficulties?

of becoming commander-in-chief of politician becoming commander in chief. versus a military man having to become a presidential politician. how do the two of them cope with those differing roles historical roles that they themselves have. forgive me a bit of eisenhower discussion now because i just i i feel like i feel as though i got to know him and i think i think for eisenhower it was almost a step down. he had made a really big decisions. the operation overlord was a really big decision with the lives of i don't know how many americans i mean how many how many allied troops? we're at risk he after he after the presidency. he wanted to be called general general not fred, not mr. president. he was still the politician. he had to be one. yeah, and he was and he was also and he was we were really lucky to have him at that time. i mean, i'm thinking of the wars we did not get into because of eisen hours. i was always president and so i'm particularly in the china.

and so on truman how to learn how to learn how to do it and he and he went very well on instinct and he learned and he and he and he didn't always have great advice and he had some really strange capital choices in his first term having having henry wallace a secretary of commerce was a strange choice of henry wallace was a rival for the present for the presidential nomination and he'd been the vice president under roosevelt and suddenly anyway, he was proven secretary of commerce. it was not a happy relationship and then and then james francis burns jimmy burns. that was also that was desperately jealous of truman, i think because children because roosevelt had picked truman over him as for vice president and every time i think burns looked at him because that could have been that could be me president burns, but of course it was never going to happen. how about his commander-in-chief? he had? no, i mean he has some military experiences right war one, but in all of a sudden he was commander in chief. it's like right like lincoln

again is a private in the black hawk war and that was it until he was commander in chief. yeah, that's already wrote tactics and all of that. although things worked much closer. but how did he how did he act as commander in chief? and well, he actually if you think about it though, all he had to do with sort of close down two wars the war in europe was basically over when he was when roosevelt died and the war in japan he had to make one big decision as commander in chief, but it wasn't much of a decision. it was made for him. it was going to happen. this was the bomb was you know, the the the interim committee had said couldn't they couldn't no one was against using the thing. they probably a committee had picked. well, they pick kyoto was the first choice. so in a sense, but but truman but true and basically said yeah, we're gonna go ahead what he couldn't resist the the the and plus years and years of planning and he was persuaded that you know that a half million lives would be saved by using the bomb. so it really wasn't it really was not a decision and he just do it and then and in fact, i'm

not even sure that he he even gave the decision for me for the nagasaki bomb. and then and then that was over his biggest role as commander in chief of korea and that was that was that was a big deal because of that i did want to show since i have it here over my shoulder the famous chicago newspaper the tribune made this mistake dewey defeats truman. it's interesting that it was put together very quickly in the early morning hours here in chicago and harry tribble a there are stringer in washington called them and said no, it ain't true don't do it, but they'd already gotten this out to the burbs and in some michigan the outer suburbs got these early newspapers and that's why chicago didn't get this there have been a newspaper employee strike. so some of this is upside down they put it together so quickly the editors came down there and they put it together and did it

wrong in some instances. i once had one these years ago, wish i had it back. had a couple of them were truman has signed the newspaper, but one of them i someone you both. do we and truman and so he had it went to truman and truman signed it. this a mistake harry truman. and then dewey the only one he signed. he said it sure was thomas doing but but truman did sign it was in missouri when this when he got one of these papers and he signed this the photographs this came from a newspaper itself, and he signed many of these really briefly. how come do we didn't treat defeat truman? oh, see what because drew got more votes. okay, that's easy enough. you know, really it really was it wasn't even close. that was the interesting thing about it. it wasn't even close truman. i mean the truman got triple

one. he lost congress in 46 terrible terrible defeat of almost a vote of confidence or dope a vote of no confidence and in 1948. he got the senate in-house track along with winning the presidency. it was it was it was it was a great a great victory for him and and that paper is really that's a beautiful copy you have i the copy of the truman libraries sort of more sort of beat up than that one is and they're very very few of them because as you said they were they just they were just out to the suburbs and and i was just a very early edition. so right there's nothing. yeah, and you know, they they're gonna be fewer as time goes on because the hey newspapers are acidic i know paper and they're just gonna continue to eat out from the inside. it's going to take a while, but it's going to be done. you can get letters and newspapers. i should say from george washington's era or abraham lincoln's here and they're in perfect condition because they're rack and they're just in perfect condition.

so these are going to they need to be de acidified if you're going to keep them. but since we're talking about newspapers, let's talk about the press. what was his relationship with the press both before the presidency and especially during it with news conferences and perhaps after what was his i did what was his relationship with the press going? it was really i love the subject. so i'm gonna stop me if i go on too long. he had he basically had a press comments almost every week and he and he i think he kind of enjoyed it. he enjoyed reporters. he was friendly with some of them and and any and they gave him a tough time, but he was but he but he they were they knew they recognized. socially and who they work? he didn't much care for the colonists. he had i mean someone like as i say he mentioned he called he also brothers the soft sisters and and thought water lipton and he just couldn't stand what would let me sort of what a living turned at the very unwater living began to find some virtues and truman, but he thought he was just a medium

mediocrity, but but the average reporters who who maybe hadn't gone to college who basically we're working for not not much money who were slaving every day and so on truman like them and they liked him and it showed and he never did any didn't duck. he didn't duck them. he didn't go i mean the idea that the idea that of not he actually said it his last press conference. he said nothing nothing is more more valuable that i said the value that we have being able to ask a president directly face to face a question is a very amazing thing we have in this country, he and he and he and he's always and he kept he cut that going he did not care for the owners. he didn't care for the first he didn't care for the he didn't care for roy. how are the scripts howard people he didn't care for the essay. he didn't care for the colonists who were often, but they were often from a different social class than children, and that showed the new writer you write about his last presidential year the last 10 months. certainly. he can't became kind of shaky.

and wasn't exactly himself and what way how did it affect his decisions and did it affect him his relationship with the press as well. i'm not sure it affected him, but you could yeah those one press conference about quote toward the end. he's very shaky. he doesn't seem to he doesn't seem to even know something he he was recalling something he'd given he'd given stalin and up ultimately happened. he hadn't given style and an ultimatum and he was and he was good. he got sick. he had a terrible. he had a terrible flu and i think in the summer in the summer of 52, and then he had the steel strike which was which didn't have to happen. it was it didn't it the the steel he sees the he sees the the steel factories and and basically and and the supreme court basically said no and these are this is a supreme court of his appointees and roosevelt's appointees. one justice compared the he said described this the sort of thing that george that george the fifth would do. and so he was so he had a very shaky last tournament and in korea wasn't going well either

it was it was going better than it's it's worst time. the worst time in korea was the fall of the fall of winter 1950 when it looked at when it looked when it looked as if it could it could all go it could all go bad. that's that's what the chinese came into it despite mornings. you mentioned that in here how he didn't travel to he did certainly travel to to be with macarthur. yeah, and that was very consequential. i presume not only to their relationship and politics but afterward but also to the war, how did that go? i'm not sure that it really well. i'm not sure. i'm not know why that's that. he actually traveled. he actually traveled by propeller plane to wake island and back and spent and spent maybe. four or five hours there and maybe an hour most would move with the car. there was a meeting and all hands meeting and then a couple of rides and nothing was accomplished. there was a truman had an election coming up which this

this didn't the 4811 that didn't help him. um, he i'm not sure what it accomplished, but i thought truman just truman said it's important for me to beat my general and talk talk to him, but nothing changed and then afterward he felt that he did completely betrayed by the carter because really go into korea and see it. no, no and you do kind of mention that if he had gone you into me and my perhaps if he has seen it and how close china is. yeah, perhaps he would have not not go both feet into that war. he might have they met the thing is to also important to remember that when they met in wake island. it was just a month after macarthur's great victory then sean and he had it wasn't it wasn't spectacular victory. he was it was a landing of it and he basically the war was actually one could have been one and and then and then the concert decided that we he was going to he was going to conquer all of korea and and that that was then disaster followed, but

it was he in all kinds of ways. it was a war that i keep i completely obsessed by the war i when i went over there. i'm not good at looking at maps. so one of the valuable things for me was flying over the place and seeing this country that you was mountains. it was a terrible place to find a war. and and before it was all over people people forget earned them loses if they call it the forgotten words not forgotten by the people who are there and they're fewer than now 37,000 americans were killed in the korean war. i don't know how countless numbers of koreans probably a million chinese and when it was all over nothing had changed except that the koreans had a slight advantage they got one city more than they had when they started and and that was so it was it was a terrible terrible. terrible terrible war and it didn't up and that was and and the and in what they what he met mccarthur macarthur assured him that the chinese were not going to come in. and he said it would be would be a big slaughter if they did. well, it was a slaughter. all right. and that almost ended the war in

the wrong way. the korean memorial is wonderful in washington and i i think every american should go to understand the korean war just from that memorial. i agree affecting an emotional. i agree. i'm going to the to the war museum and soul. korea is also you realize this is this was this was in our war. this was their war too right? we before was all over there was basically nothing left in north korea every village every town burned on the cross is orders and south korea the second just extraordinary devastation. and so and we think it was so far away. we just don't we don't realize that what terrible terrible ward was and there again south korean where the south koreans now happy that we were there. i think i think i i think they're happy that i think they're happy now and i think that's what i mean. yeah, but i think and i say you could in some way you could you could call. well, what's the problem with having this more? because south korea is great. they're making holidays.

and so and and samsungs but the but we've also but but there could have been south korea without i think the war i see i think the work of engines in september of 1950 it and that was so many great stories in this book so many terrific quotes as i mentioned the beginning the quotes just drive the narrative drives the reading one that was kind of interesting. i had not know about about korea and about nukes as well. i never heard the story was a short just a little short paragraph in your book, but hit me that al gore senior, you know, al gore jr. but al gore senior proposed an atomic death belt. yeah in between south and north korea the truman know that idea and he express any thoughts about that. i don't i don't i don't hear any thoughts. there were lyndon johnson senator johnson wanted one of the bomb with nukes too. there was a lot of there a lot of war like, okay that hasn't changed much as it is.

it's easier to be your senator and propose a war policy than actually have to make a decision. but no, it's really true. human thought that the cold war though was one of his legacies. that correct. he that his part in it helped set the state for what eventually occurred? i think he i think buddy. i think he considered the the truman doctrine is which basically stopped the expansion of soviet russia into well. i mean, they they never got into western europe for example, and and so i think i think you considers that i think he's i think he considers his legacy nato which was which has been a huge success. i think as you know when it began to expect expand 25 years ago george kennan, who was who was the author of the father of the containment father was the most dangerous and and reckless thing we've foreign policy since the war but that's that's another story. he and truman but truman but

true and was not part of that true and and then marshall plan was a great great achievement. it was i mean it was again it wasn't truman's idea, but he certainly but he got out of the way let it happen and he also was smart enough to let it be called the marshall plan this came in. this is after the republicans had take it over the house and send it for the first time since 1928. you think that acheson and marshall? led truman more than truman let them that he knew these men were around him and he thought that they had ideas that he should follow. i'm part of it that way, but she i don't think you would have ever used the word they led him, but he listened to them and he basically i can't think of anything where they apart from the recognition of israel where they where he disagreed with them and he and they and they did i think this good question that he guided him and helped to make decisions. you you as a as a historian looking back. yeah, you think that they did lead him. oh, yeah, i mean sure the

absolutely did and and in that sense and and i and and i think the truman truman basically, yeah truman. oh, they led it because i think they knew that he would listen to them. so whatever and in that sense, they they let him but they left but i think they were they were they realized. he was the president so they had to let him they had to let him. lead but they push them in the right direction george and george kennedy once said that it was truman in effect only had one advisor and that was denacherson. and um, i have behind me a set of his memoirs. yeah truman that he wrote after the war of after the presidency, of course the two volumes he and herbert hoover live long lives and they were happy to sign everything that was put before them. yeah, and so these books are not rare to find inscribed to people he was happy to do it same with hoover as i mentioned. how was his writing in this?

is it all his writing? did he? what was he saying about those who were? enemies or friends before that he make any new enemies through these this diary. i think he reawaken some old some old old enemies you see the writing is not very good and a lot of help the parts where i think the real truman comes through was whatever he whatever he would let loose on henry wallace. or james birds, so he who he never sort of got over and then eisenhower would he let eisenhower have it in when it basically from the from the 52 campaign when i was now a last stevenson? and truman truman and truman who had always they'd always had a pretty well actually a very respectful relationship and then then it all changed truman. i didn't truman was partially more with deeply offended when when eisenhower didn't come to the defense of general marshall when mccarthy attacked him. and then when he code that he

would call marshall. i forget the words he used but but the the the essence was morally morally bankrupt and they and they so after that there was no forgiveness possible and and he really let marsh truman have it. i mean as our have it in the memoirs and and and and actually so i actually didn't have it too. but which is a way and and eisenhower was i said, i wasn't they they were not fond of each other. that's it by that time. they it was a sort of a reconciliation not never a real one after that and so on. but anyway, that's the place that's what truman's real voice i think comes through where he's where he's sort of where you sort of letting letting you know how he feels about these people who we always say was angry with well, that's kind of nice to to read just for that. but use right that well, he demonstrated an impressive and talent for self-invention. so maybe elaborate on both those points? well, i mean, i think that's the

self invention is the idea that he was this that he was this sort of barefoot boy from missouri and who who just took over and and and and and became and they gave the sort of great commander that they really was it was it wasn't quite like that and he had he did have a lot of a lot of help and and and i think he acknowledged that i so what was the other thing you see well, how how he his expectations that were were in there as well? yeah, i mean, i think it sounds the ground now. okay, so i think that he he just it was he was when he wrote that what he wrote he's been was he was a much more confident person than he was when he went out when roosevelt died, so he was able to sort of rewrite history. i did this i did that i decided this and then so it's funny. we was inward looking as well. not really he that wasn't true and that wasn't true in strength. yeah, but he was but he was he

was outward looking and he was and he could he could since he was since he was the author since it was his history. he can describe himself as making big decisions is making good decisions is changing the world and that's how emmy and he could be and since and since and he could have this confidence. he was already. his his history's view of him had not. it was already beginning to change by the time these books were published in 55 and so on and he was he was a far more confident about himself and his role in history than he was when he left office. well, what about the legacy how biographers certainly in the beginning and for a long time didn't think that there was greatness in him? how did is legacy change at that last year for instance in the shakiness of that impinge upon biographers immediately and but how did that legacy change till today? we have a different field for him. yeah, dan. i think that's true. i think i do think though that almost right away there were some some people were beginning to say some historians were even

beginning to say that that he's bigger than we think he is and so on and and he he definitely he grew he grew he is time went on and he grew up the estimation of more and more people. um, i think i think david mccullough's book was was very important and sort of saying well, let's let's give him credit for for this for this that the other but i think people were already recognized. i mean, how did you deny that that the marshall plan nato and and so on where these were these were all these were all programs that that were that were his legacy and and the and the fact that they're not been they're not been a major war korea. is this korea is the one big blot? to me on that on his presidency at the end because it didn't have to happen not in that way. i think we had a respond. we had a respond to the north korean attack on south korea that for we couldn't let the stand just we couldn't let them walk over the south and also it was a real test for tribute of the united nations, which he which he had a lot of was she put a lot of value in?

but it was but it was not a but it was not it was not a great moment in his presidency. you had alluded to joseph mccarthy and atchison being attacked by him, i as a child i come home from in mid grade school age six seven eight and they were on the tv and i'd watch i didn't know what i was watching but i saw drama certainly one of my cousins actually was paul before the mccartney. really? yeah, but oh, what did truman that he was he outspoken at all? this is after his presidency, of course, but was he outspoken at all about mccarthy and what was going on? oh, yeah. i'm sorry. yes. i mean mccarthy got sort of sort of one more powerful later on but no he was definitely truman truman. let mccarthy have it. i mean mccarthy gave his famous first speech and in wheeling in 1950 and truman truman actually

was one press conference when truman said that mccarthy mccarthy is the he's the best friend the kremlin has and then he actually those were the days when when presidents could take it back. there was they had to get you had to get permission to be quoted directly and they went to charlie ross his press secretary. he said can we use that in truman modified it somewhere but he was he heated because he despise the car because he because they just hadn't really begun become the powerful person. he was he become the destructive person that he was he his attack on on general marshall was was extraordinary. in fact, in fact, i i a quote some of it in the book and it's just people just people just people just people remember just a couple of lines, but it was pretty insane. i mean some of the things he said, i mean the idea that marshall is it the root of of everything lost china they yeah, they crazy and crazy and i don't know whether macarthy mccarthy was mccarthy mccarthy is a they're in a number of books about he and i think richard

revere said he wrote the lion that he he saw anti-comedism as a you know, as a sort of a great oil and it came up a gusher he went for it, but i think but after a while i don't i to he began to sort of really believe this stuff. he was very popular with journalists because he was great copy. but then but but he but then it became more serious. he was he was he was the he became the arch villain of her block cartoons and he became and then and then he sort of and then he began to chart the path to his own destruction under eisenhower. i brought up herbert hoover truman certainly had an effect on herbert hoover by bringing him to the old oval office and over. i it's known he was given some help to it was asked by truman to help in europe something he had done before. yeah as well in his -- to do

that and hoover went out of the overall office and cry. he was driven was very generous that way i mean and i i don't know the whole story between the the the bad feelings between hoover and roosevelt and i mean, i know they they never spoke. i don't think they even go to the inauguration together, but that was but true very true was very generous and really and really really brought him into thinking and and two for appreciated it whoever came to the dedication of the true blood library and in 1556, and and i think the truman would have and i truman had had fallen down and he would have so he couldn't go to he couldn't go to hoover's funeral, but he would have gone if you could for um you i think you mentioned that. at the end is interesting as this book is by the way. that the truman presidency is somewhat uninspiring. is there anything inspiring that we should take away from his presidency? is there a lasting effect of his

presidency that i think what i think what i've been to say was true with himself was not inspiring. he was not he was not an inspiring personality. he was he was almost recessive as a personality he would. if you watch him, it's painful to watch him to watch him for example do announcing the announcing the piece in the surrender of the of germany. it's painful when after the bomb was dropped he was actually on the ship coming back from from potsdam, but he but there was a statement that that his that that his press secretary read in washington, but then he videoed something of himself and it's it's it's it's pathetic. i mean he just see him at these. he's almost he's reading by wrote and he seems to be hardly hardly there and even as a campaigner unless he was on his own unless he was making it up and sort of and wish you could be great fun and sometimes make it up. someone said it sounded like someone reading from the hindustanity. i mean, it was not not good. so he was never he was never an inspiring president and he's

never so what what we what we what we remember is what he did not not how he was and in fact that's part of part of why he has grown in memory because we see we see this we see this person this post-presidential children this fun. fun quotable always always there and you're going to your traveling all over the place and he was and that was the that's the truman that we all began to remember but as president, he was not a great lead-inspiring figure and quite the contrary. you know, these are events 60 70 more years ago. yeah, but you had lunch it's interesting as an historian to be able to have a lunch with one of the characters main characters in your book and that's dean atchison. his son his son david. i mean there's yeah i'm saying his son is what i'm saying and 2018. yeah. david was 19 and the sun is a direct. ah direct line to the father.

oh, yeah, and he must have did he represent his father. do you think did he try to keep up the legacy of his or did he get into other areas and maybe some areas that we don't think are as as. fondly memory for actresses himself david i really really got to like david. he looks like his father too. by the way you could you if you saw in the crowd you say my god, there's dean anderson and he was he was wonderful. he no he was all he was completely loyal to his father. he thought that his father the most interesting thing. there are many interesting things. but one was there was a wonderful cars collection of correspondence between atlasin and truman they result there was all post-presidential and they go it's fast. i recommend everyone get a copy of it because you see now here's children letting lucid jimmy burns for example saying this guy was trying to run rough for president over my head and he calls he caught he refers to he refers to sound as that little

son of a --. it's pure truman and and and and data, that just didn't was behind it and mortgage we're going to try to stop it. welcome to and tried to stop stop. he thought it didn't show the dignity of the presidency and and it came out aftermarket died and david told me about this and i thought that was quite interesting and but david was and david was very very david. actually. it was very strict extremely. i don't distraction said never david and he was he was very loyal to his father's memory and really and it was never never any wavering that he thought that his father. he said well, let's do his father. he did admire truman and he did dedicate his book to the captain with a mighty heart, but he thought to him was too political and too too quick and too quick to i think it actually he actually wrote some place that his his mouth works faster than his mind and he did feel that about but he but he definitely is there anything we're really at the end of our time anything surprising that you came out of

this with truman, especially since you started out with eisenhower and nixon and then went back to truman. is there anything surprising that that came to you that you like to impart to us? there's one thing it's interesting guy is i feel like i got when i feel like i really got to know him. i was when i was in what i was an independent, i've done a wonderful guy who works for the department of the interior the house in grandview was being i couldn't get into it was closed and he said i'll take you took me into it. we went through we went through it and going upstairs to the back stairs and seeing we're truman lived for basically 10 years. in this i mean he they were not a poor family, but i've lived in the country and i know it's like to wake up on a cold morning and not like like they did and they won one stove and he had he shared a room with his brother vivian two beds in one room with one chamber pot under the bed. you just think about my god and this is and he there for 10 years. and you begin to say oh this is this is where he came from. this is this is this is this this is this man, and this is

and he had a lot of guts and he had a lot of strength and that's what also with what he brought to when he what he brought to to the war first world war where he was where even with spot having bad eyesight. he became he was he got promoted a captain and even though he was a mason and never, you know as he had a lot of irish catholics around and he got to anybody and they liked him and he commanded them and he was he began then you began to see where it all came from and it was it was a he was for real and that's what and that's so it didn't come out of nothing. listening to children's strength and that's what i began to see and then all the rest of it began to follow is mistakes all of it. and but but the strength was always there and the honor was always there even even when he i mean when he dissembled in many and when he made it up and i think that's what i came away from what came away. is he truman lie, does it truman library represent the man fairly now it does i think it probably like all present like all like like i think he wanted to be a happier view at first but everything he let nothing was

hidden. it's all there the library is wonderful. i was gonna say i think it's the baby the best library and the archivists were terrific too. i don't know. i mean the eisenhower labs also, it's pretty pretty wonderful and i've been to some bad the nixon i really was was a much more interesting and bifurcated place when i was out there, but the trulin library's was the first under the national archives and record administration too. it was and they and it's it's terrific terrific library, and i hope that i hope that the last president whose name i never mentioned in the book. trying to help that thank you not even in the index, but i hope that the that the national archives and records administration can take some some control of it. so there's some some historical record even though a lot of it's going to be lost in tweaking me so well, we've been talking to jeffrey frank and about his wonderful new book on the human presidency the trials of harry s truman the extraordinary presidency of an ordinary man,

1945 and 1953 and i enjoyed this because i third time i'm saying this the narrative just went along because of all the interesting people that you ferret it out around him as well and the quotes that come with it. so this is today was the day of release and we appreciate that and those of you who are watching right now can still get dave release book plate and you can if you're watching later or c-span, we'll still have book plates just like this that jeffrey had signed for us and we'll have those as well. we want to thank c-span for caring our interviews and all of you for watching us as well. if we go over our website a link and bookshop.com to be a part of all of our interviews and our artifacts shows. thank you