tv Banking CE Os Testify on Regulations and Oversight - Part 3 CSPAN November 17, 2022 4:37pm-6:25pm EST
>> thank you. >> thank you. we'll take a brief recess for members to vote on the house floor. we'll resume immediately following the votes. let me just say to all the witnesses, i appreciate your patience with that work that we're doing today. you may want to take this as a time to grab some lunch. that committee will stand in recess. thank you. [inaudible] [inaudible]
order. >> thank you so much mister chairman, can you hear me okay? >> loud and clear, yeah. >> thank you mister chairman. i want to first begin by recognizing miss frazier and city group. the conversation i am going to have will involve all of the panelists. i want to begin with her company and herself. based on our research it looks like they pay five times more interest to its depositors and the rest of the individuals sitting at the table. miss frazier, is it correct that your deposits are currently yielding 0.05% interest rate? >> we believe we have a variety of different deposit products. we believe them to be competitive and fair. >> the information i have here on your basic account package is a 0. 05 interest rate, is that correct?
>> one of our products has, that that is correct. >> for the rest of the panel, is it fair to say that my members here are accurate for the remainder -- you're paying about 0. 01% on deposits? >> that is inaccurate. >> can you please clarify then for me the figure? >> yes, our base account pays about the same as the city groups -- but basis points are so. we have many products, substantially more. it varies. i don't know of any that paid zero. >> okay, can we just clarify this across the board from left to right on the record, for the american people, tell us what your basic standard savings deposit is currently yielding in your institutions? >> mister chairman? >> i'm requesting the panel to respond. >> let's go from left to right. >> we have a variety of products that range from five basis points, to over 200 basis
points depending on the size of the departed deposit -- >> the general public accounts is what i'm talking about. the majority of your deposits. what are the yielding right now? >> general retail deposit would be at that lower end of that range. and there's also cds available, termed a positive -- >> i don't have a lot of time, can we just go across the board please? >> we are the same. five basis points at the lower and we have different products yielding more depending on several factors. >> thank you, mister diamond? >> premier seem as everyone else here. >> miss frazier? >> yes, we're in the same
range. >> mr. monahan? >> we have a range of products that cover the same range as my colleagues as well. >> mr. rogers? >> very similar. >> mr. schauf? >> i believe we're in the same range. >> thank you, so much mister chairman, as inflation is battering our public and as interest rates are rising and causing credit card interest rates to go up and general consumer -- it's across the board devastation for the american public. we have had it on the record earlier today that there is, quote, more money in their accounts, and quote, in all of these financial institutions -- in other words, there's a lot more deposits being held by these financial institutions as interest rates are rising. one of the only silver linings is that saviors are supposed to be rewarded for their savings. they're supposed to see the interest that they earn go up. you have what we have here is the fed funds rate that currently, mr. tournament, at 2. 5%, on the record, it's that 2. 5%. the institutions paying
between 0. 01% at 0. 05%. which means -- they're making between anywhere to two -- on the deposits of their customers. i want to ask across the board real quick, mister chairman. can they confirm whether or not they are going to be increasing the interest rates that they're paying to their depositors at anytime soon? >> mr. -- you hear the question? >> we would expect to continue to monitor rates and raise rates as appropriate given what is going on with the competition. >> the same. we expect them to raise them overtime. >> mr. diamond? >> we expect them to go up
soon. >> mrs. frazier? >> yes we will. >> mr. monahan? >> rates will go up in the future. >> mr. rogers? >> yes reads them. >> mr. shaw. >> yes the same. >> thank you. >> we'll time mister chairman, thank you. >> the gentleman's time has expired. the turnout recognizes the gentleman from north carolina. you're now recognized. >> thank you chair. 60 minutes on sunday, president biden tried to downplay the negative impact of a 40 year your high inflation. 8. 3% inflation isn't that bad because it hasn't specht recently. you also know, the second quarter gdp was negative for the second consecutive quarter which is the textbook definition of a recession. of course president biden is trying to deny this as well. as the leaders of financial institutions that he'll -- deal directly with american consumers every day, i want to ask you some brief
questions to gauge the financial health of the average american consumer. i'll stick with the length of time -- i'll stick with the north carolina institutions, if you would, please. mr. rogers, and mr. monahan at the bank of america. just brief answers if you would, it could be yes or no, our consumer savings decreasing? >> consumer savings are actually quite stable at this particular juncture, after having grown for quite a few months. >> mr. moynihan? >> consumer deposits are stable. >> are they using up more credit now than they were a year ago? >> consumers aren't starting to access more credit, particularly in the area of credit cards. >> mr. moynihan? >> credit card balances have balance since last year but are not back to pre-pandemic levels yet. >> when you factor in inflation, our consumers real wages down, mr. rogers?
>> if you factor in inflation for most consumers, i believe real wages would be down. >> real wages are down, thank you. mr. moynihan? >> on a one-year, basis the inflation rate exceeds the wage growth. >> has the number of consumers with access to, say, real emerged gone up or down? >> consumers currently have more in their checking account then the opportunity to have an emergency savings account, it's actually increased during the last few years. >> mr. moynihan? >> consumer deposits and their accounts are multiples of where they were pre-pandemic. >> do you think the economy will get worse before it gets better? minister moynihan? let's switch it around. mr. moynihan first. >> i said earlier that our experts have positive gdp growth this quarter and negative gdp quarter growth for the next couple quarters.
that's their base assumption, at the research team that we have. >> mr. rogers? >> we have a very similar forecast. >> thank you. we see the state of our economy is not very good, president biden's failed economic policies have made things worse for working families in north carolina and across the country. according to the federal reserve of st. louis, the personal savings rate has been declining since march of last year. it's the lowest since 2008. a recent survey said that more respondents have been in credit that than last year. the federal reserve reported that household debts exceeded trillion dollars for the first time ever in the first quarter. according to the census bureau, the median household incomes have remained stagnant or declined two years in a row. according to bank rate, 56% of americans cannot cover a 1000 dollar emergency expense with savings anymore. it reason abc
news poll found that 69% of respondents said that they think the u.s. economy is getting worse. so, bottom line, americans are buying less, earning less, saving less, while paying more for their daily lives. that's what i see in all 100 counties in north carolina. life seems to have gotten worse under president biden, and i believe it's time he admits it. thank you all for your time, i yield back. >> thank you. the gentleman from illinois, mr. casten, who's also the vice chair of the subcommittee on investor protection, entrepreneurship and capital markets is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. thank you all for a long day. we want to start with a statement that i think is obvious, but all of you do a wonderful job but i appreciate your work to minimize the risk of last year equity capital while still honoring your obligations to shareholders to
maximize return. if any of you disagree with that statement, please chime in. but i want to start, just because i want to focus on risk and return. two years ago, mr. diamond, miss fraser, mr. moynihan and mr. scharf in a banking committee, senator warner asked you all, and i believe you all essentially acknowledged, that you are using, quote, new tools and services to gauge climate risk to your portfolios. i'll put the question to all of you but i want to focus on you, mister scharf, because i think of the largest mortgage book. and the two years since, are you changing your lending, your diligence standards for properties that are exposed to climate risk? wildfires, forest fires. we've had two years to gauge those risks, have you changed your lending standards? >> congressman, it's something that we talked a lot about. we've always factored some of those risks into the properties that we've financed. so, it continues to be something that we talk about. whether or not
we have specifically changed to the magnitude of that, that i can't answer right now. >> i don't need another critical question. there's been some data suggesting that there is a disproportionate flow of those mortgages to fanny and freddie and those high-risk areas. if you don't off the top of your, had we can follow up off line. but there's been a lot of reporting on that and i'd like to see the data, because it's a concern for moving risk on to the taxpayers. >> you can certainly go back to the data and share it with you. >> okay. shifting to the return side of the question. mr. dimon, i think this is a dumb question, i'm sure you'll tell me if it is. would you support legislation that compelled you to preferentially invest in industries that were struggling to attract capital? >> i would not. >> okay. >> i assumed that would be your answer. i ask that because, over the last 12 years, the
entire oil and gas emp sector is running at a 12 times multiple. next era, tesla or, all the leading lights of the clean energy space are running at ten times that number for the most part. yet, we are seeing a lot of my colleagues suggested that we should prevent the financial sector from investing in areas that are getting high returns out of some completely bastardized theory of capitalism, whatever that means. the state financial officers foundation, a right-wing-backed group, is intentionally promoting that. they are pushing state legislation across the country and, as recently as july, west virginia's treasurer announced that he was canceling hundreds of millions of dollars in state contracts to five banks, including yours and wells fargo. i think he said that their analysis was disconnected from the facts. i think wells fargo said that you disagreed with the decision. subsequent to that, that rated homies has announced that they're no longer going to find this
group. as a few weeks ago, jp morgan and wells fargo were both funded the officers foundation. it's not listed on the website anymore. are you still providing resources to this organization, that is spreading policies that are encouraging you to invest in places that are struggling to attract capital? >> i don't know the answer, i'd have let's get back to you. a look at it if i can. >> mr. scharf, is wells fargo still supporting the state officers foundation? >> i'm not sure, but i'm glad to take a look at. it >> can either of you commit while we're here that you will not continue to fund an organization that is spreading disinformation, that is blocking the capital sector from freely allocating capital? >> i won't commit until i read something, but if that's true we will probably cancel it. >> mr. scharf? >> i agree with mr. dimon. >> as we look at their website today, the only group supporting this is groups with active agendas. what does he continue to minimize equity risk, i want to see you continue shareholder returns and i want to leave a better
planet for a kids and the ones that are parents left us. i would hope that you all work together with us on that. thank you, i yield back. >> the gentleman from indiana, mr. hollingsworth, is now recognized for five minutes. >> good afternoon, i'm excited to be here with each of you. before i get started on my questions, mr. moynahan, i want to let you know. raise your hand ruth the, she has been my team member for a couple of years now. but on monday, she becomes the bank of america team member. about which she is very excited, i hope she'll take good care of her and recognize the talent that she has shown already in our office, i'm sure she'll do the same a bank of america. >> we will do, that her father already works for us. so, we will do. that >> you should've called us. good, i appreciate the opportunity to chat about some of these issues today. what i'm really interested in is the state of the economy. mr. budd touched on this, but i want to delve deeper. we are, as of today, and a truly unprecedented pace, and winding
by quantitative easing as well as the accommodative policies of the last couple years. though the fed continues to talk about soft landing, i worry that this pace will lead to a harder landing then perhaps they are yet forecasting. but there's a couple ballots to that. one, very strong corporate balance sheets. earnings have been relatively resilient, but bound sheets are better than they've ever been in the s f p 500. secondarily, household balance sheets are better than they have ever, quite literally, been. you all touched on this a little bit, but one thing that i continue to notice is a tremendous amount of savings that households have, in excess of the savings ahead in 2019. have you begun to see households mobilizing that? or not begun to see that mobilizing that? i think this is really important to real underline economic demand going
forward. in the face of some of the extra costs that are being incurred, we're seeing them depended a savings. with all due respect to mr. budd, there's a difference between a decline and savings rate and a decline in the level of savings. so, i'm curious, maybe start with you, mister moynihan. then i'll ask mr. dimon and miss fraser but the same thing. >> consumers of bank of america have multiples of the amount of money they had pre pandemic. that amount is stable right now, it had been growing for the last year and a half, since the last stimulus and it grew, kept growing, went up in tax time, came down a little after tax time, came down a little would pay-ification and now unstable. put us on data from the institute every month so you can see. it >> understood. thank you. mr. dimon? >> consumer currently is in very good shape. high savings, jobs available, jobs going up at the lower end. household, even debt going up a little bit. so much lower than it was before. debt service ratio is lower than it's been in 50 years. even if we go into
recession -- but yet later, not now. that's the good news, which is now. the bad news is later, and it's coming. >> miss fraser? >> i think, similarly, it's always dangerous talking about averages rather than what we see across the spectrum. but stability in the deposits, still elevated levels of spending. and equally importantly, still low credit losses across the board. >> i would assume any controller cfo worth their salt has but the last couple of years looking at very low rates and extend to get their maturity ladders to ensure they don't face upcoming maturities. are you seeing, any of the three of you, and he stressed in corpus yet with higher rates? no? not even in p e, sponsor, high leverage than areas? >> not actual stress, but it spreads it way up. >> the markets not strong for those types of credits, but -- >> it's hard to transact today.
one of the things we continue to talk about up here is ensuring we are investing enough in research and development. we want to maintain the significant competitive advantage we have in developing new technologies, whether that's a research institutions across the country or in very innovative, smart companies across the country. one of the things we've noticed is that veasey finding is declining dramatically. in some estimate, says a trillion dollar gap between what we find it in the last five years of what we're likely to find in the next five years. some of that is reluctance of companies to recognize valuations today versus what they might have been even six months ago. but i wondered if you've seen an uptick in earlier stage venture backed funds seeking loans instead of equity, given some of the transactions and the values that we're seeing. versus what they were before. anyone want to comment? >> we haven't seen evidence of it yet. but it is early days. >> they generally don't borrow money, you're not going to see a lot of. that >> indeed, but i heard more
were inclined to do that rather than recognize the fitbit downs in their valuations. with that, all yield. >> the gentlewoman from massachusetts, miss pressley, who's also the vice chair of the subcommittee on consumer protection and financial institutions, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair, for holding this critical hearing and ensuring that oversight remains a priority for this committee. well we have the ceos in front of, us i want to take just a moment for the official record to center that which is most important. that is the workers. bank tellers who work day in a day out to do the transactions for the custodial staff who keep offices safe. too often i think they're lost in these hearings or, worse, used as cover up talking points. your workers deserve better and they deserve
to be respected. mr. scharf, workers that wells fargo have been advocating for a greater voice on the job for years. for the record, will you commit to neutrality in the workers organizing effort and ensure that workers who speak out to not face retaliation? this is i'm looking for a yes or no response. >> we believe that we're best having a direct relationship with them. >> it's that a yes or a no? will you commit to neutrality in the workers organizing effort, and ensure that workers who speak out do not face retaliation? it's really easy, yes or no. >> we will follow the law. >> okay, so, i'm going to reclaim my time. i was looking for a yes or no on whether or not you would commit to neutrality in the workers organizing efforts and ensure that workers who speak out to not face retaliation. after years of scandals and billions
of dollars in fines, you owe your employees accountability. if there had been a union at wells fargo, perhaps the toxic policies and behaviors driving these candles would not have gone unchecked for so long. i introduced a greater supervision and banking act to shine a light on working conditions for employees, from pay equity to accountability for workplace harassment. congress must pass this bill to support workers. my bill would also require transparency on meaningful consumer protections. now, i've been having a hard time really keeping track of the various legal actions that have taken place here by those represented on this panel. including your own bank, mr. cecere. let's establish a few things for the record. on july 28th of this year, the cfpb announced that your bank had illegally access to customers credit reports and open to checking and savings accounts, credit cards and lines of credits without those customers permission. mr. cecere, how many accounts were opened without customers permission?
>> thank you for that question. first, we sincerely regret and take full responsibility that even one customer or account would have been opened in an inappropriate fashion. it's against not only our standards of procedures but it's against our core ethics as an organization. this relates to a five-year opportunity with the cfpb that dates back to 2010. during that timeframe, we've identified 342 accounts which represent -- >> 342 accounts, all right. that is going to be my next question, to take full responsibility for the violations of the law? >> we do. it's not we seek to do and we have -- >> thank, you you should. the cfpb's investigation certainly told a disturbing top-down story of failure. her bank imposed sales goals on employees. as part of their job requirements, while knowing this pressure was leading employees to unlawful behavior. based on reports, i believe if your employees had the opportunity to collectively
bargain and improve their working conditions, consumers would not have been exploited. that's not limited to just your recent scandal. it goes for every bank president. so, again, for the record, i would like a response from the entire panel. for all witnesses, please raise your hand if you are willing to commit to non interference in any of your employees efforts to organize a union. i will begin from right to left here, my right. mr. cecere, yes or no? >> we believe dealing directly with the employees, -- >> you just raise a hand? i'm running out of time, 50 seconds. will you raise a hand if you agree to not interfere? >> we do not retaliate or interfere. >> you can raise your hand then. mr. demchak, can you raise your hand if you are willing to commit to non interference and any of your employees efforts to organize a union? i don't need to go one
person at a time. this is an easy question. please raise your hand. >> i can't raise my hand to that. we wouldn't -- interfere >> keep going, you're committing to non interference. mr. demchak, you're not. mr. dimon? okay, thanks for your transparency on the record that you will interfere. miss fraser, will you interfere? show of hands or yes or no. >> we will certainly not retaliate, but we will expect to have an active conversation with our employees. >> take that as a, yes thank you for your transparency for the record. thank you, miss fraser. mr. moynihan, will you interfere? i'm running out of time, show of hands, a gentleman. mr. scharf, mr. moynihan, mr. rogers, will you agree to not interfere? >> i'll answer the question, we agreed to abide by the law will not retaliate against employees. it's not a simple -- >> we listen to our teammates and not retaliate. >> mr. scharf, yes or no? >> we will listen and not retaliate.
>> your workers are watching and they deserve accountability. thank, you madam chair, i yield back. >> thank, you the gentleman from tennessee, mr. rose, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank, you chairwoman waters and ranking member mchenry for holding this hearing. i think support we conduct oversight of the nation's largest banks, particularly in this climate where many are ending progressive activists and declining to provide access to financial services for legally operating businesses. mr. dimon, you previously testified before the committee in may 2021 that there are certain areas where you have, quote, cutback, unquote, because, quote, the risk, legal or regulatory, is to hide to do business, close quote. i have become aware of bank denial letters that jpmorgan, and for the record others of the banks here today, have sent to independent atm operators. we are jpmorgan
stays that they have a policy in place where the bank does not bank private atm operators. madam chair, for the record, i would like to enter into the record an article from the wall street journal from february 19th of this year that is entitled gassed nation atms are a banking battleground. the subtitle, banks worried about the risks are turning away the owners of independent atms, a lifeline to the underbanked. >> without objection, such as the order. >> thank you very much. a previous iteration of the federal financial institution examination councils bank secrecy act council categorize the entire atm industry as high risk. the new version, released in september of 2021 at the, after the hastening of many members on a bipartisan nature of this committee, now states that, quote, not all independent atm owner or operator customers pose the same risk. and not all independent atm owner or
operator customers are automatically higher risk, close quote. additionally, it's hopefully are all aware, on july 6th, all of the f f i. e. c agencies issued a statement saying that independent atm operators are not categorically i risk. again, madam chair, i'd like to enter a copy of that released a statement for the record. >> without, objection such as the order. >> so, mr. dimon, why are you, lies your bank, still categorically denying access to financial services for an entire legally operating industry? >> i don't like it when i hear that we're doing the whole industry, i think that's a
mistake, you should evaluate each customer one by one and determine if the risk is high. i don't know if that's true, i have to get back to you on it. i do know there is one large one that we stopped banking. >> okay, i appreciate that. i guess my next question would be, can you commit to taking a look at the bank's policy with respect to this class of customers? >> of course. >> thank you. to save time, but for the record, i would appreciate if the rest of you would also respond to the question of whether you will take a fresh look in light of this new guidance at whatever policies you have in place with respect to this class of customers. would you all commit to giving us a review of your policies on that? very good. so, i'm concerned about this issue in a broader context. which is other places where your banks are not banking legally operated businesses. it's an area of a heightened concern, i hope you all will be mindful of that and how important that is. particularly when you are serving customers that are lifelines to financial services
for the underbanked. so, thank you for that commitment. mr. moynihan, i want to shift for a moment, in 2019 at fortunes inaugural brainstorm conference, you said that you want a cashless society and that bank of america has more to gain than anybody if we were to eliminate cash as a payment option. mr. moynihan, this may be difficult for you to empathize with, but i can show you in my district that not everyone has access to financial services. i bet you have a bank account, i do as well and can readily access funds to pay for goods and services. but not everybody has that luxury. if you eliminate cash and cash options to pay for food and other necessities, you end up making it more difficult to survive for our most vulnerable populations. i'm wondering if you had bank of america, why do you think it's okay to make it okay to be more difficult to be poor? what
would you tell someone who gets their pay in cash, and you walks into a grocery store that does not accept cash under your ideal society? >> sir, i think a couple things. one is, between today and tomorrow at this time, $200 million would go out of atms as our company's cash. the idea of eliminating cash is when people don't need to use cash. it safer and more secure. we have multiple means to do it, anybody can get a bank account a bank of america if they have proper identification and $5 a month. it allows them to get cash out of the atms, go to any branch, do anything you or i could do there. i think the context of that is, how do we save money and industry for people like yourself or companies in terms of moving cash et cetera? >> thank, you i yield back, madam chair. >> the gentleman from new jersey, mr. gottheimer, also the vice chair of the committee on national security, international development and monetary policy, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairwoman. thank you all witnesses for being
here. the financial services and make it a street directly supports more than 75,000 jobs in new jersey. provides local small businesses with the capitol they need to create thousands more. i want you to know that i'm grateful, and thank you for doing business in new jersey. mr. dimon, if i can start with you please. thanks for being here and all the important work jpmorgan does to support thousands of new jersey jobs. i believe more new jersey residents 11 york should have the option to stay awake in jersey if they can, to the for the local small businesses, spending more time with family and saving on gas and parking in new york. staying in jersey also means stopping new york's proposed rages congestion tax plan. the metropolitan transit authorities congestion techs will cause commuters $23,000 a day. and by the empty's own admission, shift pollution and congestion to new jersey on the outer boroughs. this tax like is unaffordable for many new jersey residents and alert nurses, restaurant workers
another in mass transit deluxe with no choice but to commute into new york city. i want to get your sense, if you would, what you think of imtiaz congestion tax proposal. he think this is something we should reconsider, given how it will hit hardworking families? >> i honestly have not really looked into it. i've read about it, if it hurts certain groups disproportionately, you should look at. it it has worked in other cities, there may be ways to ameliorate the people who get hurt by it. >> i appreciate that, yes, we're very concerned about the impact it's going to have on hardworking families and actually cause more congestion and pollution. miss fraser, if i can turn to you for a second, i'm working with new jersey legislators to trade talks with a nose for new york businesses open up new regional hubs in north jersey to allow workers who would normally commute to new york tuesday and work in
jersey. the empty a post for things like their proposed congestion tax hike, would you consider expanding your offices in jersey for this purpose or allowing people to have more regional flexibility to work? >> we very much appreciate how expensive it is getting for our people to commute. we're very mindful around that. as well as being flexible for working families, and providing the more options. additional facilities and spaces for them to work, either at home or in new jersey or in connecticut. these are certainly things that we have been looking at actively in the tri-state area. >> thank you, thank you for the 6000 jobs you have a new jersey. thank you. mr. dimon, if i can ask one other question, i'd like to ask about another topic have been focused on. throughout the development of digital assets and related technology. i believe the united states should lead the development of emerging technologies like distributed ledger some blockchain on the federal government should provide what is certainly needed for financial innovation. provided financial stable coins, which i know the ranking member is also working on. selectively appropriate regulator. i've heard that you are skeptical of some of these technologies, but one of these things keeping you from being
more active in the space? do you worry that we would miss the boat to give other nations like china an opportunity to advance our digital currency another payment systems that could undermine the u.s. dollar? i love to get some of your thoughts on that. >> you have to separate blockchain, which is real ledgers, tokens that do something and deliver information, money, ideas, simplify, smart contracts. that's one thing. i'm not a skeptic, i'm a major skeptic on crypto tokens, but you call a currency, like bitcoin. they are decentralized ponzi scheme's. and the notion that it's good for anybody is unbelievable. we sit here in this room and talk about a lot of things, but two billion dollars has been lost. every year, 30 billion dollars and ransomware, am l, sex trafficking, stealing. it is dangerous. there would be nothing wrong with a stable coin properly, like a money market fund, properly regulated. you have some today and they are not. jp morgan, we are a big user blockchain, as the jpmorgan coin. which is a token, but to send it to us you get a u.s., dollar it's $1 deposit. he could be moved just
away cryptocurrencies can be moved, stable value, very low cost. >> thank you so much. mr. scharf, if i can ask you a quick question. ifill called the stable coin protection act that would create guardrails to ensure that their bank of cash and prevent runs like we saw with the so-called stablecoin tara earlier this year. do you think that would be a step in the right direction or have you considered this? >> that is certainly an option, in order to ensure that people understand the underlying value of that stable coin. >> mr. dimon, how do you feel about protections like that? clearly defining what a stable coin is, making sure it's backed, 1 to 1. >> it's equivalent to a money market fund, you should look at the exact same way in terms of disclosure, backup, gates and a whole bunch of different things. >> thank you. i thank you all for being here again, we're very grateful. thank you. >> thank you very much. the gentleman from south carolina, mr. timmons, it's recognized
for five minutes. >> thank, you madam chair. thank you all for being here, there's so many of you and you are all very kind to take time out of your busy, busy days to come and testify before us here today. earlier in this, hearing my colleague, congressman luetkemeyer, i thought took a fascinating line of questioning with you all. i don't rehash that but i think it's worth discussing the economic relationship between the united states and china. our two countries are obviously competing in a multitude of ways, economically, geopolitically, et cetera. but it really is more than that. it's also a clash of civilizations. it's a clash of autocracy versus democracy, a clash versus a command economy
and capitalism. i think we all realize the vastness of the chinese market and how lucrative it may appear to you all, there is a cost of doing business there. as my colleague earlier said, for the time being, china is the ccp and the ccp is china. they control everything. culturally, the chinese government views it as our obligation to give chinese businesses a competitive advantage in the global economy through a variety of avenues. so, when you are doing business in china, and many of not most instances you are doing business with the chinese communist party. mr. dimon, can you speak to this competition between our country in the west and china more broadly? and what you see as your institutions roll, and other similar institutions, that competition being? if china becomes a dominant economic power in the world, which is no doubt their goal, what do you think will be the consequences
for freedom for us? >> america, if you had to do a full comparison, we have all the food, war and energy we need. they don't. we have the atlantic of pacific and wonderful neighbors and candid and pacific, they're in the most complex region of the world. they have negligible autocracy, huge amount of corruption, they don't have our financial, system they don't have our innovative, society than one of the gifts of the society and free enterprise. before americans panic about it we should be very thoughtful, but you're absolutely correct. this relationship for the next 5200 years of most important in the world. america wants to make the next century our century, we have to be very careful about strategic economic trade and all those issues that really matter. i think is really important that you understand that the american government to sets foreign policy. yeah american government does not want american business to disengage from certain parts of the world, that would probably be a bad idea. and policy is diplomatic, development, aid, economic. and america should negotiate, which is very comfortable with. almost everyone at this table will do what asked to buy the american government. that's what we want to do, and we obviously talk to them quite a bit about this issue. it's just
as boring to me as it is to you and your constituents. >> sure, thank you for that. miss fraser, do you have any thoughts? >> let me look at the clients that we serve, many of them are multinational clients in china. i see there's a high degree of interdependence, as we've experienced. and the europeans have experienced as i've tried to decouple the russian economy from the western economies. so, i think, as we look forward, we have to take a strategic view. in america, as to where it is we need more strategic independents. and to build that in a thoughtful manner. but also in a way that doesn't cause crises, economic crises along the way. i'm obviously not in a position to comment on the broader factors. >> sure, thank you. i just have serious concerns that the way
that the western world, the way we're united against the aggression in ukraine and the sanctions that were placed upon russia and the military aid that was given to ukraine, things seem to be going in the right direction there. my concern is that china was watching and learned what the west is not going to tolerate. that there is a way to try to thread the needle in a moment of what i would argue is weakness for our country. i'm just afraid that, if it happens, something happens in taiwan, that not only will the western democracies not unite, but the global economy will not step forward and defend our allies in taiwan. so, i just keep that in mind as developments progress over the coming months. with that, madam chair, i yield back. >> thank you. the gentleman
from new york, mr. torres, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank, you madam chair. a few months ago, the new york times read an article titled, quote, fraught is flourishing intel, the bank says not their problem. article features the story of bruce berke, who is in the hospital's covid-19 when a thief stole his, phone access is digital wallet, random charges on his credit, card took cash to be atm and made a money transfer via zelle. bank of america reimbursed mr. barr's four losses associated with his credit card and atm, but not with the losses associated with zelle. according to the article, after being contacted by the new york times, bank of america ultimately relented and remembers mr. barr's for the
loss is associated with cell. since the episode with mr. barrett, my question for bank of america, as bank of america adopted a policy of reimbursing below a zellwood customers for losses caused by unauthorized users or fraud? >> we have a policy where we, if a client of ours sends money to another client in defraud, we will take care of that. because we should have let the other person in. and frankly, that's the kind of work we are doing as an industry. i think, you are here earlier, but the context of zelle fraud is that it's lower than check in our company, the claims for fraud. so, we are working hard as an industry to take the fraud out of the system. among all of, us by working together. because inside the zelle platform, it's another banking customer, and we kick banks out of zelle who don't have the capabilities to assess. that >> is what to make sure i'm understanding the answer. those losses caused by an authorized user or by fraud via zelle, a b of a customer, like a situation like mr. births. would you reimburse? >> if the situation is what they call a p2p transfer from a
customer to a customer, we will remember.'s across the industry will do the same thing. >> what if the victim is only a customer? >> the other institution, where the money went, trying to recover it and we work it through. we reimburse a lot of the fraud. >> the headline suggests that -- >> the headline? >> the headline suggest the bank says it's not their problem. that might suggest that the banks deny. let me ask my question, let me ask my question, i have to reclaim. the article claims that the banks denied that there is their responsibility. i just want to ask all the owners of zelle, do you acknowledge that your bank, as a partial owner of zelle, has a responsibility for combatting fraud on zelle and reimbursing customers for losses caused by unauthorized uses and fraud? >> let me be precise. >> i'm going to start with u. s. bank corp. >> yes, if the customers
credentials are stolen and they did not transact, we will reimburse in that situation. >> thank you for that clearance. or >> p and c? >> yes, you're describing traditional fraud that is covered under -- >> jpmorgan? >> unauthorized, generally covered. >> i don't think citibank is an honor of zelle, but do you want to give me a clear answer? >> i gave you, an unauthorized transactions are covered. you asked for something else. >> mr. rogers? >> unauthorized transactions are covered. >> mr. scharf? >> same, unauthorized transactions would be reimbursed. >> i have a question about cybersecurity. with the russian invasion of ukraine there comes a heightened threat of cyber retaliation from russia. as your bank seen an escalation in financial attacks on the cyber sector? start with u.s. banker. >> we have not seen any indication of an attack. >> dnc?
>> same. >> jp morgan? >> i think of the united states government credit for working closely with the banks. we expected a lob we've not seen a lot, very little bit but that doesn't mean it's over. >> city group? >> we have not seen that in the united states. >> bank of america? >> we haven't seen a major increase, but the question is what happens next. >> truist? >> we have not seen a major increase specifically related to that. >> wells fargo? >> same answer as my colleagues. >> i'm just curious, what's the size of your budget for cybersecurity in each of your bank's? pnc? >> i don't know if the top of my head, i would assume it's close to the sides of u.s. banks. >> jp morgan? >> $700 million directly, a lot more indirectly. >> citigroup? >> same, almost $800 million. >> bank of america? >> roughly one billion dollars and a lot indirectly with our partners. >> truist? >> several hundred million dollars, directly ended directly. >> wells fargo? >> partly seven or $800 million.
>> my time is better expired, thank you. >> thank you very much. the gentleman from texas, mr. gooden, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank, you madam chair, i let to thank you all for being here. thank you, mr. scharf, the last amount of wells fargo ceo come before here didn't go well and you've done a tremendous job with your institution. i want to congratulate you, so thank you. i had some follow-up to a lot of the conversations we had on china earlier today. i'll start with you, miss fraser, citi former global head of investment banking praise the chinese communist party's belt and road initiative. in fact, he said, quote, citi the strategy is directly associated with 32 of the 69 countries, which is more than any other global institutions or any other financial institution. and citi should play a leading role in this belt and road initiative, and quote. it's my belief that the chinese
communist party uses this initiative to get unfair advantages to chinese companies and forces developing countries into debt traps, often with public corruption paving the way. i witnessed this on a trip to the middle east with my great chairwoman, maxine waters. where we are told of extreme corruption that the chinese companies have been involved in across the african continent. by participating in the belt and road initiative, you are supporting significant risks to our national security and global economy. miss fraser, citi support of the belt and road initiative presents a serious conflict of interest by helping our strongest adversary expand across the globe. do you understand the support of the belt and road initiative as directly opposed to the national security interests of the united states? >> thank you very much for the opportunity to answer the question. i do not believe, certainly since i took over as ceo, but i don't believe before that either that we have played a meaningful role, if any role, and the chinese belt and road
initiative. >> that is wonderful to hear. that has changed, i celebrate that. but that was, i believe, recently. that the head of corporate governance, corporate strategy, said that. the respect to russia, i'll continue with you, miss fraser. you said recently that you want citi to be a bank with a soul. when you explain to me or justify perhaps how financing russian gas giant loop oil while pledging to finance american producers accomplishes that goal? >> as we've talked about, we have already, in a short period of time, materially reduced our activities in russia. we are winding down our consumer franchise there and consumer banking franchise as we speak. and have been doing similarly with our corporate franchise. what we are primarily doing is supporting the multinationals that -- helping them in large part with their exit and winding down on the ground. >> will you commit, today, to divest from russian oil and gas giant loop oil, which is funding this invasion of
ukraine? >> i cannot imagine that we would have a meaningful role with them going forward. >> thank you. >> mr. moynihan, do you support a free and democratic taiwan? does your bank as well? >> yes. >> mr. dimon, do you all share those views as well? a free taiwan. >> sport freemen democracy everywhere, not going to comment specifically on taiwan, but something a specific because it is that statement. >> some of you earlier declined to condemn the ongoing human rights problems in china with the uyghurs. the united nations, organizations and alike have condemned china's actions. we'll citibank condemn the ongoing human rights abuses in china at the hands of the
chinese communist party? >> we certainly take any of the accusations of human rights abuses anywhere, wherever they around the world, very seriously. we will be vocal in our distress at them occurring. >> will you condemn the ongoing human rights abuses in china at the hands of the chinese communist party? >> condemn is a very strong word. >> yes it is, so is genocide and slavery. >> we certainly are very distressed to see it going on, we do not want to have human rights abuses happening anywhere in the world we or anyone else operate. >> thank you. i would encourage all of you to get out of doing business with russia and be very careful on china, because they're working very strongly against our nation. and some of the answers earlier and the hesitancy to offend the chinese when many of your organizations are still willing to come down to washington and assert
yourselves into politics, you seem hesitant to condemn things as simple as slavery and genocide, is alarming to me. but thank, you i yield back. >> thank you, mr. gooden. the gentleman from massachusetts, mr. lynch, who is also the chair of the task force on financial technology, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank, you madam chair. mr. moynihan, bank of america has a very strong presence in my district. i have have the city of boston, i share that with miss pressley. i love quincy and brockton. i just want to say, to your credit, we're trying to rebuild over 1000 deeply affordable housing units in the city. miriam, mccormick housing development. one of the oldest public housing developments in the history of
the country. that allows not only to do thousands of deeply affordable units but also workforce housing. so, people in the middle of it seem to be priced out in our area. but i want to thank, you because bank of america has committed funding to that sometime ago. but it's good work, and we appreciate it. i had a chance to sit with me hall chamberlain, who represents you in our area. and the diversity, equity and inclusion subcommittee here with miss beatty, i asked him about progress on our hiring goals within the city of boston and brockton, in my district. the numbers were much improved, but i'd like to hear you talk about the system more generally. not just in my district. one area where i think we do need a lot more progress is that, as a chair mentioned, i chair the task
force on fintech. there is very little funding going to minority fintech principles, in terms of pushing their projects forward. it's really deplorable, in terms of, i think, it's less than 5% of the money that goes to minority heads of fintech firms. concerned about that. so, i'd like to hear about your efforts in both regards. >> so, on hiring, starting with who works for our company. women are more than half the workforce, 49% diverse from the top the company to the bottom. managers, 42% women, 42% people of color. this is a 30-year effort of continuing to work and watch how the hiring flows through, to get the representation of society. the team has done a good job with that. in addition, we have committed to hiring 10,000 people of all ethnicities from lower or moderate income neighborhoods. we completed, that we said five years but did
it in three years. we completed another 10, 000, in addition working on job initiatives and boston and other cities where we try to get kids to come work for companies like ours and my colleagues companies, great companies that offer great benefits a great starting wages right out of high school. and we do the training, here is the job, it's a training we, need we get them to the community college established him do it. going to the question of finding, one of the things that we've perceived as we looked at it, the exact point you made, the need to create equity and smaller sizes for women owned businesses, african american owned businesses, black businesses. asian, as, bennett latino. as we like, that the private equity funds right there. we want to find 100 private funds around the country, we committed $350 million to those funds. other people of come in and they now funded almost 1000 companies. so, the entrepreneurs, the private equity people, for lack
of a better term, about from those ethnicities. and the countries invested in are owned by people from those ethnicities and genders. those companies don't get funded and prior cycles because they were too small, hard to find, all that stuff. now, it's happening and we expect this program to build. we have clients that come and say can we put money with us, that's good. my colleague companies have done similar things. but we're all trying to find a way to create opportunities outside our companies, that's what we're trying to find. >> very good. let me, ask i know we had a series of questions before on zelle, the whole payments piece of this. i'm just trying to figure out how to get as some of the fraud. is the lack of latency in that system, does that lend itself more to fraud because of the speed and finality of the transaction? does that seem to be -- >> if i could jump in here. >> sure, please. >> the traditional fraud in zelle his minute, it's two basis points -- >> let me just say though,
interject. i'm not talking about that instance. when we issued money through the cares act, the small business association administration, 75% of the fraud on the money going out to people was emergency funding. we had to get it in a hurry, part of the blame is with us. but 75% of that fraud is through digital lending and applications. there's more to it. >> you're hitting on a very important point for our country and for. our industry zelle is a closed network system, it is a bad transaction between jpmorgan and ourselves, i can tell jamie, he closes the account, it gets fixed. if it's outside the banking system and a fintech open system, it's invisible to us. that's where the scams occur. we have no regulation once it gets outside of the banking system.
>> madam chair, thank you for your indulgence, i yield back. >> thank you very much. the gentleman from wisconsin, mr. steil, it's recognized for five minutes. >> thank, you madam chairwoman. i want to bring us back to inflation, the american people are getting clobbered by higher costs every day. if some of the financial minds of the country backed by a whole array of economists and experts that are looking at economic data. as we see 40 year highs of inflation, 8. 3%, people are finding it harder and harder to buy the things that their family needs. i think a lot of this was avoidable, and was a result of bad policy choices here in washington. i would love to get your flavor here as to what policies are driving inflation in our country, you can help families who are struggling to get by. mr. dimon, if i can, the 1. 9 trillion dollar
reconciliation bill has been described as inflationary, excessive spending. do you believe that 1. 9 trillion dollar bill by the biden administration played into inflation? >> i mentioned earlier today that we had six trillion spending over 30 years. 60% of the gdp, larger it's been since the great, war world war ii. obviously it drives some of the inflation, but there is war in ukraine -- >> not there's other factors in play. but it piled on to that. i want to continue, inside we have the inflation reduction act that i think the inflation reduction act. then, we saw the biden administration unilaterally act on june, lows i'm not asking you to act on the constitutionality of, that i think the legal move. let's get a comment on the fairness of that. is that an inflationary move by the biden administration, to shift the burden of student debt to all taxpayers?
>> yes, it was badly done. i wish they had targeted the people who actually needed help. they reform to the under ranks when the government took over in 2012, they stopped underwriting. we got out of business a second that happened, knowing it was going to be an unmitigated disaster. they still have to fix the underwriting, they haven't fixed the cost of college. we basically put a band-aid on it, but a lot of money and didn't fix the problem which will now be ongoing. please, give it a fix. >> we'll be well-served by actually holding hearings here in congress before hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent on concerns about the fairness aspect. i think there's far better ways to do it, and i completely agree with you. it does not address the underlying problem, which is the fact that we have skyrocketing college tuition costs. let me shift gears slightly and look at the impact on housing. i know many of you
have exited the housing sector due to a whole host of regulatory burdens put in place by the federal government, driving up this is a test the cost of americans for c-span were trying to get america live from loans. but montreal, quebec, canada. as we look at the impact that higher interest rates are having on americans, i think it's quite significant. the median home price of the state wisconsin's $271,000. as he was $250,000. an this increase of 20,000. the interest rate is a chance to, on, to, green. on the 30 year mortgage one from 2. 8 6% and is now at 6%. your monthly payment on the same home in wisconsin, just similar to across the country, increase from $828 a month to $1,302 a month. $500 a month more to buy the same house in wisconsin, at a period of time when families can't keep up with rising costs. if i can with you, i'm aware that your bank for many reasons exited many areas in this case. got a lot of visibility into millions of
americans financial picture. gets this out, how is this impacting your customers? >> customers doing okay, that inflation high rates are going to eat away at their balance sheets, health, jobs and spending money. and there are ways i wish this group would work on to reduce the cost of mortgages officially ineffectively, to make the more affordable today despite rates going up. >> so, let's dive into that if we can, -- for a second in the last decade, congressman regulators implemented complex acquitted saboteurs regime i would argue in the spring of 2020 present a stress test above all stress tests. in the banking system it came through that, showed it was adequately had a [interpreter] -- to increase capital requirements including proposals to take u. s. standards over and above international standards? >> in the u.s., we call it gold
plated, we take wherever the international standards are an add something to it. we want to be better. i think the stress tests have shown, the real live stress that the system is very adequately capitalize. it has a lot of liquidity. thank. you >> thank you very much, madam chairwoman, i yield. bag >> -- on the side of the aisle, i applaud president biden on student loan forgiveness. very important the gentleman from pennsylvania, miss dean is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. thank you to all our ceos for your time. i listened with interest to all your opening statements. there are certain phrases that popped out to me. for example, mr. cecere, you said you're one of the world's most ethical companies. miss fraser, and you spoke globally that our banks are the envy of the world. mr. dimon, he said part of your work is to help solve the
problems facing our country. that's our mission to. to help solve the problems that are facing our country. one of the problems that's facing our country day in and day out, are the deaths from gun violence. since 2009, the united states has suffered a devastating 281 mass shootings. causing more than 1500 deaths and obviously, so many more injured and terrified. we know that some of the deadliest mass shootings, have been financed with -- for example, in orlando the pulse nightclub shooter charged more than $26,000 in credit card charges on guns and ammunition in the 12 days ahead of his killing spree that killed 49, and wounded 53 others. his
average spending prior to this was 1500 dollars a month. when you consider that to be suspicious activity, a razor had, i'm not of your head, do you find it suspicious activity? i'm seeing some sort of. -- >> we don't know what they spend the money on. >> well, we have a reason to talk positively about that. there's a way for us to know. in addition, before the pulse nightclub shooter racked up credit card that i'm gone and ammunition purchases he ran several online searches to determine whether his credit card unusual spending would be flag and reported to police. of course, it was not. to your point, mr. dimon, you don't know what he was spending it. on to set the record straight, on an issue a few of my republican colleagues have freeze today, which is the newly created merchant category
code, mcc for gun attenuation retail stores. as you may know, i cool light a letter with senator warren -- and given that the international organization for substandard nation has voted to create the code, i want to confirm your response to mr. williams's question, that you will be using the code, is that correct? i'm seeing a general, absolute yes there. it's my understanding, you have already practices for the detection of fraud and suspicious activity. is that generally true, yeah, as we've talked a lot about fraud. do you think that this code, for example had a been in place -- extraordinary activity of the ultimate shooter and killer in the pulse instance. would it have been useful to know that racking up of credit
card charges very unusually. wouldn't that have been useful to note? there is sort of a maybe. >> if you know what is for and who it is and why, then yes. >> that's why this code is going to be important. >> all those gun sales would be reported to the government, all of them. >> if fraser, i was thinking of, you because you had such a global view of what you're doing. i know you all do, frankly. i wasn't eastern europe in central europe recently, have to be the week of uvalde. i think about the global shame that comes upon this country as a result of our out of control problem with gun violence. 54,000 people last year died of gun violence, 4400 of them children. in these meetings in europe, each meeting began with we are so sorry for your tragic losses in buffalo and uvalde. what responsibilities do you, the banks, have? what conversations have you had around your
boardrooms to say, how can we help slow the tragic loss of life due to gun violence? we know that many of the transactions are coming through our systems. miss fraser, what can you do? >> thank you very much for your question. as you, say we do operated a number of countries where they have tragic deaths from gun violence around the world. this is something, sadly, we see in many different countries. >> none quite like ours. >> understood. but it is a problem in many countries. we have a lot of discussions with our board, also with our employees who are concerned for their safety and their security as well. for our customers. they come into branches around the world. so, it is an active dialogue about what we could do to help prevent -- >> i think the chairwoman, i
ask you to continue to partner with us to try to reduce this scourge. >> thank you, the gentleman from south carolina, mr. norman, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, i'd like to thank all the witnesses for appearing today. i hadn't been in for all the questions, but it shocks me, some of the questions you've been asking. it really shocked me. i've heard trying to shift blame for gun violence, i've heard things about on equal equity in housing that you're responsible for, i've heard one of the members say you socked. when you ask the question, i don't understand, this maybe you can help me. when i asked a question, i think the bulk of
it was if how many of you raise your hand if you would have a president color for you in leadership. and nobody raise their hand or made a comment on it. by the way, i'm a real estate development from rockville, south carolina, part of the delegation there. i'm not a politician. but i don't understand the bonuses just not there to fly back at some of these people what they're asking. why would the answer to that question be mr. miss politician, we don't look at color, we look at achievement. we look at past history of building banks, because it's a business that you are in. mr. moynihan, when the content sock came in, your predecessor, i'd like to see his response. i don't think he would've had a real marine response to that, because you all represent such a vital part of our economy. your competitors, you compete.
i don't understand why the boldness is not there. to fly back, you can't satisfy this group and that's why the american people are so frustrated. talk about global shame? leaving americans behind it all of the world as a shade, leaving a billion dollars on the ground is a shame. at 41 high is a shame. having cut off the gas supplies from various people that are killing your customers. because the last time i checked, buying all the natural gas from countries that hate us, don't make really good sense, for the customer to you represent and build share value. eight -- 37 cosponsors, i asked them questions. why is painful abortions for your -- shareholder value. there is disagreement owned what health care is. i don't consider health care killing a baby. but that being said, y'all have an
opportunity to show boldness. and maybe my letter to you, the board of directors is not yet involved, for sending the letter, certified mail to every director of your corporations. it's an honest opinion to understand it, for someone in the workforce, i did make my money in politics. so many of these professional politicians have done. i would just beg you to get your voice back. this esg stuff, really? you just lay them down and take it. so, i guess the response as, the silence has been deafening to me. as a guy who competes and pays a lot of taxes, and who does it gladly. to support our law enforcement, first responded, and our schools. you
represent a great tradition. i wish you would just voice your opinion more. the disney company learned a valuable lesson in trying to get something they don't have a chance to be heavily involved with. the governor taught them a lesson. i hope and pray will have more governors to teach lessons to companies who have no business getting in the political arena. so, thank you for what you do. put a value, what's the cost of esg that you apply with, let's start with mr. scharf, you have 45 seconds? >> today, it's small but it will grow to be substantial. >> similarly, i don't know the exact number. it's small and growing. >> what small? >> maybe in the tens of millions, relative to our size. >> mr. moynahan? >> today, the gathering data is small, it'll grow because we're getting more requests that were not sure are the right thing. more requests from data from our sources. >> i would keep the same answer, thank. you >> small things lead today --
and dividends is a big thing. >> yes sir. i'll get you an exact number, tens of millions. but esg requests from every regulator around the world, every central bank around the world, every governor. it'll likely be hundreds of millions of dollars. >> can she answer that, mister chairman? will you answer? >> it's a large number and growing. -- to jamie's point. >> same kind. >> gentleman's time has expired. the gentlewoman from michigan, miss -- is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. thank you so much for being here. i appreciate this opportunity. you know, i represent one of the largest populated counties in michigan. in recent years, the michigan chapter of the american -- on american islamic relations has filed complaints regarding banking
discrimination against those -- and so, mr. moynihan, in may, you might know that there was a class action lawsuit that was filed alleging that were -- discriminatory banking practices by targeting and restricting and causing -- by fate. are you aware of that? >> no i am not, madam. >> right now, it's a class filed one of them's mohammed, all the banks requirements of showing residency and providing proof of that. and still, his account was unlawfully closed. how does your bag ensure that the banks consumer, customer identification program complies with a amal -- whole classes of
consumers from access to banking services to support their families and businesses? what steps have you guys taken, in that regard. it sounds like you don't even know about the class action suit, you do not care? >> i said before, i'm not aware of the class action suit. we have a deep history of thanking all americans, and another million americans this quarter. so, i think we -- >> [inaudible] >> if you have a specific issue -- >> sir, you should be very concerned. mr. moynihan, you should be concerned because again you could see there is a pattern that specific groups, certain backgrounds, ethnicities, or faith, this is a lawsuit that we filed in may. and that we need to make sure
that americans of different faiths, are now -- are not being targeted. that you guys are not implementing processes that singles them out. are you at least supportive of making sure that you're not discriminating against the whole community? >> i can assure you, that's not the case. >> okay, well i hope you have good lawyers. you have all committed, as you know, to transition the admissions from lending and investment activities to lying with pathways to net zero in 2050. do you know what the international energy agency has said, it's required to meet the global 2015, targets of limiting global temperature rise to 2. 7 degrees fahrenheit, or 1. 5 degrees celsius. so, no new fossil fuel production starting today, so, that's like zero. i would like to ask all of you, go down the list. again, you all have agreed to do this. please answer with a simple yes or no, does your bank have a policy for funding new oil and gas products, mr. dimon? >> absolutely not. that would be a role for for america. >> everybody that got really from student loans as a bank
account, your bank should take out their account and close their account. the fact that you're not even there to help relieve many of the folks that are in that. extreme that because of student loan debt, and you're criticizing. it miss fraser, how about you? >> we will continue to invest in support clients who invest in fossil fuels and in helping them transition to cleaner energy's. >> and mr. moynihan? >> we're helping our clients make a transition, that means that we're lending to both oil and gas companies, and new energy companies, and monitoring the standards you're talking about. >> and mr. cecere? >> the same thing as mr. moynihan said. >> yeah, i'm not gonna ask you mr. dimon, you obviously don't care about working class people, frontline communities like ours,
that are facing huge amounts of high rates of asthma -- issues in so many more. cancer rates are high among like communities that i represent. i won't even ask if you're committing to any financing. but miss fraser, moynihan mr., scharf, we're living through a climate crisis today. and the commitment to net zero requires a commitment to fossil fuel financing. it's important because i want you all to know at the end, we're gonna pay the cost the public health impact. these are people you are supposed to be serving, folks that use was we providing in supporting and communities. anything else, defies alliance and scientific evidence at our disposal. if your financial institutions are gonna follow through, on the net zero commitments, then regulators including the federal reserve, and congress must step in to make. and with that, chairwoman thank you so much, it's so important for the people we represent. i yield back. >> thank you. the gentlewoman from new york, men's ocasio-cortez, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. thank
you to all our witnesses who are here testifying today. i want to dive a little bit into paycheck protection program. and a bit of what we've seen afterwards. i have one of three reports here that i'd like to present today, forbes report detailing some of the revenues that banks have made. during the paycheck protection program. and also digging into the fact that when it comes to loan forgiveness, small business administration, recently attempted, recently opened up a portal for small business owners to appeal directly with them for forgiveness. chase bank of america, b and c have opted out of that direct program. is that correct mister --? >> i believe so. i'm not aware of it. >> i'm not aware of it. >> so, for your awareness. your banks have opted out of
paycheck protection program forgiveness. >> excuse me, that is incorrect. >> with the portal, with the fbi, thank you. i'm just trying to finish my sentence. i'd like to zero in on the bank of america. mister moynihan, are you aware of how many ppp loans your bank has facilitated on behalf of its customers? >> almost 500, 000, 95% are forgiven and paid already. not sure about the rest of them. >> how many of those loans in terms of percentage, have those loans been forgiven in full, as opposed to impart? >> the loans that are forgiven, our vast majority have been forgiven are full. >> in full. what we're starting to see here, with some reporting in the intersection,
this is one reason why i was curious about the numbers. we're starting to see that bank of america is refusing to forgive some ppp loans in full. but in terms of the portal, the bank of america set up it's very difficult to appeal these decisions and in fact what we're seeing is that bank of america had pre populated forgiveness amount in their portal, sometimes drastically lower than small business owners had anticipated, and had qualified for. in instances where the small business owners had documentation, there is very little recourse or appeal. does your portal make it easy to appeal the decision so that after two attempts, the fda can then take over the case? >> borrowers can appeal, 95% of loans are forgiven, we're talking about the 5% of loans. a substantial part are going to
the appeal process as we speak. -- more in the process of finishing up that last 20,000 or so loans. it's a small amount of loans, and we're finishing it. up >> to certify that 95% is a full forgiveness amount? >> full of -- >> full forgiveness and not? partial >> the vast majority are full forgiveness. >> so, i apologize, not to belabor the point, is that 95% of partial loan forgiveness or a full loan forgiveness? >> -- 95% of them have gone already paid. the vast majority are full forgiveness. but -- the government designed a program and we implement the program on very short notice. half 1 million people, 10,000 people working on this program. each -- to help those at the time. so, we're finishing that
up. just let the process go, a lot of what you're reading frankly is not the facts. because it's old, it doesn't understand how the stuff has happened, give us some time will give you the facts and you'll see it. >> what is the reason bank of america jones to opt out of the s. p. a. portal? >> i can get someone to give you that. i have no idea. i told you before, i'm not sure we did or didn't. i have no idea why they make the decision. we are processing loans as fast as anybody. >> okay, i'm sorry, i'm having a tough time, this is about 25. 2 billion dollars in loan amounts in your bank, correct? >> not anymore. >> but at one point in time. or looking, you're uncertain as to why the bank has not chosen to enroll in the s. p. a. portal? >> i said we'll get you the information. the amount alone's that we have left on this thing
is a billion or so. it's down to a very little amount. it's all through, the team did a great job, we're happy to supply the information. >> we look forward to it. thank you very much. >> thank you. the gentleman from texas ms. garcia, who's also the vice chair of the subcommittee of inclusion is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. thank you so much for bringing this hearing to the table today. it's really important for us to continue our oversight rule in this committee. which as you know, we've been doing and continue to do today. i want to thank all the witnesses, it's been a long day and i want to apologize because you see me go in and out, triple book this afternoon i've been running to judiciary, markup, a hearing at armed services. i'm coming and going in all directions. but i wanted to be here to ask some specific questions related to a
bill that i recently introduced called the month -- financial literacy act. this bill to direct the financial literacy and education commission to conduct the study of the impact of limited english proficiency on financial help. in the u.s., over 20% of house speaker speak a language other than english. and nearly 9% of individuals have limited english proficiency, meaning they speak english, less than very well this means that 26 million households in the united states, have limited english proficiency. a huge number of potential customers. in your language, it is important to me and to my constituents which is my district, about 77% latino. it's important to me, it's important for the economy. that everyone, everyone have the
same opportunity for financial health. no matter what language they speak. so, mr. demchak, i want to begin with you. the bank has started in a mobile branch service, functioning in both english, spanish for underbanked communities in north texas. this bank and service operates at a 30 foot mobile unit. resembling an rv. residents have the option of withdrawing, depositing from -- and much more. is this ever been successful so far and have you been able to see, get a sense of the difference language of inclusion makes in financial services. are you expanding this to other mobile branches. are you telling your story so that perhaps some of the folks at the table with you can copy what you're doing? >> thank you for that. yes, yes, and yes. we have a fleet of mobile branches that are growing every day and they diplo into both rural and urban
communities. and the financial economics makes it through multiple communities. it's fancier than an rv. it offers every service that you can get in a traditional bank. so, i'll stop there. >> i buy call -- it >> it's from when we were kids. >> i grew up in a rural community and yes, the book mobile came by every week during the summer and my biggest disappointment was that before the end of the summer and already read every book in the book reveal. i was an avid reader, i believe in mobile units. thank you for doing that. and i hope your colleagues are listening because i think -- it's a model that can be used to serve so many under -- around our
country. my next question is for mr. dimon, earlier my district is 77 -- i notice in your remarks that you said that jpmorgan was advancing -- to latinos which is committed to creating a future where hispanics and latinos -- what does that mean, can you be specific as to what -- >> say it again. >> you said in your written testimony. that you are advancing hispanic and latino programs, which are committed to creating a future where hispanics, latinos worldwide have opportunities to grow and thrive. would you be more specific? >> hire, training, special program for mortgages. special programs for housing. special programs for education. we have banks in the bus. we have complete have's panic speaking -- hispanic is not a language. >> -- >> we try to do all of that.
it's been quite successful. >> well, i don't see much. there's events in houston, i haven't seen it thing in my neighborhood. i just wondered if you could be specific about a program where you are working and making sure that lets you know community is served. >> i've been to those communities myself. i'll send you all the documents and details. >> all right, i look forward to seeing. that and just one last thing for miss fraser, thank you for all the work, i noticed in your definite you said you're the number one for public housing lender. thank you, we need to do more. with that, i yield back. >> thank you. the gentleman from georgia, miss williams, who's also the vice chair and the subcommittee on oversight and investigations is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair, for
holding this meeting today. and thank you to our witnesses who joined us for this very long day. as a newer member of congress, i've the benefit of listening to all the other questions before it is my turn. a lot of my questions have already been answered. but i do have one that's very specific to my district, i represent, atlanta, georgia and atlanta leads the nation in the racial wealth gap. -- to help close the racial wealth gap. too many people have faced barriers to getting a home loan because of their lack of traditional credit information. i'm back 45 million people don't have enough credit history to be accurately scored. many of them are family, friends, and neighbors. that's why i'm very interested in bank of america's announcement last month, of a new special purpose credit program mortgage product. which requires no minimum credit score, and relies on factors such as rent, utility bills, phones, phone bills and auto insurance payments to
underwrite mortgage loans. mr. moynihan, do you expect this product will help more underserved borrowers including borrowers of color, who qualify for home mortgage and if so, how do you plan to track those results? >> we expected to expand mortgages to as you said, we will track the results because will be reporting on the success of the program along with our 15 billion dollar homeownership program. it's another version of. that we expected to help. >> the question was how do you plan to track the results not if you plan to track them. but how? >> every person that comes in, it's a special program is designated separately. so, you can see the application come through, the person is getting a down payment assistant, it's a special program so you track the results, you track it coming through. it's not a right away program that's available -- >> so, can you tell us more
about how this program will work in practice for example. how are borrowers gonna know that they can use rent another data that's not typically on their credit report to help him qualify for this new mortgage product? >> it's available at all our financial systems. you can find the information in on all our online systems, 97% of them -- and you can find it in our specialized mortgage product, money habits, things like that. it's available in all of our operating channels, everybody can see it and find it. >> this is something that people coming in to look for a mortgage product are told is available? >> i was at the branch of the street here, the day after we announced it, we have people coming in already. here in washington, d. c., i'm sure that we'll have a lot of people coming to the branches and accepting about the program. >> mr. moynihan, this is a great thing. i want to hear more about it so, if you can tell me more about why you
decided to make this pilot program available in certain cities, and if you expect to expand to other cities as well as expanding the product offering in the future? >> if the program is successful, and it serves a customer the hope that we wait does. we'll be able to bring it to other cities. it's an extension of what we've been doing for many, many, many years. the unique aspect of this is that from the 1974 equal credit opportunity act, enabling these programs, it has a little bit different call for qualification mechanism. so, we expected to be expanded to other sittings as we get used to, and see how it operates. it's about where the mortgage is being done and the borrower, not just about the borrower which other programs are. >> so, do you think it's reasonable and feasible for other bags to underwrite mortgages with this type of non traditional or alternative credit information? >> not only this reasonable, they already do it. i'm well aware that other institutions we spoke to earlier question to use a way to complete that part
of the credit analysis, above and beyond traditional means. >> i'd love to hear from other banks about what they're doing to underwrite mortgages with information for nontraditional or alternative credit information? >> we're doing fundamentally the same thing. i'll send you the package and how we do it. >> i love to hear more about? it anyone else? >> well, this is something that the occ has organized around project reach. or all the banks are working together to try and use all of the information that we have to go beyond -- to make credit decisions on a more informed basis. not just for mortgage, but a host of products. >> anyone else before my time expires? >> thank you madam chair for my
time today. i yield back. >> thank you. the gentleman from massachusetts, mr. auchincloss, who's the vice chair of the full committee is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. long hearing, almost done. as we've been in this hearing, the fed announced a 75 basis point increase. the fed chairman is channeling his inner -- and is committing publicly to using the full freight of monetary policy to reverse -- and inflation. his greatest asset, in this endeavor obese credibility as an inflation fighter. by a show of hands, how many of you have confidence in the feds resolve in 2022 and 2023 to pursue its mandate of price stability? >> that's a show of confidence from wall street and governor powell. the best way to reduce inflation is to expand the productive capacity of our economy. mr. dimon, you said
that in your remarks. that means -- and perhaps most impactful-y is building more housing. at the state and local level, it's pushing back on the opposition to multi family housing in particular. at the federal level, what can government and big banks do together to help build more affordable housing, to help build more affordable housing not just to finance it. mr. moynihan, because our home state of massachusetts so crucially under the weight of housing costs, i'd like the answer first and that anybody else can jump. >> so, if you're talking about developers, first of all, the financing we do an industrial financing. our company does five billion a year and housing. -- low income housing tax credit for. in terms of development, one of perceptions we need to create more development so a group of my colleagues have created $6 million of equity to go into more developers to close that gap. we are working in boston
to see if we can put together the same kind of program, on a theory that there's i need to develop more developers, that can do more work. it's a universal problem. whether it's -- boston same thing. new york city, getting housing development fast is critically important. it's a multi faceted question which requires to think about university housing, requires us to think about kids that work for us, new york city housing which is different from family housing. so, that's -- >> it takes some thinking. but most of all it takes some building. in massachusetts, we've created two jobs -- in the last 20. years you don't have to -- understand what happened as prices go up. and it's the single most important thing we can do in my home state to help people. and helping working families in particular. the property market in the u.s., is way too tight. but in china, it's collapsing. xi jinping's zero covid policy has been a catastrophe. the u.s. economy is growing faster than the chinese economy in the last year. for the first time
in my entire lifetime. work in capitol hill and wall street collaborate to seize the initiative, and help the -- for leadership of the world economy, mr. dimon, i'd love your thoughts? >> it's very important, we're doing that with some of the bills -- grants, solar, wind, power. hydroelectric power, building. sometimes it's the coordinated thing the building can't get built because a road can't get built because the water can't come, and the bridge can't be built. a lot of our schools -- there's a whole bunch of things. there's a great list, we can send it to you too. >> i appreciate that. if one other person can jump in if they have anything? >> earlier, when your colleagues mentioned investing in research. what america has, is the best research platform in the world. that's where you win long term. we have a lot of things short term, but long
term in the chips act -- it's critical as is the other piece. likewise, around the medical platforms we just saw -- in a minute -- why we didn't have to have a zero covid policy. so, we can't forget researchers, labs, they need to be funded. they have to be funded so that they can plan ahead and do the work. >> oh no, it's not just the united states but it's massachusetts on that biomedical research. with the chips act, we appropriated authorized for the chips, we didn't appropriate for the science part of that bill. we'll have to continue to appropriate the money we authorize and ships in science for biomedical research. i assume you'll be committed. that mr. dimon, last 30 seconds, a previous member of this panel -- relative to working class families, didn't give you a chance to respond. as a courtesy, do you want to respond for the last 30 seconds? >> we all do -- try to help our communities, lifting up impoverished communities, supporting things like the low income tax credit, minimum wage,
is chips act, so i'm indebted -- most of us care about our employees more than anybody else in our communities. hopefully we demonstrated that today. >> madam chair, i yield back. >> thank you very much. to our witnesses today, we're very appreciative for the time that you have spent. and we certainly appreciate your patience, this is difficult work but as you know we have the responsibility for oversight, investigation, protecting our consumers, and we do that with regulation, and so having said all of that of course there are concerns there's disagreements that that's how democracy works. so, let me just say, thank you for the time that you have spent here today. thank you for the way that you have responded to our concerns, our questions, and of course we have a lot of
work that we must continue as we interact with each other to do the people's business. so, i'd like a thank you for all of your testimony today. and i conclude, i do want to note for the record, my somewhat concerned that despite providing some of you, or all of you are invitation with questions, well in advance at uruguay asked on july 1st, more than 50 days ago that our witnesses fully responded to the questions in their testimony. i fully expect that those that did not will provide a set of responses within the next week. so, we can include those in the hearing record. without objection, all members will have five legislative days. in which to submit
additional written questions to the witnesses, to the chair, which will be reported to the witnesses for their response. i ask our witnesses to please respond as promptly as you're able. so, without objection, all members who have by legislative days within which to submit extraneous material to the chair or inclusion in the record. with that, again, my sincere thanks for the time that you've spent and the patience you've demonstrated. this hearing is adjourned. thank you.
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