on sundays, book tv brings the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more, including charter communications. >> charger is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers, and we are just getting started. building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. >> charter communications along with these television companies supports c-span2 as a public service. welcome everyone to the 38th annual san antonio book festival. you to the central library for helping us present this day and thank to the hon. haute family for sponsoring this venue. we encourage to share your experience today on social media and tag the essay book fest.

all events in venue are being recorded by c-span book tv, so that means we have to on our best behavior. please your cell phones and flash photography is not permitted. book sales and signings will take place after the session ends at the nowhere book shop tent outside in the festival marketplace. please support your local and our official independent bookseller by buying your books here. the festival also our author, dr. ben johnson will be available at the book tent signing. and i'll remind you that the end so i am deborah omar. while a german i'm with the san

antonio community archive and museum and. it is my pleasure to be in community with dr. benjamin heber, the author of powerful new book texas an american. this book challenges us to look beyond the familiar myths of texas. beyond the alamo, beyond the oil wells, the cowboy boots, and to listen to the full complicated course of voices that have shaped this place and that includes black texans, whose stories has been are central to understanding not just texas, but america itself. so, ben you open the book by literally burying or steven

austin. so let me start there. why this book and why now? and and. well, okay. okay, so start with that. so yes, i'm obviously not the first person to write a history of texas from way back when up to the present. and i'm certainly benefit from the existence of a rich of literature and lots of institutions like say camp that are devoted to telling our past and all of its in all of its many aspects. one of the things that's always set a little with me is the extent which texans like to think of themselves being so unique and so that we're walled off the rest of larger experiences. so i did want to write an account of texas history that thinks a lot about the connections between, texas and other places going both ways. so what happens when people the idea that instead of kings and

queens should have presidents and prime ministers whether that's an germany and they lose their efforts to do that so a lot of germans come to texas or whether that's mexico and latin america. so you get the birth of mexican, mexican independence. but also thinking about the that texas has shaped the rest of the right. the subtitle of this book is an american history. so thinking things like whole foods, right, which starts in austin. i was a young child in a room that's that's much smaller than this. and up changing the way that people eat retail, groceries and retail groceries across the across the country. and do open up, as you point out, with this bizarre funeral for steve in austin, which i won't give away. but a twist. there's a twist the story and that's meant to invoke the sense that i think we all have is that there's a classic kind of story about texas history that runs from the 1820s when people like

when people with last names like johnson show up here and maybe ends kind of with the oil boom of about 1900 and there's lots of interesting things in that history. i still love going to the alamo and seeing how it's gets how it's presented and how that changes. but that kind of focus on this long 19th century cuts out a lot of. what came before it cuts out a lot of complexity of indigenous and mexican history and really does short to the texans through the modern texans right, where most of us live and and suburbs and, you know, maybe some of us still ride horses. we also go to public libraries and book festivals and, think and read about the world. so kind of answer this question, but perhaps you want to share a little more what unfinished or in the texas stories that we've already heard. yeah. so part of it is the you know, is the temporal focus that i was

that i was just saying. right. and i want you know, we had a 20th century in texas. it was a 100 years long. there's interesting things, too. there's interesting things to be said. there's interesting things to be said about that. you know, i kind of in some ways push back against this idea that texas so special and distinct but in other ways i kind of embrace it and point out to other stories. so i mentioned some of the business stories that come out of modern texas with places like whole foods or compact computers. the dallas cowboys are really the pioneer of as a sports franchise of kind of bringing together classic sports with madison avenue advertising using and branding and merchandizing. and then there are all kinds of questions of equality and political movements that come out of texas, including roads to the two most important supreme court cases, sexuality and reproduction that came out of

texas. but it's like have the sense of what texas history is about. so all these things in texas that actually happened in texas are somehow not a part of that texas history. so i kind of want to blow up that container, texas history a little bit. and you do a great job. i my work is around the american history that looked at through a lens of african descendants who you will hear a lot about from this discussion. but to discuss the book is amazing and bringing out, as dr. johnson said the indigenous story, the mexican-american story we heard if you were here for the panel before, remember texas was new spain and then it was mexico before it was even texas. so thank you for that. so you make the case that texas is central to african american history. can walk us through how this state has shaped black political

life resisting chance and culture in ways that go well beyond the 19th of june. right. yeah. although juneteenth is has got to be definitely has to be in there. i you can start off with the snapshot of texas today, right. there are more black officeholders in texas and there are in any other state. and when social survey firms and economic development firms do surveys of qualities of life and measure things like. life expectancy, family income and health outcomes often if you look if you look at those lists, they rank you know, say the top ten best places for black to live today. and a lot of those places turn out to be suburbs of houston, suburbs of dallas. so even though the kind of classic stories of texas history mostly involve white as the protagonist, it's obviously to

be an important place by the 21st century to americans more generally. and, you know, one of the ways you see that as to jake's right charismatic kind of advocate of the prosperity gospel starts off, does really well in west virginia, most of his audience are, you know, middle, middle class black folks. and he looks around for places to move and to start his congregation. and it's not chicago it's not los angeles. it's not new york. comes down to suburban dallas or suburban atlanta. right. so former confederate former slave states. really interesting, a little bit counterintuitive going back. i don't want to go on too long but you know. go ahead. okay. you know going back i think we all need to understand texas a huge engine for the institution of slavery in the 19th century. by the time you get to 1861 and texas joins the confederacy out of every three people who live in the state are enslaved

people. the richest economically and most powerful politically, citizens of the republic and then later in the state of texas, gain their wealth through cotton, agriculture and they weren't doing the manual labor themselves. right. just let's just say that at the same time, it's very interesting. you have a with mexico, which you may be aware of in the news somewhat. it's in the news somewhat recently. we usually the story of that is people crossing from south to north. if you look at the institution of slavery, as you well know, and as your museum is going do a great job of presenting to a wide public, there's a whole story of people going from north to south, right. and they're doing what people have always done or always hoped to do when they cross borders. right. which to open up possibilities of, freedom and security for themselves so that they're denied that they're denied when they're you know where they live. if you go ahead to after the war, i think texas is a very

interesting place after the civil war. texas is a very interesting for pioneers efforts by white farmers and black farmers to actually cooperate politically against some of the economic interests that were creating so much adversity for. so the biggest mobilization, political mobilization of black people in this country until the civil rights movement and the populist party, the 1890s and they work in cooperation with with white populists to to a degree that was, you know, difficult find elsewhere elsewhere in the country. and then i think, you know, we can add a couple a couple more things. i think, you know, we have the sense today, right, in american society. sure. like there's a line between black and white that is still fraud and complicated in all kinds of ways. but it's not a society where there's just two groups. right. it's where these groups coexist with with hispanics or latinos,

indigenous people with all kinds of european and asian migrants. and you you start see that in texas before you see and in other states with significant populations. right. because of our deep connections and connections with with mexico. and then finally i think if you look at if you look at the era of civil rights, you the kind of big clashes between the jim order and the southern black civil rights movement and its many allies of people of all walks, of life. you know, we think of those happening in mississippi and alabama and know that's true. the texas political decides to avoid the course of massive resistance to civil rights that other southern states took. but a lot of the supreme court cases that create basis for the civil legal revolution come out of texas. right. so the whites only primary is thrown down in a case from el paso and the houston i'm from

houston. the houston chapter has this kind of glorious history right. of cases that got protection of the laws for criminal defendants and then that end up becoming important precedent for the brown versus board of education decision. so by the time you get to the 1970s probably the most prominent texan on the national stage, least after lbj dies, is barbara jordan, who was my congressional representative from. and it's just really striking and played a key role in the of the nixon administration after watergate. so i kind of use story to say well how did you know how did this magnificent orator become the face of you know, become the face of texas by the 1970s? so let's go back from the 1970s to the texas revolution. the book prior was called holy ground. and we're going to talk about

the texas revolution as holy ground. do we need to rethink what really motivated that rebellion was slavery a part of the break from. mexico. okay, is a really subtle question here. i feel like if that's holy, i feel like i'm about to be branded a right now. i was know like all big complicated. there are many participants. many people have a range of motives. you know, there are very few things in that you can say, like there's one cause. however it is very difficult to envision texas revolution happening outside the context of slavery and outside the context of the abolition movement, both the united states and the larger english speaking world. and in mexico and the large, larger spanish speaking world. so what really starts to colonists like white, white

american colonists like stephen of austin, at odds with mexican government in the 1830s? is that slavery had been more or less declared in the nation of mexico as a whole and they kind of had a carve out for texas that allowed you to do things like say someone had a contract to work for you for 99 years or something like that, right? so slavery and all but in all but name and the mexican government alarmed at how many white americans are coming, they become anti-slavery mexicans who are very strong. object to the institution of slavery, start to pass measures that restrict the ability of to come with their property, including their their human property. and this throws the whole economy of texas and the whole economic future, texas, into turmoil. so you have people like steven f austin who doesn't necessarily

you he's not a wild enthusiast for slavery but he's a wild enthusiast for making money and for being powerful and for having more people moving into texas and lifting its economy and making its real estate valuable. and he's very clear, like all of them, that if slavery goes away, that whole project is is thrown into jeopardy. and by the time the fighting breaks out in 1835 and 1836, you know, for very reasons, but nonetheless, it was a real promise of the mexican army. santa ana are promising emancipation of enslaved people in texas. enslaved people flee texas and lines to the mexican lines to to gain their freedom. so it has a lot to with the texas revolution. i know this is being televised. i may get in trouble with this. it's not so controversial. think among professional historians at all to say this and i guess i would say the is is that if you look at the constitution of the republic of texas right as we know texas

wins the revolutions is wildly improbable story where we i mean my ancestors were involved to write you know not only defeat the mexican armies but capture the head of state of mexico a country that is hundreds of times populous than the province of the province of texas and they write a constitution right for their independent country. what is this? what places constitution have for slavery and for black people it enshrines in the constitution. if you're a slave and you want to emancipate your slaves you have to get an act of congress to do if you're a black person and you're not enslaved, you have to leave the country unless you can get congress, pass a specific piece of legislation allowing one an individual human being to stay in the state. so one historian has called it a starter kit for the confederacy and it's arguably the most aggressive slave state on planet earth in terms of using the of the law and of the system to

maintain the of slavery. that was not accident. right. that didn't happen by accident. nobody made them do that. these were the architects of the revolution. and so as i go back, your question, it's very hard to think of the texas revolution happening outside context of slavery. so just a fun fact. i'm a historian nor nor on that team at faking it. there are wonderful spartan than me. but if you didn't know steven austin. i believe it was $12.77 per acre. that of land that he encouraged people to come and get and in the 300, how many of all have heard of the 300? moses austin 300. great. so just a few. the old hundred. the old 300.

so for every enslaved person in that was brought into the province of texas the family received a 80 acres that is zero. so it doesn't take a rocket scientist then to figure out why a third of the people in texas enslaved. well, there you go. if i'm going to get 80 acres of land for every enslaved person that i'm going to bring, i would probably go, i'm going start looking how many then can i enslaved bring to get more land? that's easier than having children. because you also got land for having for your children and for your wife. okay. i digress you got it? yeah. thank you for listening back, ben. so this book doesn't just like you didn't flinch when you shared story of the revolution.

you tell hard truths about slavery and violence how do you approach that kind honesty, knowing could provoke backlash. how do you keep people in the converse session rather than shutting them down? yeah, that's i mean, that to me was the big of writing the book. and more than like sweating the details and facts and where i was going to find research, you know, i spent so much of my time and energy trying to figure out, like, how do you engage these stories and not just i mean, i feel like so much of this country, like on the big public stage and in people's private lives, is as come to the point where we all have to decide what side we're on. right. and my fear is that i write this book, someone reads are like, oh, i'm on the critical side, right? i'm on the liberal side like this. and someone else picks it up and like, oh god, i'm on the conservative side. i'm on the, you know, team texan side. i don't want to listen to this stuff. so i'm trying really hard to avoid that. we'll see if i succeed i think

the things i tried do to try to do to avoid that are telling specific stories vividly told about people. before i some wider generalization right narrating emancipation meant. through the voices and the words people who lived in enslavement and experience juneteenth in emancipation not talking about racial violence, lynching in terms of numbers, but giving a very vivid it was incredibly disturbing to write. i hope it's incredibly disturbing to read account of something like the lynching of jesse washington in waco in 1916 and only after that specific detail i was very conscious to try not to make some statement about racism or white supremacy. right. these kind abstract categories. so people can just think about what it was like to be in that scene or what it was like to be in that person. i think most people, you know, my experiences, people respect

another human being who's a who's in front of them. right. so if you can kind of disarm them that way, you know, secondly, i try to show a lot of internal complexity. right. and all sorts of groups. so in the civil war chapter, you have hispanic unionists, you have hispanic slave owners, you have hispanic you have hispanic confederates. you have all different kinds of white people in the story. and we're always like doing super bad things in every chapter. i try to do a fair job of telling the history of conservatism right in its connection, particularly to evangelical christianity and forms of and other forms of christianity. so my hope is that all readers will see something of themselves in their and you know, i think we all have to grow up and take our medicine and, you know, should face the dark chapters of our history. but they're not the only stories about taxes are worth telling.

and, you know, hopefully there are some other ones in there, too. well, there are some other ones in there, but i found it a great read. even so, i love history. but even if you're not a big lover history, it's an easy book to read you. don't like. you're getting armed with facts because. you are reading the stories of people and it will make you think and depending upon you stand you may think something different than someone else, but it's okay because we can heal from something that we don't face. right? so whether the story is good, bad or indifferent, it'll this gets us talking. and then we can get to a place of healing. so made such a strong case, texas is central to black history, but that's not how most people think about texas. why do you think the story have been so overlooked and or

erased? yeah, i mean, i think some of it is there such a strong plot line to texas history and it's kind of classic incarnation. i can't believe. haven't mentioned the seventh grade texas history class. right. who here in this room is better than a seventh grade texas history? okay. yeah. coach, what was coach's name? right. okay, there's that. you know, this was definitely in some ways for me this process was like i kept having ptsd kind of flashback stuff to my seventh grade texas history classes. some of this, the classic story of texas history just doesn't revolve around black people at all. and i think particularly the celebration of the texas revolution, it just really awkward like why are a third of the people who live the state? black well, it's because of slavery, and that doesn't fit well with the story of the revolution. and as a as this great birth of freedom, right it at least makes it a complicated. but it's also the case that like other black history, has been actively suppressed by people in power, by white and institutions. and texas history.

and so to me, one of the most enjoyable chapters to write is the 1936 is about the kind of creation, the memory of texans right. a lot of ways, texas history is kind of a character in this book. and so in 1936, there's this huge party, right? the centennial of texas independence it's what turned park into dallas if you all know that and to the modern fair and you know there are millions of people who visit exposition halls and all these stories of texas history that are taught there. and if you had gone in 1936, somewhat surprisingly, there was this incredible thing. it was about 5000 square feet. it was called the hall of -- life. it was the brainchild, a maceo smith, a civil rights activist and a dallas and a dallas businessman. and it tells a story of, black history and of black people in the creation of texas from the beginning to the creation of to the creation of modern texas as

near as i can. and some wonderful murals that i talk about that accompanied that and guy named w.e.b. dubois, who was one of the founders of the acp and one of the most important historians in american history writes a whole pamphlet on the history black texans. right. so this is someone he wasn't from texas. he was from massachusetts, but someone who really recognized how important texas was to was to black history and who here has been to the whole of -- life. and fair park. okay, it's a trick question. nobody has because they bulldozed it a month after the festival right. it's the first the only major building immediately destroyed. and the reason was that it wildly controversial a jim crow state to have this kind depiction of black of black history and the people running the fair did not want the black they thought it was a threat to the social order of jim to have

black people presented as important players in texas and you know in a dignified and a dignified fashion. so some of what comes down us you know is the product of past erasures, past fights over history. and so i'm not from texas and was a story that didn't know i know a lot about texas history, so i found that really fascinating. thank you for sharing that story, everyone else. but there's more to in the book. you got to get book. so you point to signs of change organizations like our say can knew historical markers a different kind of storytelling emerging but there's also backlash. are we at a turning or just seeing another chapter in this struggle over gets to define texas? yeah, that's a question i think

a lot of people involved texas history are asking themselves some some version of that you know i do see in the 20 years a strong move to, a more pluralistic and, inclusive accounts of texas history in public. you know, and i think of the rise say can and mockery the mexican-american civil rights institute here in san antonio is signs of that. i've also been struck even in the last few years, places like waco hillsborough, anderson county, presidio county have approved historical markers about terrible instances of racial violence in their past. right. these not these are not liberal places. right. at all. so i think lot of texans and a lot of white texans are more willing to to face their past honestly than they have than they've been. but now, you're exactly right. the backlash now is really is really ferocious, as i suspect everyone in this room may know. several years ago, the legislature, a bill that

severely seeks to severely restrict what be taught in texas history, banning the use of some concepts, banning the use of some particular or of some particular readings. there's similar legislation that would apply to the college and university that's currently being that's currently being debated and i think even the actions of the federal government in the last couple weeks are really telling on this count. i think everyone in this room should be and everyone watching this should be absolute clear headed about what we're seeing in terms of efforts to erase honest history to the histories and remove books about the histories or even existence of gay people, trans people. now maya angelou has been removed from from military institutions, but you can still find hitler's mein kampf and those places this is straight out of the authoritarian. this is straight out of the authoritarian. this is what authoritarians do

they try to control the that people know so that they don't have a sense of so that they don't have a sense of possibility. and so they can't look the past for inspiration, the continuation of democracy. and we're seeing that in the united states a whole. and we're seeing that with respect, texas history in particular. wow. so oh, we're right on borrowed. timing is unbelievable. it's amazing. so thank you, ben. we've a lot of ground, the known and then the overlooked, triumphant and the painful. as you said, the story isn't over. now we want to bring all into the conversation so what questions, reflections would you like share? and we have someone with a like of. we have a question the back

several. i thank you so much i really appreciate the presentation i'm not from texas as you could probably from my accent, but i'm a i love history. i studied a lot of history and in this critical time that we're facing one of the things as a former educator. well, one of the things that i am worried about and i'm asking in terms of what would you suggest in terms of what actions can be taken to sort of preserve, i think, history so critical and to speak up without feeling like you're going to be to a gulag or something because you say, you know, true history to be presented. what is your take in terms of what we can do as like, you know, the honest everyday person to be able to go ahead and still speak our truth without, feeling

like, oh, we're going be, you know, imprisoned if, you will or people are going to put us for that. what are some of your, you know, thoughts and ideas in terms of, again, what we could do as individuals to be able to stand up to the truth of history? yeah, i'd welcome. your thoughts on this, too. oh, i have some. okay, so at sake sacrum and like every institution in san antonio that has a racial or cultural identifier on it, our funding has been stripped from the national endowment for humanities. the institute of museum and library science. there is a proposed bill at that texas house bill 4468 that will restrict local, municipal salaries for supporting these initiatives and commitments. so the city of san antonio has a

culturally specific grant that those organizations say kim, where elegy go to get. so one of the things you can do is support organizations like fe can we are the keepers of the community stories and thankfully don't get a lot of our funding from the government but we do get some our film series which is very popular that funding came from the national endowment for humanity. so it's now gone, the film series. so we're committed to doing so. we need your help. so that's one thing support organizations like that because as long as we're around, our history will be around like they can't come to say cam and say you need to remove those books. but what they try to do is say fund you so you can't operate.

yeah, i mean, i to add to that i think, you know supporting all kinds of public institutions, public libraries and not letting a small group of people or it's often one person who's responsible for complaining about the existence of certain and having them pulled. so don't let those people get away with speaking for a wider public of what you you are also member and then i think you know particularly if you're an educator of any sort like your discipline and training and craft has a set of rules right? like being a medical doctor and swearing hippocratic oath that you're honor bound as a professional to follow in terms of intellectual and how you and how you teach things. and you know, i hope people stick to that sense of of ethics and fairness even when they're under even when they're under a lot of pressure from above not to do this. and i take the point, you know, that can be it can be kind of scary. but, you know, my experience is people want a certain most the

students who come into my classes and just people around the country i go talk like they want to in truth. right. they want to they want to learn the truth, their past. and they want their children to learn the truth about the past. so maybe we have more allies than we might think. and the last thing i'll say is v an educated voter and b of that shows up at the polls. i think. hi. thank you, mr. johnson and deborah, do you do you believe america has already turned a blind eye to returning to days of slavery for for economic, moral reasons? with everything that's going on, we have human trafficking, we have sexual trafficking. we have different forms of slavery that's supposed when black people pick cotton. do you think we've already a blind eye to that, to returning to the days of slavery?

okay. i guess we're having a really serious question. nothing but really serious questions today. yeah. i mean, i think the you know it used to be, i suspect many of us i was taught that there's such like there's this thing slavery which like sits over here and it's totally different from the rest of society and the rest of work. right. and a way that's how the abolitionists succeeded, framing it as a peculiar institute version of something that was really different. right but then there are all kinds of highly coerced and unfree labor that don't necessarily involve a person that actually owned or their descendants actually actually being so human trafficking or people who have no rights. and the society in which they're actually economically, culturally a part of, you know, can be likened to slavery or at least at least to unfree labor. i mean teddy roosevelt gave this great speech in the teens talking about immigration and

americanization and saying that the country today it's no more right today to the immigrant as only an industrial asset and as a human being than it was 60 years ago to treat as he in his language, the black man as only an industrial asset and not as a human being. so he making exactly the analogy that the that the questioner is making. i think we have another question. could you comment on more modern you're from houston and those oil men more like magic gold dozers finding it and how much control they have now. and when you drive around houston there's so many era buildings and then it looks like maybe you're ending the book with. the urban cowboy. do you have any comments on the

austin alternative to silicon valley? sure. yeah. so i do spend a fair of time in the later chapters of the book trying talk about modern, urban texas. some of the industries that you that you mentioned, you know, many of which are back to the oil industry and the development of the technical capacity and the universities. you geology programs, engineering program teams, engineering companies to build those and particularly kind of urban civilization. texas right. i think we're all the heirs to a history that's very rooted in the countryside. but by the time we get to the 1970s and you have these interesting protests and awesome around the protection of barton springs, right? you you see people kind of coming age in a sense and coming to value the cities that they live in as much as like the ranches or, you know, the wild

western landscape types of the wild western landscapes of big bend. and then, you know, we end up being we're one of the most urbanized states in terms of the percentage of the population that lives in cities. and of course, we have many of the many of the country's largest cities. i think we need a history. we need accounts of our past that that reflect that. thank you. or they're giving me the sign. so i want to thank you all for coming. thank you, ben for this incredible conversation. and dr. johnson is a professor of history at university in chicago in chicago. he went to loyola after being smu for a while and. i am honored because apparently ben said, i want debra moderate. so, oh, my god, i did it. and you said yes, the rest is history. so here we are.

your book reminds us that history just about the past. it's about what we choose to remember or what we choose to and who we choose to include. and as said so eloquently, texas history isn't finished. that means there's room for of us to help tell it fully and more truthfully. thank you all for joining us in this conversation. please keep the conversation.