tv U.S. House of Representatives CSPAN October 8, 2009 5:00pm-7:59pm EDT
an incredibly chilling 911 call on it a horrifying mistake by cops. enter a family's home. somehow the father holding the gun on the intruder but cops think he is the bad guy and shoot him -- imagine what this family was going through. the homeowner survived now suing the cops. we're going to talk to his wife and get a first-hand account of
what happened in the home. that's coming up. also this a 16-year-old boy told to stop wearing hot-pink wigs, makeup, high heels to school. the school says his style is disruptive and caused a couple of fights. he says he was told to dress more manly so he leaves the school. should this school let the boy cross dress or is this kid pushing it too far? want to hear from you, a huge part of the show. call in 1-877-tell-hln's the number. you can e-mail us or text us. just start your message with the word "prime." it's your chance to be heard. welcome once again this is "prime news." again our first story so chilling imagine calling 911 because a guy breaks into your house. you catch hill and somehow have him at gunpoint. you're in the driver's seat. here on the phone with that 911 cops come and shoot you, instead
of the thug. unbelievable. let's bring in our correspondent richelle carey with more details and more of the 911 calls. go ahead. >> the homeowner was shot six times including once in the back and now he's suing the phoenix police department for nearly $6 million in damages. he says that newly released 911 calls reveal what really happened that night. we want to warn you, this is really, really tough stuff to listen to. so, here we go. >> what's the emergency? >> i just heard gunshots through my window. >> is anybody hurt in your house? >> i don't know yet. i have two kids here. >> what's going on, sir?
>> oh, my god. oh, my god. >> sir, what's happening? >> i'm the homeowner, i'm the homeowner. >> all right. in an internal affairs review an officer admitted opening fire without giving a verbal warning. still, the force has cleared him of any wrongdoing. so, there you have it, mike. >> okay. thanks again. it's tough to watch. thankfully he is recovering, still trying to piece his life back together. we want it hear from you and we'll take your calls on this, 1-877-tell-hln. joining me to talk about this tony's wife, leslie and the couple's attorney, michael manning. let's start with your husband, tony, how is he doing, how is he recovering here. >> my husband's never going to recover. he will never not have a full day with no pain.
this has forever changed our life. >> he was shot six times, shot in the back, is that right? >> yes. the first time, he was shot in the back. the second time, he was shot in the hip area. and then he was shot in the forearm and then he was shot three more times while he was on the floor. >> wow. >> uh-huh. >> did you see this unfold, leslie? >> i saw up to the point where -- i left my husband in the room with the intruder, who was later identified as angel cannales. my husband had him secured on the floor, cannales was obeying all of my husband's commands. i left the room very shooken up, obviously. but, i felt secure that my husband had the situation under control. i left to call 911, as well as my husband did.
and waited for the cops to come and save us, for them to remove cannales from our house. and little did we know that our -- who we called to save us would hurt us and change our lives forever. >> okay. so, the police arrive. do you make it very clear to them that your husband is the one with the gun holding the intruder? >> you know, i don't think i could have said any louder, more clear than what i d. i specifically said to the three of them, the first three that came through my backyard, i said, my husband's the one with the gun, my husband's the one with the gun. please don't shoot. i had both my children at my side. the officers went into my house and immediately i heard gunshots fired. and i was literally floored thinking, what happened? i told you, i told you, he was okay. not knowing until seconds later
the police dragged my husband out of our house by the leg that they had just shot him in. my kids and i were witness to my husband's bloody body just laying there. >> couldn't imagine the pain. >> it's horrible. >> leslie, let me ask you, is it okay if i play the 911 where basically your husband is saying good-bye or would you like to avoid that? i'll leave that up to you. >> you know what, it's never easy to hear, but i think this -- it's important for your viewers to hear this. >> okay. here's what -- so, you heard leslie describe it. here it is her husband tony's been shot and at this point, i believe they both think this might be the end. let's listen to that. >> i can't believe this is happening to me. leslie, i love you! i love you! >> did you think that was it, les -- oh, my gosh. >> i did think that was it.
i did think that was it. and it's just horrible, it's horrible. you ask someone to come and help you and come and save you. my husband didn't shoot cannales in the back because he thought that would be the wrong thing to do but unfortunately brian lily didn't have a problem shooting my husband in the back without any commands. >> again, leslie, i'm sorry. >> thank you. >> but i agree you with i think it is important for our viewers because that's the impact this had, obviously brings it home. michael, let me turn to you, as we talk here, isn't that a huge key to your case she clearly told officers my husband has the gun, don't shoot. >> it is key to the case. she, also, told 911, as did tony. everybody in the circle of command here knew it was tony with the gun. more importantly, they go in, even if they don't know, they issued no command. they don't try to calm or defuse the situation. they immediately open fire
without doing anything and shoot the man in the back. >> okay. >> also, they've said that -- the story that was re-created a week later was that tony started moving around with the gun. they couldn't possibly have seen the gun from that position, nor did they have time to see the gun. they just opened fire. >> okay. now phoenix police, they have cleared officer lily of any wrongdoing. i want to read their statement. here's part of it, anyway. unfortunately, after entering the residence, one of the officers mistakenly shot the armed homeowner. the homeowner was then given prompt medical attention. the phoenix police department has been honest and forthright from the very onset of this incident, no attempt has been made to conceal the truth or the facts surrounding it. so, again, michael, noig add to your case as we hear that statement? >> well, i mean, yes. the 911 tape itself, when officer lily says to his supervisor, i fed up, fing shot
the wrong guy, the wrong homeowner and started shooting without any warning the first thing the sergeant says is, don't worry, i've got your back. so, that issue, with respect to the cover-up starts there. >> okay. again a $5.5 million lawsuit. michael, thanks for your time. leslie thanks for your bravery to come on. i know it's difficult but so impactful to hear this, what -- really the horror you guys went through and give your husband tony our best. >> it is. i will. it is, i will, thank you very, very much. >> thanks, leslie. when we come back we'll talk about a former criminal investigator about how this could have happened and also an attorney to look at this case, does it look like a good case for the arambula family and we'll take your calls 1-877-tell-hln.
home intruder enters the house, somehow that man, the dad, gets a gun and corners the intruder. he's got him, the situation seems under control. called 911, we heard from his wife, leslie, saying she told officers my husband has the gun, please don't shoot and ends up the husband, the dad shot six times and now the family is filing a lawsuit. we have our experts with us. we'll take your calls. kioka from massachusetts, your thoughts here? >> caller: the police totally, totally in the wrong. i mean, this is an awful situation so my heart goes out to the family. >> yeah. >> caller: but, i mean, the wife clearly told the police officers that her husband, you know, had the intruder down on the ground and he had the gun. so, i mean, i don't know how it
was, you know, a mistake where the officer shot the guy. it's insane. >> yeah. from what all i'm hearing, i agree you with, let's go to john. i think that's the whole key here. if the wife made it clear her husband' got the gun, has the intruder cornered, doesn't that enough, do you come in gunning, how do you see this? >> right. mike, i was a cop 17 years and i know how hard it's been -- spent almost six years in uniform, so i know first hand how difficult this job can be but what upsets me about this case is the word mistakenly shoot somebody six times. that can't happen. once i can understand that so they've got to look at that and i wouldn't be surprised if you see an agency with higher jurisdiction such as the state level coming back in and taking a look at this case and re-reviewing the actions of this officer because there are several different things i see that are not -- were not policy so how they could clear him on that. one more point, though. >> yeah. >> when it comes down to the case the wife ht gun, the cop had no idea going if the situation didn't change and now the bad guy had the gun.
so, really, we have to take a look at what happened in that room to spark the shooting. >> okay. let's get another call in following really well with this. cynthia in louisiana, your question? >> caller: yes, i can understand if when the police went into the room, why they didn't tell him to drop the gun, that's normal procedure, drop the gun then just take action but just to go in there and go to shooting, it was like you had a field day, you know, and i think that's awful. >> sint yeah, let's go to john with that because officer lily from what we know didn't yell a warning or anything, drop the gun. don't you do that, isn't that proper procedure, john? >> absolutely. that's exactly what one of the aspects i said was we have to take a look what the officer did because a couple things bothered me. another thing is you don't walk into that room. you take cover co using the doorjam and look into the room having your gun pointed out and don't expose yourself so you don't have to hastily shoot somebody. what caused this officer to shoot this guy six times is, again, i can't tell you, i wasn't in that room but that's
going to be the focus of this investigation. >> okay. again, this is the statement from phoenix police, it was ruled officer lily did not violate procedure here's the statement, unfortunately, after entering the residence, one of the officers mistakenly shot the armed homeowner, the homer owner was then given prompt medical attention. phoenix police department has been honest and forthright from the very onset of this incident no. attempt has been made to conceal the facts surrounding it. michelle, it seems they have a good case, i'm talking about the family here, your thoughts. >> sure. they have a very good case. this family did everything right. he had a right to defend his own home, the castle doctrine, a right to defend his wife and two young children and did everything right and held him at gunpoint and this officer, officer lily shot first and asked questions later and they're going to be looking at the training because they have negligent supervision in hiring case and looking at the fact that the police are policing themselves here. i mean, they're the ones looking and saying, oh, okay he did everything right.
so, i agree that certainly this is going to go to a higher level, a state level to review this. >> we're not finished with this one. >> oh, no. >> thanks again. we have to leave it there. michelle, john, as always we appreciate i. coming up shocking new arrests in the brutal massacre of an entire family a small town in illinois, dad, stay-at-home-mom, three kids all savagely beaten to death. first behind bars a former son-in-law and now more folks are joining in who are linked to him, family members, what's the motive, how are they involved?
welcome back. gripping new developments just coming in on the brutal ms. kerf an illinois family. we continually cover this for you, raymond, his wife, ruth, three kids horrifically beaten in the small town in illinois. the first suspect behind bars in this murder former son-in-law, christopher harris, married at
one time to an adult daughter not involved or injured in this. three more arrests, harris's brother, ex-girlfriend and her mother all charged with obstruction of justice, a haunting question, why was this family targeted, innocent kids and how are these folks involved? joining me to talk about it, welcome back ryan denem. lay it out there, who are these people and how are they connected to the accused murderer? >> the accused murderer's brother, jason harris, one of the arrestees also arrested jason harris's fiance. at some point chris harris, the murder suspect actually lived with them nearby to where the killings actually took place, lived with them before the actual killings. also arrested yesterday was jennifer earnest's missouri ther down in sarasota county, florida. >> okay w. cops tailing them, how did they begin to link them in some way, shape, or form to this crime.
>> it's been a hectic week for them. starting last wednesday police began searching the residences of all these people. this kind of culminated when the people were brought in yesterday. they actually talked to sarah duncan in florida yesterday. she went home to work and when she got home she was arrested at her condo on an warrant and a couple minutes later they announced the arrest to the pub glick. >> charged with obstruction of justice, any specifics on that at all? what were police meaning by that? >> well, you know, yeah, obviously a broad law but there are some specifics within the law you can be charged with maybe tampering or concealing evidence, inducing a witness to hide what they know or conspiring to leave the state or hide somebody there. are specifics there we are talking about. >> do you get the feeling it's something after the fact that maybe they didn't know beforehand but they knew after and tried to help conceal? >> well, yeah. if they thought these people were involved in the actual killings, they might have been charged with something else. they are not charged with conspireing with chris harris to kill these people, charged
seemingly oovr the fact type stuff. >> let's clear that up. we don't believe they were involved in the actual attack. >> no. i mean, police don't -- if they thought that and had evidence of that they would have charged them. >> you're right. as we have talked, about we always get back to and i've got it ask you, any more on motive, a former son-in-law still linked up with the adult daughter nicole, i believe the on again/off again relationship, an eight-week old son right. >> motive is hard to cook up here because the family is saying this guy is non-violent person and got along great with the family. obviously they had on again/off again fights but the family says nothing serious and no history of documented abuse. >> we know quickly a 3-year-old was also attacked fighting for survival. how is the 3-year-old doing? >> actually her condition has improved. yesterday the sheriff said she is in fair condition an upgrade from critical and stable last week. >> appreciate it. coming up michael vick and a reality series and i'm okay with it.
welcome back it "prime news" on hln. a teenaged boy showing up to school in women's clothes, high heels, skinny jeans and makeup. they say his pink wig last straw. they say his style is causing disruption breaking school dress code causing a couple fights i believe the school is saying. the teen says if he can't wear what he wants he won't good to school sew left. what do you think of this? we'll take your calls a little bit later. 1-877-tell-hln is the phone number. you know, it's horrible, i think when someone is actually cheering dangerous criminal deadly behavior. this is what we have in western washington state. colton harris moore dubbed the new jesse james without the
murders. 18, accused of stealing and crashing three small planes, a fugitive, a wrap sheet that began when he was 12 and now hailed as a follow can hero? he's got a facebook fan club, more than 3,000 followers. so, are these people going to feel good when he crashes and burns, possibly ends up dead with this dangerous behavior, we're really cheering? we're taking your calls 1-877-tell-hln fast nasts as we lay it out for you. as we talk about this kid learning or teaching himself how to fly and, jackson hole's reporter at the "everett herald" will join uls. starting with john here, the kid is 18. i think a lot of people think wait a minute how is an 18-year-old still running out as a fugitive. >> i'm wearing two hats not only as an ex-cop but also a flight instructor.
let me just say this kid either has number one prior experience in aviation or number two he's working with somebody else. to take off an airplane without any instruction is a feat in and of itself and not kill yourself but to do it three separate times, you know, one time according to authorities he ran out of feel. well, that's a very stressful situation for somebody who has experience flying. forget about somebody who has no experience flying. so, i got to believe this guy either, a, not the suspects and the cops have it right or number two is working with somebody sgloots way the story goes, we'll get jackson in on it, that he went online, read manuals and taught himself to flight. next to impossible is what you're saying. >> well, it is a really a feat, three times to take this air plan off and crash it without killing yourself is a tremendous feat. now unless they take a look at his computer and find out he's got simulators on there to teach you how to fly with a joystick or something, trying it for the first time reading a manual and getting away with three times not killing yourself is
impossible. >> good point. jackson holtz again reporter "everett herald" first off where is this kid right now, still on the run, right, jackson? >> we don't know where he is, a lot of people, including myself, a lot of people in law enforcement want to know where he is. >> do authorities have any rough estimate, wooded areas of washington, any area at all. >> the speculation he landed near granite falls -- and they believe he crashed a plane there and that he then went and burglarized a house and while deputies were investigating that burglary that somebody shot a weapon at the deputies. but, nobody's been found so at this point they can't say for certain until they have good evidence that this was really colton harris-moore but sure looks like it could be him. >> stacey, what do you think's going through this kid's mind, 18, by some, being labeled a follow can hero. you think he is enjoying it, he knows about this, what do you
think is going on here? >> based on everything i've read about him i think he has something we shrinks call conduct disorder, somebody really just leaving for themselves and not worried about other people. so, i don't think he's impressed by the facebook page or cares about the heroics. i think he's out trying to accomplish whatever fun mission he thinks he's on. >> wow. let's talk about some of the things he's accused of. jackson, help us out here, talking about a rap sheet that goes back to when he was 12, right. >> probably before that. we know he caused trouble for his neighbors even before he became a problem for law enforcement. he became something i have been paying attention to at the herald since early 2007, when the cops said he was running -- breaking into vacation homes, sleeping on couches, and running from them, getting away for about six months before he was finally caught and put behind bars in february of 2007. but then, he slipped away from law enforcement actually walking out of a halfway house as part of his juvenile detention in april 2008 and he's been on the run since and since then, he's a
suspect in dozens and dozens of burglaries and then it seems that, in the last few months that things have escalated as he's now suspected of stealing planes, boats, and cars and if this was him up in the woods the other day, he's also suspected of shooting at a deputy. >> okay. when we come back, we're going to hear from his mochl. i know that's what a lot of you are thinking, what does mom say about all, this where is she? you're not going to believe what mom says and we'll also delve into the fact this guy is some foll folk hero with over 3,000 followers on facebook? give me a break. call in, 1-877-tell-hln.
he wasn't challenged enough and he was constantly put down, constant. and he got discouraged. >> all right. there is the mother of colton harris-moore, again the 18-year-old fugitive on the run, a rap sheet a mile long, life of crime began when he was 12 years old. his latest alleged crimes stealing three planes, trying to fly them ends up crashing them talking about expensive planes probably about half million each so. quite the story here. but he's so far been able to elude authorities. we have our experts standing by. let's go to stacey kaiser. psychotherapist. as you hear mom, what do you make of that, the school's fault. >> i feel sorry for the mother
but have to tell you a lot of kids get put down and feel discouraged and don't go steal planes and rob people. what i think is going on, this child has some kind of psychological disorder. he probably has for a long time, his parents didn't know how to control it. and nobody's tried to treat him. he's been arrested. that hasn't done the trick. and he's going to need some serious help. >> okay. let's go back to jackson holtz, as you've studied this guy, what is his upbringing? was there a dad involved? take us back for -- >> sure. what mom has told us and this is according to the mom, that colton's dad when he was 2 and his step-father -- i'm sorry his biological father left him at about 2 years old and his step-father died when colton was still a young boy. and one has to wonder about his upbringing we know pretty much half this young man's life he's been a problem for the law and running from the law.
so just think about the fact he's only 18 and the last two years has been a fugitive from justice running from one place to another and, you know, faces real serious penalties when he's caught. >> does he have any friends, accomplices, what do we know about that? >> well, back in 2007 when he was arrested, he was running with a young man named harley davidson ironwing. harley turned himself in before colt was caught and harley since has been in trouble. harley was actually ard when he was caught stealing from a church safe in one of the small towns near everett. but, as far as i know from mom colt's acting on his own now. i heard your expert, the flight instructor talking and it sounds from the experts i've talked to, as well, that colt probably has somebody who showed him how to fly an airplane if, indeed that's what he's doing. >> yeah. john, how are we going to get the evidence on this guy? i mean, we're talking, i hate to be gross here but there was vomit in the cockpit, i guess you have to examine that and see if you can trace it back to him,
right. >> absolutely. looking for fingerprints and blood dna and other dna that had fallen off this individual as well as other things. this is unfortunately a kid who's entered the criminal justice system and looks like he's trying to outdo himself each time from burglaries, boats, airplanes, this guy is on a junki high and the bigger and better crimes, the more dangerous, the better for them and the 3,000 people i believe are an aphrodisiac to continue. >> let me read from that the facebook fan page, the fan club description. -- without a doubt one of greatest and most notable outlaws to come from an otherwise blank boring area some of the greatest achievements include -- so on and so forth and wraps up with fly, colton, fly. stacey, what do you make of this. >> what i make of it is that, you know, teenagers like drama. they like things that are interesting. if haven't looked at the facebook page. i would imagine it's a lot of young people who are extremists really wrapped up thinking what
he is doing is fun and exciting instead of illegal and dangerous. >> face it, they are not going to remember him if this ends tragically, right? >> not for long, no. >> i know they are making t-shirts that say "mama tried" real quick before we go, jackson, what is the feeling, yes we've got this facebook page. i'm sure a lot of people are concerned this kid is on the loose and doing pretty dangerous things. >> yeah, not only dangerous to himself, because certainly somebody who's breaking into homes and might be firing at deputies, runs the likelihood of being shot himself but, indeed, stealing airplanes runs the risk of hurting himself, somebody on the ground if he crashes or getting in the way of a bigger plane and hurting a lot of people. when i spoke to the sheriff's office yesterday, that's what they said. they're not happy to see the fan pages and other things and colton called a follow can hero. they want to see somebody in custody. >> yeah, that's a bunch of garbage. guys, thanks again. we appreciate it coming up, we want to hear from
you on this one, a teen-aged boy drops out of school because he says he was told to dress more manly wearing a pink wig, makeup, high heels. the school was saying his dress was causing a disruption, fights in class. should he be allowed to dress the way he wants? should the school be able to tell him, tone it down? where is this going to go? your thoughts on it. we'll take your calls at 1-877-tell-hln.
welcome back to "prime news" on hlna. 16-year-old boy told to stop wearing high heels, pink wigs, makeup to school. jonathan escobar says he's not a cross-dresser, just who se. but his school in suburban atlanta has rules about clothing that might be disruptive. the principal says his style has caused school fights. so, just two days into classes at north cobb high school the teen withdrew, dropped out.
says it's because he was told to dress more manly. all right. we'll take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln. joining us to talk about it we have him with us, jonathan escobar joining us now. all right, jonathan. >> hi. >> what happened at school? tell us about it. >> um, pretty much, you know, my first day, people were staring at me then the second day people knew who i was. i mean, it spread like wildfire. and then, i was only in school for three days. the third day, the principal said, you know, you are causing too much of a distraction to the students so they told me to dress more manlyier. i can't no longer express myself. i mean, i'm an artist, this is my art and they told me not to express myself, they told me to dress manlier or do home schooling and if i can't express myself, take it or leave it. >> that was it. once you guys had that exchange, you left the school. they didn't kick you out, you left the school. >> i left the school.
but it's funny, amuses me how they are changing it up, we never got to talk, we never got to compromise. >> let me read their statement and i'll have you respond. this is from the school district. the school was very accommodating and reached out to the student more than once to let him know staff members were available for support even taking steps to ensure his safety such as allowing him to use the restroom in the guidance suite when his style of dress began causing a disruption the school took the proper steps to enforce the dress code. he would be welcomed back tore north cobb high school fe were to change his mind about the dress code. are you working with the school to possibly come back. >> they never kangted me and have never talked to me. >> you are saying they did not reach out to you. >> they have never reached out to me. when i was in school, i'm not going to lie, they were very kind, very respectful. but, you know, they told me to change who i am. i thought it was unfair. there's lesbians in that school who dress like a man. i don't know why it's a big deal
then because i'm a male and i decide to dress this way, it's such a big deal. >> if they -- if you were to converse with them again and they want you to compromise, can you tone it down a little bit? that's just an example. you would listen to that? would you change things a little bit? or not? >> i told them, i told her, i was like, you know, i don't have to wear a wig. i just like to wear sometimes to change my hair style. and she said, no, you know -- i've said, you know, i can dress more simply but i'm an artist and have to express myself. she said, jonathan, dress more manly or no longer dress in opposite sex. >> how did students treat you? was there a disruption? you said some of the students stared at you. what was going on? >> um, everybody was pretty kind. of course the football team, you know, typical. they stared and giggled and stuff. >> was anybody, i mean, you did feel threatened at all. >> oh, never, huh-uh. >> never. >> huh-uh. >> okay. it never got to that point. do you think it was causing a
disruption? did you see fights break out because of your dress and somebody maybe saying something and something trying to defend you? >> um, honestly, i knew coming to georgia from miami it was going to be, you know, a big change but i didn't know how ignorant people were until i really came here. >> these high school kids maybe having problems dealing with that, does it bother you or are you affected when you hear that, hey, these two fought over you, offer that? what are your feelings when you hear that, there might have been a fight or two because of you or what you're wearing? >> i knew that there was a fight because of me. um, i think, you know, fighting is never a solution to a problem. you should always discuss it peacefully. um, that's their decision. it is if it's a fight. >> right. do you think the school should have -- do you think the school should have a line where they can say jonathan you can't cross this. they might tell a young woman
who -- a young girl at the school that might be dressed pro vok that tiffly, hey you are crossing the line mplsts i followed the rules, every single rule. i didn't wear little skirts or told me i couldn't wear them. i told them i'm different from most people. do you have a problem with it? he said, jonathan, you're going to see the guys rules and girls rules and there are no difference between them. and i said perfect. >> a couple other things. we know how you dress. you use the women's bathroom? and if so, why? >> well, if i use the guys' bathroom i get harassed. >> it's a more safety issue for you? >> yeah. i wouldn't want to make other people feel uncomfortable when they're peaing and pee next to me and they get away like i have a virus or something. >> you were going to school in florida. that school there didn't have a problem. >> miami. >> miami, okay. how are your parents taking all this? >> my parents are -- they're
good. they accept me. you know, they're hispanic, very traditional. we butt heads a lot. but they're cool. >> i know you're living with your sister here. >> yes. >> is your sister, are you guys going to work with the school or do you think that relationship is over? you're going to go to another school? or are you going to home school? you've got to get an education. >> i have every right to socialize with other people. we'll see what happens. stay tuned. >> all right. jonathan, thanks for coming on and telling your story. a lot of people, i'm sure, want to bring some phone calls to the table, comments. we have experts standing by. what do you think about this? you've heard jonathan's story. we have a statement how the school reacted. we want to know from you. you know the number, 1-877-tell-hln. ddddddddd
an incredibly chilling 911 call. on it, a horrifying mistake by a cop. the father holds a gun on the intruder. so dad has things well in hand. but the cops show up, and shoot dad. six times. and it's all recorded on the 911 call. >> the homeowner survived. coming up, we're going to speak to his emotional wife about what they went through and about their lawsuit against police. also coming up, a 16-year-old boy told to stop
wearing pink wigs, makeup, high heels to school. the school says it's a disruption, causing school fights. the boy says he was told to dress more manly. so he dropped out. so should the school tell him to stop cross-dressing? or should he be able to push it? we'll take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. you can e-mail us, cnn.com/primenews. or text us at hlntv. it's your chance to be heard. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com welcome back once again. this is "prime news." i'm mike galanos. our first story, it is heartbreaking, chilling. imagine calling 911 because a guy broke into your house. you catch him, you have him at gun point. while you're op the phone with 911 cops come in and shoot you instead of the thugs. unbelievable. we have some of the 911 calls for you. and i'm going to talk to the homeowner's wife. she was in the house when this
all went down. a couple of kids were there as well. that's coming up. first, though, we want to go to "prime news" correspondent richelle carey. >> mike, the homeowner's name is tony. he was shot six times, one time in the back. and now he is suing the phoenix police department for nearly $6 million in damages. and he is saying that the newly released 911 calls that we're talking about, he says that they reveal what really happened that night. these 911 calls are very disturbing, they're very tough to listen to. here's some of them right now.
>> you can hear him trying to plead his case basically. there was an internal affairs review. and in that re sue, officer brian lily admitted opening fire without giving a verbal warning. still, the force has cleared him of any wrongdoing, mike. >> all right. richelle, thanks for that. we're all on the same page here as we move forward, we'll take your calls here at 1-877-tell-hln. last hour we talked to tony's wife, leslie. she was there that night. we talked to her about the emotional 911 call her husband made, which really captured the whole thing. leslie, i know this must be difficult for you. let's start off with your husband, tony. how is he doing? how is he recovering here? >> my husband's never going to recover. he will never not have a full day with no pain.
this is forever changed our life. >> wow. he was shot six times. shot in the back, is that right? >> yes. the first time he was shot in the back. the second time he was shot in the hip area. and then he was shot in the forearm. and then he was shot three more times while he was op the floor. >> wow. did you see this unfold, leslie? >> i saw up to the point where -- i left my husband in the room with the intruder, who was later identified as angel canalas. my husband had him secured on the floor. he was obeying all of my husband's commands. i left the room very shooken up obviously. but i felt secure that my husband had the situation under control. i left to call 911, as well as my husband did.
and waited for the cops to come and save us. for them to remove canalas from our house. and little did we know that our -- who we called to save us would hurt us and change our lives forever. >> so the police arrive. do you make it very clear to them that your husband is the one with the gun holding the intruder? >> you know, i don't think i could have said it any louder, more clearer than what i did. i specifically said to the three of them, the first three that came through my backyard, i said, my husband's the one with the gun. my husband's the one with the gun. please don't shoot. i had both my children at my side. the officers went into my house and immediately i heard gunshots fired. and i was literally floored thinking, what happened? i told you, i told you he was okay. not knowing until seconds later
the police dragged my husband out of our house by the leg that they had just shot him in. my kids and i were witness to my husband's bloody body just laying there. >> i couldn't imagine the pain. >> it's horrible. leslie, let me ask you, is it okay if i play the 911 where basically your husband is saying good-bye? or do you want to avoid that? i'll leave that up to you. >> you know what, it's never easy to hear. but i think this -- it's important for your viewers to hear this. >> so you heard leslie describe it. here it is. her husband, tony's been shot. i believe they both think that this might be the end. let's listen to that. >> did you think that was it --
oh, my gosh. >> i did think that was it. i didn't think that was it. and it's just so horrible. it's horrible. you ask someone to come and help you, to come and save you. my husband didn't shoot canalas in the back because he thought that would be the wrong thing to do. but apparently lilly didn't have any problem shooting my husband in the back without any commands. >> heart-broken wife, saying obviously the pain she went through, not only that night, but now the physical pain her husband, tony's going through. we have our experts with us. as we walk through this one. it's a heartbreaking story. we've got a lawsuit on our hands. the family suing phoenix police for almost $6 million. john is with us, former criminal investigator. and my sell, defense attorney. john, i'll start with you. as you hear this, and obviously we, myself, my viewers, we hear this, and most are going to think, police are wrong. and for the one reason is
because the wife said, my husband's got things under control basically. he has the gun on the intruder. and they shoot anyway. let us in on this one. what's going on with the cops as they show up here is this. >> number one, based on the facts that have been reported so far by the media, there's no doubt about it that this guy broke -- may have broken clear policy. and for the phoenix department -- the police department to clear this guy, remember, there's going to be two investigations here, there's going to be the criminal side and the civil side. the wife is pursuing the civil side. the cops have to pursue the criminal side. i think what you're going to see is the attorney general's office step in. most states have shooting response teams that come in and take a look at the investigation. i think you're going to have someone step in because of the high profile of this case. take a look and redo what the phoenix police did with more of an objective investigation than what was conducted by them. i'm not saying they did anything wrong, but clearly how could you clear somebody that just opened fire as reported without warning
this guy. and again, i want to say this, just because he was not the one with the gun -- he had the gun doesn't mean that was her husband. by the time they talked to the wife and he got upstairs, that situation could have clearly changed. so the cops couldn't go by that. maybe a better description of the husband of what he looked like would have been more apropos than saying he's the guy with the gun. >> well, we're going to take a quick break. we've got calls lined up. we'll talk to michelle about the case itself. does it sound like a case that has merit? you would think so. we want to hear from you have. the number, 1-877-tell-hln.
heartbreaking story. home invasion, intruder breaks in, that man, tony, somehow gets his gun and he ends up getting the intruder cornered. so he's got the situation well in hand. 911 is called. cops show up. leslie told us she told police officers, my husband has the gun, don't shoot. it ends up her husband, not the thug criminal, but her husband is shot. six times. they're filing nearly a $6 million lawsuit. i want to read the phoenix police department's statement. officer brian lilly who did the shooting has been cleared. did not violate procedure. here's the statement. unfortunately after entering the residence, one of the officers mistakenly shot the armed homeowner. the homeowner was given prompt medical attention. the phoenix police department has been honest and forthright from the very onset this incident. let's get to our attorney, michelle, almost a $6 million lawsuit here. family's got a good case, don't they?
>> i think they have a great case. these homeowners did absolutely nothing wrong. officer lilly shot first, asked questions later. in fact, i don't think he asked any questions. he made statements that he screwed up. and it's a really clear case of negligence on behalf of that officer, on behalf of the department. and to add insult to injury, to clear this officer, and say that his use of force was not inappropriate is absolutely outrageous. it really is. >> let's get a call in. tom is with us in wisconsin. tom, your thoughts here? >> caller: yes, i am. >> go ahead, tom. >> caller: i have 39 years of credited service with the police department in wisconsin. we appreciate your service. >> caller: thank you. i've been in several situations like this. but what i would like to say is, the news media not only in this case, but in other cases, they get what they say is facts. and you put it out there. right now, if you listen to your story, this cop came in and shot
this guy down. i'm telling you, i'd like to say that i'm not saying -- i don't know the facts. you don't know all the facts. but this officer, yes, she states that she told him that her husband had the gun. now he's in the backyard. she has no way of telling what went on in that house. did this suspect overpower the man and get his gun? i don't know. but it's a situation that could occur. an officer coming into a room, and in a situation, i'm just putting it out, so you have something to think about -- >> no, go ahead. >> caller: if you come into the room as an officer and somebody has a gun in his hand and that person turns to you and that gun in any way comes up in a threatening manner to you, i as an officer am not going to sit there and say, please put down your gun or put down your gun, if i see that gun coming up or threatening my life or my partner's life, i'm going to fire on that person. >> why not a warning?
why not you go in -- >> caller: okay. mike, you are not in the situation. >> no, i know. >> caller: just put yourself in the situation, you come into a room knowing there's an armed suspect and a gun comes up to you, are you going to tell that person a warning? you might be dead before that comes out of your mouth. >> i hear you. we appreciate your service. and the service of police officers. >> but mike, that's not what happened in this case. >> let me lay that tout there again. in talking to leslie, she told police officers, my husband has the gun. don't shoot. and i still think a warning -- john, let me let you hit it since you're the criminal investigator here. >> i know what that cop is saying. officer lilly didn't get up in the morning saying i want to shoot somebody today. i have been in that situation where you're facing somebody that -- we had an armed robbery one day and i actually faced this guy with, it was an armed robbery alarm. i'm sorry, not armed robbery in progress. i had a shotgun in my hand. i couldn't get someone to listen
to me, to stop moving towards me. this is a very stressful situation for this guy. there's no doubt about it, but if this guy was turning towards him, those shots would not be in his back. >> michelle, real quick, your thoughts? >> that's exactly right. the whole point is, could he see this gun at all? and what could he have done in order to avoid using that excessive force and using the shots. and then there is information that's come out that he continued to shoot him even after he fell on the ground. why are those shots still being thrown off?
time to an adult daughter who was not injured in this. harris' brother, his brother's ex girlfriend and her mother, all three charged with obstruction of justice. the haunting question, why was this family targeted? inseptember kids. how are these folks involved. we welcome back ryan denham. ryan, late it out there. who are these people and how are they connected to the accused murder here? >> the accused murderer's brother, one of the arrestees, and jason harris' fiance, and chris harris, the murder suspect actually lived them nearby where the killings took place, living with them right before the killings. also arrested yesterday was jennifer's mother, sarah duncan in sarasota county, florida. >> were cops tailing them? how did they begin to link them in some way, shape or form to this crime? >> yeah, it's been a hectic week for them.
starting last wednesday, police began searching the residences of all these people. it kind of culminated basically yesterday when these people were brought in early in the morning, actually, they talked to sarah duncan down in florida in the morning. she went to work. when she got home from work, she was arrested at her condo on a warrant. a couple of minutes later they announced the arrest publicly. >> obstruction of justice. any specifics on that at all? what are police meaning by that? >> obviously a broad law. but there are specifics there within the law. that you're charged with maybe tampering or concealing evidence. you can be conspiring to leave the state. or hide somebody. there are some specifics there that we're talking about. >> do you get the feeling that it's something after the fact? that maybe they didn't know beforehand but they knew after and tried to help conceal? >> if they thought these people were involved in the actual killings, they might have been charged with something else. they were not conspireing with chris harris to kill these people.
seemingly it's after the fact type stuff. >> let's clear that up. we don't believe they were involved in the actual attack? >> no. if they thought that, and they had evidence, they would have charged them. >> you're right. ryan, as you and i have talked about this, i've got to ask you, any more on motive. this is a former son-in-law who is still linked up with the adult daughter, nicole. the on again, off again relationship with an 8-month-old son, right? >> the family's all saying, this guy is a nonviolent person, he got along great with the family. obviously he and his ex-wife had on-again, off-again fights. but nothing serious. and no documented history of domestic abuse. >> we know a 3-year-old was also attacked here. fighting for survival. how is the 3-year-old doing? >> actually her condition has improved. yesterday the sheriff said she was now in a fair condition, upgraded from critical and stable last week. coming up, michael vick and a reality series?
welcome back. it's horrible when someone's actually cheered for dangerous criminal behavior. could be deadly behavior. that's what we have in western washington state. kol ton harris moore is dubbed the new jesse james without the murders. as of late he's accused of stealing and crashing three small planes. he's a fugitive. he's got a rap sheet dating back to when he was 12. now he's hailed as a folk hero. has a facebook fan club with more than 3,000 followers. do they feel good when the kid crashes and burns, maybe ends up dead? are they going to cheer that, too? joining us to talk about it, stacy kaiser, our
psychotherapist. also back with us, john lucich, criminal investigator and commercial pilot as we talk about this kid teaching himself how to fly. and the reporter at the everett herald will be joining us as well. is jackson with us? not yet, okay. let's start with john here. john, the kid's 18. i think a lot of people think, wait a minute, how is an 18-year-old outsmarting authorities at this point and still running around as a fugitive? >> not only is an ex-cop, but flight instructor, okay? let me just say this. the this kid either has, number one, prior experience in aviation, or number two, he's working with somebody else. to take off in an airplane without any instruction is a feat in itself and not kill yourself. but to do it three separate times? one time, according to authorities, he ran out of fuel. that's a very investigateful situation for somebody who has experience flying. forget about somebody who has no experience flying. i've got to believe this guy, either, a, not the suspects and the cops got it wrong, or two,
he's working with somebody. >> the way the story goes, we'll get jackson in on it, that he went online, red manuals, and taught himself to fly. next to impossible is what you're saying? >> well, it is a really a feat, three times to take this airplane off and then crash it without killing yourself is a tremendous feat. now, unless they take a look at his computer and find out that he's got simulators on there to teach you how to fly with a joy stick or something, trying it for the first time, reading a manual and getting away with three times not killing yourself is impossible. >> jackson is a reporter, everett herald. first off, where is this kid right now? he's still on the run, right, jacking son? >> i think there are a lot of people, myself included, a lot of people who want to know where kol ton harris-moore is. >> woods of washington? did they pinpoint any area at all? >> the speculation is he landed near grant falls, which is a small town just north of seattle and outside the everest area where our newspaper covers. they believe he crashed a plane
there. and that he then went and burglarized a house. while deputies were investigating that burglary, that somebody shot a weapon at the deputies. but nobody's been found. so at this point they can't say for certain until they have good evidence that this was really colton harris-moore. >> stacy, what do you think is going through this kid's mind? do you think he's enjoying it? what do you think is going on here? >> based on everything i've read about him, he has what we call conduct disorder, who is somebody really just living for themselves and not worried about other people. i don't think he's impressed by the facebook page, doesn't care about the here ro iks. i think he's out to accomplish whatever fun mission he thinks he's on. >> let's talk about some of the things he's accused of. jackson, help us out here. we're talking about a rap sheet that goes back to when he was 12, right? >> probably before that. we know he's caused trouble for his neighbors even before he
became a problem for law enforcement. he became something, i have been paying attention to it at the herald since 2007, when cops said he was breaking into vacation homes and sleeping on couches, getting away for about six months before he was finally caught and put behind bars in february of 2007. but then he slipped away from law enforcement. he actually went out of the halfway house as part of his juvenile detention in april of 2008. he's been on the run since. since then he's a suspect in dozens and dozens of burglaries. and it seems that in the last few months, that things have escalated as he's now suspect of stealing planes, boats and cars. and if this was him up in the woods the other day, he's also suspected of shooting a deputy. >> when we come back, we're going to hear from his mom. i know that's what a lot of you are thinking. what does mom say about all this. where is she. you're not going to believe what mom says. we're also going to delve into the fact that this guy is some folk hero.
the run. kid's got a rap sheet a mile long. life of crime began when he was 12 years old. his latest alleged crimes, stealing three planes, trying to fly them, ends up crashing them. we're talking about expensive planes, probably about a half million each. quite the story here. but he's so far been able to elude authorities. we have our experts standing by. let's go to stacy kaiser, a psychotherapist. stacy, as you hear mom, what do you make of that, it's the school's fault? >> i feel sorry for the mother. but there's lots of kids that get put down and get discouraged and they don't steal planes and rob people. what i think that's going on is this child has some type of psychological disorder. his parents didn't know how to control it. nobody's tried to treat him. he's been arrested. that hasn't done the trick. he's going to need serious help. >> let's go back to jackson. as you studied this guy, what is his upbringing? is there a dad involved? take us back.
>> sure. what mom has told us, and this is according to the mom, that colton's dad died when he was 2, and then his stepfather -- i'm sorry, his biological father left him when he was about 2 years old, then his stepfather died when colton was still a young boy. and one has to wonder about colton's upbringing. for half of this young man's life, he's been a problem with the law and running from the law. think about the fact he's only 18. and for the last two years he's been a fugitive from justice running from one place to another. and, you know, faces real serious penalties hen he's caught. >> does he have any friends, accomplices? >> back in 2007, when he was arrested, he was running with a young man named harley-davidson's ironwing. harley turned himself in before colt was caught. harley has since been in trouble. harley was arrested when he was caught stealing from a church safe. in one of the small towns near
everett. but as far as i know, from mom, colt is acting on his own now. i heard your expert, the flight instructor talking, and it sounds from the experts i've talked to as well that colt probably has somebody who showed him how to fly an airplane, if indeed that's what he's doing. >> john, how are we going to get the evidence on this guy? we're talking -- i hate to be gross here -- but there was vomit in the cockpit. i guess you've got to examine that and see if you can trace it back to him, right? >> absolutely. they'll be taking fingerprints, dna that has fallen off this individual as well as other things. this is unfortunately a kid that has entered the criminal justice sim tem, from burglaries to boats to airplanes. this guy is on a jumpgy high and the bigger and better crimes and more dangerous, the better for him and those 3,000 people i believe are an aphrodisiac for him to continue. >> this is the fan club
description. new jesse james without the murders. without a doubt, one of the greatest and most notable outlaws to come from an orewise blank boring area. it includes kamikaze theft and so on and so forth. stacy, what do you make of this? >> what i make of it is that teenagers like drama, they like things that are interesting. i haven't looked at the facebook page, but i would imagine it's a lot of young people and extremists who are really wrapped up in thinking that what he's doing is fun and exciting instead of illegal and dangerous. >> let's face it, they're not even going to remember him if this ends tragically, right? >> not for long, no. >> i know they're making t-shirts that say, mama tried. real quick before we go. jackson, what is the feeling? yes, we've got this facebook page. i'm sure there's a lot of people concerned that this kid's on the loose and he's doing some pretty dangerous things. >> not only dangerous to himself, because certainly somebody who's breaking into homes and might be firing at
deputies, it runs the likelihood of being shot himself. if he indeed is stealing airplanes, he runs the risk of hurting himself, or hurting someone on the ground if he crashes. when i spoke to the sheriff's office yesterday, that's what they said. they're not happy to see these fan pages and other things and colton being called a folk hero. they want to see somebody in custody. >> that's a bunch of garbage. guys, we appreciate it. coming up, i want to hear from you on this one. a teenage boy drops out of school because he was told to dress more manly. he was wearing a pink wig, makeup, high heels. the school was saying that his dress was causing a disruption, fights in class. so should he be allowed to dress the way he wants? should the school be able to tell him, tone it down? where is this going to go?
welcome back to "prime news" on hln. a 16-year-old boy told to stop wearing high heels, pink wigs, makeup to school. jonathan escobar says he's not a cross-dresser, it's just who he is. but his school in suburb atlanta has rules about clothing that might be disruptive. the principal said his style has caused school fights. just two days into classes at north cobb high school, the teen withdrew, dropped out. says it's because he was told to dress more manly. we'll take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln. joining us to talk about it, we have him with us, jonathan escobar joining us now. hi, jonathan. >> hi. >> what happened at school? tell us about it.
>> pretty much my first day, people were staring at me. then the second day people knew who i was. it spread like wildfire. and then i was only in school for three days. the third day, the principal said, you're causing too much of a distraction to the students. so they told me to dress more manlier. i can't no longer express myself. i mean, i'm an artist. this is my art. and they couldn't let me express myself. they told me to express more manlier or do home schooling. and if i can express myself, take it or leave it. >> that was it? once you had that exchange, you left the school? they didn't kick you out, you left the school? >> i left school. but it amusing me how they're changing it up and saying, oh, we never got to talk. we never got to -- we never got to compromise. >> let me read their statement. i'll have you respond. this is from the school district. the school was very accommodating and reached out to the student more than once to
let him know that staff members were available for support, even taking steps to ensure his safety such as allowing him to use the restroom in the guidance suite. when his style of dress, they took the proper steps to enforce the dress code necessary to maintain a safe and orderly learning environment. he would be welcome back if he were to change his mind about the dress code. are you working with the school to possibly come back, jonathan? >> they never contacted me. they have never talked to me. >> you're saying they did not reach out to you? >> they have never reached out to me. when i was in school, i'm not going to lie, they were very kind, very respectful. but, you know, they told me to change who i am. there are lesbians in that school who dress like a man. i don't know why it's a big deal, because i'm a male and i decided to dress this way, it's such a big deal. >> if you were to converse with them again and they want you to compromise, can you tone it down a little bit? that's just an example. would you listen to that? would you change things a little
bit? or not? >> i told them, i told her, i was like, you know, i don't have to wear a wig. i just like to wear sometimes change my hairstyle. and she said no. you know, i said, you know, i can dress more simply. but i'm an artist and have to express myself. she said, sorry, jonathan, you need to dress more manlier. you can no longer dress as the opposite sex. >> how did students treat you? was there a disruption? you said some of the students stared at you. what was going on? >> everybody was pretty kind. of course, the football team, you know, typical, they stared and giggled and stuff. >> was anybody -- did you feel threatened at all? >> oh, never. >> never got to that point. do you think it was causing a disruption? did you see fights break out because of your dress and somebody maybe saying somebody, and somebody trying to defend you? >> honestly, i knew coming to georgia from miami it would be a big change. but i didn't know how ignorant people were until i came here.
>> these high school kids, maybe having problems dealing with that. does it bother you, or are you affected when you hear that, hey, these two fought over you? or that? what are your feelings when you hear that? that there might have been a fight or two because of you, or what you're wearing? >> i thu that there was a fight because of me. you know, fighting's never a solution to a problem. you should discuss it peacefully. that's their decision if they decided to fight. >> do you think the school should have -- do you think the school should have a line where they can say, jonathan, you can't cross this? because they might tell a young woman, a young girl at the school who might be dressed provocatively, hey, you're crossing a line? >> i followed the rules. i followed every single rule. i didn't wear little skirts, little shorts, jeans with holes in them. they told me i couldn't wear that. i told them when i was enro
enrolling, i'm different from most people, do you have a problem with it? he said, jonathan, there are guys' rules and girls' rules and there are no difference between them. i said >> well, if i use the guys' bathroom i get harassed. >> it's more of a safety issue for you. that's why. >> yeah. i wouldn't want to make other people feel uncomfortable. they look at me and get away as if i have a virus or something. >> so you were going to school in florida, that school there didn't have a problem. >> it's miami. >> it was miami. okay. well, how are your parents taking all this? >> my parents are good. they accept me. you know, they're hispanic, very traditional. we butt heads a lot. but they're cool. >> okay. i know you're living with your sister here. >> yes. >> is your sister, are you guys going to work with the school or do you think that relationship's over? you going to go to another school?
or are you going to home school? what's your next plan. you got to get an education. >> i have every right to socialize with other people. we'll see what happens. stay in tune. >> okay. all right. thanks for coming in. a lot of people i'm sure want -- bringing phone calls to the table, experts standing by. what do you think about this? you have heard jonathan's story. we have the statement how the school reacted. want to hear from you. 1-877-tell hln.
tonight, gut-wrenching teen violence rips through the country. a teenaged boy viciously stomped to death by a murderous mob of fellow teens in chicago. now far away in rustic new hampshire, four teens with completely different backgrounds are accused of brutally stabbing a mother to death and hacking at her daughter with a machete. what in the world is going on with america's teenagers? could it have anything to do with our culture dripping in violence? that's tonight's big issue. and blood-boiling new developments in the michael vick saga. a new tv show is putting the spotlight back on the convicted dog killer. he admitted to taking part in torturing, maiming and murdering
dogs. now b.e.t. wants to focus on his life and document his tough upbringing. he's already back in the nfl making millions. now he's going to be a tv star? whatever happened to making amends for his cruel acts? plus, seismic new insight into the david letterman sexual extortion case. the "new york post" claims david's sexual affair went on long after he was married to his wife. the "post" claims the cbs producer caught the late show legend making out with his live-in girlfriend in his own driveway back in august. if there was a steamy little makeout session, could that have been enough to push joe halderman right over the edge? "issues" starts now. tonight, the sick crisis of violence among our nation's kids. it is not a city problem. it is not a race problem. it is everybody's problem. what is behind the recent twin horrors allegedly carried out by two groups of teens from totally
different worlds? first, the sadistic beating of derrion albert in chicago. you see it right there, an angry mob of teens stormed and battered the 16-year-old boy to death in broad daylight two weeks ago. this entire nightmare obviously captured on video. the painful images too gruesome for the mother of the victim to bear. >> i can't watch it but i want them to see. i want them to know what they're doing. i want them to see what they did to my son because they need to pay for this. it's unfortunate that these are kids doing this, but something's got to be done. somebody's got to step in. >> absolutely right. something has got to be done. if you're inclined to say well, that's life in the inner city for you, stop yourself. let's hop over to rural new hampshire. that's where we are right now. that's where four teenaged boys are accused of breaking into a home sunday with a knife and
machete and stabbing a woman to death. you're looking at that video now. police say they also critically injured her 11-year-old daughter with a ma chete so they could steal jewelry to pawn? tonight's big issue, why all this teen violence? want the answer, just look around you. go to a movie. flip on a video game. channel surf, why don't you. we're a nation dripping in violence. kids cannot avoid violent images if they tried hard. they're being indoctrineated into violent behavior. what can we do about that? we'll debate it right now. straight out to my fantastic expert panel. tom ruskin, former new york city detective investigator. let's go back to tanya acker, blogger for the huffington post. criminal defense attorney bradford cohen and clinical psychiatrist, dr. dale archer.
dr. dale, in the first case, it was a wild out of control chicago mob. in the second case, prosecutors say these four teenaged males entered the home intending to kill the occupants and allegedly proceeded to murder the mom in her bed. officials say their goal was to rob the home with the intention of killing everyone inside. is there any way to explain this kind of sadism we're now seeing in the country and in the city? >> well, there's no doubt that violence has taken on epidemic status. in just a few statistics, 60% of kids have witnessed violence. 60% of kids have been assaulted and 20%, 20% of kids have seen a shooting. so there's no doubt it's an epidemic and there are three reasons why. you alluded to them. one, violence on the internet. two, violence on tv and three, violence in video games. kids are seeing it every single day and teenaged years are tough
enough, always have been, but now that they have the option, kids are thinking you know what, they may have got the best of me but i'm going to get a gun and i'm going to make it even. so it is a real problem and it's got to be addressed and it's got to be addressed now. >> well, here's tonight's big issue. we live in a nation as you just heard from dr. dale, totally addicted to violence. do you wonder how a child could be capable of murder? just take a look around you. violence is everywhere. take a look at this. this is the popular video game, mortal combat. it's one of the countless video games kids get addicted to these days and i use that word addicted very purposefully. here's a clip from the latest installment of "saw." the original was so graphic and gory it was rated nc-17. a few slight edits later it got an r rating and is a huge commercial success. it is dripping with sadistic violence. if you want to know how kids can
become desensitized to brutality, look at this. look at everything like this. we are in a culture that glorifies violence, particularly violence against women, and whenever i say well, let's teach our children peace, people look at me like i'm going to be committed any minute, that i'm crazy. when did the word peace become a dirty word or a kooky word, tanya acker? don't we need to talk about peace? don't we need to at least imagine peace if we're going to try to aim for it? >> i think that at the very least, jane, we should be talking about and imagining something that approaches a civic behavior. this isn't just in video games and in television. we have completely started to glorify very bad behavior. if you look at images, if you look at role models, it is so hard these days to find somebody who exhibits a sort of behavior that people, that we would want to teach our children, behavior
that shows good methods of conflict resolution, behavior that shows how to communicate effectively with people with whom you may disagree. we don't teach that anymore. we don't glorify it. there's no role model out there like that for our kids right now and it's very sad. >> we need to talk solutions. i personally would like to see group therapy for kids starting in middle school. again, people say what are you, crazy. no, i'm not crazy. you could use a 12-step model for group sharing that would give these children an outlet, all children, to share their emotions, to share their frustrations, to learn to talk about being angry and to talk about why they're angry without acting on the anger. that's what therapy is all about. rich kids have access to therapy, but poor kids and high stress, high crime urban areas who may need it the most, they don't have access to therapy. chicago schools have just launched a new plan in a desperate attempt to stop the violence, school officials identifying the most at-risk
children, each of them is now being assigned a mentor and offered counseling as well as a part-time job. tom ruskin, you're a former new york city police detective, you have been out there on the streets. >> right. >> can this work or is it pollyanna? >> i think that you're right on target with some of the ideas but also, schools and other people are missing the warning signs of the kids that they're dealing with. there have been many warning signs with the columbine shooters and other people, plus we have to reinvent the criminal justice system to catch up with these juvenile offenders. >> yeah, well, let me tell you something. yeah, tom ruskin, i'm going to say something a little provocative here. i think the criminal justice system is part of the problem. it's become a big business. >> it is part of the problem. >> we lock up more people than any other country in the world, bradford cohen. and we're institutionalizing these kids and let me tell you something, somebody's making a lot of money off of it.
we're warehousing them. it's totally predictable that they're going to commit a crime. and then -- >> absolutely right. >> we end up warehousing them and somebody makes a lot of money off feeding them and clothing them and there's private prisons these days. we've got an industry of violence. >> and you have hit the nail on the head because the way our system is set up and now everyone's so scared that the kid's going to do something worse so if you get into a schoolyard fight, they immediately send it to the state attorney's office. the state attorney starts actions on these kids, they get sucked into the system and it doesn't make them better. it makes them worse. so you have a kid that may have been just a small-time nothing case and what happens is that kid starts to get worse. he gets sucked into the system, he does 21 days in a juvenile hall, he learns all these stupid things from these other kids. >> he learns how to become a criminal. >> correct. you come in with something that's very small and you leave with a lot of knowledge on a lot of crimes to commit. >> imagine if we took all the
money that we spend locking up, prosecuting, locking up, housing and warehousing these teens who are some of them charged with first degree murder if they kill someone, they end up spending the rest of their lives behind bars. their families shattered. but imagine if we took all that money and tried to stop them from committing that crime in the first place by addressing the underlying issues of problems in the home. the fact that they have no outlet. the fact that they have no knowledge of how to practice nonviolent conflict resolution. more on this teen violence crisis coming right up. and we would like to analyze this with our expert panel. michael vick reportedly inks a reality tv deal. yet another award for this convicted killer. are you kidding me? and then teen violence. it's not just plaguing chicago. it's a crisis affecting our entire country.
i can't believe that i'm here and he's not with me, you know? i can't talk to him. >> that was derrion albert's heartbroken mom. four teenagers, four, charged with beating him to death on a chicago street. sadly, this is a trend. the fbi says the number of juveniles arrested for murder is skyrocketing, up 26% since 2005. now back to my fantastic panel.
this problem has many, many causes and i think it has many, many solutions. we want to talk about some of them. and tanya acker, i'm so sick of hearing the same old solutions. yes, we need better schools. yes, we need security like metal detectors, but we need to start thinking out of the box. that's the most important thing. obviously, the solutions, the old, tired solutions ain't working, tanya. >> absolutely. jane, you raised a really good point in the last segment about the warehousing that we're doing of kids and how they're just sort of going in and out of the system. if we could really come up with a way to capture juvenile offenders and really treat them, to do something more than just say now we're going to lock you up with a whole bunch of really hardened criminals and put you back on the street where you can demonstrate their tactics or if we would really invest in a society and community and saying we want to treat our young offenders in a way that will hopefully provide them some opportunity for rehabilitation, that could really be a first
step. >> jane, my suggestion is revamping not only the school system and the education system, but the criminal justice system and somehow, merging family court or getting rid of family court for juveniles and merging that into the education system, and allowing three steps. first step is where you have warning signs, where you have to monitor a child. the second is an alternate punishment versus incarceration and for serious offender, then treating him like an adult and arresting him for like the murder that we just saw. >> if you take a look at the two cases that we're talking about today, family members of at least one suspect in both cases say there's no way my child could have done this. so we don't know if these children have a history of problems at this point. a mob mentality led to death in chicago. four teenaged boys now charged as adults with first degree murder. if they're convicted, they're going away forever, people. one of their moms say it's not my son.
ditto with the deadly robbery in new hampshire. police believe the new hampshire case premeditated these four young suspects all males, agree to kill anybody who is in the secluded mount vernon home, say cops. this is the victim, a beautiful 42-year-old mom named kimberly cates. her gorgeous 11-year-old daughter, jamie, also hacked. she barely survived. the girl bravely found the strength to call 911 and beg for help. she's now in the hospital. she could be there for a month, trying to recover. again, the father of the one suspect in this case, there's four suspects, but the dad of one says no way is his son a killer. now, let's all -- >> that's part of the problem. >> yeah. >> exactly. >> about these chilling similarities. the most obvious problem, overwhelming violence in each act. both attacks involved teenaged boys. both involved groups of males, we're not talking about girls doing this stuff. this is testosterone and in both cases, a relative of the suspect
says no, it cannot be true, tom ruskin. >> well, first off, women commit crimes the same way boys do. >> not at the same rate. the stats, please, the stats show that the overwhelming majority of violent crime is committed by males. take a look at the fbi statistics. >> i understand. but a lot of times the girls -- >> girls do not go -- >> a lot of times the girls are starting the trouble that eventually their boy friends -- >> i will agree with tom 100%. >> tanya acker, help me out here. did we turn the tables? go ahead. >> there's no question, yes, girls commit crimes, girls beat girls up. we have seen that. but the epidemic of violence that you're seeing in terms of being bloody, being macheteed, girls don't do that. >> sometimes it's not the actual girl. >> look at the stats, men. look at the stats. >> i'm not arguing about the stats. >> this is not about anti-male. this is about the fact that we
have to accept, we have to look at the fact in our country, we are equating masculinity with violence, with all these horrific movies where the man is the hunter and the woman is prey, the "saw" type movies. we are equating masculinity with violence. >> jane, here's the problem with your statistics. they don't show when the act of violence or the act, whatever the crime is, was sometimes motivated behind a fight over a girl or the girl pushes the guy to do something. statistics don't show that. i'm not giving these kids any excuses. certainly not in either of these cases. >> jealousy is no reason to commit a crime. in this case, these -- >> these are far outside. >> jane, let me jump from here for a sec. it is senseless violence but we are seeing it and how do we deal with it? how are we now going as a society to a, you know, punish these people who are responsible or rehabilitate them prior to
them committing this act. these guys, these guys up in new hampshire went in there with a machete. they had full intention of killing both of them. luckily, the daughter survived. >> i would like to see some parenting classes, jane. really, if you look at both these cases, the similarities are the parents say oh, this could never be my kid, it could never happen, and if you look at a lot of violent acts, if you look at the acts that have taken place in california, you know, with the guy who ran to canada, who allegedly murdered the young lady in california, his father, no way could be my son, no way could be -- a lot of parents -- >> it's called my dog doesn't have fleas syndrome. yes, your dog does have fleas. much more to talk about. kids are killing kids. and these are allegations in this particular case. and then, are reality tv fans ready for the michael vick show? the convicted dog killer has reportedly inked a tv deal? in my new book, "i want" i talk about how i fought an addiction to alcohol and got sober 14 years ago. i want to hear your success story.
they need work study programs, they need jobs for our children. they need somewhere for our kids to utilize their idle time. idle time is so much in the devil's worship that he's looking for someone to devour. he just walked down the street and there was a kid right there, target. you know, they had something to do at least four or five hours where they can, you know, utilize that energy they have, their mind, keep it, you know, focused' what's going on in their life instead of being afraid to walk the streets. >> that was a mother from chicago just one of many places where teenaged children are dying at the hands of other teenaged children. back with my fantastic panel. tanya acker, i have to talk
about what our values are as a society, because i think one of the reasons that the kids are angry is underneath anger is sadness and depression, and why are they depressed? well, i do feel that they don't have -- it's a spiritual problem. they don't have the kind of outlets that they need to have a fulfilling life. you know what graffiti is? it's a perversion of the desire to be an artist. i have done stories about kids who have been taken from doing graffiti, they're given some paint and they become artists. you know what rap is? it's a desire to do poetry. but yet, we look at kids today like oh, poetry, painting? if we had -- kids are pack animals. they will travel in packs when they get to be teenagers and they hit puberty. we can give them good packs like orchestras and sports teams, or they will form bad packs which are called gangs. >> absolutely right. what we're seeing with a lot of this violence is that these kids feel powerless. i think this also goes to some of the gender differences.
kw one of the ways that young boys in particular, not exclusively, but in particular, one of the ways in which they try to express their power is through violence. if we can figure out ways or direct energies to rechanneling that, we would be a lot better off. the other thing is we cannot so quickly let these parents off the hook. when we're talking about creating outlets, when we're talking about empowering kids, you know, the parents really bear bigger responsibility. i have friends who are teachers in some really, really tough school districts and they talk about trying to get parents to come out to school meetings and -- >> they won't come out. >> they are absolutely not involved. it's a real responsibility there, too. >> a lot of the parents are young people themselves who haven't worked out their own problems and frankly have no business having kids, because they're not capable of being responsible parents. >> well, the answer is very simple in terms of the first step. look, we have sex education classes. we have classes to just say no to drugs. we need classes about violence,
because violence now is everywhere in the media, and teenaged years have always been a very difficult time but when you throw the option of getting a gun and shooting someone into the mix, it is time to recognize this as a bigger crisis than anything else our young people are facing today. >> and let me tell you, it's not your imagination if you think the violence is getting worse, it is. the fbi says arrests for murders by minors has gone up 26% from the year 2000 to 2007. so this is a cancer on our society. bradford cohen, i will give you the last word. >> i agree with you 100%. just in my business alone i have seen an increase in juvenile violence and you have to look to the parents. when i was a kid, my mom wouldn't let me play violent video games and i turned out pretty good, i think. >> i didn't even have video games when i was a kid. i think i'm dating myself. >> but the thing is that you find yourself, i think these parents find themselves being lazy and letting the kids sit in front of a computer, sending them to a movie because they don't want to engage with the
seismic new insight into the david letterman sexual extortion case. "the new york post" claims david's sexual affair went on long after he was married to his wife. "the post" claims the cbs producer caught the late show legend making out with his live-in girlfriend in his own driveway back in august. if there was a steamy little makeout session, could that have been enough to push joe halderman right over the edge? meantime, we're talking michael vick. he is fresh out of prison and about to be a tv star. the "l.a. times" reports vick is doing, what else, a reality show. this is the very same football
icon who was the mastermind and the money behind a sadistic dog fighting ring. why on earth is he being rewarded with a tv show? what he did to these dogs will give you nightmares. he participated in the beating, shooting, electrocution and drowning of these pit bulls. pit bulls just like this one you see cradled there. and that's when they weren't killed fighting each other to the death. vick tells cbs' "60 minutes" he and his buddies found it thrilling. >> all because of the so-called culture that i thought was right and i thought it was cool and i thought it was, you know, it was fun and it was exciting at the time. it all led to me landing in prison by myself. nobody to talk to but myself. >> who do you blame for all of this? >> i blame me. >> the michael vick project will reportedly air on b.e.t. and
follow vick as he adjusts to life after lockup. it will even film him going back to his house of horrors, his virginia mansion which was a mass graveyard for dozens of dogs. the show is reportedly being funded by vick's own production company. hey, mr. vick, how about donating that money to an animal shelter or some kind of animal cause? a b.e.t. executive defends the show, telling the "l.a. times" there are numerous public figures who have engaged in egregious behavior and have been given a second chance. guess what? michael vick was given a second chance. he stepped out of the big house and he was let right back on to a football field. that's what i call a second chance. straight out to my expert panel. amy palmer, senior editor "in touch." attorney bradford cohen and animal welfare advocate, jane garrison. peta has said people who abuse animals don't deserve to be rewarded. isn't this in essence rewarding him for his bad behavior? >> absolutely, it is, jane. people who torture animals do
not deserve to star in a documentary series. if he were truly remorseful, he wouldn't be doing a documentary on the horrors of dog fighting and then donating all the proceeds to anti-dog fighting campaigns around the country. but that is not what he's interested in. >> we don't know -- hold on. i take exception to that. you don't know what this show is going to be about. you don't know what he's going to say on the show. you don't know if he's going to apologize. >> that is not true. he has actually publicly stated that he is doing this to clean up his image. i wish he cared as much about the dogs as he does about cleaning up his image. >> let me ask you this. hold on. what if he cleaning up his image by being on this show and what if that does good? what if it prevents someone else from doing what he did? >> how does it do good putting your several out there as a role model and saying i'm a role model for kids when actually, he's not dealing with the fundamental issue of the sadism that he exhibited? this show according to published reports is going to focus on strains in his relationship with his fiancee and his kids. it's going to be a blueprint for
kids who are trying to overcome adversity, but where is the humility, where is the making amends? where is the -- >> this to me is absolutely -- i'm sorry. >> i guarantee a portion of this show, he will show himself as a remorseful individual and he is genuinely remorseful. >> a portion is not enough. >> hold on. wait a second. let's get amy palmer in. senior editor, "in touch weekly." i'm seeing this not as some kind of larger amends for his cruelty where he really goes in depth and looks at what he did to these animals, why he did it. i see this as a show about him, about michael vick. >> yeah. this is basically a show about michael vick and hey, listen, i made mistakes and this is the way that i'm going to make myself, my public image, look a lot better than what you guys think of me. let me tell you something what's even more disturbing. b.e.t. is trying to rebrand itself about family values and
uplifting a community. why are you picking michael vick to concentrate on? aren't there so many other more important people that you could do a reality series on that could show african-american men that they have more to strive for, to better themselves? why is michael vick the one who is appointed this? >> we have an african-american president, african-american attorney general, so many african-americans leading our country. my question is where is michael vick's anti-dog fighting ad? he wants to spread the word. well, why don't he does a psa, public service announcement? tons of major athletes are speaking out against dog fighting. check out this peta ad from boxing champ, sugar shane mosley. >> i'm sugar shane mosley for peta. i'm a boxer. i fight for a living. my opponents and i know that when we step into the ring, we choose to be there. and that if we don't come out on top, we can at least walk away. dog fighting isn't like that. dogs don't have a choice. many of them get hurt badly or
are cruelly killed. dog fighting is dirty. it's cruel and it's a loser's game. so join with me and team up with athletes nationwide in the fight against animal cruelty. >> there's a similar psa by heavyweight lamond brewster and tito ortiz is throwing up his fists in defense of animals. the theme of this campaign, i choose to be in the ring, animals don't. i went on the internet, jane garrison, looking for michael vick's psa to fight dog fighting. couldn't find it. >> nope. you're not going to find it. but that's what he should be doing. he should be producing a psa, he should be paying to produce it and to air it, but he is not concerned with that. he's concerned about his public image and let's not forget that michael vick did not stop fighting dogs because he thought it was wrong. he stopped fighting dogs because he got caught. >> look, bradford cohen, i believe in redemption. i believe that d-but not for michael vick. >> no. if he's remorseful -- >> listen, jane --
>> show it. don't just do a tv show. say i'm going to donate the proceeds of that tv show to the humane society or to peta or to fight dog fighting. he has come out with one wishy-washy statement so far that we found on youtube. he's not doing some kind of national campaign that we can find. >> no. >> exactly. he's never said that -- >> hold on. let me just tell you this. >> come on. he's never said -- >> hold on. brad. >> let me just say this. we don't know who he donated to. we don't know what's in the works. >> i assure you he made a big donation, you would know bit. he would make sure you knew about it. >> it's a disgusting thing. we can all agree. >> i will give amy palmer the final word. >> i'm not fighting that. what i am saying is someone at some point needs a second chance. and yes, did he get a second chance -- >> nobody is arguing that. >> at some point you have to forgive somebody. >> if i went to prison, i don't think i would come back here and have "issues with jane velez-mitchell" -- >> you have no idea. you would probably have a book deal. you know how many people came out of prison that have book deals? look at the guys from
"survivor." >> that's different than a reality show on b.e.t. it just is. michael vick, this is totally just him trying to rehash his image. i think it's a shame, i think b.e.t. needs to look at this again. a jaw-dropping twist in the jon and kate divorce saga. has jon hacked his way into kate's personal life? then, it was an apparent lover triangle. was it the spark that led to a plot to blackmail david letterman? ddddddddddd
and let's meet today's winner. mark from jonesboro, arkansas weighing in at 360 pounds. mark said food was consuming his entire life. late at night he would stand in front of the fridge when he wasn't even hungry. last november, he finally started eating right and going to the gym. bravo. he has lost 120 pounds and no longer needs his high blood pressure meds. mark, way to go, dude. for sharing your story, you will get an autographed copy of my new book "i want" plus a chance to win a trip to new york city and visit me on the set of "issues." you are an inspiration to millions out there in america. and now, "top of the block." controversy over the top drama, vicious attacks. it's been one thing after another this week for reality tv
mom and pop, jon and kate gosselin. the soon to be exes have been locked in a furious war of words despite this emotional and much publicized dueling appearances on practically every tv network, the show has lost more than four out of five viewers since these two made their divorce plans public. that makes me think hm, are people sick and tired of these two airing their dirty laundry? of course they are. well, maybe. maybe not. now this latest bombshell has jon hacked into kate's cell phone and bank records. that's what the national enquirer is reporting. we certainly have no independent confirmation of that. jon says it's not true. but hey, the national enquirer did break the john edwards story. but before we tackle that mind boggler, "in touch weekly" senior editor amy palmer joins us. what is the latest on the tmz report that jon invited a camera crew to his kid's birthday party. the two older girls turning 9, i
believe. i thought he banned filming at his house by tlc. >> i think with jon every single minute of the day it's something different. i mean, i don't know where this guy is coming from. i wouldn't be surprised if that was true and i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't true. it might be true tomorrow or it might be not true next week. the guy is totally unpredictable. you know, i happen to agree with kate, after reporting on jon for "in touch weekly" since january, i do think he's been abducted by aliens. i do not know where this guy is coming from anymore. >> well, he himself admitted he went from 32 to 23 and had one of those regressions that men often have when they go single again and was obviously linked with so many different women. but getting back to this whole idea of saying hey, tlc, i don't think it's right to have cameras in the children's face because we're going through a divorce, and then this report that hey, meantime, he's bringing in his own cameras. could that be to videotape the birthday party of his two oldest children, then sell that to the
highest bidder? >> i mean, sure. like i said, anything's possible with him. it seems that it's okay to tape these kids on his terms. he wants to be in control, he wants to be the father of the family, finally, and this is him saying to kate listen, i'm going to take control of these kids, i'm going to take control of this tv life we've created for ourselves. just watch. look what i'm going to do and listen, if he does it, it's really, i mean, he's crossing a huge, huge line here, especially with public opinion. i mean, never mind kate, because it seems he doesn't even care what she thinks anymore but he is so concerned about his public image, this is just out of control. >> it's so ugly. it's really, i think, it's a sign of what happens when you sell your soul to reality tv. thank you so much, amy palmer. please come back soon. love to have you. explosive steamy new details in the david letterman sex extortion scandal. the "new york post" citing sources claims joe halderman, who was accused of blackmailing david letterman, told friends he
caught his live-in girlfriend, stephanie birkitt, making out with letterman in letterman's car in halderman's driveway this past august. the "post" claims that last december, months before that alleged encounter, halderman had also discovered birkitt's diary where she supposedly wrote about her ongoing romantic relationship with david letterman. remember, this is while she's living with halderman. halderman's friend and former colleague, dr. bob arnott, told abc news that halderman tried to break up with birkitt at that time. >> they're going to break up and she convinces him let's stay together. it's over with dave, it's done. in august of '09, just a couple months ago, he sees the two of them in a very passionate embrace at the end of his road and with this, he is furious. he's beside himself. he really believes that he has been played, that joe is the backup guy. and at this point, he's just
enraged. >> while cnn cannot confirm this account, a highly placed source close to letterman does say that birkitt pictured here, was one of the female staffers involved in a sexual relationship with the comedian. top the presses, people. think about the timing of this. letterman got married to regina lasko this past march. the alleged kiss with birkitt was this summer, after march. meantime, letterman's people tell cnn that stephanie birkitt is on paid leave of absence from her job at the late show. stories about her have been banned from the set or stories that she has been banned from the set are not true, according to the sources. so as more evidence of the twisted alleged love triangle comes to light, tonight's big issue, did dave letterman open a can of worms by going to cops? is he perhaps regretting it now? straight out to my fantastic
panel. let's welcome stacy honowitz, florida prosecutor. if, a big if, if the post story is true, do you think letterman knew he had essentially been caught in this kind of ugly triangle, why do you think he went to the cops? do you think he could be having second thoughts at this point? >> well, i think any time any salacious kind of facts come out about you, you might be second-guessing what you did and i think maybe when he went to the police officers originally or to the d.a.'s office, he thought to himself if i nip this in the bud and get this guy arrested, none of these facts are going to come out. unfortunately, that's not the case because you are hearing about all of these escapades that took place at work. >> stacy, he's so sophisticated -- >> what's unfortunate now is you're hearing about certain things that took place between them that really were between consenting adults and the issues that we're hearing about now is, is it really that bad, is it so, so bad because letterman was married at the time and it's an adulterous affair. that's what you're looking at right now.
>> this phase of this scandal is not really about workplace sexual relations, although they're both at work. it's now morphed into something else. it's just more gossipy. dr. dale archer, david letterman is a very sophisticated guy. in fact, he predicted that this was just phase one a couple days ago. do you think he's having regrets today? >> yeah, i think he is, but i think the most important fact here is this was not a one-time occurrence. there were many other women that were involved with david letterman through the years. and i think that it is very important to note, you cannot have a consensual relationship when you have a boss and an employee together, because it's about a power, authority and control. and the employee's always thinking you know what, if i do this, maybe i get a raise, maybe i get a promotion and if i don't, maybe i get fired. so i think -- >> that statement is ridiculous. >> let brad jump in. >> that's a silly statement.
>> no, it's not. >> any boss can't date any of the underlings? >> absolutely not. >> that's the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard of. you have never seen a boss marry a because i have. >> it happens all the time. >> it happens all the time, but what we're asking, brad, is it morally correct? >> it's not morally correct. >> is it morally correct? i don't know because i'm not sitting in his shoes, not sitting in her shoes. >> that's the problem. everybody else complains that this person is getting favoritism or they haven't been able to move up because he's having sex with somebody else. that's when the complaints -- you have two consenting adults, even though he's in a position of authority, doesn't necessarily mean there's sexual harassment in the workplace. >> it doesn't mean it, but it's a very fine line between sexual harassment. and like i said, the woman is always thinking, if i don't do this, what happens to my career? and if i do, what do i get in return for this. >> how do you know what the woman is thinking? >> and what about the woman that didn't have sex, she may be thinking, wow, had i had sex, maybe i would have gotten that
the attorney, you know, wants to make letterman's credibility an issue so he can prove that his client is not guilty of extortion. that means he's going to be disposing other women who worked on the "late show" staff. so when people just reach the glib conclusion that, oh, dave's going to skate because america loves him and he is a likable guy, what i think they're missing is that a lot more may come out. this is a criminal proceeding. dave can't just decide to settle it. >> and that means more dirty laundry likely to come out. you know, today's "new york post" is reporting a bombshell. according to their sources, the alleged extortionist, joe halderman, allegedly spied his rival, david letterman, making
out with his, joe's girlfriend. did he open a big can of works by going to cops with the suspicion that he's being blackmailed. >> you know what happens in criminal cases all the time? the jury stops wondering if the defendant is guilty and starts wondering if the victim is guilty. and you know what? david letterman doesn't need more bad press. he's got a lot of people watching his show now, his numbers are up. let's stop the dirt. >> so you think that the letterman attorneys should pressure the d.a. in this case to come to some agreement out of court? >> as sure as i'm sitting here, matt, they have got to end this. >> stacey honowitz, will this go to trial or will dave push for a settlement? >> well, i think as more facts come out, certainly, he doesn't want to public to know what's going on in the workplace. if he's disposed and it becomes public, everyone's going to know that he not only had sex with her, but there are allegations he's had sex with other women. is there a chance he would say to his lawyer, let's get rid of
this now, let's try to nip it in the bud, yes. the other side to this, very early on, the attorney for the defendant was saying, listen, you're going to see it was not extortion, that he was trying to do a screen play. well, the more that they talk and say he found letterman making out with his girlfriend, it really, really goes into an extortion plot, that it was almost a revenge-type of thing. so i think on that end, they better shut up too. >> and prosecutors say they have tape recordings of joe halderman, the guy you're seeing right there, making demands to david letterman's attorney. but according to halderman's friend and former colleague, they don't have recordings of all three of those meetings. >> so whether the motivation was jealousy or greed, it still is extortion in their eyes. >> in their eyes, it is. but they have just that last session. there were two sessions before that where joe was negotiating with the lawyer. and that's what we don't know
about. >> bradford cohen, criminal defense attorney, the absence of all three -- >> sure. >> recordings, and he may not have been wearing a wire during all three. that's why they don't have all three. could that really damage the case against halderman? >> could it damage it? it's certainly going to raise questions about why they didn't tape the other two, but you're going to have another witness in the room that's going to say, this is what he said. is tape recording great? yes. is it necessary? no. he can still testify as to what was told to him. there's always going to be a question, well, why wasn't this one taped, but this one was taped. and the defense is going to come in and say that. do i think it's damaging to the point that that's a slam dunk, smoking gun? absolutely not. >> you better tell his friend to get off the air, because quite frankly, his friend is on the air saying, was there jealousy, was that the motivation? that's great grounds for an extortion case. i'm mad you're with my girlfriend. >> and that is one good friend. i don't know anybody else who would go on tv when their buddy