tv French Presidential Candidates Face Off in Debate CSPAN May 5, 2017 2:14pm-5:12pm EDT
today by your cable or satellite provider. >> sunday, french voters go to the polls to select the next president. is the second round of voting for president and the two candidates to make it to the runoff are marine le pen of the national front and the centrist former economy minister emmanuel macron. the two debated earlier this week, that's up next here on c-span. >> you label -- you will be able follow this in the translation.
theom selection has given first word to the crown. for we moved what you have to say, after months of campaigning, we are only four days away from the vote and 10 days away from taking office. how are you feeling? >> i have to say i'm very pleased about the way in which the second round runoff vote is leading. candidate of the socialization and brutality. of ournomic ransacking large corporations, major interests sweeping low on our interests. all this run by mr. hollande. yesterday vote , do thatfor mr. macron
with a sense of pride avoid accomplished and the desire of that to continue. i'm the candidate of the people and the canada france as we love it, of its culture, its civilization, its unity. i am the candidate of the nation that protects our jobs, that protects our security of our fellow citizens, our borders, protects us against unfair international competition and the rise of islamic fundamentalism. and of course, the french people macronle to say the real in this benevolence has been replaced by speights, the marketing strategy has been taken over by the socialist it is being replaced with the rounding of elites.
i think it's useful, we see the choices you made in the second round choices that are cynical choices, the use of campaign arguments that are shameful and that reveal perhaps the coldness of the business bankers that you never stopped being. ofhink this period clarification was profoundly useful to the french people to decide. >> mr. macron, would you like to tell us? >> you have shown you are not the candidate of the spirit of yes or the will to have balanced and open democratic debate. thank you for this wonderful demonstration that you've just given us. i wasn't expecting anything -- i'm not going to say you are the real interest, not only in the name of the political party, of the french extreme right, of the whole system has prospered on the anger of the french for so many years. i'm not going to repeat that you claim this heritage because you
have been promoting it since you party,er control of his and over 40 years in this country, we've had le pen's who has been candidates for election. you continued with your career as you do day after day. the question that our citizens have to answer today is do they want the spirit of defeat is you promote, because you promote the spirit of defeatism, you expect -- to our fellow citizens that globalization is too tough, so we're going to withdraw and get out of the euro, we're going to put the walls up. that is the spirit of defeatism in the fight against terrorism, despite all developed countries are facing all democracies are facing this war. you say we are going to withdraw and restore the borders, as if will solve the problem.
france is always succeeded and succeeded in the world, because her language is spoken on all the confidence of the world. france's history of civilization, it's ranks is that it's reputation is global and today, we are the fifth economic power in the world. we are strong in the world and there are a lot of changes that need to be done, and i want to introduce changes, it's the inability of government for 30 years to do so. i have never been president or prime minister, i will do as much as i can to remedy that. ,hese deep changes that i want which led me to resign from the government why was a minister, i intend to implement these reforms so the spirit of conquest will triumph. that's the france i want, that's the france that resembles us. >> we can jump right into the debate with the economy and unemployment rate do you believe that the currently laws are holding back employment and you -- to get rid of the
>> the problem with france for 30 years has been the unemployment rate, we have had mass unemployment for 30 years, the only country in europe that hasn't succeeded in putting an end to this high unemployment -- youth unemployment is very high, and in the face of this, we must of creatingsibility and jobs, to be more agile i want to simplify things. i want simplicity, the right to make mistakes, it's reform but i will introduce this summer. when the government and administration control, you mustn't sanction or false or explain. businesses are the main victims of this. i want to get rid of for self-employed and independent
important social observations, i want the labor law not to be the same, determined by a law which is too rigid. i want to labor law that can revert to agreements at the corporate level, at company level, where branch level. at sector level. a company that can negotiate the majority agreement with the representatives of the employees to reorganize will be in a better position to face economic risks, the competition that is facing. and that's how large companies as they did jobs in this country, because large companies illegally once you have the ability to do that. the pragmatism for small and medium-size enterprises and in the face of economic cycles which are much shorter. >> more flexibility. >> yes. more agility for businesses and security for employees, workers
reforms,d for new reform for unemployment insurance, reform of vocational training to protect people in the middle of these changes. thers. le pen, have used labor market moving forward? >> mr. economy minister or mr. advisor of hollande. >> what is your vision of the labor market? >> for years, you lead hollande's economy with a recipe front employment. >> we aren't candidates for five years. hollandedn't you allow to benefit from your recipes? because your results were very bad. why are you standing for election of the president. hand to implement the policy and that policy was catastrophic.
do, youthe latino helped launch businesses, the employment tax credit, you gave it to large companies, small and medium-sized businesses and wanted to see a lightning of the someculties to give them oxygen. you pretend they didn't exist because you pretend it -- you wanted to -- you didn't want to scrap the posted worker directive, 500,000 jobs that are not available to the french people because they are filled by foreign posted workers who are running or not to, because those who do defraud are as many those who didn't put in place a one-stop shop, administrative arrangements don't -- economic patriotism, that horrifies you. can give any advantage to french companies,
you are against because you are france that subject itself the eu, unfair international and theion industrialists didn't know the number of large corporations all you. who were bornones out -- bought out by large u.s. corporations. series of many with problematic conflict of interest with former bank in which you were that you don't have a national spirit, you don't think in the superior interest of the nation. i will always blame you for that, you are defending private interests, the french people are , there's a lot of hardship and whirlpool. there are companies that are off shoring and is not an anecdote.
these are companies that use old. -- that you sold. 6000 jobs. 6000 jobs lost. >> for three minutes, madame le pen has been explaining her strategy, there isn't one. >> i told you everything. >> was asked ordinary is that your strategy, it is normal for decades, this is an going on. your strategy is quite ugly to to a lot -- is quite simply lie a lot and was told the difficulties, but you don't propose anything. if you observe what's happening in recent years, the charges -- the tax credit for competitiveness benefits -- >> it doesn't benefit for that. >> in my project i propose to made by smalls and middle sized intervals.
i want to cut corporation tax. >> all companies including for the large companies, whereas i give total priority to small businesses, they are the ones who create jobs. >> you are making life easier for big business again. >> its normal where your friends when you have drinks. >> the french deserve better than this. truth on ae the non-insinuations. you say you are very well-informed, you know, reality -- i was not minister when ss is our was sold, and it belongs to a totally private -- >> you were to minister? you told that line from 10,000 people at the debate we had when that question was asked of you. of course you are minister. you are leading all these issues.
and what mr. montebello refused -- the day he was replaced by you, mr. macron, immediately you signed the deed of sale, that's the truth. >> it belongs to a private group called vivendi, we are in the state where we reflect -- we respect private groups. you are making a lot of mistakes , but it doesn't help the country to move on. to sell as ised our. we have a private group which is owned by private capital, looking your files. >> i will find that for you immediately. >> i know the files. next january 15 before parliament. decision, i took the decision to allow the to take a
stake personally. click you are not talking about the same subject. >> the day after he let you graduate, whereas they were giving the sale, that's the reality. that's the reality, why don't you accept it? as we do best, to break up companies. there's a difficulty. >> you are not prepared. >> against the influence of france. we can look at the details as you are mixing the different files up, ss are is in telephony, and in one makes turbines and industrial -- it's not the same -- click you can sell everything but not for the benefit of the national interest. against reforms, you
can shake things up. >> deregulation, etc., that's what you have to do. she wants to talk about the past. today, and i say, is simply for small and medium enterprise, i prefer -- we need to have more pragmatism. we need to have a policy in favor of investments. it's indispensable to fight against unemployment. there is no fatality. you are not proposing anything to fight against unemployment. your knowledge of the file is very approximate. foropose to create jobs sensible people and large companies. >> would like to hear suggestions on something very important to the french people. the working week, it seems like neither of you in your political platform have decided to change the 35 hour working week.
this le pen, you are ok with 35 hours? >> i want negotiations to happen by sector. mr. macron wants negotiation to take waste by company. >> is fratricidal. it's fratricidal negotiation by company is to pit companies -- to companies one against the other. you know full well that in sectors, there will be large companies, that of course, will be able to adjust the working time but not small companies. obviously, they will go under. that's your plan. eat theeight -- the big small. note, for that matter, mr. macron wants to have a lot the
power 10 by executive order. we do not know what is in it. be thee there will scrapping of the indefinite term contract or the roadmap of the eu, and you are ticking the boxes with a great deal of discipline. you are very disciplined in respect to the eu. right oft this out does this outright deregulation behind you, all the socialist ministers who are supporting you . >> i'm waiting for your answer on the 35-hour week.
it's interesting. you are not answering the question. >> you are trying to get us to forget that you are part of a government that made labor even more precarious, did not create new jobs but higher unemployment since you left the government. i see that you refuse to assume responsibility for that. >> i notice once again you do not want to assume that responsibility. i say that obviously, we must radically turn our backs on that policy and have a policy that and that develops small businesses because they are the ones that create jobs in our country. >> your turn to speak. you are not questioning that 35-hour work week? >> was extraordinary as you're not answering the question. you are always talking about the past and about other people.
i'm listening to you. you talk about everything and about nothing. question,wering the and i want to know -- what are small and medium enterprises asking for. they want more visibility. they want -- whatever their size -- i'm not only talking about large groups. the large groups manage this very well. the medium-sized -- from very small to very large businesses, they want more adaptation to economic reality. the construction sector which has two employees does not have the same experience as a digital start up , so we must give them the possibility of negotiating a majority agreement at corporate level. only large companies can do so today. the shipbuilding yards save jobs -- egotiating an agreement
>> you sold them to the italians. >> i did not sell the shipbuilding yard. with thean agreement unions. there was part-time work, and they sat close. >> they were not sold to anyone. i was in the presidential campaign at the time. you can attribute real the sins of the last 30 years. i have been involved in politics for a much shorter time than you. >> it has been a wildest deal was in the offing. >> you have a big problem with industrial issues. do not know the files at all. >> has been a while since this file was on your desk. >> i signed contract for ships to the built in those yards, and they signed those agreements which created more visibility and preserved jobs. that's what i want for other businesses. i am also in favor, notably from
the smallest company, there should be sectorial agreements, a business with two employees does not negotiate corporate tradeents if there are no unions. small retailers, small business the sectorial level that we can negotiate more flexibility of labor laws if we allow people to hire people more easily. our economy needs to be hiring more. >> large and small, not just small companies. >> you are also in favor of sectorial agreements, but we must allow large and small signnies to size -- to these agreements. that is what. the destruction of jobs like in the recession in 2009. >> you assumed it is the employment labor code that creates unemployment. that is a strange vision. it is your policy, the policy of unfair competition such that the
state does not intervene, the big eats the small, the companies go off and seek low-cost workers, as was the case, but i'm offering to tax companies that relocate. they will no longer relocated abroad if they have no benefit to go to a country where wages are very low. if they are taxed when they feel for their products, they will no longer leave because there will be no thought -- no financial interest in it for them. second, they will put in place a sovereign fund that will allow us to intervene in a case such viva that has been broken up by vulture funds. the state duration and private offeringficiency, with
reasonably yield you consider once again that the law of the toughest, the strongest must apply, and it's normal that you break one another up. .> we should push forward there's something which is called the agency for state shareholding, which means the state can invest in a company. the state can invest in a company best increase its share in capital to save a company. >> it is interesting because your great solution -- >> this is a sovereign fund i would entrust to business leaders. >> already exists. the public bank -- >> it's not a bank i want. it's a sovereign fund. trying to you are play with me, the teacher and the pupil, but it's not my thing. >> the country deserves a better
debate. in the case of whirlpool, what you propose is nothing. first of all, you do not respect people. you do not respect people. i heard the anger of people. hours with the employee is where you spend 15 minutes in the parking lot. go on thet even company premises. >> where you were protected from journalists. flex i'm that the employees. that's what it means to respect people. when you were playing to the cameras, i was with the representatives of the employees because i respect them. they understood that you do not propose anything to them. >> they booed you. they said, "out, out." >> you do not propose anything to them. they are angry. if anything, you wish to communicate a statement
proposing the nationalization of whirlpool. >> that it we protected by the state until a virus found. >> that was the mistake mr. hollande made. >> and you went to see them and said that is what globalization is like. >> i'm going to fight for youvestment, fight so that have -- >> you are really not credible on this. do you realize that? >> i am much more credible than you are. >> please, we must push forward. >> i have had a number of victories and a number of failures, but i have always fought. >> victories to protect jobs or to protect companies that are buying each other up and scaling back?
>> if you listen to us for two minutes, we do have -- i have never done what you did the other day, to take advantage of the distress of the workers. >> i never went to hide in a room with trade union representatives. i go and see the workers. to meet with the workers, not to hide in a small room. that's the big difference between us. >> we cannot dwell on this for too long. we cannot hear ourselves think anymore. we need to push forward. there will be other opportunities to come back to the issues that french people face. many french people are expressing their frustration with the current tax system. macron, what mr.
is your position on this? >> i propose making savings in order to cut taxes paid by households and companies. if we do not make any savings, we cannot promise tax cuts. that is a promise that is not credible. that is what marine le pen does, but the people are not that stupid. the state today has a deficit, which is not a good thing for us. i want to make 70 billion euros of savings in order to cut taxes and charges paid by companies to reduce charges paid by businesses, six points down and 10 points lower charges for the minimum wage and to reduce the corporate income tax to 25%. i propose for the household to get rid of the residence tax for ,0% of our fellow citizens
which represents 10 billion euros. i cut the taxes paid by businesses and i cut also what residents pay, and this is my fiscal policy. if growth is better than i expect -- i'm very cautious. i have very cautious one point 8% growth. if we go beyond that, i will reallocate savings to cutting income tax for the benefit of households. >> your suggestion when it comes to the tax system -- is this frustration something you felt when you are visiting people? >> so you are assuming responsibility you did not take part in the major economic decisions? very good, you are a member of a government that generated an additional $35 billion -- 35 euros in additional taxes, but it's not you. it's not you. >> i have never been in charge of that. >> you want to reduce your residence tax.
ok, happy with that, for a small residence tax. you want to increase the social contribution by 15 points for pensioners and workers. one of your advisers said clearly 60% of pensioners will have to pay more. >> we need your response to what mr. macron said. >> what do i do? the wagethree point charges of all those who work. why? because today, when you get your payslip, your gross salary, and then you have your social .ontributions i will reduce those contributions by three points because i want to go as far as i can.
i want universal employment insurance so that everybody can have indemnities if they are unemployed, so i will be getting rid for all workers of their employee, and i will replace it social. paul will have a gain in purchasing power. the rise will be lower. their purchasing power will increase. the 40% of people who have the lowest retirement pensions and pay the lowest rates will pay less than 60% of retirees who an the normal rate will have increase of 1.7 points, and the wealthier for the wealthiest more-- in order to have a
-- a smarter system. there is no magic in finance. i will take the four minutes. all the other retirees -- this rise will be offset by getting rid of the residence tax. >> the residence tax that you are giving with the right hand but taking back with the left hand, but since you are a socialist, you are going to say to state the pace. >> am not saying that. everybody will have an increase in purchasing power except the richest retirees. very significant measures to boost spending power through a reduction of 10% of the first three income tax brackets by increasing the widow was who were
byapped by the socialist making overtime hours free of tax, clear measures for purchasing power, bonuses for employment below 1500 euros, that i financed through imports and not by tax, reduced energy , down 5% because successive hikes are weighing on families because you are going to -- >> no, i'm increasing -- >> the small retirement situation for many of them. it is really terrible. they cannot make and's, and they continue to bear the brunt of additional measures and sacrifices. you said housing benefits were 20 owing to continue to fund
million of these housing benefits. if you reduce that, you see that there are some who will no longer be able to find a home. for the young people, they need to have their housing benefit increased by 25%. you are not really thinking much about the families. by restoring families benefits, family allowance that was cut by the government that you work a member of, the socialist government that reduced that, and to universal child allowance . all the families have had to bear the brunt of all the measures that you took part in .n their budget >> yes, that is the principle of , absolutely. >> i and the candidate of spending power. you are the candidate of the , to buy france, to
break it up. is for sale. everything can be bought. andcan be thought and sold, one of your supporters mentioned you only see human relations in terms of what it brings in, in terms of the dividend that can be derived from that -- that can be derived from that. i believe that giving36, the efforts that are made by associations help to give an additional trimester. otherwise, the 8 million helpers would not be able to bear that cost. the voluntary sector that is often forgotten that is one of the key components of our french
identity. but in my vision, not everything is for sale. is bought.ing not everything is the subject of a financial measure, financial .tatistic >> you are right, france is something quite different, and organization with generous principles, the reverse of everything you represent. it is not your vision of families. it is what your father repeated a few days ago and the constant battle that you have fought in the european parliament, cutting credits for family planning. you're not well-placed to talk about the family. your vision of the family -- i have a question to ask you -- how do you finance all that? >> i will find savings for you immediately. take a look. 9 billion euros a year.
the excise customs duties on average are 6 billion. >> you are less technical than what you seem to indicate. you are not as aware of that. justwe come to savings in a few minutes. let's talk about tax. we have a long list of the generous reforms of madame le .en how is she going to finance all that? how is she going to fund all that? >> it's their money, giving it back to the french people. it is not year that generates that money. it is their money. we give it back to them. >> the european union, immigration, a colossal cost. i have only kept 15 billion per year in savings.
i was very reasonable in my calculations. the social fraud -- >> it's going to stop overnight? as soon as your president stops the cheating, there will be no more tax fraud overnight. wonderful. fantastic. doi will show you what i can . >> i don't want to try, and i don't think the french want to try either with you. >> don't speak on their behalf. >> i'm not speaking on their behalf. >> you need to show a little less arrogance before the election. >> i take the french -- adults. they are adults. >> i don't lie to them. >> you lie to them. have just john up a long list of reforms, and you do not .ay how you will fund them
the day you obtained your 6 billion savings from the eu, we have to pay what we owe the eu. look what the u.k. will do with brexit. from the very beginning it will have to pay between 60 billion and 80 billion euros, so leaving the eu will cost money. about the euro later. but you do not fund what you promised. i want our fellow citizens in regard to the list you have just that come the people who are helping others, the nonprofit -- nization i have told you how i will , and thehe tax-cut lowering of charges. gifts, butng to give somebody will have to pay for your reforms.
you do not say how you are going to fund things. is not open to -- >> return money to french people in the present. taxes, if yout have not cut expenditure, everybody can understand that. >> if you please, will get back to this. either you're going to increase the deficit or increase taxes during your five-year mandate or increase the debt, and it's the future generations, our children, who will pay. >> we will get back to this. .> it's tough, really around inot go
circles. we will come back to this. >> meta-le pen is blaming you for everything that has gone wrong over the last 20 years. >> it is a work of truth and honesty to assume before the french people the results. >> i've assume the responsibility for what i did as a minister. you are attributing things to me which i did not do. you are attributing things to me before i was minister and you are lying. way.all extremists, by the >> you are far ahead. you are insulting your opponent. >> if somebody has been insulting, it has been you. >> i don't think i used the slightest insult. >> when you say i don't respect the body of a woman by comparing referring to --
>> assisted reproductive -- motherhood, it's a lie. i have always been against surrogate motherhood. >> that is endorsed in rants. and act, you are creating such a abroad. it is despicable, in terms of telling the human body. >> i'm against surrogate motherhood completely. when you have a child in france, you prefer not to recognize any rights or that child and i don't believe in that i believe in insi k, less -- i believe generosity. >> let's push forward. >> on against a child being made to suffer. >> well, he can benefit from guardianship.
>> with the child be able to die in the street he will not have any health or she will not have any health. a wonderful society. -- >> your le pen project is not serious. the peopleack to watching. i want to know what advances you want to have in reimbursement by the social security system. mrs. le pen, first of all. >> i want to save the social protection system first off. the reality today is this protection system is in danger. you had in that the goal is to dismantle it in some shape or form. mr. macron, you have made a proposals of reimbursement for eyewear, it's over, but you remain extremely
vague. once again, a lot of savings to be made without reducing the benefit that are granted, notably through progress and the use of digital technology with the unit selling's of medicines. that's not in place. that could be put in place very simply and over and above social protection that is the health care offering. obviously, we are faced with the difficulty of desert of vacation . in many of our areas, sometimes you have to travel with the, 60 alometers in order to find specialist, sometimes for to six months to get an appointment -- 4 to six months to get an appointment.
we do not have enough doctors. we have to find doctors abroad by depriving those countries from what we seek from them. we have to put in place six areas junior doctors in that are deprived. we have to cut taxes for doctors who have retired to encourage them to stay on for a few years. >> more things would be reimbursed. you talked about hearing aids, teeth replacements, and i care. are you saying we are going to get more reimbursed? >> above all, we will ensure the price of medicine drops because if we can cut the cost of medicine, then we can reimburse more. in that case, we will be able to to reimbursey things today that are paid by our fellow citizens, and of course, we need to have -- go
head-to-head with big pharma on this. i was told it was not possible, but i saw that it is possible to cut debt to cut the price of medicine that was hugely expensive. the price was reduced almost by a third or half, so that was considerable, but at some point, it is all about political resolve. that political will no longer exist because we are in the hands of big pharma, big finance, and people with private interest behind them. we are surprised we saw mr. macron with the reimbursement of high blood pressure. why high blood pressure? because his health advisor was at of the biggest lobbyists a big pharma firm that specializes in high blood pressure. >> i share some of the
recommendations made by mr. the 10 deaths by ms. le pen. 80% of drugs are produced abroad. if you want to tax imports but to increase the prices of imported drugs, there will be a tax. imports are going to be taxed, so we have abandoned the idea of ? ving french pharma firms >> we are not going to cover younight the imports that will be banning. in the years to come, if you are elected, all drugs will increase in price, all imported drugs, to show the incoherence of what you propose. >> it's not true, is a? >> you can check this in your files. problems are the
medical debits. where there are many counties of france, where there is a shortage of doctors or nurses, we must invest in medical centers. reorganize public and private medicine to facilitate so that' experience they can get out of hospital more quickly to go to medical centers to have easier access to specialists, and in order to the accident and emergency department, and i'm particularly thinking of our territories overseas. there is a need to boost health care in guyana, in particular. we spend more money on the vacuum waiting patients from our overseas territories to metropolitan france where we should encourage specialists to go to -- there is a huge problem of
illegal immigration going on. >> you're quite right there is an illegal immigration issue going on in those overseas territories, but there are health care problems i wish to underscore. it would want to reduce what -- if we wantpaid to reduce what remains to be , when i talk about classes, i talk about both the frame and the lenses. we need to clarify the relationship between social the professionals. the patients have to pay much too much today. we have standard contracts which cannot be modified. we must have three standard contracts for all citizens. contract, and all-risk contract that covers everything, and a minimum contract. it's very difficult today if you compare your insurance coverage contract with your neighbor's it is impossible to know if you
have better coverage than your neighbor. we must all come around the table, and one of my priorities will be to reform, and prevention, i think, is very important. i fully agree that we must -- it will take years to change doctors. we must improve prevention in schools, health care, nursing homes, in the training of doctors. they must have at least one quarter dedicated to prevention. >> you have been speaking about prevention. it did not bother you to see that vocational health -- the macron law. >> is called the oh, rely -- it law.lled the el comerie protectionealth care
and companies has collapsed because we are withdrawing the means to do prevention for employees. we cut those resources. we are cutting medical appointments. that will have a very serious effect, but plainly, in actual fact, you do not plan to prevent. >> if we can push forward. at what age should the french people be able to retire? >> 60 with 40 annuities. >> 60 years when they have 40. >> no, i commit to have been the case by the end of a five-year term. no, it has not changed. >> i thought you were going to do this within two months of being elected. >> no, mr. macron, listen. you do not know what my project is. let me tell you very clearly,
the sooner the better because the idea that we should always -- our sacrifices from french people by really blaming them, that is your great specialty, objectively. system does not work, it is their fault. they are not working long enough. they are not working enough. there was always this business of the blaming the french if they are unemployed. aresay it is because you not accepting the job offers put to you. that is why you want to limit unemployment benefits. and if after two job offers, they have said no, they have rejected them, no more unemployment benefit. that way of blaming the french people, i can no longer hackett. >> you are quite right.
they have the right not to be taken for fools. >> talk about your project. >> thank you. if the retirement system today is in great difficulty, it is not the fault of the french people. it is your fault, the system that is supporting you that has been in power for years, put in place an economic model leading to mass unemployment. a good way ofnd saving pensions is to create jobs. billion.at 60 is 17 reducing unemployment is 25 million extra income for the state. you were not able to do that because this wild, rampant up.alization opening that leads to the mass unemployment we are seeing. today, we want to break with
that model, put in place protection against globalization to rearm in the face of globalization and thereby effectively with her economic to jobs, reduce unemployment, and to save this pension system that we are so attached to. you want a single scheme, it has been in the fires of the ultra-liberals because, in fact, it will be across the board cutting, and it will be the in of additional pensions -- that is, of course, managers, the private world, this point-based retirement system. we find it in mr. fillon very similar. >> with your suggested globalization of the system, what would be the retirement age
reppo >> first of all, mrs. le pen proposes people should be allowed to retire at 60. this will cost us 30 million. it cannot be funded. earlyas done in the 1980's at a time when life expectancy was 10 years lower than it is today, so ultimately, there is no magic. i believe in the pay-as-you-go proposingreby actively working pay, so either you have to increase contributions or you have to reduce pensions. you cannot allow everybody to .etire at 60 at 60, it's very generous, you can retire, but you do not explain how you finance all that, or, of course, you take the cut int
unemployment. you do not explain how you will cut unemployment. madame le pen's retirement plan is it an increase in pensions or a cut in retirement. .o do not lie i am not proposing a single system. we have 37 different basic pension schemes in this country. people do not accept this inequality. a retailer, a farmer, a craftsman no longer accept to have -- to see other people with schemes thatoners are more favorable. the next mandate, i'm not going to change the level of social contributions. i'm going to put in place a system which will gradually come into place. all acquired rights will be
maintained and each person will contribute a little bit more each year, and we will then decide in a responsible way -- are you prepared either to increase contributions or to retire later? -- ill be decided an announcement to make. no, it is not the plan of the employer federation. >> this may be is not the most interesting question -- >> fascinating question to know who will be -- it is important to know. >> we are often accused of not the toes into something that is of concern of the french people. the pay-as-you-go system is more transparent and error, and we
know how it is funded. terrorism, and something of great concern to the french people. there have then numerous attacks. there are two laws became its power. we are still under a state of emergency. what are your propositions, given the current context? >> security and terrorism is a major issue totally absent from your project, totally absent. no proposal whatsoever. ourphysical security of fellow citizens, the fight against terrorism, fundamentalism, you do not want to lead it. we have to restore national borders immediately right away, and that is something i will do immediately after i assume power. expel themediately .oreigners on the watchlist cheer nationals will
implement the stripping of nationality. in are against that but are favor of -- >> let me explain my own project . >> stripped of their nationality , they would also be expelled. >> you are going to terrorize people, stripping people of nationalities. the president of the republic suggested it. it does not solve the problem. somebody who is attacked by areorists -- these people committing suicide. these are suicide bombers. >> so you are just waiting for ? e attack >> somebody who wants to commit suicide, stripping people of nationality will not prevent somebody from committing suicide. >> so, before they have committed the attacks, stripping their nationality, expelled immediately, all those removed from france, policeman can
.ontinue to keep a watch 11,000 islamic fundamentalists on the watchlist that is the of your government. that is shameful. the day after the attacks, you said -- and of not going to during theogram night against terrorism. you are running to be president, and you haven't even got a program made up, a serious -- >> i'm not falling into the trap -- let me finish. continually insulting -- you are very irritated. >> let me speak. talk about your project instead of saying stupid things about my project. >> you don't have a project. you don't have a product that you are complacent with islamic fundamentalism.
>> because you're interrupting me every 10 seconds. i sense you are irritated. we must attack the root problem of evil, the exponential growth of islamist fundamentalism on our soil. of course, we must shut down the sts, the union of islamic organizations in france -- francet organizations in because it is the islamist organization that defends islamism. people came to express their ,atred of jews, of homosexuals of ms. billy bush who systematically engage in hate
speech. it is important for the french people to know this. a priest who is in favor of stoning women supports you. all those who received reports in their congresses and saying things that have called for murder do not seem too upset you. i think that is extremely revealing an extremely problematic. we must address, attack all these associations that are supported by muslim brotherhood, stop foreign funding from countries that mr. macron knows well -- qatar, saudi arabia. you maintained tax breaks for investments by these countries in france, and your government a republican accolade
recently to one of its leaders. the ideologycate of islamist fundamentalism in our country, and you will not do they hold you. it is as simple as that. , terrifying,say because it can have very onerous , but you were blackmailed. radical, orislamist called for your defeat, and you preferred to keep that support rather than running the risk of expressing your express condemnation of these abuses against today -- against which today nothing serious has an actual fact been done.
-- lligence laws, security all total waffle to keep an eye on everyone, not to have to keep an eye on those on the .atchlist who are dangerous we are being soft on the legal andt and this daily security today is an unbearable weight, not just in towns but also in the countryside, so there needs to be convictions. these convictions must be applied. we need to have 40,000 additional prison places and to free up a number of places, we have to have bilateral agreements with countries that the foreigners come from that are imprisoned so that they serve their sentence in their country of origin. there is a plan with
re-implementing intelligence system, which is complete to fight against crime and terrorism, and, of course, you will have noticed that hybridization. >> terrorism in the terrorist are the priorities for the next few years. i want to be the president of the french republic, so i want to be head of the army and in charge of the security of france. that will be my priority. reinforcing law enforcement forces before a tax take place. regarding the watchlist, this is intelligence. i want to strengthen the measures which have already been taken, including imprisonment which are for activities which relate to jihadist activities. -- if you meet a
jihadist, you can be listed on this watchlist. terroristster of priority. -- the >> you would rather keep them? >> he did not interrupt you. please do not interrupt him. >> i have always said a quarter were on therists watchlist, so we have to improve intelligence. we have to strengthen and in some cases expel people, and i am in favor of more surgical interventions rather than more general. i want to strengthen our intelligence. we have dismantled our domestic territorial intelligence service. the threat covers the whole of our french territory, so we must focus on all parts of our territory, strengthening the links with cyber intelligence,
and to coordinate all of this, to prevent rather than cure, i would create a task force, which would report directly to the president, not another agency, that will coordinate the intelligence services, and closure of the borders is not a solution. there are many countries which are not part of the shenzhen agreement which have had terrorist attacks in spite of closing their borders. since november 2015, we have restored border patrols to fight and overerrorism 20,000 people have been arrested. what you are proposing is power in the eyes. we have to identify all those people who are a threat. -- ourre people intelligence service -- we have
to cooperate also with other states. we need greater cooperation between member states of the european union. there has been some progress. the passenger data control -- we can have passenger information. terrorists live. many terrorists. you voted against the passenger information system. there have been attacks in airports. you voted against all reforms by the european union to fight against terrorism. >> pointless. >> so you propose nothing? >> what are you going to put at the border seattle more guards? are you serious? officers --stoms customs officers are remarkable -- civilervants
servants. they are not trained to fight terrorists. it is not their job. terrorists work on the internet and use other means of action. >> we do have a question on this topic. >> sorry, i have a question. , you said france has a share of responsibility in the breeding ground of terrorism. can you explain that? >> first of all, i'm going to go against the stupid things you said earlier. which i serious project have always taken my responsibilities, unlike modern le pen, who is very good at talking about the fight against terrorism on the television set, but whenever there are reforms in the european parliament, she does not vote in favor of them. the ois -- if this organization invites people or carries out activities which are against the law, i would have it and -- have
it banned. leaders of thehe organization or the third party that got them to participate in meetings of the national front. i had nothing to do with those people. i do not know those people at all. i have no relationship with them. you, they support you, and you said you accepted their support. >> either they do not respect the laws of the republic -- in that case, file a complaint. take them to court. >> if i am elected president of the republic, i will dismantle all associations -- i'm not president of the republic. i cannot do it. >> do you accept their support of the caveat? >> are they breaking the law? >> you are cynical.
>> homosexuality leads to the destruction of society, that's why the need to be condemned to death. >> it's wonderful to hear you defending homosexuals. >> i'm not going back to far. , those peopleews .ho support you i hope you will never be president. >> the wonderful merit of this debate is to listen to your expressing compassion for the jews and homosexuals of this country. it's wonderful. i have always protected them, of course. >> protected? by supporting islamist fundamentalism? i hope you are joking. don't joke with that. >> don't lie, and i'm not
joking. -- andt support the iof i repeat -- >> you accepted their support. all associations which call for violence and hatred will be in trouble. >> you accepted their support. >> they have participated in your meetings, not mine. >> you said in a show you accepted their support. >> france has a share of responsibility. >> who came to a deal with daesh? opportunityave the to answer that with our next .uestion what should we do about homegrown radicalism in france? >> these are serious debates.
talk throughy insinuations. i am not uncomfortable at all. people young french radicalizing? ? because we are france >> i did not say that. i said we must ask ourselves people, whenench young french women born in france, who have grown up in france who have been educated in our country, when they follow our own and destroy children, we must ask ourselves questions. we have to share responsibility for this, but the main calls are terrorists,s, the and that's why i want to wage a war in syria -- may i answer? how can children born in the thatlic and radicalized
are mentally disturbed -- we know there are some mentally beenanced people who have radicalized. we need to take preventative measures. our republic must give every individual his or her place. at the same time, we fight resolutely, has zero tolerance for terrorism outside our borders and within her borders make sure that every individual finds his place in our republic. ally our public is not give young people a place in society --failure at school, social so we had a share responsibility. we must examine our own
conscience when our own children want to destroy our own retirement. for me that is the most important thing. as head of security, i will be secure -- determine, and i will fight in every against islamist terrorists. you they expect is the trap are going to fall into -- civil war. with the external's expect, you should divide ourselves. speech,t to hear the and a famous academic said this morning, musad in 2005 in a cap said our biggest wish is that le pen would madam come to power. that will be wonderful for us. they're seeking for radicalization division civil war. that is the risk you are running by consulting the french because of their religion and i will
never go down that road, never. class never, never in all my life have i insulted anyone because of his religion or background. but that is an old litany. young outside and old inside. because your arguments are twice your age. >> do not go in that area. i am defending france. i defend france, whatever happens. don't you think you share the responsibility in the hatred that is growing accusing france of crimes against humanity, crimes against humanity. that is the most serious crime
that can exist. you went. you who wants to be president. you went to algeria. you went abroad to say france has committed a crime against humanity. how can you be surprised that the of people say that since france crime -- committed a crime against humanity, why don't we make them pay for their crimes? you have a huge responsibility when you say things about the hatred that a number of young people have towards the country that they live in or some other country of which they have a nationality. >> what you are suggesting on the fight against the radicalization of young people? >> it's very simple. radicalization must be managed by the courts. once again, we put an end to all the association, sports, cultural, that have spread across our territory
with the support of local elected representatives. >> so you would have nothing to do with islam? you will stop those associated? >> ok, continuing to engage in electoralism, i'm talking about something that is very important which is the growth of this fundamentalist ideology that recruits by preying on the weakness of our leaders, of the willful blindness of the number of elected representatives. we must put a stop to this huge number of sports associations where religious grievances that are unacceptable. and everyone turns a blind eye in companies. and it's somewhat thanks to you or because of you, should i say, mr. macron, because with the law as it happens, well, you prevent business leaders from avoiding
community-based grievances and -- and totally unreasonable. i would say with this radical price,we are paying the we are paying a heavy price for that vote. it is with total firmness that we need to act with objectively when i hear mr. macron go to algeria saying france committed a crime against humanity that he accepts the support of uoif, this islamist organization that receives preachers of hatred. mr. ali justifying the stoning -- >> you're saying stupid things, as usual. i don't know mr. ramadan. you are saying very stupid things. you're lying. >> absolutely not. go and see. we have the screen shot, maybe you asked him to remove his
tweet. but that support was given. nothing, no word from you to condemn that. that i'm saying that it is very strong concern to see you elected head of state. >> those are lies. you raised an important question of that the algerian war. it was dramatic. many our fellow citizens were affected by the french who were repatriated. >> they were criminals. you call them criminals. >> i met all of them. i want to go to look toward the future. i do not want to wage the war of memories. >> you reopened those wounds. >> i'm not repenting and i'm not denying.
there were crimes against humanity that were committed. you insulted a lot of french people when you discussed what happened during world war ii when the french police rounded up the jews. french -- and that is a crime against humanity. we have to look at our past directly. we must tell the truth to all our fellow citizens to reconcile them in order to -- not to cultivate hatred as your extreme right party has been doing for 10 decades. you have done -- >> mr. macron, we're not going to have a legal debate on the roundup here. but i consider that france was in london. that's my opinion that general de gaulle had and that mr. mitterand had today. >> leave the general out of this. >> but there is a whole set of people who consider that france wasn't guilty of that terrible horror.
but in fact it was the vichy regime that was responsible. >> that's false. that's not true. >> jacques chirac, i mean we don't have to share his view. many have a legal vision that is different on the matter. and everything that lightens the responsibility of the vichy regime is in my view unwelcomed. so once again to make that utilization -- >> you tried to use that. that you opened that topic. >> it's pretty revealing of what you've been doing for a week now. >> and it certainly hurts our fellow citizens who are jews. >> but that utilization speaks volumes about you. >> you talked about it. it's a journalist you probably didn't choose. >> i don't choose journalists.
you can choose them but not i. >> let's move on to security in a broader sense. you're both saying the same things about zero tolerance. what is zero tolerance? >> zero tolerance is every time a crime is committed, there has to be a penalty. it must applied. it is in large part today. well, sentences can be replaced on a number of measures, the bracelet, to have to go see the judge from time to time. maybe we can talk about the --sequences of that lacks lax situation. [indiscernible] broken his legal control.
he was seen by a judge and he said that's not nice. you must not violate that. that he was freed by the judge. that is unacceptable. so i think that every time an offense is committed, even if it offends, there needs to be a criminal penalty. the judges must be involved. they must receive instructions regarding the scrapping of a return to minimum sentences, for example. or that far leaders -- foreigners must be returned to their country. we have to accept on our soil those who leave prison and who are foreign nationals remain in france. i mean, these are things which obviously are unacceptable. for that, we need more judges. i'm very sorry there.
again, that's more spending. but i assume that. more judges and more prison places because today we're in a situation of not only overcrowding the prisons, but a huge number of criminals and offenders don't go to prison where they're sentenced to firm sentences. >> what is zero tolerance to you? >> first of all, 10,000 extra gendarmes and police officers across france. we need to increase the resources of our police forces. the riot police were attacked by extreme left militants and who were seriously burdened. we need to equip our law enforcement organizations better. the day-to-day security needs to be reinforced. and i totally assume this investment. in the field, on the ground, i want zero tolerance against -- for delinquency.
minor offenses which are not brought to justice. so i want to improve day-to-day policing by policemen who know the ground, know the field, and i will give them two powers, extra powers that don't exist which -- first of all, the power to impose fines. for minor offenses for which there are not criminal. for example, shoplifting, for example. shoplifting. i want police officers to be able to impose fines as they can already do for truck drivers, for example. a gendarme or a police officer can impose a fine for shoplifting, for example as we already do -- >> who's going to go and collect the fine? because in other places where the fire brigade don't go in -- do you think bailiffs are going
to go in order to collect the fine that's been imposed? >> how do we handle that for road traffic? >> for road offenses. road traffic offenses offense affect the only citizens that are forced to pay, whereas the thugs who live in other areas their fines are not collected. that's the big injustice that exists in our country. there are -- that are really the drivers and others in states under the responsibility of thugs. they can commit all possible crimes and offenses. and the sentence is never applied when it's just a fine or even to repair the damage that they committed. >> so after diverging and
interrupting me, you said something which is totally irrelevant to what i was saying. it will be possible for police officers to impose fines. what is unbearable for a policeman who stops a young person who owns drugs or shoplifting, he is taken to a magistrate after a long procedure and then he is out in the field again. and you will solve this problem overnight. and then six months, a year later, the offender is called back. and in 3/4 of cases the cases dismissed. i want the police to be able to impose fines. and if the fines aren't paid, then judicial action can be taken. when young people commit crimes, -- the only law enforcement organization must be able with the authorization of a
magistrate with an accelerated procedure, they must be banned from staying in certain places. >> that's rubbish. it is a civil injunction. it can only be applied by a judge. i am proposing an accelerated procedure. >> i'm very sorry, it's important. >> there are many other important topics. >> let me finish my proposals. very briefly, please. >> so in addition today policing and more police need new means of coercion, i want our justices to be more determined. so all sentences must be executed.
and for -- so you are going to cancel the law? >> madam, i was wrong. >> so going back, just a question. if you could wrap up. not with a question, please, because you will not be able to answer. we won't be able to get to you. >> take a minute. policemen are murdered, and we try and murder them as we saw yesterday. >> i just talked about that myself. >> that's why i'm coming back on this. so these groups that the anti-far groups that break things up, do you want them to be dissolved? >> i'm for the dissolution of all violent groups that have been identified. >> why wasn't it done? >> let's not go back over this again. >> there's a big difference.
you are the heiress of a system, a party, and a name. i'm not -- i participated in the government for a very short period. i resigned from the government. and the civil service. so you can continually blame me for everything that is done over the last five, 10, or 15 years. i will only -- i'm only accountable for what i have done. hollande, who supports you twice a day as well as all your minister friends with whom you've gotten all the socialist ministers who were your colleagues in government. >> let's not go back to the beginning of the debate. >> why don't you accept this legacy? we now call you hollande jr. >> i'm sure everyone tuned in from the beginning. we don't have to go back to the beginning. >> i assume my --
>> we want to move on to europe. please stop. >> they won't believe you. madam le pen, the french are not as stupid as you seem to think they are. >> no. you left in order to organize your candidacy of that a system to put in place. the conditions to make the french people think that precisely you knew where it was. the candidate chose by the socialists, by the system to survive. otherwise they wouldn't have been able to survive. >> there are 30 seconds between you. let's move on to europe. the international sphere, as i believe it is an important point of contention between you two. yes, we have move on to the international sphere. there are differences between your two positions starting off with the european union. you have two completely opposite
views on the european union. you could give each your vision for your plan? >> yes, of course. european union will have leave the sovereign free alliance that is the prime initial vision of european people. that is the freedom to decide for themselves, controlling their borders, deciding who comes in and who doesn't. on the territory, we'll control the currency to adapt the currency to their economy and in order to avoid ending up with the situation that we now have of mass unemployment. macron is trying to fix this -- there is an unemployment benefit of social
protection, where the representatives of the french people as part of democracy will pass laws. they will have an authority above the directives imposed by commissioners of no one knows their name or their face. and no one has ever chosen above all. and will regain economic sovereignty, patriotism to give a boost to our french companies and intelligent protectionism, to put in place the locks that are necessary so that production doesn't compete with us through health dumping, social dumping, or environmental dumping. and, of course, we'll have control of our trade policy. i knew that you will you will -- free trade agreements that are imposed upon us and are not decided by us that have serious consequences for farming, for our breeders and also for our industry and also serious consequences in terms of health because production that reach
market are obviously not subject to the same safety standards of those that apply to our own farmers. and obviously aimed at protecting the health of our fellow citizens. so i want to enter into negotiations in order to bring about this european alliance to organize a conference of heads of state and government rather similar to the conference to hold a constitutional referendum. that, of course, put to the vote of french people. >> do you know when? >> constitutional referendum. in september. specifically in september. i'll indicate that every new law will have a superior authority above european directives in terms of european precedent. in parallel, i'll put in place all measures that i can put in place immediately on the economic front, reducing costs,
a tax increase, boosting small pensions, because not everything depends on the e.u. but key things are blocking and preventing us from relaunching our economy. they go against european rules when vital interests of the country are at stake. i mean, i believe that something that we need to be put in place in order to immediately put an end to the posted workers directive immediately. because it has serious consequences on jobs and we must immediately take that decision and let me end at last after the negotiations. i will do nothing against the french people. i won't do what your socialist
friends did in 2005, that is, the french voted no to the constitution and in spite of that, we said yes in their place. i'll turn to the french. i'll present the outcome that happens. this is what i managed to obtain. do consider it enough. do consider that it's not enough. and on that choice that will commit us for the future, for the future of france, i'm a european. i want to save europe to wrench europe from the hands of the e.u. that is killing it. i'll seek the views of the french people. >> when would the second referendum be? >> i said six months. that's an indication, that's an indicative timetable. i don't want to create chaos. i don't want to rush things. six, 10 months. it will be 10 months. what's important once again is to obtain the negotiation, and just for few more seconds, mr. macron, you gave an interview while back to reuters you said
the euro will be dead in 10 years. that's it, dead in 10 years. >> you're not very precise. i said more or less 10 years. >> you say if we don't have a federal europe totally governments with the loss of our sovereignty, totally with all keys of france, you give in all areas, the budget, european tax and the euro won't be able to survive. that's your solution. it's not mine. i don't think it's out of the french people to have this leap forward of federalism, almost a form of european extremism. all the candidates of first round, you were the one who is expressing the most radical position, the most extremist of being subjected to european federalism.
>> maybe we can give the opportunity to mr. macron to give us his vision for the future of europe. >> the euro is not a foreign policy. it's not just an abstract subject. it's what we use to pay. do we leave the euro or stay in the euro? >> we must return to our national currency. it is key. >> it is essential. >> so you propose to leave the euro and return to the -- >> no, renegotiate that we can free ourselves from the euro and we transform night a common currency. that's what it was before it became the currency of france. when we won't -- >> will we pay with the euro? >> the central banks will pay with euros if they wish. large companies will pay with euro if they want. >> so there will be two currencies? >> not for the french people, knell for individual, not for
small companies. >> what will be the use of the >> what will be the use of the euro? what is the use of the euro? >> as a basket of currencies. you know. that it existed because -- it existed. just before the euro. just before the euro became a currency, a physical occur ebbcy in france. oh, yes, yes, yes. it was euro. already. and before that it was the ecu. >> so the large companies play in ecu's? >> companies could pay in euros. that system worked perfectly. don't pretend you don't know. that you know full well it there worked as part of the ems and it has worked pretty well. but what the french people need to understand above all is that, well, i mean this common euro currency doesn't really concern them. it's just a facility between states for central banks. it doesn't affect them.
they'll have a currency. >> please stop interrupting me. >> yes, i'm speaking of you. you'll be able to catch up. so the french will have currency in their wallet to return to a level of economy, to export once again and once again gain market share, which will have purchasing power of the french people because it led to a spectacular increase in prices. >> thank you, mrs. le pen. >> will the large companies play in euros? >> they have a choice. >> we really need you to give us your vision for the future of europe. >> she has passed that question. >> what is europe -- >> my europe is the opposite of what madam le pen is.
a large company cannot pay in euros on the one hand and pay its employees in france in another currency. this has never existed. the ecu was a reference currency . nobody used the ecu to pay. our debts were paid in euro. will our debts be paid in euros or francs? >> the project fails coming back. the one you do it after the time of the brexit. that makes me laugh. it makes the french people laugh. because before breakfast there's was project fear. it's going to be the collapse of the u.k. economy. the u.k. economy has never been in such great shape since the british decided to regain their freedom versus -- see, it doesn't work. it doesn't work. it doesn't work. try something else.
>> the u.k. has never been part of the euro. >> the projects is still the same users. same arguement said to the british. if ever you vote to leave the e.u. not to mention the currency, if you leave the e.u., it will be terrible. your economy will collapse. recession, rocketing unemployment, the opposite happened. so the project that is implemented by the financial powers that support you aimed at leaving the system as it is because it's to their benefit. the euro is the currency of the bankers and not of the people. that's why we must wrench ourselves from the currency. i know the whole system will defend it because they have a benefit. >> what is europe in 2020 in your opinion? >> i'm against everything that madam le pen said. can we have a democratic debate , madam le pen, please? first of all, the big fear which
manipulating you're , manipulating the fears of our citizens regarding terrorism, , the great fear, and you are the uk has nothing to do with the euro. it has never been part of the euro. now, the euro -- you propose the french should withdraw from the euro. i think that is a mortal proposal and a dangerous proposal. and your do to yourself system has no meaning. it shows that you're unprepared. what is your vision? my vision is to build a strong europe, to i have a european policy that will be powerful and in which we will defend the interest of france. everyone needs to understand the farmer in a region buys his raw materials from abroad. he has to pay in euros.
and he has to pay his employees in francs. a lot of products are imported. and if he is a stock breeder, the italians will buy his products in euros. and he will pay his employees in francs. >> each country will have its currency. >> so you're going to decide for the others. >> >> that's the purpose of the negotiation. >> so you're going to decide for the 19 other states that are part of the euro that they will leave? >> especially those who are suffering and what their national currency. they're dying from the euro. >> all of this will not exist. the farmer understands what he's part of. the farmer who grows apples and who sells in euros, he needs the euro as a common currency. he'll no longer have it. the day you leave the euro, how do you finance this? you devalue the new franc by 20% or 30%. the saver overnight will lose
20% or 30% of his savings will lose value. will drop in value by 20% or 30%. we're part of the eurozone whether we like it or not. it's the reality of the french economy. >> your economy ministry, you're saying that? ok. it's pretty worrying. don't worry french people. understand why the results were so poor. it's incredible. >> madam le pen, you had your time to speak. >> your mobile phone, your files are made in countries that are abroad. and even what is made in france needs the rest of europe. when those of us -- those who are listening to us in toulouse and in many other parts of france work on the 380 airbus
project, airbus and the subcontributors, 1/3 of the value of the airbus is created in other european countries, because we are intergrated. we live in an intergrated economy because the germans will be keeping the euro. we'll be in francs. we will lose our competitiveness. >> no, we will gain competitiveness, because the mark will appreciate in value. >> i let you argue and give details. so now i would like you to let me present my point of view. france is not a closed country. it's a country that is part of europe and part of the world. it's not the defeatism that you defend. i am for a strong france in a protected europe. i don't want citizens to lose purchasing power, jobs, competitiveness by leaving the eurozone. >> since when does it protect? >> i listened you to.
you please listen to me. please listen to me. your project is mortal in terms of purchasing power, competitiveness and in terms of our ability to be strong in the world. what i want, i want france that takes its responsibility that implements reforms in terms of vocational training and unemployment. many countries are doing very well in the euro. >> germany. germany. >> many other countries. >> germany. >> because they have implemented the reforms. and there are some countries that are not doing well outside europe. what you propose is the currency war. the currency war has never helped us, has never -- >> we have far fewer jobless than today. in 2000 we didn't have fewer jobless? >> we had -- >> more jobless han today? >> reforms were not implemented as they should have at the beginning of the -- >> 2,000 more unemployed than
today. ok. you are an economy minister right, not i. i mean i know nothing about. that but you're an economy minister. so you know probably know better than i do. >> fortunately, what you propose there are net users who can check if there were more unemployed in 2000. >> in the early 1990's -- in the currency war -- i'm precise. in the early 1990's, when there was a real currency war and france hadn't started to converge economically, there were more unemployed people than today, france was not a better state. so i want competitive france and to remain in the euro. the euro protects us. it prevents currency destabilization. it protects the savings of our fellow citizens. i don't want everybody to panic because we'll have to introduce capital controls as you said.
you said i don't want -- that there will be a panic, a bank panic. i want from the very beginning in europe to change the posted workers directive. as a minister, i introduced a card that controlled workers in the construction sector to fight against illegal posted workers for the same job, in the same country, people should be paid in the same way. the posted workers needs to be revised. >> the charges aren't the same. >> including charges. >> you going to impose that? >> i won't. i thought it was not possible. quite associations are possible. i fought against chinese dumping. i'm not just words, a man of words and i'm proposing -- i am not proposing miraculous solutions.
what i propose is clearer, coherent, is to have a euro that provides more protection with european markets at our reserve for -- 50% for european countries, a strong euro with more european investments, which we need, to have real control over posted workers. we have better control over posted workers, and, finally, to have a trade policy that is more -- we need european trade policy. because that's what protects us in the face of russia and china, today we have a markets of 60 million inhabitants. china has over a billion consumers. consumers. at the european level is steel -- the employees in the steel sector know this. we have been able to prevent chinese attacks on our steel
industry. i want europe that goes faster, less bureaucratic and we need the euro in the face of globalization. >> for 20 years you've been promising this, the mass deindustrialization. we've seen the collapse of our jobs and massive offshoring. >> because the reforms were not fully implemented. >> it's not the -- >> the savings of the french peoples is under threat because of europe. it's very important. the listeners must understand. if the strategic state isn't there to put its foot down to prevent the banks from delving into the savings of savers. that is what they did in cyprus. if it's not i representing this data, no, i'll protect presence
currency whatever i have to do, then the french people will have their savings stolen, so its submission from me to you. >> it's completely false. in cyprus and in athens, the threat was the threat of -- >> let him speak -- >> why did the greeks and the cypriots fight to stay in the euro? >> the reality is you went to speak to mrs. merkel. you went to ask for her blessing because you planned to do nothing without her agreement. it's so true. what are you going to do opposite mrs. merkel? you said i won't be opposite her. i will be with her. >> of course, i want france to measure up to germany. >> let me tell you what would happen. france will be led by a woman. it will be either me or mrs. merkel. that's the truth. >> stop all these formulas.
germany has -- >> calm down. let me finish. i know you're irritated -- >> stop interrupting me. they worked together and -- >> he didn't want that euro. >> they built the euro that we have today. >> there are other topics we can get to. i come from a region that suffered from the war. i don't want the nationalism that you represent -- >> you have to include that. >> you can laugh. you can laugh. i was wondering when you were going to bring that one up. >> protectionism, isolationism, nationalism. it's the fight against other people. >> you're mistaken. >> french culture, not.
>> we don't have the same vision, madam le pen, of french history. what you propose is to leave history, and i hope our fellow citizens have understood that. it's the imbalance between france and germany that are seeds of war. when we are not subservient to the dictates of europe, germany. war was created by this submission that you replicated because your submission to germany and it's very serious. >> you both have plenty of time to speak. >> it concerns our sovereignty, our independence, but also defending the interests of the french people. >> we completely understand that. >> we fully agree, madam. we will agree to disagree. >> our views, our visions are --
>> the german chancellor will be pleased. >> insulting germany is not good. >> i understand their interests. they're defending their interests. you are defending their interests. it is in the interest of the people who are watching. the interest of france are not in conflict with germany. our real competition is china, emerging countries. >> let's broaden the scope. people often say that foreign policy is important, but we'd like your opinion as head of state, we would like your opinion as to how we should interact with mr. trump and mr. putin. macron, you have one minutes and 20 seconds behind mrs. le pen.
>> my policy for france, which i would describe as a mixture of meetterism. terrorist comes from beyond our borders in libya in africa and because the world is destabilized, economically, destabilized in terms of international security, terrorism that comes beyond our borders, as well as in our borders, and because the world is destabilized by the reconsideration of alliances. i want france -- a country that wants to know how to build peace. my priority will be the fight against islamist terrorism by continuing to cultivate our alliances. i will propose to mr. trump to continue to work where the united states of america. they are our partners for intelligence, in terms of intelligence. they are our partners in the security council of the united nations. we need the united states of america and we should continue this work since world war ii was
even before that. we were in the same camp. we had an independent voice and when france refused to get involved in iraq, for example, we need strong cooperation for our security with mr. trump, i want to continue the work that has started on climate change. we need -- >> he doesn't agree with you. >> civil society doesn't agree with him. mr. trump will soon realize it is not in his interest. i would propose to work together with him from an economic standpoint. i want a stronger europe. you want to be credible in the face of the united states of america. we need an integrated strong european market. real european policy market with public procurement rules. mr. putin has put several issues on the table. the ukrainian conflict, we must
deescalate, we must favor deescalation of this, and in syria, russia is part of the solution, but i will not accept any -- to have my behavior dictated by mr. putin. that's the difference with mrs. le pen. we will not submit to russia or mr. putin's values which are not the same values as ours. so regarding syria, our priority must be the fight against terrorist jihadism and we must find a shrill solution by getting all the stake holders around the table so the u.s. will be working partner on a number of regional issues which i will discuss with them but we don't have the same values and the same priorities. >> ms. le pen, on trump and putin.
>> interesting what you said. you mentioned france. by saying france will be respected if it's a large economic power. chance budget. no. france will be respected of its -- it is france if it once again generally becomes france with this particular specific voice that it had in the world, because the world is waiting on france and france has lost that special voice, because it's subservient to germany, to u.s. policy. it must therefore regain its independence. i'm sorry to remind you what general de gaulle had imposed on numerous occasions. the independence of france in the world, in order to secure its independence, it must not subject itself to the imperialist vision of people, because that creates war. that creates war.
the contrary of imperialism is in effect the respect of all nations. i believe france should once again be the state that respects all nations, respects their for -- of their system of political organization, the moralization, the moralizing, moral lessons, great specialty of the socialist party. you lecture the whole world -- not the whole world. that's the problem. there's always double standards. there are those you lecture by morals and those -- >> the same as mr. putin. >> qatar -- saudi arabia, for example. you do not lecture them. >> on this subject -- >> don't interrupt. >> i'm interrupting because you're saying stupid things. >> hear me through. be courteous.
qatar, saudi arabia are part of -- investment bankers -- >> i propose we get rid of the tax agreements -- >> your relationship with vladimir putin, if i can just get a word in. >> you better, feeling better? >> i'm fine, thank you, mrs. le pen. >> i think we need to be equidistant between russia and the united states. every reason to have relations diplomatic, trade, because it is a great nation. russia has not shown hostility toward france. i do not care what the
russia andp between united states are. i can tell you that in this world that is changing, that is making decisions that are own,ite to those of your defending their independence, a turningintelligence, their back on systematic interference. i am the best place to talk to that world, the best place to talk to india,, to talk to the ..k., theresa may and you said very nice things about the united states and russia. in fact, you rounded with everyone and lectured everyone. that's not the way to conduct diplomacy, to be heard in the
world if we don't regain our diplomatic face which is the voice of independence, of p sovereignty, for the defense of people, then france won't make its great return in the world and will continue to be viewed as mrs. merkel has viewed us for years. >> we're going to move on to a different topic. the world -- >> if you're elected the world won't look at us in the same way. >> great nations, india, russia, the united states -- >> read what the international press says. read what they say about the image of france. you do not give a good image of france. >> we will see that. >> all the great nations follow my line and turn their backs on the theories of ultraliberalism, outright free trade. >> you want to sweep that aside. >> clear debate. >> you have all the economic
model of the 1980's when there was reagan, mrs. thatcher. >> very sorry. >> no one admires that old economic model apart from you. >> move on to schools. >> the french people will decide. let's move on the to a new topic. >> you're so arrogant. you've already celebrated your victory before the end of the second round. >> the french people are watching us this evening and they want to know what is your project for schools. my questions are concise and i hope your responses will be just as concise. >> my project for the school system is to focus our resources on primary school. 20% of primary school children don't know how to read. they will fail in the secondary schools, and 150,000 young people will be leaving the secondary school system without any qualifications.
so we must focus on the primary school, first of all, by restoring the hours of teaching the french language and the -- also reintroducing the teaching of latin in secondary school and practical work, in modest families, inequalities are reproduced when people go home. so tutorials are important. and quality education. i want to reduce the number of pupils in primary school classes. that's where you learn the fundamentals. 12 pupils per class. 12,000 teaching positions will be created. so this is indispensable. and then we must make an effort in the terms of professional advice, orientation, we must get companies involved and academic
institutions must be more involved to explain what jobs are available. parents who have not been successful socially they have a , diploma, or a baccalaureate, but they don't know what to do after leaving school. so at university, i want more transparency regarding the results of academic institutions. when you qualify in a institution, what jobs can you get? and finally i want to develop apprenticeships. many young people will not succeed only through academic education. apprenticeships are indispensable. we must simplify the rules. we must build bridges with the world of business and the corporate world, and in brief, those are my ideas for -- for me, the top priority for reconstructing our country is to transform the educational system.
>> mrs. le pen. >> school has been ransacked by the socialists, ransacked. they're just about everything and nothing. instead of teaching french reserved, 50% in primary school to the french language, because it's the heart of everything and more generally to the fundamental skills we put in place, teaching and learning for children of their language of origin, reduce the teaching of grammar, scrap, repeating classes for budgetary reasons, not for the well-being of kids, but just for savings we ask pupils to build their knowledge and skill sets. there was no authority by teachers that we must return to a school that transmits and with
discipline, that is, the return of the necessary authority of the teacher. and in respect for the teacher we must of course enhance vocational teaching, because there again, number of people felt that we wanted to produce intellectual -- question you want to and the single college system? >> the selective salting of vocational networks supports you, too. >> a lot of socialists -- a lot of ministers -- a lot of socialists want to know how many you'll have in your government. >> so you want to get rid of the college does them? system?ge >> this vocational process must be expanded and enhanced. for years and years now that we let our youngsters think that five years out of university they'll have a job where
increasingly it's not the case. i want university, the criteria to be based on merit and not just lottery draws. the socialists have decided to -- its incredibly fair in fact. selection today is done either through failure or just by a lottery system. it must be merit based and in passing a new university, i want secularism connected with the failure -- and i'm opposed to all visible signs in the company and universities. secularism must apply. everywhere, of course, in schools, where the neutrality -- but also in all public areas and spaces.
today the lower the level of teaching, the more there is selection through money and through birth. what it's family is -- >> let's move on. >> that is contrary to the republican ideal. >> let's move on. don't want to cut you off. both of you expressed your desire that this debate doesn't gone on for four hours. you wanted a 2- to 2 1/2-hour debate. so some simple questions. do you believe we should reduce the number of mp's and what do you think of people holding multiple offices at once? >> yes. i am in favor of reducing the number of parliamentians by a third in both the national assembly and the senate. and i intend to implement the reform quickly in my term of
office, and don't excluse a recourse to the referendum if the assemblies don't agree. i want to reduce by one third the number of parliament -- libertarianism. him.rliamentarian is it will not be possible for the elections in june, but for the next elections beyond june, proportional representation will better represent the public opinion. i am in favor of the law that produces multiple elected positions. at the same time, and i think we should limit parliamentians to three mandates. >> you're going to apply to those you're about to invest, these multiple offices? >> we're even going to do something that will embarrass you.
not only will there -- half of the candidates be new, but none of them will have a criminal record. >> we've applied it for 20 years. do you think you've invented sliced bread? >> i'm not a member of the scandal party. it is your party. >> the business party is mine. be careful with what you say. i hope we'll learn nothing in the coming days and weeks. you can lecture us. >> a lot of your friends have been trying to look for things. >> can i speak? no one understood the explanations you gave regarding your assets. >> the tax office -- the taxes have understood perfectly well. >> the president -- i am on authority of -- told a vote was called for in 2012. there was a petition during the rounds. a university professor asking you for clarification on 15 points. how you were able to match one
minimum wage a day -- >> the difference between you and me, you are under a judicial procedure. the higher authority have examined my file said there was no problem. independent institution. you are calling it when the judges don't find in your favor, you say they are dishonest. our judicial system must be -- >> i hope we will learn about your offshore bank account in the bahamas. i hope. >> we know that you underestimate your assets and you are currently going through criminal procedure. >> i'm not being pursued by the justice system. so there's one thing that differentiates. >> constant interrupting. >> one of us will have to
guarantee our institutions. we all aspired to that. you have threatened civil servants. criticized magistrates and judges when they don't find in your favor. you are unworsty of being the guarantor of our institution, because you're a threat to our institution. that's the problem. >> mr. macron, your problem is that you're in a current conflict of interest. i was a lawyer for a number of years and i know how the justice system works and i know how from time to time civil servants are asked for things that are not admissible. they're sometimes compelled to do that. it's unfortunate. i want to protect them from the influence of political power and their independence on the way they respect the law.
so i know very well what happens and how it happens. one day i'll explain to you. come and see me, i'll tell you exactly how its works. >> don't be arrogant. >> the referendum -- >> i won't go around seek your advice for any reason. our fellow citizens will not do so either. >> two minutes. >> you have shown yet again that you are unworthy by insinuating -- france deserves better than you. >> our judges are totally independent. the judges of the judiciary pinned political leaders and victims on a wall of -- tradem talking about a union.
>> don't politicize. >> don't add your unworthiness to the unworthiness of our institutions. rompingcted to your before germany, the judiciary, uim communities. >> i am standing and to be standing, i do not need to dirty other people. you are permanently floundering. you are slandering everybody. our country does not need slander. we need a effectiveness, efficiency, and peacefulness. workers that you qualify as illiterate?
the ones you purchased your suits from? the workers you said were alcoholics that you treated as criminals? >> i spoke to all of those people and visited them. voters,he 9 million thatand those of nikola duringempted to sully the second round. that is a lot of people, millions of french people you showed contempt for during the campaign. slanderous. >> the french that voted for competitor, i have never slandered them. say is thate to they are in the countryside, the towns -- >> you are talking about your
party. the party of the extreme right. the party that you lead. you lied on the social network. you forced hatred. journalists and you behave in a brutal way. look at the campaign. several times -- >> never. --people tried to threaten people participating in my meetings, it is the party of the front.- national it does not resemble our country, our france. long and voters. they are angry because they are disheartened. alsoe from a town that vote and they do not deserve your anger. you do not have any answers. you manipulate their anger, madame le pen. .ou do not want to understand
you do not understand because you do not want to understand. they deserve better. >> thank you, both of you. we need to wrap up. both of you wanted an opportunity to speak directly to the french people on a topic of your choice. we have talked about many subjects. subjectsthere are some we have not mentioned. i briefly referred to our overseas territories. in my view, they are an economic state for our improvement. and i would also like to say a word about disabled people. mrs. le pen wants to repeal does propose pragmatic solutions for disabled people in our country. this law, and i will preserve this law, is to have in each company, someone who helps
disabled people to have a normal working life. i want all of those that are disabled to have pragmatic solutions. first of all, i will increase the subsidies, the handicapped are currently receiving financial aid which is below the poverty line. the second measure -- i do not want disabled people anymore not to have any solutions. so, a lot of jobs will be created in the educational system to help disabled pupils. i will create jobs so that young children do not have to go abroad to be treated. and i want us to find concrete support disabled people in companies, businesses, or in special care centers. that is one of the priorities of my mandates.
there are thousands of fellow citizens that are disabled and have no solutions. they have no help. no support. you are right if you are so attached to disabilities. you should look at our product. i believe we have the most project that takes a count of all of the issues. i have included in my project, to grant a full tax rebate for a child with disabilities. that is what one promises and deliver ands not that would be the law of 2005 which in fact was never applied right any government, not even yours or any of the others.
and that is really what people with disabilities are waiting for. you say that we need centers for children with autism so they do not have to go abroad. that is obvious. for years now, it should have been done. thatlet me tell you manytic disorders allow schoolchildren to be in school, quite normally. and today, the socialists who have given many lessons of generosity in every circumstance often leave these children out of school because we are told they cannot be received. there is funding for mass immigration, for medical coverage, for illegals who were reimbursed far better than the french people are reimbursed who
have contributed. one out of every three french people cannot afford health care because we do not reserve national solidarity for our fellow citizens. if promise is that solidarity is not national, it disappears. and that is what is happening today. -- we have to respect the allotted time. this is still your wildcard. i am sorry, we need to calculate it right down to the second. if we give you another minute to your chosen topic, we won't need to give another minute to mr. macron. >> i have no chosen topic. it is a general philosophy, mr. macron. the france you defend is not france. it is a trading room in which war of allit is the
against all. french employees will have to fight to protect their jobs against workers. companies will have to fight each other to have the lowest wages or the longest working time in order to try to preserve markets. it is not at all my vision. i believe, once again, in solidarity. i think france is a nation with aculture and a people and hope that is the hope of being conditionstinue in that are respectful conditions. to trade with other nations in the world. to restore diplomacy. france was thrown into chaos by your friends, political friends. those that preceded them. and those supporting you in this presidential campaign who have
more or less to bear responsibility for the current situation. it is time to put things back in order and make the choice of france, of the territory you want to lead. it will be the place of all of the wars, of all conflicts and all competition. pen.ank you, mrs. le it you have -- mr. macron, you have more than two minutes. you each get two minutes without interrupting each other to wrap up. this was randomized. mr. let mrs. le pen, you will start. >> we say no to what you are. your tactic is to dirty the reputation of your adversary and you lie. you have no project for the country. you do not care about the
country. your project is to say to the french people that that person is a horrible person. he is dirty. falsification and lying. your project aims at exploiting lying and fear. that is what norse your father for decades and the extreme right and has made you what you are. that is why i do not want that for my country. my country is worth much more than that. the friends i want will not be divided. we must get out of a system that has coproduced. you are the coproduct of the system that you criticized. you are a parasite. you live off of it. the inefficiencies of the policies of the left and right, the ineffectiveness of the policies of the left and right nationalersh is the front. i can see the anger of our fellow citizens. i can feel it and see it and i want to bring answers by real policies of reform, of transforming the country.
the reforms have not been implemented for 30 years. with our citizens. so, -- i believe in a bottom of construction with voluntary organizations, popular totiatives, written changes fight against unemployment to improve the school system and transform the country. and to reconcile the country in five years. if i am elected president. if we win the battle against terrorism, unemployment -- and to fight against the divisions. i am worried about the state of our country. it -- you, i will do have no product.
our citizens can see it this evening. wantve years' time, i renewal of france. a real renewal of our country. a new face for our country. this is not an extreme right country. policies that have never -- implemented, i want adam l -- madam le pen. >> the country deserves the truth. that is the end of the debate. let me finish, very simply. i want to reconcile france. the opposite of what you want to do. i want a france that is really
transformed. >> ok, now, each of you will have the opportunity to wrap up. two minutes without interruptions from the other side. france objectively this evening, the french people have been seeing exactly what make runs -- what macron's project involves. is come upway france with its culture, heritage, and language. you do not want to defend a culture that does not exist. there is no free and independent country without borders. with people that deserve to be better treated than to be thrown into a fratricidal war that would allow some to obtain a maximum of profits for themselves. that is the france that you want. that is to say of france that is open to the four winds.
very often, i am the candidate of being open. you want to close factories, stations wards, police , hospitals. is there any -- the only thing that you do not want to close is precisely the borders. you do not what the french people to have a key. you want france to be open to mass immigration. the business leaders, your friends, want that to put downward pressure on wages. that is why you went to algeria to sell him i read a he highway -- to sell a migratory highway to france. it is the opposite of the union of france. and the french people. has a plan to do structure our country. to weaken it, perhaps because it will ease the work of the
financial powers. those from your side that are seeking to drive profit from our country to serve themselves and not the country, of course. >> mr. macron. >> you are lying about my project. mrs. le pen is not telling the truth. i do not want people to benefit from the failures and to exploit angry. france deserves better. countryry, france, our is going through a deep crisis, is due toisis which the failures of policies over 20 years. the failure of our ability to unify the country. and some people exploit this anger. i would simply like to say that i have listened to the doubts expressed by people and their anger. i want to answer with courage. courage with truth. i have never lied. i have not said i was going to
make gifts or promised to get things that is -- that are impossible to achieve. the commitment to maintain our schools, the authority in our school system. to maintain our work, our language. read my book. i grew up with the french language and the french culture which have a global presence. our country has always been strong in a strong euro. not a world open to the four winds but a world in which we can defend ourselves because we will have drained our fellow citizens. we will have a proactive approach. i refuse the spirit of defeatism. real reforms and real changes. and we will do that together my dear fellow citizens. and we will do so by being faithful. we have been a generous and open
country. the country that is the lights of the world. thank you. >> madam le pen. >> let us not get back into this. this is not a tv show. >> ok, carry on with your tv reality show. i want to preside over the destiny of our country. >> these were your rules. thank you for the debate. thank you to those of you watching at home. i hope this has provided you more enlightenment for the choice that sunday. have a good evening. >> welcome back to live from paris. this is paris 34. welcomed you are you deaf if you are joining us from c-span. you have just watched the first and openly debate between the two -- and only debate between the two presidential candidates. a heated to our 20 minute debate it was.
macronn and le pen -- and le pen showcasing their starkly different approaches for this country. immigration, the economy, and french identity. all key themes for the debate in which she called him arrogant and a candidate of the elite will he said that her strategy is to lie, divide the country, and sparked a civil war. with just four days away from sunday's decisive round of the ranch presidential election and this was the soulful to go head to head on live television. in the previous debates, the other candidates in the running also took part. according to the latest opinion poll, macron is hanging on a comfortable 20% presented -- 20% point lead over le pen. the eiffelas from
polling agency. tonight, might those figures change as a result of the debate? with just a few days away from the second round, the second decisive round of that vote. in the first round, 10 days ago, macron came out on top and le pen came in, in second place. go throughndidates to the second round in the french presidential election. the other nine were eliminated from the race. who came out on top? what might change as a result of the debate? why is this election so important for all of europe? good evening to you, mark. let me ask you what you made of the quality of the debate this evening? mark: it was a real fight. there were questions about how the candidates would behave, would they behave presidential,
with a be polite? absolutely not. it was nasty and feisty. they kept interrupting each other. they did not listen to the two journalists and what they were telling them. they went over time. verylve -- we saw two different candidates and they really went head to head literally. the were not far from insults that time. stopng one another, insulting me, stop lying. tell the truth to the french. on the variety of issues. marine le pen saying that was and still is a socialist. she kept on saying -- you were in the government of the atgoing president so you are socialist. some of the reforms taken by the government, although he resigned and really decided to run as an
independent candidate, she said -- this is your fault. she really tried to get under his skin. he kept his composure but also, thans much more offensive people would guess. people were saying that he is going to try -- he is a favorite . he went right back at marine le pen think she was a threat to france. the spirit of defeat. coming back to france. on her weakked her points, especially the economy and her proposals to drop the euro currency which she seems to be changing. and he really attacked her saying --what does it mean concretely for the french people? weakows that is one of his points. as a counter attack, she attacked him on the issue of islamic terrorism. some serioushed and grave accusations. she said essentially that emmanuel macron was beholden to to some islamic organizations in france.
and this is obviously a very grave attack at a time when we have seen terrorist attacks in france and when the threat is still present. this just illustrates how feisty this debate was. >> also, it was a debate with many firsts associated with it. from two candidates come the nontraditional french political parties. it is also the first time that a far right candidate has actually taken part in the second round debate. in 2002, when it was the father of marine le pen, jack chirac was going head to head with him, it refused to go into a debate on national television. this is a significant debate. not just for france. it could have repercussions for all of europe. >> in 2002, the father of marine le pen reached the second round. this was a major surprise because nobody had seen it coming.
the left was divided and therefore did not qualify. but this was more of an accident. in the second round, chirac won by more than 80% of the votes. here, it is a very different story as we just saw. during the pen is pulling around 40%. there was no time -- there was no way on earth that emmanuel macron could refuse a debate with her because, like it or not, she is a political force in france. her party won a number of election since the last presidential election. local elections. there was no way that emmanuel back run could refuse the debate. but obviously, those were two opposite visions on your that were on the slate tonight. and this is why it will have repercussions on your. the plan of marine le pen is to eventually leave the euro, drop the euro currency but also ask the french through a referendum if they want to leave the
european union. and in essence, if that happens, this would probably mean the end of the european union as we know it. we have already seen a major earthquake with the brexit. but great britain was not part of the euro. if france, one of the two pillars with germany of the european union decided to leave the european union, it is the end of the european union. obviously, this has a lot of consequences. by contrast, emmanuel macron really wants to relaunch the european union through a stronger, tight dark partnership with -- through a stronger, tighter aggregate with germany. and that is why at the end of the debate, marine le pen was quite feisty thing that the french have a choice. they can elect two women for france -- it is either me, or angela merkel. basically she said you are beholden to angela merkel.
you will do whatever she wants. i will make sure that france regains its pride and independent whether it is monetary or military in this is why you should vote for me. emmanuel macron is more the candidate that wants to improve the rules of the european union on immigration and the economy and tax and the environment, but he wants the european union to continue and survive. this was the major difference between the candidates tonight. >> let us cross now to central paris and speak to our correspondent cap or nicholson who is among the supporters of the far right. of theis headquarters national front. how do people around you feel marine le pen did this evening? catherine: it is not quite a jovial atmosphere here at the paris headquarters of the national front. andle listening attentively
then there was a lot of chatting. seemed the end, people to be relatively pleased with how marine le pen got on. i spoke with one national front candidate who is planning to stand in the upcoming parliamentary elections. he thought she did pretty well all the way through. at one point -- one point that did get a round of applause was when marine le pen used a phrase that is perhaps more associated with the other candidate, an on submissive sive france. well withdown pretty the national front supporters here. they also liked it when marine le pen hit back at emmanuel
macron attacking her on the legal investigations that are against marine le pen and the national front over alleged, fictitious jobs that the european parliament. people i have spoken to did not feel there was one knockout moment for marine le pen. >> she had some good one-liners as we have been discussing here in the studio. you mentioned a couple of them. what about the body language? the overall presentation of marine le pen? clearly, those around you would say she came off looking more presidential but they would say that, wouldn't they? absolutely. marine le pen on friendly territory here. however, i think there was a little nervousness among the crowd here. at the beginning, marine le pen did seem a little red and
flustered. she kept running her hand through her hair. people here seem to a little on edge at that. they were more happy when she got into her stride and could throw a couple of zingers at emmanuel macron. at one point, marine le pen was struggling with her files to find some notes about the selloff of french telecom company. many all macron saying that -- you will not find that in your files, mrs. le pen. people here seem to a little nervous for her at that point. but they did feel she got into her stride a little later on. don't forget that marine le pen is a lawyer. she is used to this kind of competitive talk. she is used to retaining a lot of information. she did seem to live up to that a little bit more by the end. >> do the -- will the people around you being best be going
home were confident that their candidate will win? what is your take? catherine: everyone i have spoken to through the course of , who turns up to any national front rally or marine le pen event, there is one chant -- we are going to win. this is a party that feels that it is on the ascendancy. scoresimproved their through elections, particularly through the last 20 years. as you pointed out, there's -- this is a historic first for a national front candidate to be involved in the second round presidential debate. her father got into the second round 15 years ago, but jack schreck refused to debate with him. so the fact that marine le pen was able to have this debate at all is a big deal to these national front supporters. >> thank you for that update.
here with me in the studio is the french politics editor, mark. concretely, what do you think tonight's debate could change ultimately? will it have an influence on the opinion polls? mark: i would say no because this -- there is a 20 point margin which is pretty significant between the candidates. ,f it was a tight race, yes everything has an impact, especially the debates where tens of millions of people tune in and they can really change their minds. , i doth the 20% margin not see and there was no clear winner tonight. those who are determined to vote for marine le pen will go to work with her no matter what she says or does. there was more uncertainty around the manual macron but i think he held his ground.
in previous presidential elections, for instance, especially 1974 and 1981. those were the first to elections that had a televised debate. it was a very close election. and the debates probably helped sway the election in favor of one and then the other, seven years later. here, i do not really think so. there were some moments of clarity but probably also some confusion. what was really, for me, striking was that we held a number of debates. binary elections within the conservative party and debates. primary elections within the socialist party and debates. and then there were debates before the first round and they were more or less civilized. tonight, that was not the case. the gloves came off. and it was a boxing match. and that may be surprising
because i did not think emmanuel macron would fight back as much. and i thought that marine le pen would try to look presidential and not be the attack dog that she has been, that her father was. and a maverick, far right party. that this was the case. when she, for instance, at one point, she said to emmanuel macron, you are the candidate -- i am translating roughly -- that is flat on his belly. lighting facedown before angela merkel and islamic groups, before the banks, before europe. to imposeone willing his will. and emmanuel macron said -- no, i am the candidate standing up for the standing up people that are trying to bring france back to the way it was. this was something i did not expect to see as starkly as we
saw tonight. >> indeed. went for pen very much the jugular with manual macron, using his credentials as a former banker against him. calling him a candidate of the elite. -- an listen to and asked extract of what she said just a few moments ago. >> i am the candidate of buying power. you, mr. macron, are the candidate of carving up france. it is important to understand the philosophy of your project. for you, everything is about buying and selling. people. in termsuman relations of what they yield, in terms of dividends. >> marine le pen attacking emmanuel macron saying his credentials as a former banker. the issue of terrorism and how to deal with extremism was very central also this evening.
the people of france are going to the polls on sunday with this country under a state of emergency. let us listen to what emmanuel macron had to say about the pens en's strategy on that point. borders isour useless. we need information. we need cooperation between our countries. this is why we need greater cooperation within the european union. you have proposed every single reform brought forth by the european union to combat terrorism. speaking onmacron the issue of terrorism. market, we were saying that this country is under a state of emergency. would inevitably come up in the debate and it occupied a central chunk of the discussion. immediately pen presented her argument about this.
saying that the menu on that crunch has no plan to fight terrorism. i will be tough. zero tolerance. close the borders. throwing everyone with a suspected terrorism link out of france. and this is how you deal with it , unlike and mental who had a more nuanced response. macron -- whoal had a more new ones to response. he was tolerating the support of an organization in france that is known to be close to the muslim brotherhood. those people were supporting you and you are beholden to them and that is why you're not fighting terrorism. she was really saying that emmanuel macron will not fight terrorism because he is in the there was that insinuation, of organizations that may have ties to them. this is a wildly exaggerated argument.
amanuel macron was taken back little bit. he did not expect such a vicious attack. knew that given the context, the state of emergency, an attack on a policeman a few days before round one, will probably help her with her core voters. but other voters more on the that were also concerned emmanuel electron is not tough enough on this issue. to ourus go back correspondent. to the supporters of emmanuel macron. did he stand his ground as people thought he would and hoped he would this evening? claire: the mood around me is pretty good. the supporters here it their candidate did a pretty good job. there were some anxieties that marine le pen might overpower
him with her catchy one-liners and her punchlines. but everyone i have spoken to so far this evening feel their candidate did a good job of pushing her back and standing his own ground. if you moments stood out for me. not pretendingm that i have a magicians power to fix everything magically. -- his strategy was to show that he was the one with a serious, well thought out, informed program. he was particularly strong when it came to the economy. he almost at times was giving marine le pen and economy lesson on how the global a commonly -- on how the global economy works. he may be criticized for being -- butzing but he was at he was absolutely holding his ground. wanted ad, he said he france of lights and not a
france of obscurity. always argued that he wants france to engage with europe and the world. >> while we are talking to you, we are watching emmanuel macron leaving the tv studios here in paris. there is a certain amount of speculation on where he may be heading. mikey show up to where you are might he show up to where you are? claire: there was some hope about that but that appears to be fading. one of his bodyguards was here earlier. fading fast. we do not know where he is going. people are being very tightlipped about it. it is looking less likely that he will make a surprise visit here later this evening. mark: were people surprised that
macron went right back at rain the pen? that was some speculation he would not go back and fight immediately and be drawn into a nasty fight. because, that is what it was. were their concerns that this was a risky strategy for him? days,: in the last few what we saw tonight reflects what i have seen on the campaign trail in the last few days. his language has gotten stronger. strongerks have gotten to match his rival in the supporters i have spoken to think that despite the fact that he notched it up several gears in the level of his attacks, they think he still came forward precise arguments and she was constantly on the defensive. some supporters even told me that they felt he destabilized her. which was beyond their wildest dreams.
they did not think their candidate could destabilize someone like marine le pen who is a former liar -- former lawyer who knows how to hold her own. he rose to his challenge. the people i have spoken to hear feel he was right to do that. since there are only four more days until the presidential vote so he needs to pull out all the stops. >> thank you so much for that update. claire williams at a party of the centrist candidate, make run. that is it from us. we will be back at the top of the hour. him atnk you, do you market. i will see you again shortly here on france 24. do not go away. we will haveday, live results of the french a presidential runoff election. this is the first time in modern french history that no candidate
from a mainstream party has advanced to the runoff. french --mulcast france 24's coverage. beginning at one -- at 1:30 p.m. eastern. >> the national law journal writes that when of the fourth court circuit appeals judges will likely not be involved in the may a travel ban hearing. that wilkinson is expected to recuse himself geoffreyis son-in-law, wall, is arguing the case for the trump administration. the court will release the list of judges hearing the case on the day of the argument. an audio stream will be broadcast live after c-span's edition to air the argument was approved. this is the first time that the fourth circuit will allow audio of the case to be live. c-span,have it here on live on monday at 2:30 p.m. eastern. virginia iseachin a