authorization. the committee marks of legislation with amendments starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span2. >> a hearing on combating terrorist threats in europe or it and violent extremism analysts outlined terrorism trends and provided recommendations or challenging online radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and the flow of foreign fighters. two house foreign affairs subcommittees hosted. it is one hour and 40 minutes. >> subcommittees will come to order. all members will have five days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the record, subject to the length limitation in the rules. i will make my opening statement.

over the past three months, three deadly terrorist attacks have struck the united kingdom. in additional five other plots were thwarted. these were the latest in a wave of deadly attacks that have since -- swept europe 2014. in three years there have been more than 36 attacks across western europe killing nearly 400 people, including a number of americans. the number of potential plots have skyrocketed, posing a challenge to european authorities. according to british authorities , they are investigating as many and 5000 suspected potential plots. while security services have been lucky all of the time to protect our freedom, the terrorists just have to get lucky once to threaten our sense of safety. terrorists are no longer focusing on sophisticated tax. everyday items such as kitchen come areelivery trucks

used as tools of terror. anyonel is directed to be it french police patrolling the streets or children and their families exiting a concert in manchester. they have targeted symbols of europe's rich culture. they have struck small towns, killed priests and h imams numeral communities. we cannot accept terrorism as the new norm. unfortunately, some are accepting terror as a way of life. the terrorists want to destroy our shared values and way of life. they want to kill americans as much as europeans and we must stand together with europe and fight this battle together. our european partners have put up with dangerous extremism too long.

groups calling for the end of the -- the end of democracy and supporting a brand of islam shared by isis operate freely across the european continent. are breeding ground for extremism and ground zero for terrorist recruitment. we must not allow western values to be exploited by those who seek to destroy those values and we must not allow the technology born of our free and enterprising societies to be exploited for murder by terrorist groups. terrorists use social media to spread their hate, to fund raise, recruit, and provide -- they even offer plots on how to filled bombs on social media. we must fight the terrorists on the battlefield and online. twitter, youtube, and facebook have taken steps to shut down extremists accounts. we stand ready to assist them to do more. others need to do a lot more,

specifically telegram, which has been described as the at of choice for jihadists, one of the services not doing enough. we will have to bring down -- bring the fight to cyberspace. last year i introduced the combat terrorists use of social media act requires strategy to get terrorists off-line. and we stillme law are waiting for the administration to provide critical strategy because lives are at stake. we must keep vital intelligence sharing channels with our allies open. since isis meet its advance across the middle east in 2014 a concerning amount of westerners have made their way to the terrorists battlefields. this is true in europe. as many as 5000 europeans of travel to iraq in syria. now that isis is losing on the battlefield, many of these foreign fighters they want to

bring the fight back home. a recent report on jihadist attacks in the u.s. -- 73% of -- as many as 82% of attackers have been previously flagged by law enforcement authorities. intelligence will help us to spot these individuals returning from battlefields. intelligence sharing can only be useful if we protect our borders from these individuals. one of the london bridge terrorists earlier this month was allowed to enter the united kingdom despite being put on a security watchlist. if someone has been flagged for terrorism, they should not be able to enter another country until the case has been closed. what is the purpose of placing someone on a watchlist if that person is able to travel freely? todaynce is more critical than ever before. terrorists will exploit our values and loopholes to maximize terror.ear, and

we must stand together and fight this threat with european allies because of threat to one is a threat to all. , will recognize mr. keating from massachusetts, for his opening statement. >> thank you, witnesses for being here. oe and i, as well as other members of introduced -- including countries that stood with us honoring undercoat -- article five commitments. we stand with them in solidarity of this recent and all too frequent loss of innocent lives in their countries. we are convening this hearing because understanding how to address this threat to our allies is not only an issue related to their security and our own but also an arena where there's an incredible opportunity to learn from and collaborate with european partners.

europe faces diverse challenges in the fight against extremism. the landscape is unique to each country with foreign fighter travel posing a significant greater threat for some whereas for others the individuals carrying out these attacks were radicalized without leaving the country. at the regional level, our allies commitments to open borders within the eu proved to be a challenging aspect within the context of the fight against terrorism. member states in eu institutions have taken this threat seriously . have a have been working diligently to improve collaboration around tracking individuals commit been radicalized. some models have relied on civil society organizations and

communities themselves investing collaboration between them and law enforcement. some have focused on inclusive strategies to address extremism by working closely with the women in these communities and with religious leaders. others have tried to address the threat of radicalization in prisons where one strategy to remove the threat by those are travel abroad backfired and instead exasperated -- exacerbated that threat. exploring different ways to remove extremist content online use to recruit vulnerable individuals and to take them terrorist financing and money-laundering schemes to make it possible for isil and others to fund operations the target civilians in these brutal attacks.

as we work with agencies, we can learn a lot from the efforts of our european friends. i look forward to hearing from witnesses about what we can learn from europe in their experiences with terrorism, and the efforts to combat it, as well as what we can do better in the united states to work with european partners to eradicate the threat of terrorism at home and abroad. thank the witnesses were being here and i yield back. >> thank the gentleman from massachusetts. recognizes -- that --re now recognizes chair ro >> i always want to call him .udge put all -- judge poe your honor, thank you for holding this hearing.

you to the witnesses as well. our partners and allies in europe have suffered at the hands of violent islamic terrorists. we can say that. for a long time are federal government not seem to be able to say that. the latest outburst of violence have beented kingdom shocking to all of us. the resilience of the british people is inspiring and reminds why america is fortunate to call the british people our friends. our commitment to confront and destroy evil forces in this world. these same forces seek to murder innocent people in order to terrorize people of the world into submission to their

phonetic brand of islam. while our strength and will remains consistent, tactics of extremist islamicists continues to evolve. as police and security services have been foiling elaborate plots and break up terrorist networks, isil and other terrorist organizations create new kinds of plots to require more ingenuity and flexibility to counter. such methods are hard for any security service to thwart. as we see today, police forces in europe are especially challenged. large migrant populations, some of which have remained famously an integrated into their new country, present a challenge that pits humanitarian impulse was to try to help poor refugees against the necessity of

protecting one's own populations. to some extent, these domestic thats are the ones european citizens and european governments will have to work out to their own satisfaction and find a balance between these humanitarian impulses and ideas of protecting their society. we americans must stand in solidarity against what evildoers do. against evildoers whom murder vulnerable populations to achieve their ends. i look forward to learning from the witnesses today on how the united states might be able to lend a hand to our european friends under attack and threat thathis faces us. of going pleasure

after one terrorist attack in boston with my ranking member at .he time we were there in order to see if there could be cooperation between russia and the united states in dealing with the terrorist threat. i would say that when we left i was very satisfied that the russian government was willing to work with us and they actually gave us information which was very valuable in analyzing what had happened in this massacre of people at the boston marathon. time,hat said, since that our relations with russia have gone down so dramatically that it has hindered us with working together with the russians to defeat this threat to the planet . we're talking about radical islamic terrorism, threat to

every good person on the planet, whatever country they come from. our interested in hearing witnesses to see if there's something that you believe that working with russia in trying to thwart radical islamic terrorism is something that should the owner to do list. with that said, thank you for being with us today. i look forward to hearing your testimony and i wanted to thank judge poe for calling this hearing and letting my subcommittee participate. >> the chair recognizes the working member, mr. meeks, for his opening statement. >> thank you for calling this hearing to address the growing allies ining with our europe, terrorism. it's not only a threat to allies

in europe. it is a threat to those outside nato as well. our freedom aquatic system. we need our allies together. we had a meeting today with the secretary-general of the u.n. when asked what his number one fear was, it was the international aspect of terrorism and how they can try to come together to create a global terrorist threat. important toand appreciate the effort to signal that this problem that we have specifically for our european allies. they are asking, how can we work together. it is especially important when we find that our president has found it difficult at times to talk about the importance of

such alliances. indicated,ing is after 9/11, that is the only time when article five was triggered. i would hope we speak with one voice in regards to our president not sending conflicting messages out about nato and the eu. it was disturbing when i saw the pew polling showing how drastically confidence in the united states president has eroded around the world come and not just in europe. a fractured transatlantic alliance allow space for terrorists to recruit and act both in europe and here at home. terrorism in europe is multifaceted threat, that while credible in deadly in some countries, have proven to be more nuanced in others. most recently in the united kingdom and france, we witnessed

a barrage of coordinated and other lone wolf attacks. , governingeurope politicians point to welcoming refugee policies in other european countries as a leading contributor to terrorism in order to push their agenda of stronger border controls. he have to go all the way back to russia to find similar examples of terror in eastern europe. in turkey, another nato ,lly that has been under attack seemingly received less attention -- this brings me to my first point of clarification. threat perception. politicians on all sides of the media are attracted to -- these answers taken center stage with the help of cell phones that can transmit videos across the world.

advanced technology has made the terrorize aspect of terrorism a lot easier and something that we must focus on. because the threat is very real. some may return home disheartened, given our authorities and easier opportunity to learn more about the attraction. we got to figure out the difference. one key aspect of preventing radicalization in the first place, which is something we should look at, is understanding the drivers that push a young man or woman into such radical territory. thankfully we have best practice examples that show us there is no one-size-fits-all solution, and that the problem is evolving . italy, country with thousands of refugees arriving on it shores, is able to accept them in a humane manner, does her proper

status, and move the process along. the process is by no means perfect, yet with the help of international humanitarian organizations are absolutely essential. i believe despite our bumps and bruises we can help european and integrate communities into their societies. as a result, some communities are forgotten or isolated and susceptible to radicalization. we've got to focus on what we can do to try to prevent those from being radicalized. i look forward to engaging with witnesses to discuss how the u.s. can learn from and help european allies who are under attack.

back.k you and yield >> all members may have five days to submit questions, statements, for their record. all witnesses prepared statements will be made part of this record. i asked that is -- each witness keep your presentation to know more than five minutes. if you see a red light in front of you that means stop. i will reduce each witness and give them time for opening statements. -- i will introduce each witness and give them time for opening statements. terrorism,n homegrown violent extremism and countering violent extremism. mr. simcox is a margaret thatcher fellow at the heritage foundation trust margaret thatcher center for freedom. he specializes in counterterrorism and national security policy. is a senior research

fellow for counterterrorism at the national defense university. recently left a position as tist -- missienc georgia homer is the director of cd at the united states it does -- institute of peace or she oversees the laplace subjects. mr. hughes, you five minutes. distinguished members of the committee, it's a privilege to be invited to speak today. europe is facing a sustained threat from the islamic state. estimated more than 5000 europeans are travel to syria to join isis. the percentage of european fighters overturn -- estimated

as high as 30%. in the united states, some 250 americans have attempted to travel to isis controlled territory. of the 250, more than 60 us-based individuals who successfully migrated to syria. is not a typical profile of an american or european isis recruit. they vary and socioeconomic background, age, gender, location and degree of religiosity. despite recent territorial losses, and continues to maintain sympathizers who feel an obligation to help the caliphate treated this is one of the main factors that explains attacks that have hit the united states and europe in recent months. since 2014 and what we have identified 51 attacks in europe and north america. the majority of perpetrators were citizens of the country in

which they committed the attack. only 5% of those are carried out the attacks were refugees or asylum-seekers. less than 10% were directly ordered by isis to commit the attacks. in most cases the attackers were isis inspired with no explicit direction. those that did commit the attacks were more lethal in their attacks. perpetratorsof the who pledged allegiance to isis before their attacks and after attacks. isis took credit for about 40% of them. france has experienced the highest number of attacks, at 17. followed closely by the united states at 16. attacks in the u.s. tend to be more unstructured, spontaneous in europe. ,ven though some of them orlando and san bernadino, being good examples, have been no less

deadly. there have been 395 jihadist in 2016.rrested members are lower in the united states where 18 individuals were in 2014. and just 36 in 2016. the united states does not seem to possess extensive militant organizations that provide logistical support to individuals drawn to isis. jihadist propaganda continues to be easily accessible through online platforms for the last 10 years. it has played a role in radicalizing westerners. with the advent of numerous social media applications to would-be recruit could access real-time support and have a stronger sense of a wider -- that they are part of a wider network.

employed virtual entrepreneurs who use social media to connect people -- reaching out to americans and .uropeans they were involved in at least in thedomestic plots u.s.. technology companies have addressed isis online activities in two ways. content based regulation and counter messaging. the current approaches by twitter, google, facebook, theosoft, may not address new types of encrypted channels now commonly frequented by violent history missed. even though online radicalization phenomenon receives attention, offline dynamics matter great deal.

perhaps more than in the u.s., physical networks in europe remained of significant importance. far right movements in europe have taken advantage of the recent wave of isis inspired attacks in europe to mobilize followers. groups tend to ignore distinctions between islam, m.lamism, and jihadist we have seen how jihadist and extreme far right have set off each other and use this to assist in their recruitment efforts. this dynamic of reciprocal radicalization is a troubling trend that needs to monitored. thank you for an opportunity to testify. simcox? >> thank you.

think you're the opportunity to testify here today. the views i expressed are my own and do not represent the official position of the heritage foundation. my goal is to highlight the severe threat islamist terrorism poses to europe. there are several aspects of the threat i'll discuss today. the first is a scale. recently there has been much -- moston devastatingly, members of the cell that committed isis attacks -- killing 130 and wounding 268, have traveled to syria from trained withht and isis and returned to europe to carry out an attack.

this self-contained isis members who entered europe from syria after making false asylum claims . while the majority of syrian refugees are not tied to terrorism, germany in particular has seen an uptick in the threat it faces following the recent influx. an eightfold increase in plots the towing 2015 in 2016, largely due to a surge of those involving refugees. germany faced more islamist plots left here than it did in the entire 2000 to 2015 period. as the u.s. plus experience with the attacks and san bernadino in orlando come european governments have a significant problem with homegrown radicals. to give an ideal of the scale -- an idea of the scale, dk has approximately 22,000 suspects on the radar. assessments will never before proof and there always --s the possibility that

substantive than that. -- slips through the net. data from my heritage research demonstrates a number of plots europe has faced since 2014 has risen year on year. there can 15 separate countries commonly,most belgium, france, germany, and u.k.. this year, that the multiple attacks on traditional targets in the u.k. in france. link -- a truck attack in stockholm and an italian to an easy and inspired by isis stabbed multiple police officers and soldiers at a train station in milan. , it'sthere are trends

impossible to build that catch all profile who will carry us these attacks. it's not just young men. was 52.asood my research has shown an uptick in plotting by teenagers and girls. 2016, a radicalized 15-year-old german girl in contact with isis stand a police officer in hanover. you have those who have criminal records and those are do not. those are trained with terrorists and those who have not. the third aspect is the range of .eapons used by terrorists since november 2015, belgium, france, germany, and u.k. have -- mayor isnities

not been a lack of willing volunteers to carry out suicide the attack inding manchester. a multitude of plots involving firearms, knives or similar edged weapons such as machete or ask. .he use of vehicles there have been no publicly disclosed instances in which you kill her attacks have been reported by authorities. we have seen consequences of this in nice, berlin, stockholm, london and elsewhere. over 1400 people were injured and over 300 people killed in islamist attacks in europe in the past three years. , the grave danger that terrorism poses to europe is likely to increase. the u.s. must work with europe to defeat these threats. iq for inviting me to discuss this with you.

-- thank you for inviting me to discuss this with you. >> dr. cragin. >> i would like to thank the chairs and ranking members for inviting me to testify on the subject of the threat posed to europe and the u.s. by the islamic state and iraq in syria. had terrorist groups adapt and counter terrorism. much of this research has focused on what is often referred to as foreign fighters, or individuals who leave their homes and travel abroad to fight . my testimony provides detailed research. into the global spotlight in june 2014 after its spokesman announced a newly formed islamic caliphate. to consolidate control over territory within syria and iraq but also established provinces outside the labonte.

isis has 25 provinces in 11 countries. the apparent focus by isa's on control over the territory cause many to conclude at the time that isis was less interested in attacking the west that al qaeda . this has proven to be false. the first successful attack by foreign fighter returnee took place in may 2014 at the jewish museum in brussels. the perpetrator was product -- part of the cell overseen by cap -- the overall pattern of attacks by isis reinforces this conclusion. between june 2014 in may 2017, isis conducted nearly to a 25 attacks outside syria and iraq. were external operations or attacks outside those provinces.

isis has been more aggressive in external operations that al qaeda. only 10% of a kind is attacks between 2008 in to them 10 -- in countriesplace in outside of affiliates. to truly understand this thread, we need to examine successful and failed attempts. the numbers become more grim. 58% of all isis external operations, including attacks in plots, have taken place in the las west. operatives,ine core seven foreign fighter attorneys to iraqis -- two iraqi's. seven of these recruits were foreign fighter ees.rn

the paris attacks acted as a catalyst for the west. spain has retained 159 individuals and interrupted at least six plots. the u.k. has detained almost 300 and four of 18 plots. the combined efforts by law enforcement intelligence and military forces led to a plummet in the number of successful external operations by foreign fighters in late 2016. this predates the mosul offensive. it tells me the u.s. and its allies have come up with the correct formula to minimize the threat posed by foreign fighter returne. this is hard to see how formula can be applied by less

affluent countries. proven itself to be adaptive in the recent attacks in england underscore there is more to be done. i mention successful attacks by four and fighters plummeted in august 2016, but the overall trend in external operations continues to go up. as attacks by foreign fighters plummeted they were replaced by -- sometimes referred to as virtual entrepreneurs. virtual planners identify local recruits, introduce them to individuals with technical expertise, and help pick the target. the final question of what more can be done. i don't want to leave the impression that we solve the problem in the west by foreign fighter in tourneys. the most urgent need is to take this formula developed by the

u.s. and european allies and expanded geographically. beyond this need, we need to fit this and other programs within a wider trends regional strategy that includes a global architecture to address the threat from foreign fighter returnees and virtual planners. >> ms. homer. mr. chairman.oon, figure for the opportunity to testify today. my comments reflect around views and not necessarily that of the u.s. institute of peace. i began my career working on terrorism in europe for the fbi. the tail end of a wave of thatst violence in europe included kidnappings, bombings, and assassinations, generating fear andfeelings of outrage we are experiencing today. the wave of violence in europe today is different to read the groups are less cohesive.

we are witnessing not only directed attacks itself inspired -- but celfin's hard. the ideology is rooted in religious militancy. the targets today are more indiscriminate. there's more of a willingness on the part of attackers to die. what has changed has been the response. --nter in this counterterrorism investigations are more sophisticated. there has also been an increasing awareness and effectiveing that counterterrorism operations are critical but insufficient without investment in prevention. law enforcement and security services cannot anticipate and disrupt every potential attack, especially low-level attacks involving one man with a truck and a knife.

address the issues and grievances that push them in that direction is a critical investment of american time and resources. u.s. ip conducted research on understanding why coso had one of the highest rates per capita of foreign fighters traveling to support isis. the answer was that a robust in for crude -- recruitment infrastructure use messages -- messages compelling due to frustration with their own lives and in inherited legacy of conflict and violence. coso thou preventing new recruits from forming radical groups from flourishing. sovo plus experience illustrates how important it is to have effective programs and strategies to prevent individuals from joining in

rejoining groups once they are out of prison. i would like to offer that there are critical areas in which efforts to prevent radicalization could be effectively advanced in which european partners have made significant progress. increasing public awareness and preventingin radicalization. preventing early-stage radicalization, especially for those have never engaged in criminal activity, is out of reach of law enforcement and more appropriately addressed by -- much of this work is led by ngos but supported by municipal governments in the eu. programs --vel intervene appropriately when they show signs have proliferated in europe. these efforts go beyond countering the ideology that into pins -- underpins these groups to address the relationships that make you that

horrible to recruitment in the first place. ideology is how they are recruited, not why they joined. effective criminal justice and law enforcement procedures. an individual's touch point with policenel justice -- play critical roles in deterrence. the establishment of accountable -- many europeann -- law enforcement services working to prevent recidivism. after prison, many individuals return to the same environments in which they radicalized. if they do not engage in violent ly, effectivect

reintegration programs are imperative. europe has a number of programs developed to address members of biker gangs and quasi-groups. the u.s. has been a leader in efforts to prevent violent extremism and continue to in thisallies in europe role in prevention. onthank you for staying time. we all appreciate that. the chair will reserve questions for last. i recognize the chairman of the european subcommittee, mr. rohrbacher.

>> thank you for being here, and thank you your honor for holding this hearing. you have some information for us, i am sure. how much spying is being done of our government of our own people. every time it came for a vote, i voted against having more spying on american citizens. we are faced with this decision. we allow more and more people to tap our telephones or whatever they do, go into our internet systems and things. do you think that is a wrong vote on my part? am i wrong for not agreeing to allow the law enforcement and our protectors to actually have a greater leverage in spying on american citizens who might be

related to someone who migrated here 10 years ago or something question mark who wants to answer that question? thato wants to answer question? ask a i will take it since it is an easy one. -- >> i will take it since it is an easy one. that is a lot of the problem, the issues we are given with in europe and some parts of america where you have an influx of information whether it is social media, wiretapping, things like that. but not an ability to act on that and not knowing when to act. to the extent we can limit the data to have it be exactly what we need and help bring down the level of general -- >> we are cooperating with

europe. are we involved in spying on european citizens in order to track them these terrorists that we would not be allowed to do in our own country? anybody know the answer? go for it. >> i know the european government, especially the ones , the uk'sy close to certainly is one of those countries, are tremendously grateful for the help the u.s. offers which has far outstripped that of the vast majority of european countries. i tend to think, and we have a lot of these debates in the u.k., the liberty, security debate is obviously a very tricky one. i tend to think a lot of the oversight is robust.

community oversight seems to be quite robust compared to many of the european governments. complaining about american spying but then in private, grateful for some of the intelligence passed on. >> i think it is highly likely and i am not getting the details now but probably a hind closed conductingwe are extensive listening and hacking, if you will, overseas and we are sharing that with our european allies. i would hope we are. let me just ask and go to this one other issue before my time comes up, i mentioned that the ranking member and i went to russia and we met with the head fsb iir renamed kgb -- guess they call it. they were very generous with us

with information. they actually give us some information that we believe give us a better understanding of the boston marathon bomber and where he was coming from and his family background. and by the way, had they sure that with us before hand we might have put them on a higher level of observation and, do you think we should be working with the russians? let me just tell you i personally, of course i am a little old enough congress, we need to be working with russia to defeat radical islam because that threatens their people and it threatens our people. there is no reason in the world i think because we have disagreements and other parts of the world that that cooperation should be in some way shut off. do you have any thoughts on that? please feel free. >> i will take that one.

>> we're running out of time but i think you will give you time to answer. and you can answer the question about russia. >> over the past few years i've been involved in some diplomacy discussions with russian academics and we wrestled with this issue as to what extent can we cooperate. i will just tell you from my impression from that, we kept getting bogged down. we were academics, not policy makers. we kept getting bogged down because as an american, i am comfortable with a certain amount of instability in pursuit of democratic values. so i am probably more risk- seeking. i am willing to accept some risk with democratic values being an established and my russian counterpart, the ultimate goal was stability. so we kept getting robbed down in these -- bogged down in these

areas. to this.g came down i would offer that to you as you think about the practicality. come to aot seem to lot of solution on it. >> it is worth trying though, right? right it was an interesting experience. >> the gentleman from massachusetts. >> thank you. this is a great hearing. between this committee and homeland security, i am in off. i spent a great deal of my time looking at issues of terrorism. it is a complex area with simple solutions. we are spending some today in an area where i am very intrigued and we have not come close to maximizing our prevention efforts. i was listening to miss homers testimony as a former fbi person and my own experience as district attorney. there similarities in how we approach crime areas and

terrorist crimes as well. when i was in europe a couple years ago the hollands institute was doing a study trying to find common characteristics among terrorists, people who were radicalized. they were dealing with things like whether there was a male role model, strong male presence in the family and some of these characteristics and much less scientific. i remember testimony of the former fbi director comey in front of our committee describing these people as "poor souls." but there is something to that. can you tell us from your experience, i could tell from your testimony, some of the common characteristics that are there? that make people more prone to being radicalized? the oeste answer to that question is that it is

unique per individual. i mean, there are some common trends that make people more vulnerable. for instance, we find in the european context it has to do with issues of assimilation, opportunity, exposure to violence, exposure to criminality and all of those issues make people more vulnerable to recruitment. i think that the challenge when you are dealing with such a large full of potential recruits is that it is outside the reach to positivelyment identify them especially when you're dealing with such low level attacks. >> right. so how can we empower? i think the committee as a whole right here is strong in support of empowering women and mothers to be able to recognize this radicalization as it occurs. are you familiar with any of those? >> i am. there is one called women without borders and has done groundbreaking work in this

space and their approach is to work with mothers to help them understand early warning signs of radicalization in their families so they might intervene the roll is appropriate for the parents and when it is appropriate to pull it off enforcement. >> we had programs alternative prosecutions for young people, certain juvenile ovation areas, there is that opportunity at an early stage for law enforcement to deal with a lot of these issues that correspond. in any case, here is a question. when you look at europe and the u.s. in particular, it is the amount of radicalization that occurs in prisons in europe versus the radicalization that occurs here. it occurs in both places but it is not even close in scope given my knowledge in this area. why is it so much more of a problem in europe.

why is it so commonplace in europe as opposed to the u.s.? what are the factors and what are they doing to correct that? ?nyone >> well, the question is that in europe the release rates are than in the united states. the example i give is somebody like who carried out the brussels 2016 attack if had been previously convicted for a bank kalashnikov attack on a police officer, in brussels i think he got only three years. he was a very quickly and carried out the attacks. the european governments are trying all sorts of different strategies to deal with this. france has tried isolating certain high risk people. certain radicalized is but that

has not really worked. i think it is down to numbers. muslim --tion of muslim population in prisons is in disproportionate comparison to the overall population and i know that lots of countries are wrestling with different strategies and nobody has been very successful. we need to keep experimenting to be right. >> mr. hughes? >> in terms of the u.s. context, we tend to segregate our -- and use administrative measures to separate them like super max. so if they are radicalized, the guy next to them is already radicalized. so the average prison sentence for americans are about 13 years. we've had two folks open

release. we will have to grapple with a large number of americans who arrested for a isolated activities and are getting out of jail in the not-too-distant future. we haven't figured it out, their eyes glaze over when we talk to them about these questions. we need to roll up our sleeves and figure this out. i asked you why gentleman. the chair recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, mr. duncan. tracks i think the gentleman from texas wrote in the searing. -- this hearing. from --nk the gentleman my concern has been ice all operatives infiltrating muslim migration into europe that we saw last year, the last 18 months. a lot of those work military-age men coming into europe. countries like hungry are recognizing their own sovereignty and closing their borders but you don't have that throughout europe. you are seeing the free flow

was exploited by a believe one of the brussel attackers or somebody headed to brussels who had a car load of automatic weapons. so, a lot folks i represent are concerned about those folks getting to europe and staying long enough to gain citizenship and being able to come to this country sometime in the future, not present-day but sometime in the future. i so has been in existence for 26, 36 months and so we are getting into that timeframe where citizenship can be earned. both could possibly come to the united states with a visa waiver program. dr., you have done a lot of work regarding the threat of returning foreign fighters. europeans have gone to europe, libya, and come back. we just saw that in england.

how can congress better understand this and fight back against that threat? >> i will start with the refugee issue. outside of the preferences, about 3% of the attacks had a refugee involved in them. i am not saying it is a nonexistent threat at it is a very, very low threat relative to inspired individuals who are already citizens. those directed by foreign fighter returnees and directors. my tendency as a counter terrorism professional is to look at the virtual planners and foreign fighters. i do think that intelligence cooperation, coordination with law enforcement and military activity has improved significantly. i would say since 2016, late

2015 so we are on the right track. my biggest concern in that area are the foreign fighter returnees that will be going to north africa. tunisia, we said all of europe 6500 and tunisia has is awfully close to europe. that is my concern. they simply do not have the capacity nor the intelligence assets that we have. so if you're interested in helping out in europe, the next step is actually to broaden that cooperation and try to find a way to help egypt help tunisia, help jordan to a certain extent make sure they can absorb and reintegrate their foreign fighter returnees and those are very very large numbers that are coming home. >> i will do on that. we already have seen, but you think we will see more border control measures put in place?

less free travel? we've seen germany, france to a little but of that. -- definitelyry hungary. at least through their countries. do you think europe will address the open border situation and see more of a return to border controls or do think it will continue with the open border situation that we have now? dr. craig, i will address at you. whichever one wins to answer but we are on the clock. >> i have not spoken to european officials so i do not know what they intend to do. official,erterrorism that is one part. in my research, the more you can push up the threat and deal with it outside of europe in sort of north africa hand labonte, that is better than dealing with border issues when they are crossing back into europe, quite frankly.

>> middle east and north africa, we've seen fighters coming from libya, morocco, portugal, spain. italy has a huge problem. people getting on rafts in libya to multi-aunt and malta, the european union. the fact is, there are already people in europe to be radicalized, already people have traveled to the middle east through migration. there are middle-aged men who could've been inspired before they even left. every problem in the country. what we are we've seen as people inspired in europe, maybe they came from north africa at some point but they have been there long enough. so the issue today are the people that are in the country. their ability to travel around and they are getting inspired through online measures. mr. chairman, i have those are questions they are asking themselves. we're not going to solve a but i am glad they are asking it.

chairman.ou mr. it has been a very interesting hearing. something we have got to really dig into. let me just try to go a little bit further i get -- i guess from what mr. duncan was just talking into because i hear a lot of folks talking about the way to prevent terrorist attacks is by banning immigrants and refugees and individuals from coming back into or going into various different countries. so i guess my first question is, do you think by banning immigrants -- and i think you said -- ms. craig, that it was only 3% of individuals who were not coming from the war areas. those who were returning from

battle over there. but the actual refugees and immigrants, do you think that i banning all refugees and immigrants, will that cut down variousrism in these areas in europe or any place in the world for that matter because terrorism is all over the place now. >> the way you successfully pushed together a successful terrorism strategy is you have a lot of layers and security measures throughout. my data suggest external operations by isis outside of its provenance, there are 25 provinces, 3% concluded somebody who had come to the refugee system. so it is nonzero, it is something. and then you think about, where do you put your researches -- resources? devoted to intelligence

operations, military operations? that is sort of what we are talking about. as a counterterrorism professional, i prefer to see more devoted out toward investigations and military operations than border security. that does not mean you don't do border security, i am just talking about relative resources and what you devote to what type of operation. >> let me ask because one of the things i've also seen for example in the western balkans when we talk about whether the space of high unemployment, disenchantment and religious extremism can help resent a dangerous recipe. so what can be done in this pathways help secure towards nato and the e.u. minimizing the risk of terror in

those areas. >> i know one issue that is very thertant and i think having balkan countries fully beegrated in europe would significant. also, acknowledging the threat is not just for returnees but for people already in the country who have not left who may be inspired to engage in different acts. that speaks to not just bolstering law enforcement intelligence operations but also to having a commensurate resource commitment to prevention. excellently me as, as i talked to some of my friends, some constituents here in the united they do say the words we utilize in the united states and in europe and others are important. words are important.

recruithelp recruiters individuals. do you think words matter and title for example, my friend from california said we are free to now say "radical slam and terrorist." or i heard mr. simcox, he indicated, he used the phrase terrorist"- islamist terror."d to "islamist does that matter? affrontnk it is all an regardless of the ideology and while it helps us to understand the recruitment dynamics and counter those ideologies to know

exactly what they are, i am not sure there is a very big difference ultimately between violence inspired by marxist ideologies in the 1980's or the separatist groups are in that time as well from what we see today. so while i think it is important as part of our understanding and in an piece of a layer counterterrorism shortage in, it is only one piece of the puzzle and overanalyzing it will keep us away from the other pieces of the puzzle. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from virginia. >> thank you mr. chairman. i am curious because we spent a lot of time on the entity that i called daesh or isis. some people call it a sole. isil.e people call it my understanding is this area they call labonte would include

north african nations, currently libya, egypt, the island of cyprus and greece, etc.. is that roughly historically correct as to what the labonte would mean -- as to what the levant would mean. iraq, turkey., in the broader historic sense. so if you were to refer to isil you would be giving a larger geographic footprint as opposed correct? ranks i think this is a semantic thing like, do you use the word they used to call themselves, do you use the word they use themselves, etc. spent a lot having of time it strikes me unless you enemy, bolster your

unless you wish to strengthen , forenemy in the world team, right?v traditionally, you don't want to build your enemy up, right? i guess what i am driving at is levant would give them greater territory. i would like to speak to pfizer. a recent reports set up to 5% of upstream during the last administration was actually used against american citizens. the code allows us to use pfizer because it orders american citizens be masked wherein there identities might have accidentally been associated because why? we do not know who called home? it could be a wrong number. it could be a call for totally

unrelated reasons. if in fact this is the case and that shakes the confidence of people like myself and my colleague and fisa, does that not also run the risk of undermining our obligations, mr. don't? mr. simcox: i just know enough about the fisa 702 regime to answer. >> mr. hughes, do you have any opinion on that question mark >> no. >> i would submit, if we weaponize foreign intelligence surveillance act processes that have existed in this country since 1909, some for 38 years against americans that people like myself and others who are reasonable and appreciate the love rights, specifically the fourth amendment might then rail against the use of those particular intelligence gathering techniques. and if we rail against those particular intelligence

gathering techniques, gather we would gather less intelligence and therefore be less effective in stopping the next attack. so i would cement the preps the blood of americans who were victimized and attacked is missed because the priority administration or individual determined it was reasonable and worthwhile to completely subvert the intent of the foreign intelligence surveillance act and bus congress acted appropriately to defend the legitimate privacy expectations but thatan citizens entity or actor might have blood on their hands. >> let's switch briefly to the muslim brotherhood. a source from probably four or muslimfferent sources of brotherhood, i know there is a bill that would designate the muslim brotherhood as a terrorist organization before this august. i understand the political sensitivity is the muslim brotherhood engages in thing certainly not directly related to terror, but i would ask if the muslim brotherhood was -- and dying in the

name of allah is our goal, can in person say it was a expectation they would commit terrorist acts? mr. all caps? mr. wilcox: i think one of the main concerns is whether you're going to be able to legally designate the brotherhood as a terrorist entity. >> either subordinate entities to the brotherhood that might be able to be singled out that would be more accurate? sorry, he was nodding so he got the call. i've there are number of linked organizations you to take a hard look at. ask mr. chairman i am out of time. i'm going to ask if you please contact my office with a list of subordinate entities that might be more properly designated. >> and i would ask to provide that list to the chair and the chair recognizes the gentlelady from california. >> thank you and thank you to

our witnesses. i am a new member of this committee. prior to coming here, i was on homeland security. i was a local mayor. in the state legislature in california i spent a lifetime studying -- a lot of time studying and dealing with prison issues in my district. i have a women's prison, a men's risen, and a juvenile detention which is now being closed. so going back to a question that was asked by ranking member keating regarding our prison system versus the european incarcerated, if ebola in europe are spending less time in prison than incarcerated people here in the u.s., wouldn't that be less time they have within a prison system

to recruit? >> well, i think part of the problem is people who don't go into risen as radicals but come this is way so especially relevant when you think of isis connections to the criminal nexus and their ability to recruit from criminal attorneys because you have very influential people within prisons, let's take for example, it a long track record being able to connect with people have gone in for somewhat petty crimes who will be released in .ix months-two years >> so, institutions, we try to separate mexican mafia for example with other gangs.

bloods and the crips, we try not to hold them in the same area. is this different than what is happening in europe? >> in europe they have experimented with different approaches but i think there is definitely a problem when you have had keep radicalize those in and among the general prison population increasing radicalization. the problem is you get some groups who are concerned if you stop wanting terrorist-only wings. there are complaints you are creating a british guantanamo bay or something like that. i don't find them to be persuasive but those of that sort of thing shoot here about on the other side. craigslist took about community policing. timepent a lot of representing a city that has igh crime in --

-- there is a lot to be said about at-risk youth and the lack of services and the lack of education and opportunities. here in the u.s. i think at least the muslim community with it my district is very much integrated. very much a part of the quote that, you know, is the make-up of our very diverse culturally ammunity and they are seen as positive influence in our community. not a negative influence. they tend to want to work and be part of the solution with law enforcement and fbi officials. so in the case of san bernardino, that really comes out. i have lost constituents. i used to represent the city of san bernardino is a senator and

it troubles me that there were not real signals out there from a young mother with a young baby couldyoung father, what we do? what is the lesson we could learn? certainly without having to racially profile someone just because of the way they look. will jump in. george has done some really good work placing things. i was in the u.s. context, community engagement is one step. used to do community and engagement mostly in mr. keating's district which was to go to a mosque with 300 people in a room, talk about , terrorism.on it has to be human stories. how do you reach a kid before they cross the line.

when you look at the u.s., individuals see something concerning but do not know what to do with it. a have not provided it as government or communities, alternatives to a suggestion, intervention program so if you where someone is on the law enforcement radar for a number of years, we cannot be a them off somewhere else. our european partners have these interventions in place and are behind it.ources >> the chairman recognizes the gentlewoman. >> thank you. and thank you for holding this meeting. given the recent attacks, especially the three taking place in the united kingdom combating terrorism is increasingly important to the united states and our allies across the atlantic. 70% of the arbitrators in europe

are citizens of the countries they attacked. this is an indication radicalization is taking place within countries and the united states. the former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy testified before congress that other countries could better deal with terrorist operations in the united states. so is the current global thegement center being run best messenger for counter extremism and how should we be coordinating for counter extremist popping ganda? whoever feels they can answer. >> i will jump in on the global engagement center. we see a number of integrations there. i tend to be a believer the united states should not see the

space. i am ok with the stamp as long as you still have the black, white, and gray going on. we are seeing an evolution away from the broad-based, here is a 32nd video i'm you to to how do we move people to off-line ,ntervention boards or groups ngos in europe and other places where we can start to bring people back into default. i would hope they move away from large-scale programming to more targeted programming so you can and say itectiveness is working or it is not working and shift gears. dogs i think you need to have an approach that is flexible to change if necessary region by region, not a cookie-cutter strategy you can implement across any area of concern.

i agree the government should see this. i know people would say somehow it is imperfect but i think while that may be true, what is perfect? i hope the u.s. remains engaged. >> ok. say the message given should be locally and originated, rooted in having partnerships in the countries that are the recipients of those messages. >> in, do you feel in light of changes that have gone on in the united states, other countries feel confident enough, like our european allies? >> i think that depends country to country. >> i still think there is -- speak to european

governments on this, do not think you should overestimate the distrust coming from europe. people still want to work with the u.s. on these issues and trust that still exists. not dependentare on one party. -- new -- ersations >> i recognize the gentleman from california, mr. sherman. >> we in the united states per capita face far less islamic

extremism from plot hatched on our own soil which of course excludes 9/11. what is it about what we are doing that is better or worse in terms of assimilating our muslim american communities and not to engage? mr. simcox? mr. simcox: there are some things. is quite simple and i hope not a trade example. the word you used, as a malaysian, is not a word that is ever used in europe. >> is thought to be politically incorrect? >> yeah. about,s a lot of debate should we really expect people to integrate?

this is how you allow parallel societies do develop in the way that we have, unfortunately, in europe. i think there is an incredible reluctance, still, to even talk about -- i mean the word assimilation just is not used. there are a whole host of other u.s. , for example the i think there is a whole host of things you can debate. i think integration is a kind of interesting one. >> i would point out we as a country have a longer time of assimilating people while they still retain their traditions. -- there's a tendency to think if you are doing better than someone else that everything you are doing is right and everything they are

doing is wrong. what can we learn? what is your of doing right that would make sense to do here in the united states? anyone who once to answer. >> sure. europe is spending a lot more resources and time on the prevention agenda. they have a lot more programs diversion,out intervention, before people at early stages of radicalization. this is something the interview has invested heavily within. they have a lot more programs than we do. >> yet, they have the bigger problem. dr. crane question or >> if i could just add, not to pat ourselves on the back too much or get too critical of europe, their networks, and this was mentioned earlier, exist all the way back to the conflict and bosnia. said these networks of recruitment and radicalization have been around a lot longer

than we've had in the united agents of part of the x nation -- >> let me get this straight, nato, predominantly christian heritage organization went to war with a christian country, serbia. people of bosnia and kosovo, the two -- two of the three muslim majority states in europe today. godset of people saying, my , here nato is living up to its values and defending people regardless of their religion, instead somehow the narrative was now it is time to blow things up in the countries that andd the people of kosovo bosnia? the muslim people of bosnia and is about? >> you are talking about motivations and i think there is

still part of that that exists. that nato and the united states intervened too late, so there is that. but i'm actually talking about -- >> wait a minute. muslim majority countries intervened not at all and saved almost no one. but those to save people did not do a good enough job? continue. >> no. i want to agree. but at what i want to point out is the logistics network that exists and the financing system that exists that funnel fighters and money into that conflict that has been reversed and that network is what they are trying now.ot out i think countries of kosovo and bosnia are in the muslim majority area of bosnia exist because of nato will stop had their leaders and a moms been helpful in pushing back against -- and imams been

helpful in pushing back? >> one thing that is interesting, they actually required all of the foreign fighters, and there were 3000 who went, too leave. that is something they reinforced more earlier but it is a good president and they are trying with limited resources. recognizes itself or its questions. thank you for being him. there has been discussion about american intelligence sources spying on americans. i have a great concern about that under the fisa court, secret court, secret warrant on secret individuals. i do believe we can have security and safety and we can have civil the birdies in the united states. abuse by the intelligent services -- intelligence services, it must end or

congress must take immediate action to stop fisa in its entirety. they are abusing me law as it already is, in my opinion. that is my obligation because we are unique among nations. we had the fourth amendment to protect americans in the united states. something that has not been tempted about for emergency use of social media. foreign terrorists using american companies to recruit, to raise money, to spread propaganda, and to teach other terrorist how to make bombs. the europeans are talking about trying to rein in social media. we have legislation that requires our government to tell us what the plan is on social media, to be very clear, the supreme court has said terrorists do not have a constitutional right to use social media. it is not a free speech that

form they are entitled to use. that is not an issue. i am a big first amendment guy. but what are we doing to rein in our social media companies to stop recruitment, raising money, propaganda, and the building of bombs? anybody want to talk about that? your friends are talking about fining these social media and france- europe are talking about fining these social media companies, what are we doing? haveek is a pushback they gotten on capitol hill from the public saying, why are you letting your platform be used by terrorists? >> there is no free speech issue, -- cards we have seen recently on twitter, if you asked me to years ago i would've said the platform of choice would be twitter. my concern now is isis recruits are largely recruited on

telegram, a german company. it allows for data encryption. you are seeing less of the fence sitters. you are less likely to get a kid from the midwest curious about isis, you are more likely to get the rope connectors looking for guys and raqqa. >> cut to the chase. >> note of them. -- gram cards were they held criminally liable? >> i think you can argue some level might be in play. the larger question -- >> social media companies have brought down all of the child pornography sites with absolutely no problem about liberty. and, that works. why not use the same protocol? bring down terrorist sites? wires are not our current do you know which mark >> i think it is occurring more rapidly on facebook and less on other

places so i would encourage social media companies to do what they're doing now which is using ai and #technologies to proactively take down content. reds are and if you in favor of penalties against social media sites that don't take down terrorist information? and if you? i guess that is a no. we shall see where we go at that. i've a question for all of you. how many isis terrorists are there in the world? does anybody know? an estimate? you all are the experts. you have to give me number here. does anybody know how many? nobody wants to say? i think we ought to at least know how many of the enemy there are if we are going to be able to defeat them. what is the definition of a terrorist? give me a working definition of a terrorist as opposed to some outlaw, criminal, whatever.

what is a terrorist? fbi? >> a terrorist is someone who commits an act of violence or an act of crime justified by an extreme radical, religious, or social ideology. >> mr. hughes, you are not very encouraging. you said the problem is going to get worse on terrorist activity. i believe it is you are some cox. it's not that you're not going to have a grip on this, why is it going to get worse? that will be my last question. >> i think it is going to get worse in terms of the relation. i think the problems in europe start there and are getting worse. i don't see integration improving. i don't see security and prevent. this obviously has an impact on

the u.s.. there are a number of trends in europe which look terrifying and that has an impact here. >> i want to thank all of you for being here. i will allow the gentleman, the chairman of the european ,ubcommittee to make a comment a final statement. >> a short closing statement. let me know one of the things -- dueme just say, with all respect, saying that only 3% of the terrorist come from the migrant camps or have migrated distorts our view of what we're really talking about because i imagine that 97% then come from migrant families that came and migrated into the mayben european societies 20 years ago or 30 years ago, even 40 years ago. this is not like you have a what we usedcally

to have common northern ireland where you have a bunch of catholics coming out who are basically part of the irish society. figure basically the 3% you say, and every time you said and i think was deceptive. i do not mind -- i do not mean you were intentionally deceiving us. if you have a bunch of migrants coming into your country and your thing, well only 3% of them will ever actually become terrorists, i. but if 90% of the terrorists and their children or their children's children, yes, you are putting yourself on a line to have a lot more terrorism in the future and that is why maybe when they say terrorism is going to be an expanding problem, that is what we mean. so, i do not feel comfortable saying, well at 3% of the people who are immigrants into my community are going to be

ifceptible to terrorism but their children are susceptible, if 97% of the children are whatever it is our, that is a problem. so with that said, again we are a country of freedom and i have voted against, your honor, i voted with you to make sure we .o not step on people people who are here legally, i have -- i think that is very -- i am in favor of legal immigration whether it is muslims or other people but the fact is, whoever comes here, we have to make sure we understand the potential of their coming here from a country that has a andof terrorism or upheaval radical islamic culture, then we have to be careful with that. we have to make sure that people in san bernardino, this agenda, san bernardino -- we had a young man who i guess he was born here of islam parents, he went out

with his wife and they slaughtered social service workers. theyjust went out and slaughtered them. no, we should have taken more to there. we should have made sure that someone susceptible like that got a lot closer attention than what he obviously got. it is a challenge for all of us. freedom versus security, like you are saying in all our countries. i don't think we can side totally with freedom but i don't think we can side totally with security, either. so thank you for helping us make up our minds as to where that is but i think the 3% number did not help us. ok? thank you very much. eggs final statement, ranking member keating from massachusetts. craig thank you. i want to thank the witnesses. -- >> thank this

you. i want to thank the witnesses. we deal with this terrible epidemic in so many different ways. today we had a chance to focus in part on one of the things that really has not been fully utilized as a tool against this terrorism and that is the idea of prevention. sometimes prevention, you cannot quantify in statistics because if you prevented it, you may never know what indeed was responsible for stopping it. it just as the chair started the hearing saying that for instance, i am paraphrasing -- in 1000 attempts, all the terrorists have to do is be successful ones. in prevention, some of the techniques we're learning from europe and they are learning from us, all we have to do is be successful one of those times to stop one of those terrible terrorist acts. in programs that mr. hughes was involved in in my region and other areas, they are successful need resources and

commitment and an understanding that law enforcement needs help outside of the traditional system to deal with preventing this. and, thank you for a glimpse of these ideas today. >> i thank the gentleman, thinking witnesses for being here. you are invited now to have questions presented to you from our subcommittee who ran out of time. please respond properly to those questions and send us answers. i think the members for being here as well. this has been a very important and enlightening hearing. thank you for your expertise. these subcommittees are adjourned. pound]

announcer: u.n. ambassador nikki haley testifies this morning about u.s. interests at the united nations. you can see her testimony before the house foreign affairs c-span3, live on c-span daughter, and streaming on our free c-span radio app. >> today, the house armed services committee gets to work on the proposed defense authorization which directs how dod funding should be used. the many marks up the legislation with amendment starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern two.span recently on c-span, williams students eckley would at a senate judiciary hearing on free speech on college campuses. >> the president unilaterally canceled a speaker. days later, the president and acted new speaker policies that made ringing speakers to campus and especially arduous process for my student group.

impermissible, and synthetic, and antithetical to the presidential decision to does invite a speaker solely on the basis of his inflammatory remarks about race. >> discussing the opioid crisis in the you united states. >> i was sitting next to the library and i said what are the issues your facing here at the library and i thought you would say something like, cyber books.y or access to she said, you know, we have people overdosing in the library every day. we need to get our librarians naloxone so they can give it to people who have overdosed at the denver public library. mccain talking to patrick shanahan. >> we now have a executive from one of the five major

corporations that has crawled 95% of our defense budgets and on one of the major issues that this committee has had hearings about, has had markups about, has reported out our bill, and you want to find out more information? not a good beginning. not a good beginning. do not do that again mr. shanahan, or i will not take your name up for a vote before this committee. >> c-span programs are available at c-span.org, on our homepage, or by searching the live today on c-span, washington journal is next. at 10:00 a.m. eastern, the house returns for general speeches. and at noon eastern, house members take up a bill that would allow penalties for sanctuary cities. and later, a bill to protect health insurance providers from lawsuits. coming up in one hour, mary

agnes carey and julie rovner talk about the postponed senate health care law replacement bill and the overall state of health care in the u.s.. >> we will continue the discussions within our contents on the differences that we have, that we will continue to try to litigate. consequently, we will not be on the bill this week. ♪ host: that was senate majority leader mitch mcconnell yesterday, announcing a vote on the senate health care overhaul bill would be postponed until sometime after the july 4 recess . mcconnell announced the delay after the announcement it had not garnered enough support from public and senators to begin debate on legislation. we want to hear your reaction this morning as we look