the wisconsin book festival saturday morning at 11:30 a.m. eastern on c-span2's book tv. next, massachusetts governor charlie baker debating his democratic challenger jay gonzalez. this 50 minute debate is sbk tv in boston. a campaign 2018 special, the massachusetts governor's debate starts right now. >> welcome to the massachusetts been editorial debate. i am john keller, political analyst, welcoming those watching our livestream on cbs, radiosteners on news

10:30 and viewers across the state and the nation on c-span. let's meet the candidates for governor of massachusetts in our medical order. the incumbent, republican charlie baker, a former health care executive and cabinet official seeking his second term in office. and the challenger, democrat jay former health a care executive who served in the cabinet of governor patrick. gentlemen, welcome. a quick word about our format. have adidates each minute to respond to the same question and our thanks go out to members of the public for their topic and question suggestions. after that, we move to open period of crosstalk, rebuttal, and direct questioning of each other. rules there, no filibustering, no talking over each other, and of course, total obedience to the moderator. the cycle will continue for

entire hour and with that said, let's begin our debate and we will start with responses in alphabetical order, with governor baker answering first. both of you have expressed concern that the elevation of judge brett kavanaugh might lead to the overturning of the 45-year-old roe v. wade supreme court ruling that legalized abortion. in july, massachusetts repealed old antiabortion statutes that predated roe, but there are laws on the books like mandatory parental consent for minors strongly objected to by pro-choice advocates. what steps would you take to protect abortion access? one minute, sir. gov. baker: this is obviously an important issue and has a lot to do with why i was concerned about justice kavanaugh's nomination, and then especially concerned about his confirmation at this point. have done the work we

in massachusetts on a bipartisan basis to expand access to women's reproductive rights and passed state laws that ensure in the commonwealth, these issues will not be jeopardized by changes in federal policy and the passage, as you point out, a number of laws on the books were important firsts that's, but i also think we should work with our colleagues in other states, democrats and republicans to build a coalition that recognizes the importance of abortion rights and a woman's right to choose. with respect to the issue associated with mandatory parental notification, we have a policy in massachusetts that is fairly easy to pursue and many do. i talk to the judge is quite a bit about it. >> i strongly support a woman's right to choose and answering your question, eliminating the age for consent. i am very proud to have had the

endorsement of pro-choice massachusetts and will do anything i can to protect a woman's right to choose. governor baker has enforced just deal -- jeff steele to replace elizabeth warren as -- she's the cochair of donald trump and right here in massachusetts, so backing him, he is supporting an anti-choice agenda as well as an pro-gun agenda and i would never support anyone like that who could tip the balance in the united states senate, someone who has voted to confirm brett kavanaugh and might confirm the next brett kavanaugh and i am curious, governor, why you have supported jeff steele? jon: response. said i would endorse the taking of whoever won the primaries, but my positions are clear. i am getting sued right now by

the nra where i got a d and f from the nra, and i appreciate the fact that planned parenthood, one of the most important organizations with respect to reproductive rights has supported the campaign. issue for us and our country and believe it will be important for the next governor to find ways to build bipartisan relationships, to work this one and working hard and i can do that. jon: rebuttal. mr. gonzalez: plant parenthood hasn't endorsed your campaign or our campaign. i want to be clear about something because this is an important point. governor baker said his loyalty is to the republican ticket. even if that means sending someone to the united states senate who would do everything in his power to undercut a woman's right to choose. and id never do that, i will be alear,

governor who stands up for women's rights and lgbtq rights and common sense gun laws, not just some of the time, but all of the time. not just reluctantly, but wholeheartedly and for me, it won't be a matter of political calculation. these positions are based on my core values. jon: go ahead, sir, if you like. view on gunmy issues is quite clear and i am enormously proud of the work we have done on a bipartisan basis working with our colleagues in legislature to ban bump stocks, we were the first state to do that after the terrible tragedy in las vegas, and we were one of the first states to pass protective order legislation. nevadaned to be going to to speak at a conference right after a terrible tragedy at the country fest out there, and governor sandoval and i toured the memorial, the makeshift memorial that develop their. developed out there.

i said we had to do something about bump stocks and we did it. shortly after parkland, i said we had to do something and we did that. massachusetts has the best gun laws in the country, i support them and i'm proud of them and constantly refer to them when i talk to colleagues in other states at the federal level. jon: go ahead but i want to move on. mr. gonzalez: you want to send someone to the united states and who would support donald trump's pro-nra agenda and this senseless gun violence across the country. i was mortified to find the assault weapon used in parkland was made right here in massachusetts. i immediately proposed banning the manufacture of assault weapons in massachusetts. i don't know if you have taken a position on that, but we need to do everything we possibly can to protect students and people across the state from senseless gun violence and sending jeff steele to the senate to support donald trump's pro-nra agenda is not the way to do it. my views on donald

trump are well known. i didn't vote for him and i to fight -- ihers worked to fight back against the traveling. imade clear my view on what think about many of his positions and policies and he is not running. i am running for governor, not just steal. jon: let's move on. you can always return to issues that were raised earlier. i will definitely allow that. for this question, mr. mike gonzales, in the wake of the miramax malagasy explosions, "i am concerned about using gas as an energy source, both from a safety and long-term climate perspective. how big a role do you think natural gas should play in our energy future?" mr. gonzalez: i strongly exposed expanding natural gas

infrastructure in the state and this is a big difference between myself and governor baker. we need to move more aggressively to a true clean energy economy and it is not just because of the greenhouse gas emission impact of natural gas, but we were reminded this is very dangerous. no more gas pipelines in this state, accelerating our transition to renewable energy sources. we should be the first in the nation to adopt carbon pricing. leadering to be a bold on this issue, which we were reminded by the u.n. panels an even bigger threat to our planet and much more urgent issue than we even thought before. this is one example among many where the status quo approach is not going to be good enough and we need old leadership. i will aim high on this issue and make sure we are taking on climate change. jon: governor baker?

gov. baker: i do believe we are a leader in taking on climate change and i start with the fact we worked with colleagues on a bipartisan basis to pass one of the most significant pieces of legislation in state history with respect to getting away from fossil fuels. that was the legislation that made it possible for us to amounts ofificant hydropower, hydroelectric power from canada and the largest offshore wind procurement in u.s. history. the best part about it is when we did the work, we put those out to bid, they came back at price points that shocked everyone, meaning they were affordable and sent a big signal to the world markets that this stuff was for real. to watch every state down the east coast suddenly decide they want to get into the offshore wind business because of the work we did in massachusetts. i take tremendous guide -- pride in that. a state that has invested in storage, storage is ultimately how to really bring deepwater wind, onshore wind, into the

upe, because it firms assets that can be used .47. we are moving in the right direction and moving aggressively. we are leading the country in a number of areas. mr. gonzalez: not aggressively enough. we have 800 megawatts of offshore wind being developed in the near future. a hundred more to come. we need to be doing it much quicker than we currently are. we should mandate the development of the additional 800 megawatts. we have lost jobs in the solar industry. i would lift those constraints. we need to be bolder about this. to thiso come back more point about natural gas. we were just reminded because of the tragedy in the merrimack valley, somebody lost his life. many people were injured. of lives have been disrupted by this. governor baker and i have a different philosophy about the role of government and this is

an area where it is an important reminder, government is there to protect us and the state agency that is supposed to protect us from gas companies and keep us take, the federal government told the baker administration weeks before the incident they did not have enough inspectors. i would hire multiple times the inspectors and make sure we are being proactive in overseeing the gas companies. gov. baker: first of all, safety is everybody's number one priority on this and it is a joint relationship between the state and federal government that manages our natural gas infrastructure. that federal government that reviewed the massachusetts pipeline safety program gave us 50 points out of 50 points, a perfect score. in addition to that, in 2017, pu did 1100 investigations, more than they had done in the previous five or six years. do we need to do more? yes and that is a reason why iner the andover incident,

an abundance of caution, the dpu is putting out a bid to bring a third party to do a top to bottom review of the entire natural gas infrastructure in massachusetts and the policies and procedures in place to protect it. this is something we need to take seriously and i spent a tremendous amount of time up there since that incident and that disaster, working with families, with shelters, with the mayors, local officials and others to do everything we possibly can to make sure people get their heat and hot water back safely. jon: go ahead. mr. gonzalez: it is not enough and the old republican playbook of smaller government has shown us what the consequences of that are. the federal government in this report said there weren't enough inspectors and the regulatory regime, oversight regime relied on the gas companies that are shilling his coffers to oversee themselves. that is not the way this should work. i will hire the multiple times

the inspectors to make sure the government, the one institution whose only interest is to theect us, is overseeing gas companies and the work they are doing on our gas pipeline infrastructure. jon: go ahead. gov. baker: i would say as i said before, in the past three years, we have done more inspections and any three-year period of time and we will do a full-blown review, independent analysis, of the infrastructure we have now and the work being done to make sure if there are any gaps in our work, we fill those gaps. jon: i want to follow up with a question. ill go first, governor. -- you'll go first, governor. more than 1000 national grid workers are in a lockout situation. the union argues that lockout should and so those workers can help with merrimack valley recovery. others argue that is not something the public officials should get involved in, it is a private sector matter.

when, if ever, is it appropriate for a governor to intervene in the private sector labor dispute and how would you handle that? gov. baker: we spent time over the past four or five weeks with the steelworkers, with natural -- national grid and put them in the same room to see if we can mediate the differences and hammer out an agreement. i would love to be able to say we have been successful in doing that. we haven't been able to get them to agree yet. i will say thisp. . we have put constraints on national grid's ability to do work in the commonwealth based on the number of people who have availability to do the work and that sort of thing -- if you think safety is your primary issue, which i believe it is, i believe the most important thing we can do is make sure the grid is only doing emergency work and other mandated statutory work due to the fact they don't have those folks working the job.

jon: mr. gonzalez? mr. gonzalez: this is a case the government should have stepped in earlier. steelworkers were outside your studio today cheering me on as i worked today because i for them. i worked with utilities to find out before the merrimack valley incident that temporary workers have been doing work that resulted in safety issues, about 100 reports filed with the department of public utilities, including 10 incidents of over pressurization, the same issue we saw in the merrimack valley and dpu was nonresponsive, multiple times. please is only after this incident they cared about this, but this is a situation where the national grid workers, i think, have been treated representative lee by the companies who have locked them out, stopped paying them, stopped their health care, and they have temporary workers on were not being as safe

as the national grid workers would be. jon: rebuttal? gov. baker: it is not true that wedidn't meet with them and are the ones who sent them to the dpu that initially sent the order that was specific to the concerns raised -- on the steelworkers. we will pursue those issues as they become available and we made clear our door is available to meet when they want to to race issues, especially as they relate to safety. mr. gonzalez: i am running for governor to fight for all the little guys out there. all the workers like the national grid workers were getting squeezed. we need unions now more than ever, because most working are being left behind and the whole reason i am running for governor is to make a meaningful difference in their lives, to take on the issues holding them back and this is a situation where i have joined the national grid work is, other union members at other rallies because they are being treated

in a way that they aren't benefiting from the economic recovery in the same way that people at the top are and i am in this to fight -- for them. jon: a final word and then i will move on. gov. baker: it is important those guys and gals gets to work and we do that by demonstrating the national grid won't be able to do any work outside the statute to her obligation -- statutory obligations. jon: let's move on. by theng to research transportation analytics spend a boston drivers higher percentage of their time stuck in congestion then in any other u.s. city, even worse than new york and ellie -- l.a. do we need to spend more money to fix that problem and how should it be spent and where will that money come from? one minute, sir. mr. gonzalez: we absolutely need to.

we have one of the worst transportation systems in the country. othersit system and where people are paying higher fares for disabled trains and reduced bus service. people cannot depend on our transportation system to get to work on time. i am being honest about the fact that we do need to raise taxes to invest more. i have a $3 billion plan to do so. we will raise it each year to invest in transportation and education so we get our transportation system to a place where people can depend on it to get to work on time. i will ask the wealthy to pay their fair share. i will not ask lower income people to pay more taxes, but we will raise $3 billion and we are being honest about the fact to do so. i am not trying to become governor to manage the status quo. the status quo is not working for working families across this state and our transportation -- i will provide the

bold leadership we need to fix it. gov. baker: let's talk about the status quo transportation system we inherited. in the years before we took spend --he team didn't in capital funds available to it. repair backlog doubled. ter and over again, the wasn't getting the job done for everybody and it was ignored by one administration after the other. we are the first administration to create a fiscal management control board and went hard at making significant investments in the system that moves one million people around this commonwealth everyday. we spent $1.9 billion over the past three years on what i call the current operation. ignored byt has been administration after administration, and it is not sexy stuff. it is signals and switches and third rail and tracks, and the stuff that really makes a difference with respect to the

system's ability to perform. yes there is more to do, but you don't start by fixing the stuff that really matters around the systems current performance, you will never get there. jon: do you think we need more money? gov. baker: our plan is to spend $8 billion over five years, which will be $5 billion more than we spent in the five years before we took office. that is a lot of money. quality ofrove the the service and the capacity of the system for the people who ride it. mr. gonzalez: your plan is it will be in a state of repair in 15 years and you haven't said how you will pay for all of that. that is totally unacceptable. we need to be much more ambitious. we need more of a sense of urgency around this. you need to get out and talk to commuters. the issue i hear about more than anything else, i have ridden the t with many people and they are done with this system they can't depend on.

who stood onibby the platform while the countdown clock said one minute for 20 minutes before she called a new birth. -- uber. people are crammed in the aisles, it is totally unacceptable. governor, i think writing with riders and many people have asked you to and you refused, you would learn a lot. it would show respect to people about your wanting to understand their experience and with the lack of urgency and the fact the system hasn't been fixed. i am surprised commuters haven't revolted and started a petition to change the name from charlie card to wear his charlie card? gov. baker: the job of the governor is to make the t work and that is what we have been focused on for three years. the t was broken from years and years of neglect and as a result, we have made an -- many

moving ins to get it a different direction. on the commuter rail gov. baker: on the commuter rails, that has been born stuff -- boring stuff. we are spending $1 billion on the core infrastructure associated with the orange line and redline. when those cars show up there will be able to travel on a system that works, is reliable, and dependable. we rescued the project in somerville which was basically dead when we took office because we believed it was worth saving and we managed to get $1 billion out of the federal government to save it. mr. gonzalez: the money that exists now, the new train cars are because of decisions that a different administration put in place. we need to do more. we need significant additional

revenue to get the system to where it needs to be as soon as possible. i am in this to fix this system for you so you can depend on it, so it improves your quality of life, so businesses want to continue to invest here. we are going to raise taxes on the wealthy. i have a specific plan to do so. the governor has no plan to do so. he did not answer your question about whether he is going to raise more taxes. the status quo is not good enough. i am going to fire the private operator of the computer system. i will be the first governor to bring it in-house and manage it directly. firing the private operator is a political talking point. the t concluded it would be too expensive and less reliable and flexible to bring in a new operator. the $3 billion would not actually start until his second

term, because $2 billion of that is associated with a constitutional amendment that he has to get through two sets of the legislature before happens. the plan was originally proposed by president trump and the republican congress. jon: we have to take a break but this is an important issue. go ahead. mr. gonzalez: i do have a plan to tax the wealthy, to tax millionaires. it would raise $2 billion per year. the earliest we can do that is for years from now and it's not soon enough, which is why i also have a plan to raise $1 billion from the wealthy universities in the state, which i think is fair, they can afford it. they can continue to do everything they do today and it will make a meaningful difference for the people in our economy, who right now cannot depend on the transportation system, and whose education system is failing their

children. gov. baker: we have a plan to spend $8 billion over the next $5 billion -- over the next five years to improve the commuter system, and other things. the plan is funded and it's not made up of funny money or money that starts years from now. it's available, in the plan, it will get spent, and it will deliver the kind of reliable, state-of-the-art transportation system that the peoplee deserve. jon: we will turn to a new topic when the gubernatorial debate continues. please stay with us. jon: welcome back to the gubernatorial debate. before our break, mr. gonzales raised an issue i want to follow up on. governor baker will start in this round. mr. gonzalez has proposed

raising funds to spend on transit and other priorities by imposing a 1.6% tax on private, nonprofit schools with endowments in excess of $1 billion. he claims more than half of the proceeds will come from harvard university, your alma mater, governor, which has an endowment of well over $40 billion. you have called this a bad idea. why? gov. baker: the colleges and universities in the commonwealth of massachusetts are a major economic engine, significant employer, and they do wonderful things to promote discovery, research, and learning. but most importantly their endowment fund, among other things, scholarships and financial aid for low income and middle income students. while we would take 500 and $69 million away from harvard, $200 million away from m.i.t., and colleges to fund the money

for kids just does not make any sense to me. it was either idea originally proposed test on idea original -- an idea originally opposed test proposed by the republican congress -- an idea originally proposed by the republican congress and at the time i did not supported. mr. gonzalez: it has been pending in legislation on beacon hill for a while, but here's why it makes sense. the status quo for the education system is not good enough and it's not good enough for the transportation system. i am going to take on these big jobs. i want every child and family in the state to have access to high-quality and affordable childcare and preschool. i want a young person in brockton to have the same educational opportunity of the person in brooklyn. i want our colleges to be affordable and debt-free for any resident who wants to go without being burdened by student loans.

i want to fix the transportation system so that it actually works for people. when you to invest more to do that -- we need to invest more to do that. this proposal would raise $1 billion, which would get us started in a meaningful way on these agenda items. these universities are important to our economy, but based on their annual rate of growth of the endowments, they can afford this tax to do everything they do today, and their endowments will still grow. i believe that the more important asset to our economy is the people, and that's what i will continue to fight for. proposal, asis misguided as it is, does not come close to what he is talking about paying for. let's get into the discussion about what he chose to make as decisions when he worked in state government. under his management of the

secretary of administration and finance he cut early childhood education by $85 million, as the same time that state spending grew by $6.5 billion. increased spending on early childhood education over the past four years by over $100 million. does the choice we made. mr. gonzalez: there is a lot of fuzzy math there. i'm going to tell people what i will do as governor. i would try to make progress on these issues that are holding people back. affordable childcare and preschool is huge. but governor baker is doing is not nearly enough to make a difference to make it affordable for everyone. the evidence is clear on this. it is game changing for young kids and it allows their parents to go to work. thing we canis the do that will have the biggest return on investment for kids and families in the eight. i will ask the wealthy to pay

more -- state. i will ask the wealthy to pay more in taxes to do it. jon: rebuttal? invested over $100 million in new money in this because we believe it's a big decision, but we actually made a decision to invest. ton he was in a position make a position -- decision on whether to invest or not, he cut it by $85 billion. he will go back to doing the same thing that he did before, which is not delivering on a commitment, not delivering on a promise, and overselling was possible here -- what's possible here. mr. gonzalez: it's not true. back then i was managing a budget in the worst financial crisis in decades. i am going to raise taxes on the wealthy by $1 billion in my

first year and $2 billion more in my last year so we can make these investments. we will make a lot more progress than governor baker. it's the same old republican -- no newnuno taxes taxes, and we know what we get for that, working families left behind. gov. baker: you already spent on ther it was transportation conversation, now he's spending it on the education conversation, even though he's put more money on the table than was originally proposed. we spent hundred million dollars more on childhood education because we believed in it. we have the highest graduation rate we have ever had, the lowest dropout rate we have ever had. we believe in investing in education. when we have had the opportunity to prove it we put our money where our mouth was. mr. gonzalez: it's small ball

status quo stuff. it's inflationary increases, not what we need. the vigor administration is about to get sued by districts the schoolstate -- administrations are about to sue the governor administration. childt to make sure every has access to a great public education. gov. baker: let's talk about the status quo. if i was a status quo governor families -- there was still be so many homeless families living in hotels and motels, and there are not. governor, status quo bridgewater state hospital would still be a stain on the commonwealth's reputation instead of the hospital that it was supposed to be. you talk to families there, it's night and day with respect to what that place was like.

if i was a status quo governor, whichalth connector, crashed during the previous administration, would not be working, which it is and is now serving 275,000 people in massachusetts. we have done a lot important things and i simply do not buy for a minute this notion that we have been a status quo administration. jon: go ahead and have a response and i will move on. nearlyzalez: it's not enough, there's so much more we need to do to make a difference for working families in the state. i am going to provide bold leadership on climate change. you are forced by a court to make progress. from climaterade organizations who think you are not doing enough, and you are not. i am going to provide the bold leadership we need. one of the things i love about this state is we have always been a leader. we have always believed we can overcome any challenge every put our minds to it and work for it. that's the type of governor i am

going to be. gov. baker: when he had his teller on the state budget he cut the department of children and families. ast's about as little guy you can get. he cut their budget by over $100 million, again, when state spending went up. we believe we should be investing in the little guys and little girls, and moms and dads associated with the agency. we have hired hundreds of social workers. when we took office 40% of the social workers were licensed, now it's 99.6% and we hired hundreds of administrative staff. iat's what i talk about when talk about helping and delivering in a real weight to people in massachusetts who really need the government to perform. jon: equal time, then i will

move on. mr. gonzalez: it's not enough. we are going to aim high. we are going to take on these big challenges that are going to make a difference in people's lives. we are asking the wealthy to pay more in taxes so we can do it. it's a clear choice people are ,oing to have in this election as we are hearin. we deserve more from our , particularly now, when we have a federal government that has taken us backwards in so many areas. jon: let's move onto another question that's related. an unemployed older worker rights, my immediate need is property tax reduction. i am paying 20% of my income to city hall -- 28% of my income to city hall. what will your plan due to give

me relief? mr. gonzalez: the state is falling down on its constitutional obligation to adequately fund public schools. i have a plan, unlike governor baker, to raise $3 billion in taxes on the wealthy, to invest in education and transportation. we are going to increase the pie in terms of state support for public school districts. that will relieve pressure on property taxes at the local level. governor baker has no plan to invest more in public schools. he is proud of the fact that he has managed to provide inflationary increases in good economic times, and that is not good enough. jon: governor baker, one minute. gov. baker: edward, what i would say is that we have supported in the past and would continue to

support and advocate for giving people property tax relief over the age of 65. many local communities have chosen to do that. we think pursuing that on a statewide basis would be a good idea as well. he is right to be concerned about that. the second thing i would say is that you cannot fund localhe isd about aid, k-12 education on anti-promises. what we're talking -- empty promises. we are talking about and the promises with my opponent -- empty promises with my opponent. he would need to be raising $30 billion or $40 billion to actually pay for all this stuff on his agenda. the final thing i will say is that every year we have delivered on our commitments to these and towns -- cities and towns. when we had to figure out how to solve the budget at the end of the session, we did not go back and cut local eight two cities and towns. they did.

mr. gonzalez: it's fuzzy math, governor. your plan is zero additional investment. whether you think $3 billion additional tax revenue from the wealthy each year is enough or not, it's $3 billion more than you are promising. i will get this done. i have been in a leadership position in state government before. i am not trying to become governor to manage the status quo. we have to make a difference on these big issues of electing people's lives in a real way. i believe in our potential to do so, and i want us to be who we are. i am but to be a governor that honest withd is people about what we need to do to get there. jon: remodel -- rebuttal? gov. baker: we have 22 mayors who have endorsed our campaign,

and many other local officials, city counselors, school committee members, boards of selectmen. they are all endorsing our campaign because they believe we have been incredibly strong in developing positive working relationships with our colleagues in government. i am a former local official myself. lieutenant governor karen polio as a former local official. you have former local officials all over our leadership team and that's not an accident. ahead. have goodez: i also relationships with lots of local officials who i worked with in the patrick administration. many have endorsed my campaign. i am focused on the support of regular people in the state. i am fighting for all of the little guys who need a governor fighting for them.

we are engaging with people across the state. we have a lot of enthusiasm for the fact that we are being honest about the fact that we are going to ask the wealthy to pay more to make a difference. gov. baker: there is rhetoric and reality. bythe reality, he cut dcf $100 million. she did not do anything to help the homeless, we did. by $85early childhood ed billion. they had years to do something about raising the year and income tax credit. we did it twice and basically doubled the size of the earned income tax credit. those are the commitments we have made. those are what we have done. at the end of the day voters --

voters need to measure us on what we have done. mr. gonzalez: i am running to be governor now and deliver on an ambitious agenda that i want to deliver on as governor. it's different from what we are getting with our current governor. the laundry list of accomplishments, while there are some good things, it's small ball stuff. there are working families across the state been left behind and they need a governor who is going to take on these our education, system, our transportation system is one of the worst in the country. it's the thing i had the most about everywhere i go. you have been governor four years now and they do not fill a difference. in fact, it feels worse and that is unacceptable to me. i'm not running to maintain the status quo. we are going to take on these big issues and fix them. av. baker: we inherited

public transportation system that everybody would agree is a mess. we have done a tremendous amount of work to right the ship. for the first time ever we have actually been spending serious money on the current system so that the current system can get better and perform. fleetone third of the bus is new. i have given the patrick administration credit many times. to not recognize or understand how important it is to invest in thecore system of the nbta, one that moves one billion -- million people a day, that's what the action should be. mr. gonzalez: i agree it's important. it needs to be a higher priority. there is not a rational person budgeterstands the t's

who would say that we do not need more tax revenue to invest in it to get it to where it needs to be as quickly as possible. people feel it, i hear it every day, i see it when i'm out ng with with them -- ridi them. jon: we will take our final break. when we return we will shift the focus to crime and punishment. please stay with us as the gubernatorial debate continues. ♪ welcome back to the gubernatorial debate. governor baker, this question for you first. in an interview this summer senator elizabeth warren offered truth"e called a "hard about our criminal justice system. it's racist all the way, front to back. our prison system is something that america should be ashamed of, what we do to other human beings is fundamentally wrong.

that's a quote. do you agree or disagree? gov. baker: i don't think our system is racist from front to back, no. do i think there are issues associated with our criminal justice system that need to be fixed? yes. that's one of the reasons why we spent so many time -- so much time working with our colleagues on a major criminal justice reform bill. the big emphasis in that bill are to do a better job of helping people come back into productive society after they have served their term, in terms of both programming and a runway and series of support o as they come out. the second was to create diversions to present, especially with people -- prison, especially with people dealing with addictions. the third was to make sure we were doing the sorts of things at the commonwealth to not punish people who do not have

any money by holding them in prison simply because they cannot pay bail. i think those are all the things. jon: mr. gonzalez, one minute. mr. gonzalez: the criminal justice system is the biggest civil rights issue of our time. there are big disparities in arrest rates and incarceration rates. i have a progressive agenda. the legislature thankfully took the lead on this and passed a bill that takes a number of great steps in the right direction. i think we can go further in some areas. i support eliminating all mandatory minimum sentences, except for murder. i think we need to make sure that we are really investing in a diversionary programs -- in diversion or programs -- diversionary programs to address the underlying causes like mental health issues and addiction. we need to make sure we are not jailing people because they are poor, witch is happening.

we have a much higher incarceration rate than most other countries in the world. we can make communities safer and i am going to provide bold leadership to make sure we get there. jon: rebuttal? gov. baker: i agree with some of the things my opponent said. probably the reason we took on the bridgewater state hospital issue was because of the horrible tragedies that have taken place over the course of literally 30 years. that was a couple to solve that we solved it. i think in many ways when many people think about the history of incarceration in massachusetts, bridgewater is the thing that comes to the top of the pile. four years in massachusetts, 30 years, if you are a woman civilly committed due to a problem with addiction you got sent to framingham state prison with no treatment. we changed that working with the legislature on a bipartisan basis.

we got legislation passed that created treatment capacity at state hospitals. treatment ative state hospital. in many ways we have a long way to go on this issue. i believe we are making progress . the final thing i will say, massachusetts is tied with vermont for having the lowest incarceration rate in the country. when i say lower, i mean it's lower -- hugely lower than many other parts. we have a long way to go but we have done a lot of things well. mr. gonzalez: it's still way too high. the governor is still sending people who are addicted and have not committed a crime to the department of corrections facility in plymouth, where they are not getting the treatment they need. i would and that -- end that.

state police corruption is rampant. have been eight people indicted, three people pled guilty for crimes committed on governor beckers watch. 19 months ago -- governor baker's watch. it's at the governor 12 months to propose a series of reforms. six months since then a number of those reforms have not been implemented. he needs to take charge of this. as interesting to me that he has not fired a single person at the state police. there are a number of troopers who have been investigated and others who oversaw this who have been able to retire at run into the sunset with their taxpayer-funded. tension when will you fire someone at the state police? gov. baker: many members of his own party, my opponents own party, called his accusations and demands with respect to the state police political nonsense. referredrs have been

by the current kernel and our leadership team to the attorney general under the u.s. attorney for investigation. 48. every single indictment, every single plea deal are people who are administration actually submitted to law enforcement to review and determine if they committed a crime. i think the thing is outrageous. b, glad we blew up troops where the vast majority of this was going on. there are records showing this was going back to when are in the -- two before our administration began. jon: go ahead. mr. gonzalez: governor baker has been governor for four years and this has been happening on his watch. he just hired at months after the first incident was reported, just hired someone to take a look at the -- 19 months after the first incident was reported,

just hired someone to look at the payroll. a lot of people who i have been talking to have been frustrated with what's happening there. this kind of thing impacts people's perception of government, which is dangerous. when government loses credibility with people, because government is a positive force in people's lives. as the vehicle through which we empower each other, protect each other, and support each other. we need to maintain the public's trust. with the state police has lost it and it's taken way too long to get a handle on it. i would put someone in place was not an insider and who would come in from the outside and have credibility to clean. up the problems with the state police gov. baker: the kernel did the investigation. she led the investigation. she gave the data to the u.s. attorney and attorney general that they could then used to prosecute violators and pursue their behavior.

the kernel put gps devices and all cruisers, setup -- set up a for overtimeit work. the final thing i will say, that first string they started to months ago that my opponent talked about, they actually had to do the work determining where that went before they could submit the documentation to the attorney general and u.s. attorney. they wanted to make sure they got it right. guess what, they did. and that is why they are ensuring arrest warrants. >> 19 months since that first report. and it was a lot of media reports of other problems that ended up taking the baker administration into action. it is not good enough. you cannot make your whole case

for government that you will be a great manager and oversee an agency that had multiple people taking way too long to get a handle on it. the environmental police, which we have been reading about, and other agencies. i will clean up and take charge on these practices. the difference is that managing well is not good enough. i will take care of the challenges we face and make a difference. >> on that note, gentlemen, our time is up. thank you, governor. >> with election day less than a month away, and the control of congress in question, see the competition for yourself on c-span. watch the debates come from key house and senate races. make a c-span your primary source for campaign 2018.

>> c-span's washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that impact you coming up, emerald robinson on president trump and his relationship with the news media. and we will be live from providence rhode island, for the next up on the c-span buses 50 capital store with rhode island education commissioner ken wegner. editor ofthe managing the crystal ball discusses key house, senate, and governor races. be sure to watch c-span's washington journal, live at 7 a.m. eastern. join the discussion. line friday on the c-span remarks by10 a.m., the deputy u.s. trade representative and u.s. ambassador to the wto on the

global trading system and their role. live coverage from indiana at 6 p.m., where former vice president joe biden is campaigning percent. joe donnelly -- for senator joe donnelly. and next, senator heinrich and his challenger. a.m., the at 10:30 brookings institution looks at data privacy and digital commerce. on c-span3, members of congress join tech leaders for the launch of the meridian center for diplomatic engagement and their global leadership summit. fox news host tucker carlson discusses his book "check -- "ship of fools. " >> it is about why we elected trump. i could not get past it.

i could not get past the idea that the country voted for donald trump. it is not an attack on trump, i think he is right in a somatic sense on a bunch of different things. but you would not electron -- elect from unless you really wanted to send a message. happy countries don't elect donald trump. so the message is that people in charge on both sides, who hated him, screwed up. >> sunday night at 8 p.m. eastern on c-span's q&a. senator rhode island sheldon whitehouse debated his challenger bob flanders. they discussed issues like brett kavanaugh, the mueller investigation, and health care. from east providence, this hour-long debate is courtesy of wp roy 12 -- wpri 12. eyewitness news i