tv German Marshall Fund Discussion on the Transatlantic Alliance CSPAN November 29, 2020 6:49pm-8:01pm EST
c-span.org, or you can listen with the free c-span radio app app. the future look into of the transatlantic alliance and the nato role in securing ukraine and georgia. the marshall fund hosted this event. welcomevery pleased to viewers on both side of the , and greetings, indeed, from brussels. the subject of today, ukraine their relations with nato i would say is part of their dna. we have been working for many years now on georgia related issues. we have a trust fund that supports the society [indiscernible] in the region.
so, i also really want to thank our partners in this event, the new europe center, for all the support they have provided in the speakers who will contribute tonight. today, we want to dig into the subject of ukraine and georgia's relationship with nato and especially how these countries fit [inaudible] reflects the process. this was announced by nato secretary-general jan native --g to see her to see how nato can prepare and this process may lead to a new strategic concept, and this isn't a luxury. the current one dates back to 2007, if i'm not mistaken, so i would argue that there is a need to rethink nato strategy.
we will address these challenges. but this also includes how nato engaged with partners. it is crucial's -- crucial that countries like georgia and ukraine are included. they are depending also on the relationship with partners, so i think, in a nutshell, these are the issues that we want to discuss today. a reflection process. why does this matter, and what is the role?
experts will give us a report on the subjects. so let me actually introduce our panel of speakers today. first, as i mentioned, the director of the new york center in kyiv. welcome to you. the cofounder of the georgian institute for strategic studies, and a member of the european parliament, but also actually a member of the group of experts, of the nato reflection process. thank you very much for taking the time to be with us. we are also expecting olga to join us, the deputy prime minister for european affairs for transatlantic integration of ukraine. [inaudible] and we will obviously include her in this conversation.
this conversation is on record. we will first turn to our speakers, but then also go to you, the audience, for q&a. we really want this to be an interactive debate, so feel free to please use the zoom chat function. i will be closely monitoring that feed and will transfer your questions to our panelists. so, we have about 60 minutes left for this conversation and one of the officers of this report -- nato, ukraine, still on track, and which priorities do you see emerging? >> good evening. good evening from kiev. first of all, let me thank you
for the great partnership in organizing this event for your , interest in this event. i think the discussion is also indeed proper, because as we just before we went, the nato reflection group members met with secretary general of stoltenberg in order to present their ideas and their contributions to make -- nato reflections process for 2040. i think we are very lucky to have someone with us today. with regard to ukraine, we are pretty sure that in order to be envisioned, in order to be comprehensive, nato reflections process 2040 needs to take into account ukraine and georgia. this is why we at the new york
center, together with our georgian partners from the georgian institute, developed joint ukrainian-georgian expert accommodations, our modest contribution to the reflection process. these accommodations will [indiscernible] and we are happy we can discuss them today, as well. we believe that both ukraine and fully resolved to find a permanent place for the nato 2040 reflection process. [indiscernible] as far as i remember, the previous document contained two dimensions with ukraine and georgia that made reference to cooperation with russian federation.
so i think that it is of importance to all of those countries that nato's new strategic documents reflect the new reality as a new challenger to atlantic security. security, especially with aggressive situations with changingd the dynamics. let's not forget that when we are talking about ukraine and georgia, we are talking about countries who have a double meaning, or are playing double role. as partners, and as countries that are aspiring to become nato members. let me elaborate on that a little bit. firstly, what do ukraine and georgia proved to be one of the
most reliable nato partners? both countries [indiscernible] unity partners, the program. the twonstration of countries' contributions to their operations and mission, as well as a high level of [indiscernible] and those member states [indiscernible] standards. both countries have proven they can be not only consumers, but also contributors to europe's atlantic security by taking an effective part in the alliance contribution and operations. ukraine, for example, is the only partner to have actively contributed to all nato-led operations. secondly, ukraine and georgia are two of the three countries that are part of the non-nato
members. membership in nato [indiscernible] in ukraine, it's a conscious and responsible choice of our country, both ukraine and georgia. for ukraine, integration in nato [indiscernible] foreign policy and security priorities. we should support a level of political need and, importantly, a level in society. this is as a result of russian aggression, by the way. i would like to underline here this is probably the first time in ukraine's history that there -- with change of president and government, and the parliament last year the call of major , integration last year has not
been challenged worldwide. when we're talking about the nato membership, we are not suggesting something brand-new or extraordinary. as you know, ukraine and georgia will become nato members. the same declaration states a membership action plan, which we can see their -- i mean, ukraine and georgia as our next logical step in the european the member ship -- membership action plan is mentioned as the next step in ukraine and georgia on their pastor membership. path to membership. we expect with the application of this, it would not be selective. georgia and ukraine actually should be a roadmap to the
membership and amongst other things, i think it is important to mention that this policy will encourage georgia and ukraine to improve practices and advance their agenda because nato's policy remains in up report and -- and drive policymakers. it helps our countries -- it helps our country's -- countries'r
institutions, both locally and militarily. this is also nato's interest to support the interests of the countries. by doing so, nato will expand the community of like-minded, faithful, and predictable democracy. so i think it is in nato's interest as well. [inaudible] to the security of the region. [inaudible] our strategic location put both ukraine and georgia at the center of any debates in the region. from our point of view, we need joint participation with georgia and ukraine.
[inaudible] last but not least, in our view, nato should identify russia as the main threat to security of its partners. ukraine have history of dealing with russia and can theelpful in identifying threats. low intensity conflict in which orsia has been involved which russia has initiated because we should remember that russia at the moment is the number one producer of frozen
quantity. it is a convenient place to undermine international law, which involves smuggling and that involves uncontrolled trafficking. i think i will stop here and turn now to our recommendations. >> thank you very much. this was a very good kick off i would say. i do appreciate you going over ukraine's role, not only as a consumer, but as a security provider. i think that is a pretty important point. i hear they're making a plea to better consider rule of countries like georgia and ukraine. about how some point to do this.
what would be your recommendation from a georgian perspective? >> >> first of all, thank you very much to the organizers and to our partners for producing this report. it is great, because i actually do see a huge value in hearing the voices. if you look at how the realities on the ground but also how the dynamics are changing, i think the value of the partners will be increasing in years to calm, because the collective defense as such -- you have to have a holistic view about the collective defense. the companies that have been in close cooperation and partnership nowadays and if seeing the natural resolution of this partnership for 30 years and have been reliable partners throughout this time, in a neighborhood which actually sees a very unpredictable environment has been stably democratic, i would say, maybe not
consolidated of course but we are still trying to keep ourselves on the track of being democratic. i think that is extremely important. as mentioned, we have been contributing to international security. georgia is small, ukraine is bigger than us, but we were -- bigger than us but we were trying to punch above our weight because in spite of having internal problems of our own, i think georgia and ukraine have made a very serious case of being contributed but also credible partners throughout this time. ofant to paint a big picture why it is a window of opportunity for both sides, for nato, georgia and ukraine. the region has seen a very dramatic change of the dynamics in the recent weeks, for about a month and a half, and we have a
very different status quo right now. many see this not only as a perception level right now but on a practical level as a weakness of the west in the way, seeing it as pushed out or cut out of a region which it -- which actually, traditionally as always been present -- region in which it has actually traditionally always been present. nowadays, the status quo actually says something else, and considering that, and considering that georgia and ukraine remain pro-western for quite some time, i think for nato and for the ones coming up should think about what is going to be the value of these countries in different dimensions. i will try to explain what are these dimensions. i will talk about the dimensions, the military ones, but also something we have to be thinking about, provided there will be a rethinking in washington after the new administration comes in.
some of the points that will be made already are pretty interesting in a way. i think there will be a new for the region as well. with that in mind, i would like to make two cases now. this is also part of our report, i think young democracies like georgia and ukraine deserve to have a better understanding and to have better traction, because they are the ones who have proven to continue the democratic trend in the region. others are looking up at us. belarus, many of the people are thinking everything is deadlocked in our region as well. then there was a very interesting development in armenia. everyone was thinking that that
is not going to happen, but it is happening because they heed a successful -- of being present in the vicinity, or the region. if you have young democracies like georgia or ukraine and you give them a chance, an open door policy,, the selectivity of the open-door policy definitely should not be the case. while we are building this case, there is a very clear political message. we do have a clear political message for quite some time, but those messages should be sent out my more practical means. frankly speaking, you know, no one in the region has a problem with the practical side of our operation, with nato. we are enhanced opportunities partners, we have very good initiatives, and these will continue for quite some time. there is understanding that that
is left behind. this is also an opportunity for nato. relevant toves nato. nato has to find this out be relevant. thannk this is much more just military consideration but that is the power that they can have. i think that is a very important element. strategicmes to considerations, -- i think they are extremely important. we also help others going from
the russian cloud. -- we have been trying to get away from the russian cloud to be independent and to have a free hand. let it be land, maritime, or air , cargo is extremely important. in the years to come, we will see that other players will be answering the region. right now, it has been more cautious for some of them, but china is definitely having plans to get more. they are thinking about various projects. we can talk about that as well. there is going to be a turkey connection, which is a member of nato, but with increasingly independent policy. that is a new factor, i think, that all of us have to be thinking about. georgia is a partner and is an ally of turkey, and has been continuing for quite some time. of course, we have russia. russia always has so-called quotation marks, a special
understanding of where they are and why they are in the region. considering the inclusion of georgia and ukraine and a new wave of political extension will be extremely important. there is a greater value to nato as well, because nato has space -- states in the black sea, everyone recognizes that the eastern flank needs to be reinforced. everyone understands that. >> let me just ask you to round up here because we want other speakers to intervene. >> just two more minutes, one minute? >> 30 seconds. >> 30 seconds, ok. georgia and ukraine are indispensable when it comes to the plan southeast of the alliance. i think that is extremely important and there are different ways, and i can talk later about initiatives, which
will be coming up shortly. >> we will get back to some of your points. we want interactive, crisp debates. let's make sure we have time for everyone to intervene. joiningu very much for us. you presented some of your conclusions today with the nato leadership. i would love to hear your insights there, but also perhaps let me give you this question, if i may. almost 10 years ago, nato also had a group of experts which was then chaired by madeleine albright, and there it -- their job was to advise on nato 2020. i remember the big debate back then was whether nato should be alliance that should
be engaged globally or if it was only to focus on article five territory. do you think the debate today is different? if nato has strengthened its partnerships, it needs to be outward looking. >> i will answer your question, very quick. the debate goes on, surely, but owe you one point of explanation. yes, today we were able to finally -- for nato secretary-general. unfortunately, for today's meeting, we are still obliged to
keep silent until obliged by the nato foreign ministers, silence -- silent until there debate, which is to happen on december 1. then our report is to become public. please maintain some patients. i think i am so much intertwined in the affairs of georgia and ukraine and particularly both countries to nato, which might be interesting to all of you. -- my remarks might be interesting to all of you. i still remember my visit to ukraine. it was august of 2006. standing together with the foreign minister in front of a
panel of journalists. we were debating ukraine's eventual exception to international organizations like the eu, and there were some remarks about nato as well. i would say the spirit about nato was rather -- not ambivalent, it was rather negative. everyone was afraid of speaking openly about nato, although i know the will was already there at that time. surely, the last six years and ukraine fighting for its territorial integrity made a
change within public perception. also, engagement of ukraine in many -- in between, ukraine signed a framework agreement with you as well. in my previous capacity as chairwoman on security and defense, i met both ukraine and georgian soldiers in many nations all over the world. truly, i can prove with my own eyes that both countries are providers of security for a new member states and nato allies. that is true. that is true. both countries are extremely important, and same with georgia.
i still remember talking to numerous representatives of nato allies, and most predominantly georgian population -- it is most prominently the most pro-nato in the world. now within nato, we tend to complain about public support, necessity to extend public diplomacy programs to ensure, to convince our populations of the value and benefits and contributions of nato to world security. why in georgia is it evident the major part of society thinks
like this? it is now very positive in both countries. i still remember another event. at that time, i was the head of the late president's chancellery. i was sent by him to consult with some. in particular, those who were reluctant about both countries obtaining maps at this time. i remember all engagement -- the
debates and all engagements. everything jumped before my eyes and those discussions. yes, it was a promise in bucharest, and i think both countries will become nato members. later on, i remember responses of others during the nato parliamentary assembly. i think it was at that time when -- welied very clearly this.o repeat
they witnessed all those things. i hope that the developments of nato, because open-door policy is still valid, it ended knowledge -- and acknowledged by all of us. it is sometimes difficult to end tensions and a very difficult debate. we remain united. that is a contemporary message about nato. we have been the most successful ally. we want to stay like this and surely, georgia and ukraine are, in my private opinion, which i am entitled to say now, are very important factors to keep this position of nato. thank you. >> thank you very much for your encouraging words. i'm sorry, it's important that
personalities like yours express these opinions. it is most useful. let me turn to our last but not least, gaia guidah. you are deeply involved in the policymaking and agenda setting, so thanks for joining us. i wanted to, perhaps, poke your brain with a small question here. we have been hearing from all our speakers that look, ukraine and georgia, we are security providers as well, and nato and the alliance all benefit from our potential membership. my question to you is that membership is not that easy, it is not based on quantitative measurements. it is also a political decision.
how, from your perspective, do we deal with this need for political decisions? >> thank you, first of all, let me express our apologies for not having today, deputy prime minister. she was really looking forward to this event, due to some unforeseen situation, she had to be at a very important meeting. we are very sorry for this, but i am very grateful to all of you, all members, and to the center for organizing this event, and especially we are grateful to experts who provide their opinion and recommendations, and very solid analysis of ukraine and georgia's contribution to
atlantic security and their role in you security architecture. it is very important for us, for the government, and i hope that nato and the reflection group also will take into account their recommendations. i know that the ukrainian center of defense met about recommendations of immunity. we are lucky to have such strong involvement of experts in this process. as for your question yesterday, we had a very good discussion, also organized by the center, and we talked about nato, enhanced opportunities, and how ukraine can take advantage of this program.
while our foreign partners say that we should talk not only about military availability, but also political ones. we want to make ukraine politically the same as the nato members. i think when we will have this common understanding, then ukraine also underwent this important political reforms that ukraine achieved through the rule of law. then there will be no question at all of membership. it is a matter of time, and now
we should work on our home task. i would like to make a few points, if i may, about the ukraine region from the government, about what is the future, are all in your atlantic security. >> sure, of course. >> we are on the same page with the experts, so our region is very close to those presented by experts, but i would like to express these viewpoints. ukraine's participation in that reflection process is a good example of support, and it also shows that ukraine is important from development in the next 10
years. we should always keep this in mind. ukraine is part of european security, so it is logical that ukraine would take back in this process. we appreciate the alliance for their trust and confidence in us. nato has a strong commitment to open-door policy and --. i'm sorry, can we take a short break, because i think the deputy prime minister will join us. >> absolutely. while you are securing the participation of the deputy prime minister, we will get to some questions. we have some comments on what was said.
let me take some of the observations of our viewers. some viewers are referring also to the role that russia plays in this whole equation. we have a comment here, a retired u.s. ambassador, who says that president george bush back then pledged that nato will not come to the russian border, and is there any indication that this policy has changed? that's one question we got. we also have viewers who say that perhaps we went to fast, the european union and nato with our integration to the east and not understanding moscow. these are two comments we received. i just want to ask our panel, obviously, nato has relationships with ukraine and
georgia -- should we consider those, what russia means for this? you first. >> thank you. just a quick comment on a question, [inaudible] gorbachev himself said in 2014, i believe that there is a pledge from nato member states included, so i am happy to discuss it here, actually. as far as i remember, what the germans and americans agreed to, back in 1990, there would be no non-german nato forces in the territory of the former gdr.
there was an informal agreement that they came to like that but there was no pledge. i think it is important to because i know this narrative is very popular. >> the ambassador is reacting, saying that gorbachev himself denies that. >> that's what i said. it was in 2014. i think he was interviewed by the german media -- i don't remember. on russia, yes, you know, our position is that russia should not have that right on our integration to nato, and you
and we've had similar discussions. for example, during last couple of years, when ukraine applied for eop, and they were also concerned and found the member states were quite reluctant to grant ukraine this status, explaining that it could destabilize the region. it could provoke russia. but ukraine was granted the status a couple of months ago, four months ago, and actually nothing happened because we were quite consistent.
that,lained why we needed why it is important for nato and the nations. had the feeling were ar relations stationary bike. are invested in local power. we are not moving forward. eop waswhy this important, and now we have to energy in order to get membership action plan. georgia, because our position here at my position, and i know that many
ukrainians share this position that [indiscernible]. they made a lot of progress really, in terms of adopting ,ato standards [indiscernible] russia should not have [indiscernible]. >> i appreciate that you stress the fact that there were concerns that russia would be agitated, they are not concerns at all. statesse in the united that are concerned, from your experience, how do we deal with those states that have concerns with no grounds apparently. continue with the question posed before, because it actually is related, nato is
[indiscernible]. sensitivities, i do not see that being legitimate. not seek out the outcome which will be beneficial for all. they have their own worldview and they want everyone else to compare with that. also i agree about the third party veto. it is extremely important. stands we areple going to be undermining many why nato pillars of [indiscernible]. when it comes [indiscernible]. >> i see the deputy prime minister just joined from the car and she has a very limited amount of time. thanks for joining us.
please enjoy your car ride. ares really wonderful you with us for this amount of time. we have a very simple question for you, deputy prime minister. is ukraine's major integration on track and what are the priorities for your country on this track. so really sorry i did not manage to join earlier but we had just finished a discussion with the president. i decided i would be late but i would deliver on the result. indeed this question is the easy one, because things are very well on track. ukraine got the status with nato. will prepare the roadmap of our participation at this time. are very much eager to
have that political dialogue with the cabinet. ukrainian military forces have been extremely developing [indiscernible]. we are ready to talk about broader context. we are talking about the role of the countryrally as have toegion and we discuss future membership of nato, but overall security issues. they will have this discussion on the reflection process [indiscernible]. the new administration will show [indiscernible]to the global arena.
gets bad again. [indiscernible] reflection internally with a very good feed on nato standards on the legislation of security from sense [indiscernible] the president and myself for witnessing this because i am the deputy prime minister in charge of integration and i chair the commission for [indiscernible] all the issues and we are here to see the process often and
that is happening. thankuty prime minister, you so much for those remarks. your connection is slightly unstable so i think we will have you enjoy your car right at we are grateful for your time to join these remarks and your message was very well received. thank you very much and we wish you a very pleasant evening. to you.et back the deputy prime minister has said ukraine is on track. we are modernizing. heard allsly we also of these achievements have not reaction from russia. how do we now further .indiscernible]
>> i think the most important is the political will and understanding the importance of both countries. ukraine as our partners. we are quite complicated international environment. we acknowledge both countries being on track, there is also incentive for governments and respective societies to continue reforms. important tomely haveome intentions to broad support to overcome divisions.
current reflection process is dedicated at the very beginning during operations to enhancing political [indiscernible] of nato. issues have also to be taken into account. and natooth eu maintain the process of cooperation between both organizations. georgia and ukraine are terms of important in e.u.. they are associated countries
with strong voices to make special efforts to bring them isser and in particular it quite loud and might region, central and eastern europe. i assure the view that was presented that we have geopolitical changes, a growth picture as well and we have to bringhat into account and countries in more stable in our neighborhood. historically but in terms of recent reforms. [indiscernible] russia, we tend to repeat
country should not have to be to write. eu [indiscernible] friendly. actually it was russia's choice to pursue rather aggressive policy and we have to take that maintaining, communication with the kremlin as well. >> thank you. let me get back to you. apologies to cut you short a few minutes ago. she mentioned the need for political will. iane is a question from that i want to transfer to you. what can georgia and ukraine do to sway the western position
that we need to ratify any membership? change the views according to your opinion. >> first of all we have to continue being reliable. i will explain what i mean. it means we have to be a reliable democracy. the value ofink being a young democracy, which actually continues to be successful and having that practical dimension is important , because we have to show that we are a functional state. we have to be able to graduate from any dysfunctionality associated with this part of the region. we have to be reform minded, and i am pretty sure that when the time comes if we continue on
that track there will be a window of opportunity. be a bigger change of picture. the other thing is i think the government here in georgia have to understand [indiscernible] >> hello. continued to knock on the door. can you hear me? >> we hear you once again. >> we also have to be continue to knocking on the door. it is important to knock on the will which isct a uninterrupted that we want to be nato members. we have to continue to be part of international missions. we have to continue to
contribute to any mission which we think our participation will add value to. athink there is also significant importance to the publications. explaining what we mean by our values and had that will be coming forward. i am pretty sure there was skepticism with any type of withgement we were seeing nato, the eu. i talked to a lot of people in the baltic countries and they were telling stories no one wanted to cure their arguments in the beginning. it was a nonstarter in the beginning. i actually do believe if we continue the evolution, if we continue doing our job of being a reform minded and continue
with our democracy there will be a time where there is simply not going to be a lot of opportunities to refuse to come up with no answers. but of course there are also considerations that i am talking about when it comes to the changes. i think the value will be seen in where we are and how we have behaved so far. >> thank you. let me get back to you for a second. we have a question which i would like to address by a fellow in italy. she is basically asking whether you see future cooperation between nato and the eu european partnership initiatives in the areas we are discussing today. she is also arguing that reforms undertaken in ukraine and other countries may be regressing and
whether this regression of reforms will impact any possibility for nato membership? >> uhhhhh. on the reforms i think sometimes -- on some direction -- please do not forget that ukraine probably is the country in the world now which is implementing reforms and to which has improved its democracy. well-being attacked while waging , a war.
the only war in europe which is the russian war against ukraine. it is not approving conflict unfortunately. it is still like a war. that is why we are even in terms of reform, we have a lot of -- setback in some reforms. politicians -- pro-russian politicians, political forces who are supported by russia and who are promoting the russian narrative in ukraine and i would suggest carefully to assess those narratives. because some of the processes and some of the signs show up,
but you know that -- [indiscernible] we also witnessed elements -- some elements of warfare. what i would like to say is the picture is quite complicated. it is not black and white. there are some improvements and some practices -- the situation is really complicated and still ukraine is moving forward and that is why it is very important to have this light at the end of the tunnel. to see that this membership
empower by and to this perspective politicians and the united. >> thank you very much. unfortunately we are nearing the end of this event. i would like to turn our final comments to the deputy prime minister who has rejoined us for maybe final comments. before we close, you are now part of the nato reflection process as well. do you see any opportunities for eu nato cooperation to strengthen the resilience of countries like georgia and ukraine? >> i think that both countries -- both organizations are very much focused on cooperation with
the georgia and ukraine and they -- there is very strong support for both countries. i just wanted very briefly to comment on earlier and a question or remark about reforms in both countries. we have to remember how difficult it was to implement reforms. in my region, after changes in poland in 1999 in other countries slightly later, just a few months. just a few months later in peaceful times.
things happened to westernize -- western eu member states after crisis in 2008. now try to imagine implementing very harsh and very challenging reforms and at the same time defending territorial integrity. in the case of ukraine, very open conflict. we have to remember about authorization in georgia as well. the absorption of georgia's territory goes on a daily basis. we have to take this into account. extremely difficult to maintain public support. it is our role to stand by them
and support them. yes i can imagine cooperation, i , see the will to cooperate both within the eu and nato on those issues. thank you. >> thank you very much for those final words. thank you for rejoining us. the whole event has been confirming that georgia and ukraine are security providers as well as security -- even though some member states may still need some convincing that membership is a good thing for the alliance as a whole. we have viewers on this event covering all of europe and
north america. what would the final message to our viewers be regarding today's topic? >> thank you. at least a couple more remarks about the division of ukraine from the perspective of contributors to global security. i think that this is the core of the positive agenda that ukraine is bringing towards europe atlantic integration. basically it was a very , important question in regards to reform. you are asking whether things are well on track. let's recollect in our memory the year of 2019 when the president and the parliament were reelected. faces, a fresh agenda, but still now -- expecting for ukrainian
politicians to smile unanimously and say things are going on track and then nothing happens. the reality is totally different. of course there is a huge informational space and many things are happening at the same time. you may not always see the huge reforms and transformations which are taking place. the banking reform, the president has adopted the nato security strategy -- is the core principle of the strategy. on the procurement about to adopt the law on the reform of security service. these are the things that went unnoticed basically in our country. this is something positive that is not very good and nice for the news. but i am grateful that partners
see it. another quality of discussion. i am really grateful that they confirmed that there is a need to have the dialect. the progress we show and the commitment we show and the personal commitment of the president and also confirmed by his personal changes in formal exchanges with the secretary-general as regards to eop and other things. this enables us to think more strategically. contributes we can not only in building stronger resilience of allies but we can be stronger contributors to the region in terms of the security -- i think this is something that's
now lacking in terms of the broader agenda. we are putting a lot of effort into the new u.s. administration to be fully formed by january of 2021. aboutk the global world to play in this national arena will bring more ukrainians to the agenda and bring more inspiration to consider ukraine as the leader and contributor to the security transformation of the region. just to finish, i'm really happy that those partners who support ukraine see the progress and transformations. just to name the issues. do you see me? >> we do see you. >> i am really happy that we are having this discussion right in the middle of the nato
reflection process, which hopefully will show us how our allies see the materialization of the open-door policy. looking forward to that end working hard from that. thank you for this discussion and greetings to our georgian colleagues, we have so much to discuss on a daily basis. >> thank you very much for your final words and a touch of optimism. it is always a good moment to end our discussion. on this note, this is the end of our event. i regret for our viewers that there is no more time for questions, but i do congratulate all of you. i had a lot of fun discussing this issue. there is definitely more need for debate around this topic. we will definitely do that. it's not the last event we will
organize around this issue. let me also thank again our partners here. we are very grateful for your support. thank you for joining us. i wish to thank my own team, they have been very instrumental in bringing us together. i do wish everyone a very good evening or a very good afternoon. thank you and i will see you next time. , your are watching c-span unfiltered view of government, created by america's cable television company as a public service and brought to you by your television provider. >> next, on q&a, author elaine weiss talks about her book, the women's hour.