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tv   January 6 Hearings Fourth Hearing on Investigation of Capitol Attack  CSPAN  June 22, 2022 2:26am-3:38am EDT

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investigate the january 6th
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attack on the united states capitol will be in order. without objection, the chair is authorized to declare they committee in recess at any point. pursuing the house deposition authority regulation ten, the chair announces the committees approval to release the deposition material presented in today's hearing. good afternoon. in our last hearing we told this story of a scheme driven by donald trump to pressure former vice president mike pence to illegally overturn the election results. we showed that when the pressure campaign failed and mike prints failed his constitutional obligations donald trump turned a violent mob loose on him. he showed that the mob came
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within roughly 40 feet of the vice president. today we will show what happened to mike pence was not an isolated part of donald trump's scheme to overturn the election. in fact, pressuring public servants into betraying their oaths was a fundamental part of the playbook. a handful of election officials in several key states stood between donald trump and upending american democracy. as we begin today, it is important to remember when we count the votes for president, we count the votes state by state. for the most part, the candidate who win the popular vote in a state winds all of these states electoral college votes. and, whoever wins a majority of electoral college votes wins the presidency. when donald trump tried to overturn the election results,
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he focused on just a few states. he wanted officials at the local and state level to say the vote was tainted by widespread fraud and throughout the results. even though, as we showed last week, that was not any voter fraud that could have overturned the election results. and, like mike pence this public servants would not go along with donald trump's scheme there. when they would not embrace the big lie and substitute the will of the voters with donald trump's will to remain in power, donald trump worked to ensure they would face the consequences. threats to people's livelihood, and lives. threats of violence that donald trump knew about and amplified. and, in our other hearings we cannot just look back at what happened in late 2020 and early
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2021 because the danger had not gone away. a mighty test on january 6th and in the days before. we say our on students piled. what does that really mean? democratic institutions are not obstructions or ideals. they are local officials that oversee elections. secretaries of state, people with whom we have placed our trust that they will carry out their duties. what if they do not? two weeks ago the mexico held its primary elections. one county commission refused to certify the results, citing they had vague, unsupported claims dealing with dominion voting machines. the courts stepped in, saying the mexico law required the commission to certify the results. two of the three members of the commission finally relented. one still refused, saying his
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vote is not based on any evidence, it is not based on any facts. it is only based on my gut feeling and my own intuition. that is all i need. by the way, a few months ago this county commissioner was found guilty of illegally entering the capitol grounds on january 6th. this story reminds us of a few things. first, as we have shown in our previous hearings, claims that widespread mode earth rod tainted the 2020 presidential election have always been a lie. donald trump knew they were a lie and he kept amplifying them anyway. anything we described today, the relentless destructive pressure campaign on state and local officials was all based on a lie. donald trump knew it, he did it
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anyway. second, the lie has not gone away. it is corrupting our democratic institutions. people that believe that liar now seeking positions of public trust. and, as seen in new mexico their oath to be to the people they serve will take a backseat to their commitment to the big lie. if that happens, who will make sure our institutions do not break under the pressure? we will not have a close calls, we will have a catastrophe. my distinguished colleague from california, mr. schiff will present much of the select committee's finding on this matter. first, i am pleased to recognize our vice chair, miss cheney of wyoming for any opening statements she would care to offer. >> thank you very much, mister chairman. today we will begin examining
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president trump's effort to overturn the election by pressure of state officials and legislatures. president trump had intellect and personal role in this effort as did rudy giuliani. other words, the same people who were attempting to pressure vice president mike pence to reject electoral vote illegally were also simultaneously working to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election at the state level. each of these efforts to overturn the election is independently serious, each deserves attention both by congress and by our department of justice. as the federal court has already indicated, these efforts were already part of a better plan. preparation from january 6th. i would note 2.4 particular focus today, first, today you will hear about calls made by
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president trump to officials of georgia and other states. as you listen to these tapes, keep in mind what donald trump already knew at the time he was making those calls. he had been told over and over again that his stolen elections allegations were nonsense. for example, this is what former attorney general bill barr said to donald trump about allegations in georgia. >> we took a hard look at this ourselves and based on our review, including the interviews of the key witnesses, the fulton county allegations had no merit. there would be ballots under the table, there were legitimate ballots, they had been pre-opened for eventually feeding into the machine. all of the stuff about the water lake another with some subterfuge involved. we found there was some
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confusion but there was no evidence of subterfuge to create an opportunity. we do not see any evidence of this in a fulton county episode. >> acting deputy attorney general richard donahue told donald trump this. >> i said something to the effect of, sir, we have been nothing but investigations. the major allegations was not supported. >> mr. trump was told by his own advisers that he had no basis for his own election claims. he continued to pressure state officials for results. second, you will hear about a number of threats and efforts to state officials to reverse the election outcome. one of our witnesses today, gabriel sterling, explicitly warned president trump about potential violence on december
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1st 2020. more than a month before january 26. you will see reform efforts from that video repeatedly today. >> it hasn't even too far. all of it. joe today asked for chris krebs, this patriot to be shot. a 20 something with death threats and a noose put out saying he should be home for treason because he was reporting on batches from an ems to a county computer. it has to stop it. mister president, you have not condemned these actions or this language. senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions.
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this has to stop, we need you to step up and if you are going to take this leadership then so some. my boss, secretary raffensperger, his address is out there. they have people doing caravans by their house, people have come on to their property. it has to stop. this is elections, this is the backbone of democracy and all of you who have not said a word are complicit in this. >> the point is this, donald trump did not care about the threats of violence. he did not condemn them, he made no effort to stop them. he went forward with his fake allegations anyway. one more point, i would urge all of those watching today to focus on the evidence the committee will present. do not be distracted by
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politics, this is serious. we cannot let america become a nation of conspiracy theories and the violence. finally, i want to thank our witnesses today for all of your service to our country. today, all of america will hear about the selfless actions of these men and women who acted honorably to uphold the law, protect our freedom, and preserve our constitution. today, mister chairman, we will all see an example of what truly makes america great. thank you, mister chairman. i yield back. >> without objection, the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. schiff, for an opening statement. >> thank you, mister chairman, and madam vice chair. on november 3rd 2020, donald trump ran for reelection to the office of the presidency and he lost. his opponent, joe biden, finished ahead in the key battleground states of arizona, michigan, wisconsin,
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pennsylvania, georgia, and elsewhere. nevertheless, and for the first time in history the losing presidential candidate fought to hold on to power. as we have seen in previous hearings, he did so through a variety of means, on election day he sought to stop the counting of the vote knowing that they millions of absentee ballots, elections officials would be counting on election day and thereafter would run strongly against him and deliver a victory to joe biden. next, and when he could not stop the counting he tried to stop state legislatures and governors from certifying the results of the election. he went to court and filed dozens of frivolous lawsuits, making unsubstantiated claims of fraud when that also failed he mounted a pressure campaign directed at individual state legislators to try and get them to go back into session and declare them the winner, decertify joe biden as the winner, or send two slates of
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electors to congress. one for biden and one for him. and pressure vice president pence to chose him as the winner. but, the state legislatures would not go along with this came, another with the vice president. none of the legislatures agreed to go back into special session and declare him the winner. no legitimate state authority in these states donald trump lost would agree to a point fake trump electors and send them to congress. this did not stop the trump campaign either. and got them to call themselves electors. created phony certificates associated with these fake electors. then they translated these certificates to washington and the congress to be counted during the joint session of congress on january 6th. none of this worked. according to federal district judge carter, former president
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trump and others likely violated laws by engaging in a scheme, including conspiracy to defraud the united states. you'll hear evidence of the former president and his top advisers direct involvement in key elements of the plot, for web judge carter called, a coup in search of a legal theory. as the judge explained, but president trump's campaign to stop -- did not end with vice president pence, it targeted every tier of federal and state officials. convincing state legislatures, he said, to stop the count and ensure president trump's reelection. as we have seen in our prior hearings, running through this scheme was a lie that the election was plagued with massive fraud, and some hostile. you'll remember what the presidents attorney general
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billy barr said he told the president about these claims of massive fraud affecting the outcome of the election. >> and i told him the stuff his people were shoveling to the public were -- >> the presidents lie was and is a dangerous cancer on the body politic. if you could convince americans they cannot trust their own elections, anytime they lose is somehow illegitimate, then what is left but violence to determine who should govern? this brings us to the focus of today's hearing. when state election officials refused to stop the count, donald trump and his campaign tried to put pressure on them. the state executive officials refused to certify them as winner of states he lost, he applied more pressure. when state legislators refused to go and get to session and
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appoint trump -- anyone who got in the way of trump's attempt to hold on to power after he lost the election was subject to a dangerous and escalating campaign of pressure. this pressure campaign brought angry phone calls and texts, armed protests, intimidation and all too often threats of violence and. state legislators were singled out, so two were statewide election officials. even local i'm action workers doing their jobs were accused of being criminals and had their lives turned upside down. as we will show the president supporters heard the false allegations and claims of fraud and allegations against officials as call to action. >> [inaudible]
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you're a threat to democracy! you are a threat to free and honest elections! [inaudible] >> and about 45 minutes later we started to hear noises outside my home. and my stomach sunk and i thought -- and then we don't know, the uncertainty of that, that was the fear. where are they coming, are they going to attack my house? i'm trying to put my kid tibet. that was the scariest moment, not knowing what was going to happen. >> this pressure campaign against state and local officials expanded through
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numerous contested states. as you'll see in this video produced by the select committee. >> my name is, i'm in a counsel to investigate the january 6th attack on the united states capitol. the president and his lawyers appeared before state legislators urging them to give the electoral votes to trump, even though he lost the popular vote. >> i represent president trump, along with jenna ellis. this is our fourth or fifth here. >> this election has to be turned around because we won pennsylvania by a lot and a lot of the swing states by a lot. >> this was a strategy that was practical and legal elements. this was just two days after the election in which a trump campaign lawyer named mitchell asked another trump lawyer named eastman to write a memo justify the idea. >> when you remember this coming up as an option in the
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postelection period for the first time? >> right after the election. it might have been before the election. >> eastman prepared a memo attempting to justify the strategy, which was circulated to the trump white house, giuliani's legal team, and state legislators around the country. he appeared before the georgia state legislature to advocate -- you could >> adopt a slate of electors yourself. when you add in the mix of the significant statistical anomalies and sworn affidavits and video evidence of outright election fraud, i don't think it's just your authority to do that but i think you have a duty to do that, to protect the integrity of the election in georgia. >> republican officials in several states released public statements recognizing president trump's proposal was an awful. for instance, georgia governor kemp called the proposal, unconstitutional. arizona house leader said the
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idea would undermine undermine the rule of law. the campaign against -- president trump invited that delegations from michigan and pennsylvania to the white house. >> if you make a point to the president you are not going to do anything that violated michigan law. >> i believe it. whether or not those exact words were used. i think the words i'd likely use if we are going to follow the law. >> nevertheless pressure continued. the next day president trump tweeted,, quote hopefully the courts and or legislature will have the courage to do what has to be done. he posted multiple messages on facebook listing the contact information for state officials, urging his supporters to contact them to, quote, we demand a vote on the certification. in one of those polls,
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president trump disclose your personal phone number to his millions of followers. >> all i remember is receiving over just shy of 4000 text messages in a short period of time. calling to take action. there was a loud noise, a consistent cadence. we hear the trump folks are calling and asking for changes in the electors and you can bet guys can do this. well, they were believing things that were untrue. >> these efforts involved targeting outreach state legislators. >> my names -- i'm calling from trump campaign headquarters in washington, d.c.. you have the power to reclaim authority and electors that will support president trump
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and vice president pence. from president trump's lawyers and himself. >> i became friendly with legislators that i didn't know four weeks ago. >> another legislator, pennsylvania house leader color, received voice mailers from trump lawyers in the last week of november. >> mister speaker this is -- we're calling you to discuss obviously the election. >> hello mister speaker, this is jenna ellis, i'm here with mayor giuliani. >> hey brian, it's rudy, really have something important to call to your attention. >> color felt the outreach was inappropriate and asked his lawyers to tell rudy giuliani to stop calling. giuliani continued to reach out. >> i understand you don't want to talk to me now. >> on december 30th, trump ally steve bannon announced a
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protest at colors of. >> we're getting on the road and going to color and will start going to offices, if we have to go to homes and let him know what we think. >> multiple protests, i don't remember the exact number, there was at least three i think. outside either my district office or my home, and you're correct, my then 15-year-old son was home by himself for the first one. all of my personal information was online. it was my personal email, my personal cell phone, my home from number. in fact we had to disconnect our home for about three days because it would ring all hours of the night. it would fill up with messages. >> brian color, we are outside. >> full watchers denied access. >> these were another element. the trump campaign spent millions of dollars for ads online and television.
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public pressure on state officials were dangerous in the lead up to january 6th. [inaudible] the punishment for treason's death. >> the state pressure campaign and the danger it posed to state officials in the state capitals around the nation was a dangerous precursor to the violence we saw on january 6th at the u.s. capitol. today will hear from rusty bowers, republican speaker of the arizona house of representatives.
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, it how's oath of office would not permit. you will now hear from the republicans secretary of state for georgia, brad raffensperger, who trump directed to, quote, find 11,780 vote that did not exist. just the exact number of votes to overtake joe biden. you'll also hear from gabriel sterling, about the spurious claims of fraud in the elections in georgia and who responded to a cascading set of threats to his election team, wanted the president to start, someone was going to get killed. you'll hear from wandrea arshaye moss, a former election worker in fulton county, georgia, about the lies of the election impacting the lives of real people who administer our elections and still do you hear
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what they experienced when the most powerful man in the world, the president of the united states, sought to cling to power after being voted out of office by the american people. the system held but barely. the system held because people of courage, republicans and democrats, like the witnesses you'll hear today put their oath to the country and constitution above any other consideration. they did their jobs as we must do ours. thank you mister chairman and i yield back. . >> welcome our first panel of witnesses. we're joined today by a distinguished legislator from arizona, rusty bowers, our republican speaker of the arizona house of representatives. mr. bowers was elected to the state legislature in 1993. he served as speaker since 2019.
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welcome, speaker bowers. brad raffensperger is the 29th secretary of state of georgia serving in the role since 2019. as an elected official and a republican, secretary brad raffensperger is responsible for supervising elections in georgia and maintaining the states public records. welcome mister secretary. gabriel sterling is a chief operating officer in the georgia office. mr. sterling was the statewide implementation manager for the 2020 election in georgia, responsible for leading the secretary of state's response to the covid pandemic and rolling out modernized voting equipment. i will swear in our witnesses. witnesses will please stand and raise the right hand do you swear upon the penalty
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of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? thank you, please be seated. let the record reflect that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. speaker bowers, thank you for being with us today. you ought to speak -- your speaker of the arizona house and a self described conservative republican. you campaigned for president trump with him during the 2020 election. is it fair to say that you want to donald trump to win a second term in office? please. >> yes, sir. thank you. >> and is it your understanding that president biden was the winner of the popular vote in arizona in 2020? >> yes, sir. >> thank you. pursuant to section five c eight of house resolution 503, the chair recognizes the
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gentleman from california, mr. adam schiff, for questions. >> speaker bowers, thank you for being with us today. before we begin with the questions i have prepared for you, i want to ask you about a statement that former president trump issued, which i received just prior to the hearing. have you had a chance to review that statement? >> my council called from arizona and ready to meet. yes, sir. >> and that statement, i won't read it in its entirety, former president trump begins by calling you a rhino, republican in name only. he then references a conversation in november 2020 in which he claims that you told him that the election was rigged, that he had won arizona. to quote the former president, during the conversation he told me the election was rigged and i won arizona, unquote.
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did you have such a conversation with the president? >> i did have a conversation with the president. that certainly isn't it. but there were parts of it that were true, but there are parts that are not, sir. >> and the part that i read you, is that pulse? >> anywhere, anyone, anytime, who said that i said the election was rigged, that would not be true. >> and when the former president in a statement today claimed, that you told him that he won arizona, is that also false? >> that is also false. >> mr. bowers, i understand after the election, i don't know whether this is the conversation the former president is referring to, but after the election you received a phone call from president trump and rudy giuliani in which they discussed the result of the presidential election in arizona. if you would, tell us about that call and whether the
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former president or mr. giuliani raised allegations of election fraud. >> thank you. my wife and i had returned from attending our church meetings, it was on a sunday. we were still in the driveway and i had received a call from a colleague telling me that the white house was trying to get in touch with her and i. and she said, please, if you get a call, let's try and take this together. immediately, i saw the white house on my bluetooth was calling and i took the call and was asked by, i would presume, the operator at the where -- white house, if i would hold for the president, which i did. mr. giuliani came on first but, then the niceties, then president trump came on. we initiated a conversation. >> during that conversation,
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did you ask mr. giuliani for proof of these allegations of fraud he was making? >> on multiple occasions, yes. >> and when you asked him for evidence what did he say? >> he said they did have proof. i asked him do you have names? for example, we have 200,000 illegal immigrants, some large number. five or 6000 dead people, et cetera. i said, do you have their names? yes. will you give them to me? yes. the president interrupted and said, give the man what he needs, rudy. he said, i will. that happened on at least two occasions, that interchange and the conversation. >> so mr. giuliani was claiming in the call that there was hundreds of thousands of undocumented people and thousands of dead people who had reportedly voted in the election? >> yes. >> and you asked him for evidence of that?
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>> i did. >> did you ever receive from him that evidence either during the call, after the call, or to this day? >> never. >> what was the ask during this call? he was making allegations of fraud, but he had something, or a couple of things, that they wanted you to do. what were those? >> the ones i remember were first that we would hold, that i would allow an official committee at the capital so they could hear this evidence, and that we could take action thereafter. and i refused. i said, up to that time, the circus, i called it the circus, had been brewing with lots of demonstrations, both at the counting center, the capital, and other places, and i did not want to have that in the house. i did not feel that the evidence, granted, in its absence, merited a hearing.
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and i did not want to be used as a pawn. if there was some other need that the committee caring would fulfill. so that was the first ask. that we hold in official committee hearing. >> what was his second ask? >> i said, to wet end? to what end the hearing? he said, well, we have heard by an official high up in the republican legislature that there is a legal theory, or legal ability, in arizona that you can remove the electors of president biden and replace them. and we would like to have the legitimate opportunity, through the committee, to come to that end and remove that. and i said, that's totally new to me. i've never heard of any such
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thing. and he pressed the point and i said, look, you are asking me to do something that is counter to my oath when i swore to the constitution, to uphold it, and i also swore to the constitution and the laws in the state of arizona, and this is totally foreign as an idea or a theory to me, and i would never do anything of such magnitude without deep consultation with qualified attorneys. i said i've got some good attorneys, and i'm going to give you their names. but you're asking me to do something against my oath and i will not break my oath. and i think it was up to that point. >> during that conversation, and i think you heard when we played a snippet of giuliani calling other state legislators and saying he was calling essentially as a fellow
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republican. did he make a similar appeal to you, or the fact you shared a similar party? >> whether it was in that call or in a later meeting, he did bring it up more than once. >> how did he bring that up? >> he would say, aren't we all republicans here? i would think we would get a better reception. i would think you would listen a little more open to my suggestion. we are all republicans. >> and this evidence that you asked him for that would justify this extraordinary step, i think you said they never produced it. why do you feel what they were asking you to do would violate your oath to the constitution? >> first of all, when the people, and in arizona i believe some 40 plus years earlier, the legislature had established the manner of electing our officials, the electors for the presidential
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race. once it was given to the people, as in bush v. gore illustrated by the supreme court, it becomes a fundamental right of the people. so as far as i was concerned, for someone to ask me, there was no evidence being presented of any strength. evidence can be hearsay evidence, it's still evidence but it's still hearsay. but strong, traditional, quality evidence? anything that would say to me, you have a doubt, deny your oath. i will not do that. and on more than one occasion through all this, that has been brought up, and it is a tenant of my faith.
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that the constitution is divinely inspired. of my most basic foundational beliefs. so for me to do that because someone just asked me to? it's foreign to my very being. i will not do it. >> during that conversation, speaker bowers, did you ask him if what he was proposing had ever been done before? >> i did. >> and what did he say? >> he said, well i'm not familiar with arizona law or any other loss, but i don't think so. and that was also brought up another conversations, both with him and with john eastman and others. >> speaker bowers, i understand a week after that call mr. giuliani appeared with others associated to mr. trump's
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effort to overturn the results of the election in a hotel ballroom in phoenix. was this in official hearing of the state legislature? >> it was not. >> why was it not a real official hearing of the legislature? >> a legislator can hold a group meeting, he can call it a hearing, but when they ask me to have an official hearing, we established protocols, public notice, et cetera. it's typically held at the capitol, but it doesn't need to be. we can authorize a hearing off campus. i have been asked on several occasions to allow a hearing and denied it, but said you are free to hold any meeting you want to the person who asked, which he ultimately did. he was a little frustrated, but he ultimately did. >> this meeting was the same day, i believe, that the
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governor of arizona certified biden as the winner of the presidential election in arizona. did you meet with mr. giuliani and his associates while they were in phoenix sometime after that reported legislative hearing at the hotel? >> yes, i did, sir. >> and at that meeting, did mr. giuliani raise any specific allegations of election fraud again? >> his initial comments were, again, the litany of groups of illegal individuals or people deceased, et cetera. and he had brought that up, and i wasn't alone in that meeting, there were others and other members of the senate aggressively questioning him. and then, i proceeded to question him on the proof that he was going to bring me, et cetera, but he did bring that up, yes. >> these other legislators were also republican members of the senate? >> they were, yes, sir. >> did they also press him for proof of these allegations?
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>> they pressed him very strongly. two of them especially, very strongly. >> and at some point, did mr. giuliani ask one of the other attorneys on his team to help him out with the evidence? >> he did. he asked jen ellis, who was sitting to his right. one thing was, it was more to the point of, was there sufficient evidence or action that we could justify the recalling of the electors? but at that point of the conversation, i know he referred to someone else. but he did ask, do we have the proof to miss ellis? and she said yes. and i said, i want the names. do you have the names. yes. do you have how they voted? we have all the information. i said, can you get to me that information? did you bring it with you? she said, no.
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both mr. giuliani asked her and i asked generally if they brought up with them. she said no, it's not with me, but we can get it to you. and i said then you did not bring media evidence, which was repeated in different iterations for some period of time. >> at some point did one of them make a comment that they did not have evidence but they had a lot of theories? >> that was mr. giuliani. >> what exactly did he say and how it came up? >> my recollection, he said we've got lots of theories, we just don't have the evidence, and i don't know if that was a gaffe or maybe he did not think through what he said, but both myself and others in my group, three in my group and my counsel, both remember that specifically. and afterwards, we kind of laughing about it. >> getting back to the phone call that preceded this meeting. he wanted you to have the legislature dismiss the biden
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electors and replace them with trump electors on the basis of these theories of fraud? >> he did not say it in those exact words, but he did say that arizona law, according to what he understood, that would be allowed and needed to come into session to take care of that. which initiated the discussion about, again, what i can legally not legally do, i cannot go into session in arizona unilaterally or on my soul prerogative. >> were any of the meetings, did any of one provide you evidence to affect the outcome of the election in arizona? >> no one provided me such evidence, ever. >> the select committee has uncovered evidence in the course of our investigation -- the protests at state capitals across the country, individuals with ties to groups and parties involved in the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. one of those incursions took place in the arizona house of
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representatives building as you can see in this footage. this is previously undisclosed video of protesters entering and refusing to leave the building. one of the individuals prominently shown in this video is jacob chansley. perhaps better known as the qanon shaman, this rider entered the capitol on january 6th, was photograph leaving a threatening note in the senate chamber, and was sentenced to 41 months in prison after pleading guilty to obstruction of official proceeding. other protests to who occupied the arizona house of representatives building, included proud boys, men armed with rifles outside the entrance. i understand these protesters were calling for you know by name, speaker bowers, is that correct? >> did the president call you
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again in that later december? >> he did sir. >> did you tell the president in that second call you support him, that you voted for him, and that you are not going to do anything illegal for him? >> i did, sir. >> nevertheless, his lawyer, john eastman called you on june 4th, 2021, and he had a specific ask that would've required you to do just what you told the president you wouldn't do, something that would violate your oath, is that correct? >> that's correct, it wasn't just me. i had my counsel and others on the call. >> and what did doctor eastman want you to do? >> that we would in fact vote, take a vote to overthrow, i shouldn't say overthrow, that we would be certify the electors. because we had plenary authority to do so.
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he cited article two, i think it's clause two, in his opinion that gave us the authority. i don't recall him saying, sufficient evidence, but there was some call or some strong reason to do so that we had justification to do so that we can do that. and that he was -- his gestion was that we would do it. i said, again, i took an oath for me to take that, to do what you do, would be counter to my or. i don't recall if it was in that conversation that he talked more about the oath. but i said, what would you have me too? he said, just do it and let the court sorted. i said, you're asking me to do
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something that's never been done in history, the history of the united states. and i'm going to put my state through that? without sufficient proof? and that's going to be good enough with me, that i would put us through that, my state, that i swore to uphold in constitution and the law? no sir. he said, well, my suggestion would be just do it and let the courts figure it all out. he didn't use that exact phrase but that was what is meaningless. i declined, and i believe that was close to the end of our phone call. >> again, this took place after you recently spoke with president trump and told him that you wouldn't do anything illegal for him, right? >> it wasn't days after,
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obviously was days after, a few days gone by. >> you had told president trump you would not do anything illegal for him? >> i did, both. >> and you told doctor eastman you did not believe there was legal support to justify when he was asking. but he still wanted you to do it, effectively let the courts work it out? >> i've been warned, don't say things you think maybe set. but i do remember him saying that the authority of the legislature was plenary, and that you could do it. i said, you should know i can't even call the legislature in the session without a two thirds majority of. we're only 30 plus one, there's no way that could happen. >> in your view what he was asking you to do would have violated your oath to the constitution both the united states constitution and of the state of arizona? >> yes, sir. >> did you receive a call from
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u.s. representative andy biggs of arizona on the morning of january 6th? >> i did. >> what did mr. biggs ask you to do? >> i believe that was the day the vote was occurring. to each state to have certification. or declare certification of the electors. he asked if i would sign on both to a letter that had been sent from my state and that i would support a the certification of the electors, and i said, i would not. >> mister speaker, on december 4th, 2020, shortly after your meeting with rudy giuliani and other trump allies, years least statement addressing, quote, calls for legislature to overturn the 2020 certified election results. the state ministry foreign explaining the, quote, breathtaking requests,, unquote made by representatives of
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president trump. the legislature overturned the -- and liver the states electoral college votes to president trump, unquote. why did you believe as you wrote in the statement that the rule of law forbids you from doing what president trump and his allies wanted to do? >> representative, i'm sorry, i should be saying mister chairman, representative schiff. there's two sides to the answer. one is, what am i allowed to do? and what am i forbidden to do? we have no legal pathway, both in state law, nor to my knowledge and federal law, for us to execute such a request. and i am not allowed to walk or act beyond my authority. if i'm not specifically
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authorized as a legislator, as a legislature, than i cannot act. to the point of calling us into session. some say that just a few legislatures have plenary authority, and that's part of all of this discussion i will call it. so, to not have authority and before biden to act beyond my authority on both counts i'm not authorized to take such action and that would deny my oath. >> in your statement you included excerpts from president ronald reagan's inaugural address in 1981. the newly inaugurated present told the country, quote, the orderly transfer authority is called for in the constitution. routinely takes place as it has for almost two centuries, few of us stop to think how unique we really are. in the eyes of many in the world this every four-year
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ceremony we accept as normal is nothing less than a miracle. tell us, if you would mister speaker, why did you include president reagan's words in your statement? >> mister chairman, representative schiff, because i have a lot of bad admiration for ronald reagan. i had the opportunity of going to his home with one other person and walking through. i have a lot of admiration for him. when he pointed out which -- i have lived another country for a period of time and i visited a few countries and during election times, the fact that we allow an election, support an election, and stand
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by an election, even in the past when there have been serious questions about the election and then move on without disturbance and with acceptance that we choose, we choose to follow the outcome of the will of the people. that will it means a lot to me, and i know it means a lot to him, so i included. >> thank you speaker bowers. now i want to look even more deeply at the fake elector scheme. every four years, citizens from all over the u.s. goes to polls to elect a president. under our constitution when we
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cast our votes for president were actually voting to send electors pledge to our preferred candidate to the electoral college. in december, the electors in states meet and cast votes and send them to washington. there's only one legitimate slate of electors from each state. on the 6th of january, congress meets in a joint session to count the votes, the winner of the electoral college vote becomes president. in this next segment you'll hear how president trump and his campaign were directly involved in advancing and coordinating the plot to replace legitimate biden electors with fake electors not chosen by the voters. you hear how this campaign convinced these fake electors to cast and submit the votes through fake certificates telling them that their votes would only be used in the event president trump won the legal challenges. yet when the president lost those legal challenges, when courts rejected them as frivolous and without merit, the fake elector scheme continued. at this point president trump's
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own lawyers, so-called team normal, walked away rather than participate in the plan. his own white house counsel office said the plan was not legally sound. let's play the following video produced by the select committee. >> my name is casey looser, a vest of a gated council investigating the january 6th attack. on november 18, a lawyer working for the trump campaign wrote on the note arguing the trump campaign should organize his own electors in a swing state president trump had lost. the select committee routine sleeve testimony that those close to trump began organizing fake electors for trump in states that biden won in the weeks after the election. >> would you remember being involved in those early discussions around the thanksgiving time? but -- having alternate electors me? >> mr. giuliani, mr. giuliani's
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associates, mr. meadows, members of congress, it's difficult to distinguish the members i'm thinking were involved at thanksgiving -- >> at the presidents request, >> what did the president say when he called? >> he turned the call over to mr. eastman who then proceeded to talk about the importance of the rnc helping the campaign gather contingent electors in case legal challenges that were ongoing change the result. of any of the dates. [inaudible] my understanding is the campaign did take the lead and we just were helping them.
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. >> as trump in his supporters continue to lose, some campaign lawyers became convinced that the states trump laws were no longer appropriate [inaudible] . >> i called somebody saying, there must be a litigation pending in the states i don't think this is appropriate and it's not the right thing to do. i don't remember how i phrased it but, i got into a back and forth and i think it was with can cheese borough where i said, all right, get after it i'm out. >> at that point, i had josh finley email mr. chess borough politely to say this is your task. this is -- you are responsible for electoral college issues moving forward. that was my way of taking my
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responsibility to zero. >> the plan was also potentially illegal. >> to be clear, did you hear the white house counsel's office say that this plan to have alternate electors meet and cast votes for donald trump in states he lost was not legally sound? >> yes, sir. >> and who was present for that meeting that you remember? >> it was in our office, mr. meadows, mr. giuliani and a few of mr. giuliani's associates. >> the select committee interviewed several of the fake electors as well as trump staff that helped organize the effort. >> we were kind of useful idiots at that point. a strong part of me really feels it's kind of as the road continued butlers failure, failure, failure. that got formulated, as and what do we have on the table? let's just do it. >> after what we've told you today about the select committee's investigation about
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the conclusion of the professional -- lawyers on the campaign staff, about their unwillingness to participate in the convening of these electors, how does that contribute to your understanding of these issues? >> i'm angry, because i think in a sense no one really cared if people were potentially putting themselves in jeopardy. >> would you have not wanted to participate in this any further as well? >> i absolutely would not have, if i knew the three main lawyers for the campaign that i had spoken to in the past and leading up we're not on board. yeah. >> i was told that these would only count if a court ruled in our favor. so that would have been using
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our electors, it would have been using our electors and ways that we weren't told about. and we would not have supported it. >> documents obtained by the select committee -- that they needed to cast their ballots in complete secrecy. because this scheme involved fake electors, those participating in certain states had no way to comply with state election laws, like where the electors were supposed to meet. one group of fake electors even considered hiding overnight to ensure they could access the state capital as required in michigan. >> did mr. norton say who was working with that all? >> he said he was working with the president's campaign. he told me that the michigan republican electors were planning to meet in the capital and hide overnight so that they could fulfill the role of
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casting their vote per law in the michigan chambers. and i told him in no uncertain terms that was insane and inappropriate. >> in one state, the fake electors even asked for a promise that the campaign would pay their legal fees if they got sued or charged with a crime. ultimately, fake electors didn't meet on december 14th 2020 in arizona, georgia, michigan, pennsylvania, new mexico, nevada, and wisconsin. at the request of the trump campaign, the electors from these battleground states signed documents falsely asserting they were the, quote, duly elected electors from their state and submitted them to the archives and vice president pence. here is what some of the fake elector certificates look like compared to the real ones. but these ballots had no legal effect. in an email produced to the
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select committee, doctor eastman told a trump campaign representative that it did not matter that the electors had not been approved by state authority. quote, the fact that we have multiple slates of electors demonstrates the uncertainty of either. that should be enough. he urged that pence act boldly and be challenged. documents produced to the select committee showed that the trump campaign took steps to ensure that physical copies of the fake electors electoral votes from two states were delivered to washington for january 6th. text messages exchanged between republican party officials in wisconsin show that on january 4th, the trump campaign asked for someone to fly their fake electors documents to washington. a staffer for wisconsin senator ron johnson texted a staffer from vice president pence just minutes before the beginning of the joint session. this staffer stated that senator johnson wished to hand deliver to the vice president fake electors votes from michigan and wisconsin. the vice presidents aide
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unambiguously instructed them not to deliver the fake votes to the vice president. even though the fake elector slates were transmitted to congress and the executive branch, the vice president held firm in his position that his role was to count electoral votes. >> joseph r. biden junior of the state of delaware has received 306 votes. donald j trump with the state of florida has received 232 votes. >> which is what he did, when the joint session resumes on january 6th after the attack on the capital. >> we just heard in that video, an aide to the white house chief staff telling this committee that the white house counsel's office felt that this fake electors plan was not legally sound. nevertheless, the trump campaign went forward with the scheme anyway. speaker bowers, were you aware fake electors had been in phoenix on december 14th and to cast electoral votes for
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president trump? >> i was not. >> when you learned these electors had met and sent their electoral votes to washington, what did you think? >> well, i thought of the book, the gang that could not shoot straight. i just thought this is, this is a tragic parity. >> mr. bowers, i understand as you flew from phoenix to washington yesterday, you reflected upon some passages from a personal journal that you were keeping in december 2020 while all of this is taking place. with your permission, and wondering if you would be willing to share one passage in particular with us. >> thank you very much. it is painful to have friends who have been such a help to me turn on me with such rancor.
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i may, in the eyes of men, not hold correct opinions or act according to their vision or convictions. but i do not take this current situation in a-like manner, a fearful manner, or a vengeful manner. i do not want to be a winner by cheating. i will not play with laws i swear allegiance to. with any contrived desire towards deflection. of my deep, foundational desire to follow gods will as i believe he led my conscience to embrace. how else will i ever approached him in the wilderness of life
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knowing that i ask this guy dennis only to show myself a coward? in defending the course he let me take. he led me to take. thank you. >> mister speaker, those are powerful words. i understand that taking the courageous positions that you did following the 2020 election and defense of the rule of law and protecting the voters of arizona resulted in you and your family being subjected to protests and terrible threats. can you tell us how this impacted you and your family? >> well, as others in the videos have mentioned, we received an excess of 20,000 emails and tens of thousands of voicemails and texts, which saturated our offices and we were unable to work, or at least communicate. but at home, up until even
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recently, it is the new pattern, or a pattern in our lives, to worry what will happen on saturdays, because we have various groups come by and they have had video, panel trucks with video proclaiming me of being a pedophile, a corrupt politician. and blaring loudspeakers in my neighborhood, and leaving literature both on my property arguing and threatening with neighbors and with myself. i don't know if i should name groups, but there was one gentleman that had three bars on his chest, and he had a pistol, and was threatening my
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neighbor, not with the pistol, but just vocally. when i saw the gun, i knew i had to get close. and, at the same time, on some of these we had a daughter who was gravely ill, who was upset by what was happening outside. and my wife, who's a valiant person, very strong, quiet, very strong woman. so it was disturbing. just disturbing. >> mister speaker, i want to thank you for your service to the state of arizona and the country. mister chairman, at this point
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i think it would be appropriate to take a short recess. i reserved balance of my time. >> the chair requests that those in the hearing room remain seated until the capitol police have escorted members and witnesses from the room. we will have five minutes? five minute recess. [noise]


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