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tv   Michigan Georgia Secretaries of State on the Democratic Process  CSPAN  November 29, 2022 12:24pm-1:09pm EST

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grand prize at $5,000 by entering c-span's student cam video documentary contest. for this year's competition, we're asking students to picture yourself as a newly elected member of congress and tell us what your top priority would be and why. create a five to six-minute video showing the importance of your issue from opposing and supporting points of view. be bold with your documentary. don't be afraid to take risks. there is still time to get started. the deadline is january 20, 2023. for competition rnd ts on how to get started, visit our webse at >> the secretaries of state in michigan and georgia talked about elections and protecting the integrity of the democratic process with cbs news chief washington correspondent major garrett. the discussion hosted by the knight foundation is just over 40 minutes. live coverage, here .
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>> intersection of technology, media and democracy. i want to tell you upfront why this is so important to us at my foundation, particularly what is important to us at knight >> jack and jim knight in their day ran a newspaper business and service of informed and engaged communities. it grew into one of the country's largest and most successful news companies. a collection of community-minded
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newspapers. jack knights who sad more than 60 years ago that the purpose of his newspapers was to provide information, so that the people may determine their true interests. in that spirit, my foundation has long been dedicated to building trust at the base of democracy by supporting the consistent delivery of reliable news and information. so it is no surprise if anyone in this room or listening through the broadcast, that this mission has become more difficult. from inception, internet has had the potential to be the greatest democratizing tool that the world has ever known. technology has brought unprecedented opportunity through access to information and ideas. but with that seachange came a flood of misinformation and
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disinformation that has widened social divisions and continues to undermine trust. in addition technology seems to be scaling into a form of oligarchy allowing a small number of organizations or governments to control the dissemination of information. in the u.s., this sector is unregulated. and what regulation does it exist either exempts social media from all liability or was written for an analog world, hardly able to keep up with the blazing speed of today's technology. at the digital public square -- as a digital public square continues to evolve the challenges to an informed citizenry will intensify, power will further consolidate, governments will exert increased influence on political leaders who will offer solutions that will likely lead to repression
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to disastrous. the need for good data and thoughtful alternatives has never been more urgent. so, several years ago, knight begun founding scholarly research on media and democracy. all of these in hopes that the results would be useful to policymakers and respectful of a wide range of viewpoints. and by the way, i am so happy today to meet so many names to whom we have sent money. and finally to see what you all look like. it is great. two truths guide our choice to find this work. one is the technology, no matter how pervasive it becomes, is still and rapidly evolving. and the long-term societal impact is unknown. and second, technology has been
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an accessory to societal division. so the country is as split as we ever have seen in recent memory. and people are increasingly quick to ascribe bad motives to the other side. and so it is no surprise that survey after survey, whether it is gallup, pew, we work with all of them, indicate that there is little consensus about the solutions to the challenges these technologies presents. even while there is widespread concern about divisions and questions like what should antitrust landscape look like for digital platforms and how to deal with privacy. who owns my data. has section 230 outlived its usefulness. what content restrictions lead to -- what is the role of the fcc and what role more broadly does the federal government or the state government have?
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transparency into the social media do we need in order to regulate? my microphone seems to be going in and out here. unsure, if there is something that i am doing or that you are doing. ok, let's do that. the way we work at night is simple. but honestly difficult. we want to be as neutral as humanly possible as to content and we do not participate in politics or advocacy. what we try to do is to ensure that the table is set for informed, fact driven debate. so we have intentionally funded scholars with different viewpoints. if left, right, center, nobody has a monopoly on insights, especially not in a field as new as this one.
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that is our approach and i want to thank you all for joining us here in miami. it is an exciting, fertile time to debate these topics. there is an amazing appetite for the research. nowhere that we have -- no work that we have done has received so much attention so quickly from such a broad range of stakeholders as this has. we approached the work with humility and understanding, as a call to action, to encourage and help develop a field of inquiry many of you have pioneered. that will benefit society. and that, it seems to us, is appropriate for philanthropy. our vision, first to form in a diverse set of grants to standoff centers of excellence at carnegie mellon, gw, nyu, unc chapel hill, and the university of washington. it committed our decision to
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support think tanks with a range of points of view. and to support scholars at stanford, ut austin, indiana university and the university of wisconsin. and it guided our decision to announce today a new grants of 3.8 million dollars to the media forensics hub at clemson university. and i am delighted to note that the hub is co-led by darren who is here today. welcome. [applause] >> we actually only started funding in this area -- in fact, we do not use do any funding of scholarly research. but we begin in this area in 2019. since then, knight has committed more than $65 million to this research. the grant to clemson reflex our continued commitment to promote this field. our investment in clemson will
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support the house research about disinformation and its work to promote better societal resilience to information threats. the grants will also enable universities to recruit a diverse annual cohort of my fellows, graduate students who will cut their teeth at -- but bolster the fields general talent pipeline. clemson will match our investment. always good to hear for a funder. and higher for new tenured faculty who will advance scholarship and teaching, growing the university into a center for excellence for years to come. and of course here as everywhere, we welcome funding partners who share our respect for scholarly independence and intellectual diversity. our vision is to foster a field of inquiry that engages broad swaths of society with the
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common good as the northstar. we see a field that prides itself on the service to truth and to the practical application of learned insights. this is not for us on academic exercise. and for that to happen, the work will need to be translated into usable language as opposed to scholarly language and we can debate that. and disseminated as widely and effectively as possible. to that end, and this is probably going to make john nervous, we are actually actively -- because he does not like to talk about these things until they're done, they are done but we are actively exploring yet another center likely affiliated again with an institution probably in washington dc that will perform these functions of translation and dissemination. we are very serious about this. on a very practical level, there is also no mistaking that this is a moment of opportunity over
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the last few weeks. tech companies have laid off thousands of people with significant and relevant expertise. if there are specific opportunities where night resources can make a difference, we stand ready to support research and policy institutions that cannot leverage the tremendous talents now suddenly on the market. and put differently, you've got a line on someone from industry that you think will help your work, we would like to talk. over the next two and a half days, i hope we have productive debates, engage in thoughtful conversations, and build connections that can advance your work, advance the field and the common good. and i would like finally to say the perfectly obvious, foundation programs are only as good as the courage and imagination of their staff and affiliates. hours have been i think exceptional. at the risk of offending others
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that i will not mention, i want to single out sam gill, john sams, jonathan our consultant, john, the former chair of our board of trustees, and ashley. thanks also to susan gomez and her colleagues, who so well handled the arrangements for our first informed convening. and i thank you all for your good will end active participation. on what i hope will be your active participation in this conference. to give us a preview, it is my pleasure and privilege to introduce my colleague, my friend, the senior director for media and democracy at knigh foundation, john sams. ♪ >> all right, thank you all.
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you are too kind. let me echo this welcome to miami. it is so nice to share the space with you. i cannot wait to shake hands with you or whatever we are doing these days. i think on behalf of the entire team when i say how excited we are to host you for the next couple of days, a couple days of conversation, on some of the most critical issues facing our democracy today. gathered here along with represented is in government, philanthropy, civil society and the private sector are dozens of diverse scholars and experts from more than 50 institutions and nonpartisan policy, research knight has begun investing in in 2019. we call it the knight research network. this network is unified by shared investors, yes, but more so by the commitment to servicing the data and evidence
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that can inform the public dialogue on the design and governance of our public spaces of information sharing and engagement through digital age. the past three years have shown that this network is steadily becoming part of our countries critical intellectual infrastructure and its members are responsible for an astonishing output of scholarship and policy research to the benefit of all. to the extent that we have a national dialogue today about the corrosive effects of disinformation, the future of online speech, antitrust and transparency in accountability in the tech and media sectors, it is in no small part to the folks in this room. you are cultivating communities of scholarship and practice and informing significant outcomes around society. you are adding much-needed evidence to the public discourse about digital media and technology in developing evidence based approaches to
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addressing the asymmetry and digital harm so abundant in my nortel's communities. in the last three years you've published hundreds of articles, informative documents that are outlining the contours and expenses and growing field. your expertise is shaping the public understanding as well. evidence of your work with journalists and other informers is borne out almost daily on a national level. a growing number of you testified and provided expert commentary to legislative and regulatory in the u.s. and abroad. and knights is regularly sought out if not always acted upon by key players in the private sector. and you are identifying the emerging challenges and threats that underscore how important this field will be as technology forces a continued evolution of our information systems and institutions. this week's program is meant to capture a moment in time for the field and the conversations we
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plan to cover a range of topics at the heart of academic and policy debates today. i am especially pleased that we will hear from a number of leaders in government, a couple of them you will hear from later. these are especially well positioned to leverage the research many of you are producing. we are honored to be a hosting nelson from the white house science and technology office. the doctor has been heading up the national response to covid. rosie from the white house gender policy council. and ted who advises the president on tech and competition policy. we will also hear from facebook whistleblower francis in what i believe is her first interview with jeff since the two of them broke the facebook papers story in the pages of the wall street journal last year. and -- will sit down with -- and their first interview since leaving twitter. and there is much more. it is a really full agenda and we hope that these conversations are informed, inspired and that
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they challenge some of your assumptions. today, we get to begin with an exploration of the relationship between information, integrity and election integrity. to kick things off and to introduce our brilliant speakers it is my honor to welcome to this stage the ceo and founder of the center for election innovation and research, david becker. david? [applause] ♪ >> thanks so much. thank you, john, thank you alberto, thank you for everyone here at the knight foundation for bringing us together for this great convening. as john mentioned, i am the executive director and founder for the center of election innovation. we are a nonprofit and the work we primarily woke us on is -- focus on is supporting the men and women, republicans and
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democrats, professionals who run elections all over the country. from alaska to here in florida and unfortunately, over the last few years, that work has been more important than ever as election professionals all over the country have been under unprecedented stress. as you can tell, i am not exactly a fun person to have at a party, although fortunately, i think we do have to say that as we sit here today, we are in a much better place than we might have been a month ago. and that is due to the work of these professionals all over the country, many of whom are working literally right now as we speak, trying to get the simple ministerial function of certifying their elections finalized in states around the country. and as we sit here better off i can think of two people who
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represents the best of election officials and two of the election officials i am going to bring up here. republican secretary of state brad raffensperger of georgia and democratic secretary of state jocelyn benson of michigan, both of whom i have known for quite some time. jostling for longer than she would like to admit. -- jocelyn for longer than she would like to admit. they were both recently reelected and they both stand for the integrity and professionalism required more than ever in this space as they face unprecedented disinformation, harassment, and threats. as i mentioned, we are seeing counties today refused to certify election results. we have candidates who have lost by hundreds of thousands of votes and are refusing to concede elections. and this environment is really unprecedented. and this environment led the
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next person i am going to introduce, someone who needs no introduction, chief washington correspondent, as i worked with cbs over the last two election cycles, i got to know major and we got together in this environment. and we decided we had to tell the story of the professionals who are running election and talk about the damage that was being done in this environment, some of which you are going to hear from them shortly. it culminated in this -- is it ok if i plug the book for a second? [laughter] >> the big truth, upholding democracy in the age of the big lie. there are copies around, feel free to have it signed. if you want me to sign it, it's a little cheaper. it is my great pleasure to introduce secretary raffensperger of georgia, missed mention of michigan and major. you can hear them -- miss benson
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of michigan. you can hear them directly. [applause] ♪ >> it's great to be here. it is of no particular interest that i am here, but i want to tell you why i am here. very briefly. the first midterm election i covered was 1990, the first presidential election i covered was 1992. and until 2020, i had always overlooked one of the magical moments in american democracy which is election day. why is it magical? because it is quiet. it is a quiet day. what i mean by that is the politicians, their speechwriters, their strategists, their fundraisers, all of the activists have nothing to do. the work is done. they think they know what is going to happen, but they really do not. and they have to wait. they have to wait in that silent
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moment, to listen for something. and what they have to listen for is the collective voice of our country. of our people. and i do not want to always overlook that part of the process. taking it for granted. assuming it would always work and it was just something that happened. it is a beautiful, beautiful moment in any functioning democracy, that silence in which all the people who think they know what is going to happen cannot be quite sure. and they only know what is going to happen when they hear from the people. but there is an intervening group of people that we all rely on and that i overlooked for most of my career covering politics. the people who count the votes. the people who make the elections work, the people who gather those voices. and report them and render them
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to the rest of us. i always overlook that. i feel no small measure of shame that i overlook that. because it is really, really important. and now, i appreciate it more than i have in my entire life covering politics. and i am more curious about how it functions and how it works, because we have had this conversation going now for two years about those things. so people are legitimately curious. some people are just intentionally trying to defame and slander the process. but we have an energetic conversation about it because of the energy around this topic. so i just want to let you know why i am here because i care about this topic. i care more than i ever have in my entire career. and i am very glad to have secretary benson and raffensperger to talk about their experience in this most
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recent midterm and what they have gone through in the last two years. and i will just have a very broad question. i know secretaries of state love their states and have every data point about how their states function and how their states conduct elections. don't lose yourself in those particulars, but also secretary raffensperger, i will start with you. a broad assessment of where this conversation is, where this energy is an what this country either did or did not achieve in the midterm election. i think we show that we have honest and fair elections. i know we did in georgia. but also we saw some states took longer for them to tackle the certification process. they also don't understand how this processes work in different states. what can you do for voter education in 17 days of early voting, record turnout, very short lines. i screenshot it on my phone and i will show you later. the average wait time at the precinct got down to two minutes
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in the afternoon. the longest precinct on the leader board at the time was 14 minutes. then when you got to that part of the line there was 47 second check in time. secure elections, no one likes lines. at the end of the day, we finished up at 7:00 and tabular those results. it was all relatively quickly. we had a limiting audit, they all required 95%. we elevated another 5%, just to show this is what the results were. most of the counties do not have one deviation from that total, so i think we proved in georgia that have safe and honest elections. which is something i have been saying since 2020. and obviously, a wake-up call in 2019, the paper ballot system. verifiable paper ballot system. the electronic information center, which david becker was instrumental in getting the state to form that so we could
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get to voter rolls objectively. anything we can do with objectivity, i like. but voters also like it also. how can you argue with facts? you may not like the fact, your candidate came up short, but here is what the facts are. sec. benson: exactly that. the data and evidence and facts and what's best for each voter is what has to drive our work in this industry. i have to start out by thanking the knight foundation, it really shows how partnerships with the philanthropic community and city and states are critical to help us thrive. we've seen that in elections as well, partnerships that help us emphasize the truth. debunk misinformation, which we have become better at in the last two years, because we have had a lot of practice. at the end of the day, the
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things i'm most proud of is what often gets lost in the crowd of the battle we are in -- clearly we are in a battle over truth and misinformation. that is the era we are in and it's coming to fruition. the two things i've seen happen over these last three years gives me a great amount of hope and optimism and even think we are on a track to have a healthier, more robust democracy than ever before. there's a lot of you in this room who have been working this base for decade, as david will verify. people have stepped up. the lesson of the midterm is people believe in democracy. it became clear to them what they needed to do to defend it. voters defended democracy in 2022. we had record turnout in our midterm election, the highest turnout in midterm elections in michigan's history. we couldn't -- we communicated
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to voters that their votes would impact their democracy. we did that with facts, not hyperbole. we did it with evidence and truth. the fact that people can and have always been the ones who will save our democracy and defendant -- and defend it gives us a sense of optimism because you see people stepping up as poll workers, election officials, even amid enormous threats and harassment. the other thing that is true is what my colleague just talked about -- which is all the more work we as election officials are doing then ever before to lead with facts, to educate voters, to pre-bunk this information and be proactively transparent about our operations. that's the antidote to a lot of the misinformation we have dealt with over the last several years. what i have seen in michigan and dropped the country is officials at the local levels are doing more than they ever have in
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modern times to demystify the process, educate voters about the rights and engage them in understanding what happens when they cast their vote and how they can have faith those results are an accurate reflection of the will of the people. that is a great thing for democracy. we've become better at running elections in the last several years and because of that, we are more ready than ever to deal with whatever comes our way. part of that is because of the people in partnerships we have had and we have built in defense of democracy have only grown and become more potent and powerful. major: same question for both of you. was election did nihilism defeated in the midterms? sec. benson: in many ways, it was shown to be a losing strategy. you saw a lot of partnerships free that may have come together in 2008 come to fruition in me to out of the decision not to support election deniers. one of the things i found encouraging is we didn't see a lot of money for into supporting
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election deniers and didn't see a lot of support emerging from traditional republican areas in michigan and elsewhere. i was able to win my reelection with a broad-based coalition of support from people, independent, republican, and democrat voters who knew i was going to make sure that their vote counted. my colleague in georgia can say the same. we have demonstrated that election did nihilism will lose -- election did nihilism will -- election denialism will lose when we ensure their votes are protected. sec. raffensperger: they got defeated when i won my primary without a runoff. i -- major: tell the audience about your opponent. sec. raffensperger: he was a
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soon to be former congers men and had leaned into the election of 2020, all the myths and lies that were put out there. i went out there and used a profile in courage, when he pushed commies he said i came home to tell you the truth, that's what i did. i went out state by state, county by county, all over our state to let them know this is what happened in 2020. here's what the election integrity act does and does not do. we won without a runoff and that's the day we started beating that back and our governor had someone that ran against him also and we had that situation. we all ran and we one in the fall. but we have shown conclusively to the people of georgia is we have honest and safe elections. there is no such thing as a flawless election, but we only had seven precincts in our entire state that had to stay open past 7 p.m. on election day
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a month ago. that is phenomenal and that speaks volumes to the county elections directors and that is who we are giving a major shout out because we know what they are putting up with. they get threats, too. it's not just us. it was bubbling up from the grassroots and those local counties. it's just a tremendous time for georgia. we move forward and i think we can put that in the rearview mirror. major: one of the conversations here is the disinformation space. i would like for you to evaluate its potency and how it changed your lives and aid more difficult the conversations you've had. sec. raffensperger: if we are talking about post-election 2020, you cannot respond to it quick enough. we have a great coming occasions teams, but some people have huge accounts and they have millions of users. we got ours at about 40 or 50,000, so it was coming out constantly -- this allegation, that allegation.
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we just continue to knock them down. that's the situation you have. you are responding to people late, it's not -- we have two get the facts. we have to check out every single allegations. we can have hundreds of investigations, but we have two put out an investigator and report facts. we don't respond to people who say there is no truth to that. we have to get to the facts so we can say sir, madam, there's nothing to that. it came before the state election board. we have pushed back for the last three years and obviously, we have had success. major: information, disinformation, and how you found ways to respond? sec. benson: it goes without saying, perhaps, that i can reflect a time mid november, this time two years ago, and what it felt like. we felt very much like we were overwhelmed with darkness.
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it was so frustrating because the threats were constant against local clerks, poll workers, myself, my family, our staff. they were real, and they were potent and vitriolic. and they were coming on the heels of the highest turnout of those successful election we've had in our state. instead of celebrating that, we were battling these lies that were politically motivated to try to overturn an election that was, in many ways, one of the strongest elections we had ever had. so it was this strange paradox where we knew the work we did was good and we wanted to celebrate that and be thanking people and supporting election officials, and yet we were doing battle and it was exhausting. it was to the point where we thought once we get our county certified, we will be good. then we had to fight the state certification battle, then we had to fight against an alternate state of -- alternate
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slate of electors. demanding to be seated as the rightful electors in our state. i've heard my colleagues refer to it as whack a mole, but it was a barrage of misinformation-fueled attacks on a strong process and good people. what held us together during that time were two things. one, and i said this to my team repeatedly -- truth is on our side. i will go into battle with the truth, the law, history and the constitution and the vast majority of people on my side every day of the week. we can't forget our strength in that. we used that to the second point of taking every arrow slung at us and using it to make us stronger and better at our jobs, better at debunking misinformation, more aggressive
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knowing the allies -- knowing the lies and attacks were -- we emerged out of that era more wise and by the challenges misinformation engendered but also more emboldened as a result because we were constantly arming ourselves every day with the truth and the law and the constitution and principles we were fighting for. that is what enabled us to run forth the fires of the 2000 many midterms without blinking and emerge on the other side with larger partnerships than ever before. major: i want to call the other panel up in just a second but before i do that, i want to ask both of you a wrap up question. take as long as you need with this. you both agreed to nihilism was -- you agreed denialism was
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defeated. is it dead? sec. raffensperger: not yet. people are clinging on to something they believe to be true. eventually, they have to come to the realization that what they are clinging to is not going to get them what they want. they have to start realizing that if you are facing economic hardship, the solution is not to lean into something that's not built on something of substance. they are going to have to look and sift through that and find leadership that's principled that once you lead. major: is there an emotional part of this that you have discovered that draws on people's emotions? sec. raffensperger: yes. that's why if you read the true believer, you read about these people that come out, they get their emotional hooks and people and that happens on both sides but when people are desperate, they will start clinging to things.
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people have been hurting evening good times, now you have inflation in these other issues, people are hurting. but that's why it gets important in our role for elections that we always speak the truth to people, speak it calmly, speak irrationally. i'm not going to win the emotional battle with people anyway. i was a structural engineer, so i'm going to be to the point. i don't want to play with peoples emotions, i want to give them the facts. i respect people and i respect their will and i want to make sure they are fully informed and that's why i will talk to anyone. that's what's missing right now, particularly in washington dc -- a small courage to tell people the truth. you can give people the truth in grace. just speak to them and give them the facts and lay them out. sometimes it's better to speak gently because a gentle answer
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turns away wrath. speak gently, but speak the truth and speak it forcefully, but make your point and here's what the facts are. i have shown i can do that and i think that's important to all of us when you hold statewide office, that you care yourselves and understand the high calling of a position like secretary of state or anything that is statewide. it is peoples priceless franchise to vote. being from the state of georgia, i get that. sec. benson: i think we can certainly recognize that we are 2-0 in terms of the pro-democracy movement and we are only getting stronger. in terms of partnerships that enable us to protect and defend democracy, it is not the time to rest on our laurels because what i referred to in my office as
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the super bowl is right around the corner, meaning the 2000 24 presidential election. i believe since january 7, 2021, every lever that was pulled come every strategy that was deployed, every strategy used in 2020 is potentially going to be used again but in a way that is potentially more vitriolic, more sophisticated, better funded, and backed with more people than were a part of it in 2020. we have to be prepared for that -- major: even with the interviewing setback of 2022? sec. benson: i often refer to 2022 as the draft. it's when voters are choosing whose defending their voice and their vote and you see a variance of decisions stop we saw some of the greatest challenges defeated in nevada, arizona, and in michigan and in
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secretary raffensperger's race in georgia. but at the same time, we saw defeats in states and federal offices as well. we have to brace ourselves for people who have also succeeded by spreading misinformation about our elections and who will be elected officials and how they will use that power in 2024. there are more pressure points as well. but i was starting out by saying we are 2-0. we have become stronger and more sophisticated and we have built more partnerships as a result of what we have had to endure. the battle is not over. the challenges facing democracy are not over. i hope is that when we get to 2025, we can reflect on an air of misinformation move forward. i don't know that, but that is my hope. the reality is the battle over
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democracy in our country has been fought since its inception. it is our job as citizens to always be prepared to defend it. we are the high water mark for having to defend it against specific challenges, but that work will never cease. if i could quickly say, some of you know i started my career in montgomery, alabama. i did this work because over 50 years ago, people stood on the independence bridge in selma and stood guard over the votes of people in that city despite billy clubs and tear gas and were beaten for it. that is our work, to always find the bridge wherever it may be and whatever era we may be in and fight that fight. that is what this is right now and it may change and evolve, but it is not going to end in any of our lifetimes, nowhere should it because democracy is a living, breathing thing we all fight for every year.
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major: it's not my place to tell you how aggressively to applaud, but if you are motivated to do so for people who are absent -- who are leaders who stood in the breach, who encountered things they never imagined they would have to encounter, i invite you to give a round of applause to these two. [applause] >> the u.s. house returns at 2 p.m. eastern to deba 18 bills today. incling several veterans related measures. on the agenda over the next couple weeks funding the federal government past december 16 and legislation requested by president biden to avert a railroad strike. as always, live coverage of the house here on c-span. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more. including mediacom.
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>> the world changed in an instant. mediacom was ready. internet traffic soared and we never slowed down. schools and businesses went virtual and we powered a new reality. at media com, we are built to keep you ahead. >> mediacom supports c-span as a public service. along with thesether television providers. tkweufg you front row seat to democracy -- giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> executives from albertsons and kroeger testify today on the possible $25 billion merger between the two grocery store companies. watch the senate judiciary stkhaoet hearing live at 3 p.m. eastern on c-span3. you can also watch on our free mobile video app. c-span now. or online at >> sunday, on in-depth.
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chief "new york in-depth. chief "new york times" white house correspondent peter baker and new yorker staff writer susan, will be our guest to talk about russia. husband and wife team have written three books together. kremlin rising. the man who ran washington. former secretary of state james baker. and the divider. trump in the white house. 2017-2021. join in the conversation with your phone calls. texts, and tweets. in-depth, with peter bake


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