once again to the great democracies. >> american democracy is bigger than any one person. >> freedom and democracy must be constantly guarded and protected. >> we are still at our core a democracy. >> this is also a massive victory for democracy and for freedom. ♪ >> joining us is kevin walls. morning is kevin walsh, with the government accountability office, their information technology and cyber security director, here to talk about air traffic control system. kevin walsh, i want to begin with sean duffy, transportation secretary, yesterday, announcing a new system. i want to show it to our viewers and have you respond. here is the transportation secretary. [video clip] >> we are going to rebuild some towers, we build some centers, not all of them, but we are going to rebuild a few of them

that need to be rebuilt. some bricks and mortar to the plan. however, everything else is really easy. everything else that controls the airspace is going to be brand-new. we are going to have new telecom, new fiber throughout the system. we are going to have brand-new radios in our towers to communicate between air traffic controllers and with airplanes. we are going to have a ground radar sensor -- new radar for the ground, new sensors on our tarmac's and airports. so our air traffic controllers in the tower are looking out with binoculars see airplanes. if it is cloudy or rainy or the weather is bad, it becomes very challenging. we want to have all the tools so they can see where aircraft are at the airport on their screens, terminals. host: sean duffy, transportation secretary there.

kevin walsh, your reaction to what you heard there about this new system? guest: first and foremost, the nation needs our air traffic control systems are very old. aging systems are introducing more and more risk. when we looked at this in a report released in september, we used the faa's own data and they found there were 138 air traffic control systems -- total -- but there was also some 40 odd in dod or other agencies. faa control of the critical ones, the 138 the identified. we looked at them, and three quarters of them were having some degrees are a with sustainability. that means they couldn't get enough parts or funding to modernize. i hear secretary duffy and i'm encouraged, glad this is getting the attention we need.

but i also want to sound a note of caution. this is something the government and our nation has been working on since the 1980's. the faa attempted to modernize the airspace in the 1980's and 1990's, initially projected to cost $10 billion. and wound up believing in cost to $36 billion. then congress stepped in and said, whoa, we want to stop the growth. in two thousand three, they initiated a new office at the faa. that office was tasked with the decks jen program. next the jen program initiated in 2004 with the goal of finishing the national airspace by 2025. clearly that did not happen. prior to secretary duffy, the latest estimates were that it was going to be 2030 before it was finished and they were spending about a billion dollars a year on this modernization.

so i'm encouraged but the note of caution is, this is not easy. this is not going to be quick. at least if we are using the methods that we have in the past. now, secretary duffy and the administration are bringing new people, new mindsets, new approaches, which is great. but this is our air traffic control system. the silicon valley adage of go fast and break things is not how i would want the national airspace to be modernized. again, i am rooting for them, i desperately want them to succeed, but i also want them to be thorough, thoughtful as they go about this. i am glad this is getting the attention that the nation needs. host: you come across as very serious about this. is it because of the numbers that you found? you referenced them.

138 systems total. if the one of those systems unsustainable. 54 deemed potentially unsustainable. was it shocking to you? guest: it wasn't shocking just because we've been following the issue for so long. but to see it in writing, in the faa's own determination -- because this is not the kind of analysis that external parties such as yourself could come in and meaningfully do. we don't have the resources to evaluate 138 different systems and make determinations on how sustainable they are, how critical they are to the national airspace, but faa did all of that. that is a credit to them. they also have been doing it, not just a one-off exercise. we looked at their 20 23 results. they did it again in 2024 and in the process of doing it right now. that is our understanding. i'm glad this wasn't a one-off thing, glad they are keeping

their eyes on it. that should help them focus their modernization efforts on the most critical ones. one of the things included in their report that we examined was the operational impact of some of these systems. of the 138 we were talking about, you can break that down into which ones have issues or no issues. 105 with issues. a lot of numbers here, so bear with me. of that 105, the ones that had some sort of spare parts or staffing issues or funding, 58 of them were deemed to have a critical operational impact on the national airspace. so this is serious. faa is aware of the problem. but we have been kicking this can down the road for a long time. at this point, if we are going to continue the kicking the can metaphor, perhaps the can has very little aluminum left, maybe metaphorical duct tape and

staples. again, i'm glad the transportation is focusing. host: you said it is not easy, why? what have they been doing that has not been working for decades? guest: some of the problems they have experienced, lack of oversight, cost growth, unexpected requirements. since these systems have been growing and being fixed, repaired and maintained, in some cases, north of 60 years. 60 years ago, jfk was president. these air traffic control buildings are not spring chickens. as they have maintained, they have been evolving, and become their own unique problems. we saw that, sadly, in newark, where some of the localized issues there resulted in an outage which thankfully was not tragic. but those are some of the issues that we are seeing besides the difficulty of finding spare parts.

host: interesting because the transportation secretary, when he started out to announce the new system, was showing those scattered there, the cameras with the current system look like. he joked saying i didn't pull this from the smithsonian. this is not relics, this is what the kirkley use test currently use. how does a look for those who didn't see that yesterday? guest: during a hearing a few months back, representative massey was able to put up a screenshot showing what the system looks like. picture an old green screen computer with a few rudimentary lines and charts. this is not a hypermodern system. problematically, when faa is modernizing these systems, it takes them about four to five years to come up with a baseline. four to five years to come up with an idea of what the cost

and schedule and will look like. after they establish that baseline, it takes them another 12 years, in some cases, 16 to 19 years for some of the ones that we looked at, to finish the product. altogether, we are looking at 20 years to modernize something. at that point, it is not modern anymore. host: do you fly? guest: i do. host: given what you know, why do you fly? guest: despite these issues, the faa handles 50,000 flights every day. i think it is a testament to the employees, the air traffic controllers, to the pilots, everyone who is doing their best to make up for the lack of the systems. and it is to then that i would attribute the safety of the national airspace. host: what happened in newark, losing frequency, connection? from reporting, it sounds like that happens all places than newark.

what is going on, and what happens in those moments where the pilot is not hearing from the air traffic controller? guest: i have heard some of the recordings from the pilot. to their credit, the ability to stay calm and unflappable is incredible. what is going on in their mind, i'm sure is -- well, we did see some air traffic controllers take trauma leave after the events. in terms of what specifically happened at newark, we have not done reporting or investigating. the public reports i've seen indicate there was some sort of copper telecommunications cable that frayed. the faa, again, is not unaware of these issues. they have their fens that is intended to address issues like this. i believe according to secretary duffy's announcement yesterday, that is one thing that will be

accelerated, introducing better telecommunications infrastructure, not just at newark, but across the nation. again, this is needed and i'm glad they are focusing correctly. host: what did you say about senator ted cruz who was at the event yesterday, and why was it significant that he was there? guest: i had an exchange with senator cruz after we released the report, and he asked me what it was going to take to fix the air traffic control system. i stand by what i said back then. this will take billions of dollars, many years, and many, many people to fix. host: how many billions? transportation secretary duffy says $15 billion is what senator cruz is pledging to get through congress. guest: that is a unknowable question. every time the government comes up with an estimate over the

years -- first it was $10 billion, then it grew to 36 billion dollars. congress pump the brakes. initially when they came out with nextgen, another $15 billion, that kept on growing as well. we are spending a billion dollars every year, which sounds crazy. sounds like pocket change that you throw around. but i don't want to give the impression that those billions were not helping or were wasted. those billions is >> people take you live to a series of discussions. you are watching live coverage on c-span. >> executive director of the institute. before we begin i want to draw your attention to the screen. there are a couple of qr codes on the screen on the next slide. right on top on the top