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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Khemaies Jhinaoui  Deutsche Welle  February 26, 2018 12:30am-1:01am CET

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finally they gave bob an invention by me on bicycles but returned with the sewing machine sewing i suppose was more appropriate for girls than writing advice as no i want to meet those woman back home for bones by then to continue in social rooms and informed of old dead basic rights my name is the about of the who and i work at it's easy to be a. loser. after seven years two newsier remains the one arab country to emerge from the so-called arab spring as a functioning democracy or does it my guest here at the munich security conference is chemists to now eat the country's foreign minister has the shine finally come off the revolution and with it the hope of a better future. commission
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only welcome to conflict thank you very much for having me you told a newspaper in india last november the two zero is now as secure as any country in the world it's not true. when i think compared to two thousand and fifteen sixteenth's i can repeat the same statement today as secure as any country in the world there are five areas listed as no go areas by the state department u.s. state department no but i mean when i said this because i compared with two thousand fifteen when we had the first terrorist attack attack and then on the night two thousand sixteen today i think that our forces are better trained well equipped but not as secure as any country in the world our allies most of the country's elite yes when you read what the state department has to say give you an
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example western mountains in chamblee national park terrorist groups continue to operate in the mountains of western tunisia job or cave kasserine the algerian border terrorist groups continue to operate in these areas city busied in central tunisia terrorist groups continue to operate in this area that doesn't sound very stable exaggerated frankly these are the first days apart when there's no longer talking about let me tell you these are the fringes i mean on the border of tunisia these are you have talking about mountains and these mountains of course we never said that talk about the territory in tunis. yeah but these are. these are very small groups they are very well tackled by our forces we know them where they are moving and we are following that but i put it to you that your advice is dangerously misleading no limits not people believe the state department with the biggest most sophisticated intelligence service in the world or the ministry of a country who wants to revive its tourist and military to wage this statement is
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not saying that we need is not secure and i just saying this is not to go again not go there yeah but do not go in europe also have places where you have not to go with what will work very very close up not terrorist threats well all over the world yes but they are not no go areas because listen i think there is no territory in tunisia held by terrorists there is no but i know that they said no terrorist groups continue to operate in this area three three four five areas yes but he said that they are not holding territories they are a few groups they are acting we are following them but they have been this threat we are aware of it but they are not targeting we are not thin like other middle eastern countries where the terrorists were able to hold the territories tunisia is completely and their control of the state mrs you know your own interior minister gave a vivid picture of the hugely extensive terrorist operating in your country he said
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in twenty seventeen a broken up forty network sending terrorists to conflict zones six terror networks more than one hundred twenty terrorist recruiting cells how many hundreds of others are there that you don't know about you haven't got this is a huge extensive network of terrorists operating in new york yes but these are from the interior of these chains these these shows first of all that our forces now they know about the sense they were working to give us these cells they don't know about the next one yeah but they know that but but let's be very happy that to tell you the last two years tunisia was immune of any terrorist threat this is the bit of our security forces. you have several thousand units who went off to fight with isis and reputed to be the largest per capita number from any country some of them have been filtering back home we don't know how good your border controls are
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in twenty fifteen report by transparency international said your security and customs officials suffered from a lack of transparency and scrutiny so we don't know how good your border controls are these people coming back in first you can't be complacent and affect us we can first of all speaking about several thousands i think here you are exaggerating these are reports by the media these are reports they said several several thousand dollars i didn't say seven i said several several thousands nobody is able to count them to say that there really is these are people working i mean fighting in the hotspots nobody and they are coming and they have suffered and you have no property radicalization program in your country no property radicalization program according to the tunisian form for economic and social rights there's not a program there is no problem of what sort of radicalization of course there is of course there is there is a comprehensive policy regarding trying to direct radicalize or these young
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people it's a there isn't that they are they say whatever they like but then telling you on behalf of the government that there is a national comprehensive program tackling with the working with women with the in education in social affairs and its involvement or the department of them maybe but a lot of these people have come back are sitting under house arrest but even if you have a political issue with them of course of a summit and that's not the radicalisation not even is a can in any in any democratic country were which is the respecting the rule of law these people when they come back of course they are held and then awaited where the police and if found guilty big. go to the court and of course they will be prosecuted because the let's talk about your claim to be respecting law because your government's commitment to human rights and democracy has also been contested
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the international crisis group warned last month or two newsier was drifting back towards its old or thora tarion reflexes something i'm sure you will deny but freedom house reported that your failure to consolidate democracy meant a sharp decline in this year's freedom index reflecting a patent of authoritarian behavior under president subsea but freedom house rated treaties are the first. and the meta reason freedom house to easy is the most free country and that it's not living up to the hopes says with the latest downgrade they've downgraded it is number one now they downgrade you to clearly and that is about one but they have downgraded our lead to bear latest downgrade tunisia has come dangerously close to losing its status as the only free greely to merge from the arab states these kind of response this is not reported by everybody . frankly speaking i don't know which most of most of the human rights organizations western you're right organization they do not have
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a good picture and i want to go into some of these they do not have a good picture of your progress towards a democratic so let me tell you what we are doing in the program we'll explain to you that we are but i just want to make the point that it didn't inspire confidence last september that three of the new faces in the government had served as ministers during the dictatorship of ben ali and if they are able and capable to do or to handle their departments i mean that does not mean they have not got prosecuted by the by the justice they were never said that these people you know the committed any crime that one of the old system what signatures that were said and what depends what the purpose of the revolution for if you look bring back all these old faces yes all traitors but the these people be they didn't serve in the dictator here. they were not. implicated you know involved in any of the communities and there is no reason not to or frankly speaking in a democratic system there is no reason to recruit able people to run
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the country when there aren't that the country is going through thought different so we are missing as a test of our generally did you really imagine tunisia and staged a revolution in order to see these old and discredited faces brought back according to the carnegie endowment bensalem. hatem ben salem was widely seen as an apologist of the old regime for denying its human rights violations also controversially or finance minister really the child whom who was named in the carnegie endowment posting as being close to the ben ali family and these really the people you want that will frankly i don't doubt about that i've got a better engine is definitely not there are many people but these people going to think about what signal they were sending there is no signal we didn't choose them because they belong to the old regime i mean the chief of the government the prime minister chose them because he thought that these people are the right people for the this time to run the department of education and the finest it is not you want
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to collect you want to correct the evils of the past and you bring back the people who is sociate it will help the eagles a little but that these people they were not involved in security they. could have thirty people or they were not involved in touch or these people are a civil servant the ministers they were minister they have. these two people they were running technical departments they were not related to politics. months tunisia saw widespread social protests in january there was widespread concern among western human rights groups the way your government handled them even the un's high commission in the house right how our government handled this that i yes the un's high commission. for human rights years particularly exercised by the many hundreds of people you arrested and felt the need to remind you that all those detained should have full respect for their rights those concerns were justified wouldn't let me first tell you of the protest
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in their democracy it's a healthy sign. our founders larry about the way let any complaining about here wages handle yes throwaways a house fire to protest let me tell you really and that actually in that our forces had these protest with a lot of professionalism there was no single casualties these that are were running tours that are loose but no single country things if in any democracy in the world it can happen some some accident but here sitting over there at these wild accidents on january the thirty first human rights watch accused your police of beating up some of the people detained and denying their right to a lawyer under two new zealand law that's a direct violation of your own laws. i'm not aware of this practice because i don't know from where you're reading this to new zealand legal human right yes visited twenty three suspects yes in the morning or gear prison on january the seventeenth
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they reported that most of them had marks consistent with beatings on their bodies persistent allegations of mistreatment mistreatment of police see a deliberate policy introducer today i can tell you know if there are so your memories are out of control i know but if there are answers didn't i can't i can't say what had presented the didn't happen but this is not what they can affirm to today but this is not a deliberate state police to get back the military is not it's pretty callous then if it isn't a state policy because it's going on there is no witnesses were interviewed and victims were interviewed as well according to human rights watch some people were arrested simply for distributing leaflets that the government didn't like calling for soldiers there there is the presidential commitment of a free speech yes there are six had that people on seven hundred are unemployed and
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one thousand seven hundred more than seven hundred these people most all of them they have been freed those who were involved in looting vandalism they went to the court and they have been persecuted according to the law tunisia today is a country which respects the role of the rule of law to call them all criminals and looters it's the same kind of no matter the old regime in the you see you got all of them now frankly speaking of the i didn't say that all of them there who some of these people are expressing real social dispatcher have well mr and they are in the right wing club because now like governments in the last seven years of failed to meet their expectations of the nine governance system. let me tell you with this we are living in the transition and in any transition period of course you. have stability of the government this is this that the question is is there no is the transition going forwards or backwards it's going and a lot of these radical not just that they're going to announce that there is a national consensus not just the government including the opposition the demarc
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that is a national who will consolidate the transition of the democratic transition in tunisia and there is no going back there is no return link and there is no there is a strong will to continue on the path of consolidating the democratic process we're proud of that during last year's universal periodic review of the union human rights council your country came under sustained criticism for aspects of its behavior the international as well as many other groups waste concern about impunity for torture and pointed out there had actually been few if any successful prosecutions of your officials for torture that's a disgraceful record not of mention first of all let me these cases they are in the court and if they are in the court today in tunisia we will keep to have an independent justice so it's up to the justice courts to decide about the supreme
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not in the special rapporteur on the promotion of truth justice and reparations said last year many alleged perpetrators of gross human rights violations remain active in your security services how can that be. so special rapporteur on the promotion of truth justice and rapid resurrection is he truly is you see he's a un special rapporteur so he reported at your universal periodic review session here last year at the un human rights council saying that the we continued saying that many alleged perpetrators are still employed and active in your security services so you don't even suspend them when they are the suspicion and well i think most of them they been have. suspended they don't say that one have percent now there is no people suspected to be be involved in these kind of practices but the most of them one of the penalties for torture in your country it's all bogus
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it's not such is forbidden by law an example of that is not is in two cases in july twenty fifteen where officials were found guilty they received a suspended sentence but that's not bad not a deterrent yes but that's not the government meeting torture yes but that's not a government of presiding over a country that doesn't deal with basic justice here but this is the mother of justice is not the mother who you are talking to executive minister alexander you proud of this and i'm not of course i'm not so what's going to govern about is happening if we are i am sure my people and our people let their look into to these shortcomings and they are trying their best to others that that ministry international put it since two thousand and eleven the overwhelming majority of credible allegations of torture and other serious violations by security forces have not been independently and impartially investigated is that the sort of country that you want to preside there's another bit of the work i think that is
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not about making this stuff up mark most people have lost most most of the tunisian people most of the political families in tunisia this is not the case the kind of country they want they want to full fledged democratic country we are proud of the she went we have already made we are not yet a democracy to be honest we are not yet a democracy we never pretended that we are for we finished actively out from the size we are for masses we are on the path of reaching a democratic system where transparency the rule of law will be respected decision we have not yet made promises you told the human rights council your government last year in response to their many criticisms that you would ensure all allegations of torture. impartially investigated when well let me when you heard. that commitment of the government if my my people you know said to the in geneva this that shows that of course they are doing that but when how frankly you
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ask me question did a good question which if you knew that you were going to ask me this i would have brought you the details for you but i always human rights minister met a bangle been told amnesty international last year it was taking time he said taking time to overcome the ben ali legacy my question to you why is it taking time if you tell your police not to torture people anymore why is it taking time for them to a baby or a well first of all we have to educate our police we have to train them so their way out of it we don't always have people you know yes but you know torture p.d.'s yes but not so difficult to mother so it is not a matter of torture it's a matter of working and serving a democratic system this is for them out of their out of control you're saying you can't control i mean i don't see that they are out of control but i mean this is not the mainstream of the reason police what you have depicted here is a wrong picture the mainstream is trying to respect the rule of law to respect the
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democratic system but maybe in these there are some cases and never pretended that this is over it's going to take time but there is a political will strong will to work towards having a full fledged democracy where the respect of human rights and the rule of law will be the rule of the government mr general what makes your promise so difficult to believe is that you are pressing ahead with a new law that would actually extend the impunity of your security services this is the repression of attacks against armed forces bill this bill that is in committee stage at the moment. human rights groups say if your promises to the human rights committee. genuine you'd scrap this extension pill if you love the security services to get away with millions not yet violations this bill is not yet adopted it is under discussion it has been controversial that means that the government and
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those who present that be listening to the people and them sure they will be reform and get according to the will of the people. you know sure when i said so why are you sure you did there are two very controversial aspects of this law in your interior minister said the other week this law was going to go through it wouldn't be withdrawn they're not going to withdraw it criminalizing so-called denigration of police and other security services and. the law about secrets the proposal that anyone who discloses publishes national security related secrets can spend ten years in jail and well well the idea is that it's now and the discussion and the editor for amendment to that law there will be taken care of and they will be. met accordingly there's a huge protest that's caused huge protests from civil society in the tunisian
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pressure from the police do you think that you understand now today tunisia is a free country so there are pressure from the police the those police forces who would like to get more like to get away with any violation they want to practice that's the truth isn't it this law if it goes through as it is written of them i would allow that it will not get as it is as i said it's at the discussion and i'm sure all these observations will be taken care of when the law would be able to be already under attack if it is and that discussion by the parliament and that are in the parliament then political parties so it's not the government which is around it this is your ballot you're already under attack for the law that you have passed which is the so-called administrative reconciliation law let's be clear it grant amnesty to civil servants who facilitated corruption under the bally regime without putting them through any legal process what so i let me explain to you this is
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getting away with everything doesn't it none of this is not getting we've passed this here this isn't really gone through let me explain to you this low because you are getting a wrong ever measurable. this is a law regarding those judge and civil servant who are working under the benign you who got the instruction the political instruction to you know so that the israelis the responsibility because they were ordered to do something bad what are you saying that they had no personal responsibility knowing the difference no right and wrong not whether they were instrument or not see what happens now and the administration which is a quite an important tool for guaranteeing you know the success of the transition in the administration today nobody is able and ready to sign anything. he wants to get you know protection the law directly contradicts what the prime minister said when he came to power in twenty sixteen he said our slogan today is
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no immunity for corruption to anyone but no to hiding behind political cover which is what they do and corruption crimes will not pass and then you pass this law being which allows that legacy of these people they didn't get money in that book they didn't come after anybody they just you know they were in the lower iraqi they just implemented decision so this law has been utterly rejected by the international center for transitional justice as well as your own national council of the bar association so popular is it this or sort of the appeal that virtually all the that is a debate going on in tunisia if you like the laws being passed here but the no i mean we thought that this is a way to help the administration running the daily business of the government so there's a way to help people escape their responsibility to know that that's not for their part in the dictatorship if they have committed any crime this law does not protect
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them them from being prosecuted for any crime or corruption because this is just related to the civil civil part of the job you have to read the law it has nothing to do i mean if you have bill bar association with the law and they came up with a completely different career because well these these are so who's looking after justice them or you know that they are there but and the justice is not us we're looking after the executive branch and we have not the world to be justice you keep passing these laws which are so unpopular you want the the west and the i.m.f. to continue funding these anti democratic processes he spent on to democratic presidents because he is not going to this is according to your lawyers a.s.l.'s according to the international court official just some of our lawyers not all of them some of their they contest the road they are in the right accountancy but that doesn't mean that the other night we haven't a democracy. people waiting for milestones they're waiting for the much delayed
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constitutional court yes which was probably they're waiting for municipal elections i've actually have delayed and delayed we see a prime minister who promises that this will be the last difficult year for the people of tunis he has he's in no position to make a promise like why not when you don't know that well let me first regarding the cause of the constitutional court it will be there before the end of two thousand and eighteen that there was a. prime minister pledges a promise these entities and it's now there is a proposal in front of the parliament it's four years late today and that's the way it is late yet but this is where this is before the end of the one date of the government of this government deal of the municipal election would be taking place all the six of me and just the prime minister said that that date will be respected and the election will will take it will take place that's a promise is a it is not problem it's a commitment all right it's just always been good to have you on the program thank
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you thanks very much for joining us thank you.
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thirty minutes. observe. the scars on the move the pain still touchable. the front for good. for city. the for they have survived but do they also have a future. i really understand people who say they do want to stay here. but i also admire people who want to stay here and who decided to create something . new in peace time and more the people making it possible what needs to happen if tolerance and reconciliation are to stand a chance. out of darkness cities after
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a war. starting march tenth on d w. so instead of using pesticides which kills all the animals all the instruction the field one can use pheromones to control and sex you know for a natural way pheromones or couple holes that end sex used to communicate with each other the males fly around until they smell less and they find a female and they make it and then the female lays eggs on the fruit and causes all the problems so what the farmer can do is to use their own loans to spread all over the field you can produce hundreds of trails all of the poor old sort of middle can find people there's insects because globally they all operate by using pheromones and so if we can we can develop it cheap enough and broadly enough that it gets to
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will be used by the foreign. news life from. her new cabinet the german chancellor surrounds herself with fresh faces including a cabinet job for one of her harshest critics also coming up. no letup in the bloodshed in syria despite a unanimous un felt for a cease fire the bombs keep raining down on the people of eastern time.
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and desperation in the democratic republic of congo with militia violence on the rise and people.


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