pursuing her own ambitions. certainly has no other woman got some close to. life and death with the furious. star twenty first on. it's two years since the e.u. referendum in britain and the ruling conservative party has spent the time fighting and arguing but mainly with itself my guest this week here in london is nikki morgan a former education minister and now a pro remain conservative m.p. why does she continue to prop up a prime minister who has failed so spectacularly to unite the party and the country .

thinking more than welcome to conflict zone thank you it's two years since the back seat referendum two years in which the government has failed to come up with an agreed position in the cabinet and what kind of bracks that they want to show themselves and well i think want to be seen is that bracks is undoubtedly extremely complex certainly but bench members of parliament like me would like to see more clarity on the future trading relationship between the u.k. and the e.u. progress has been made on some things to be fair to both sides but clearly there's a lot left to negotiate and agree in the remaining months ahead i mean they've been negotiating and fighting with themselves they have been talking to brussels much and that's that's the shambolic aspect of it is so just that it's difficult it's just that they can't agree on what they want which is pretty shameful isn't it this is the future of this country in the future of this country's economy hinges on what kind of bracks the u.k. gets what they think they're more responsible attitude from the prime minister and the government wouldn't you well i think as you just said this is incredibly

important these negotiations for the future of the united kingdom and particularly of the for the shape of our economy ok there have been things have been agreed with the e.u. relation to the draw agreement on the amount we paid on citizens but the important matter is that well look i go on sequencing of the thoughts that i've got along i'm not here to. i'm not here to defend the government because i'm a backbench member of parliament and chair of the house of commons major select committee also i'm here to ask the questions well. absolutely i mean i think that do i think the conservative party is the right party to be in government absolutely of course i do all the questions about future relationship yes of course there are other things i'd like to be seeing done differently absolutely and that's what m.p.'s are there to do is to scrutinise the work of the government to hold the government to account to stand up for our constituents do though because i'm in is left to businesses and as we've seen in the last few days the five talk business

lobby groups have come up now and said large companies are queuing up to shift work or investment out of the u.k. and this is huge implications for british jobs. why didn't you back them up well we have in terms of the last few months there have been discussions in parliament on customs arrangements i had a debate with a colleague from another select committee of that cooper who's the chair of the home affairs select committee back in april and there have obviously been concerns about companies in the company to raise a loss. in parts and absolutely dismayed them you so it's just a difficult subject absolutely dismayed that this is being mishandled on daily basis now in the us and the reaction from the government from the government minister is to shut up back the prime minister very quiet absolutely i think. i was extremely concerned to hear the reaction from two senior government ministers about

the way in which they said that businesses should not be raising their concerns absolutely needs to hear from business and one of the issues over the last couple of years has been that actually it's been the business lobby groups way to the concerns not businesses themselves and actually there's no substitute for hearing from the voice of business directly the decisions that they're having to make on the shop floor that going to affect. the future financial security of workers was so important to the ministers in your party think this is a minute state where you can hush up critical voices where a public servant like a minister tells business what it can say when it counts or had some personalized back in east germany listen to this what i think. your party is this country and you know i look i think i think i do think those ministers worse speaking for the majority of the conservative party the conservative party is a pro enterprise pro business party the party didn't associate itself from what they said they did what i'm on the prime minister didn't do so souter said i'm not

a minister so i'm not a minister you're not i was but i'm not i'm not here as i say i'm making it very clear what i think of those comments which i think are inexcusable because actually it is businesses that employ hundreds of thousands of people across this country who export and import goods and who we should be very mindful of the impact of the final negotiations on what's going to happen how this country is going to continue to work for them and more importantly for their employees who rely on those businesses large and small for their financial livelihood we saw the foreign secretary morris johnson who is reported to have told us that when he was asked about business concerns i can use the word just so if business for you problem is johnson. i think that mr johnson if he said that of course it's anecdotal remark is remotely uncalled for by the foreign secretary who has himself talked about want

to get a global britain who has asked britain's amber season concerts around the world to be a short window for the britain is great campaign i think if he said that this is appropriate way for a minister who's holding one of the great offices of state why just i'm just i just made it very clear that i think his remarks are deeply disappointing comes at the end of a long list of remarks have been deeply disappointed that i'm sure the prime minister don't stream me mindful of that not my it was enough to send tally well to be sacked look who the prime minister has in her cap and it is a high spirit from personal experience very much a matter of urgency and so go to museums a living yes well shouldn't you have an opinion on this you know i'm not going to your family for throwing through. what exactly exactly so i don't see why you tiptoeing around this particular issue because at the end of the day the issue is not about personalities it's. were competent job has not been very clear before

that actually this breaks it debate it's far more important than talking about one minister or one personality you know we shouldn't be endlessly debating this minister or that most of this these negotiations are incredibly important both for the future of the united kingdom but also i would argue for businesses and others within the e.u. and we've got to get that right in the midst. of this continually on a daily basis and she either doesn't have the ability the strength or the guts to do anything about that is a matter the prime minister is running the cabinet and she's running the government a chance or running the country and as a member of parliament my role there is to represent my constituents and to scrutinise the work of the government to point out where i think things are going wrong i'm not going to get in this is going to maintain well i read something deeply pathetic isn't there about a prime minister who can't control her own ministers well that's a matter of you have to raise with the prime minister directly for me i'm going to court you and your debts are not in those i don't you scrutinize the people who are

in the government. i'm not going to get into debating endlessly certain personalities who love the fact they're being talked about this is more important for my constituents their financial livelihood and job security will depend on getting the right deal not only because you will notice important most evil of those persons is the holding the country to ransom as they clearly are why i'm not sure how the breaks across and i'm not what i'm leaning in the wrong way you so well as a threat to democracy but you won't talk about them. well you have clear you have your clear red line there wasn't you about this interview so far with an awful lot of time talking about one particular personality not talking about the issues. well that is because we talk about the issues at stake in the backseat negotiations what is the future of the trading relationship how is london as a global financial center going to be regulated after it goes in which drives obviously have to use has been the answer to i mean isn't the problem the un the

government seem to believe there's a kind of so the mythical third way available somewhere between the hardline reps deers and the die hard remain there's a third way where britain gets to keep some of the good things that have from the e.u. membership doesn't have to silly things like rules what i think is a big o'shea ssion and that both sides actually are in the process of negotiating what that future relationship is going to like i'd like to see more progress i'd like to see more detail i'd like to know what that means for my constituents and as chair of the treasury select committee on particular concerns obviously to know what that means for financial services companies too so those are the questions that need to be debated and they will be i think in the coming weeks we've got the june summit the cabinet have an away day we're waiting for a white paper how many are way to it is going to go well i. think with them well there was an illusion there was some movement in the way they held earlier on this year but as i say these are incredibly complex negotiations and parliament m.p.'s

will have a say on these right way through about to start debating next month the customs and trade bills both of which we very important as a say for the financial security of of millions of people in this country you said in april the premise the stated objective was to have fiction this trade and then peace should be able to tease out the best way to achieve this in a calm and rational way the problem with that is that frictionless trade has already been toned down by the if the u.k. continues to insist on leaving the single market in the gaza. you know i'm not accepting free movement so it's a nonstarter isn't it this friction is. well i think it's not so hard to understand it's going to be difficult to achieve undoubtedly with all the other parts exactly as you said relating obviously to free movement and the desire for something for my party to want to negotiate our own trade deals but the point is actually and i think i said in that debate as well that the debate was a it was a debate of the government's own making because these issues haven't been debated because there wasn't

a clear and agreed cabinet position i think actually is an awful lot of discussion to be had about the details of customs and potentially single market access. membership for people to understand i think what the e.u. is looking for is a clear ask from the u.k. government and i'm going to be expected that they would have it well that we hope will be covered in the white paper the government is due to publish in a couple of weeks but why not listen to them when they say that you cannot have sector by sector deals without accepting the guns of e.u. conditions the yukos turned i mean if you listen to ivan rodgers who was britain's former ambassador to the you he'd been told repeatedly over many years that that is not on offer mrs merkel and others will not agree to scepter all deals in the over the single market or the customs union so it's a nonstarter keeps on being pushed or something because expectations that some people keep on the she get along i think that actually that is a very valid point which is actually understanding what you where where the

negotiations have got to and that's what we're waiting for in parliament is an update now we have been told at the weekend in response to the announcements by air bus and others that negotiations are going well well you know i hope the pardon will have options to be updated on those negotiations very soon probably offer some of the prime minister will come to parliament and make a statement next monday afternoon in contrast to the lack of decision making from the british cabinet brussels has been crystal clear hasn't it the last december michel barnier. sat down with the full authority of the twenty seven other countries mrs maker and even get a cabinet to agree but he's got twenty seven countries and he said british red lines are leaving the european court of justice and ruling a free movement meant that the only option left available was a free trade agreement similar to the one on the got in twenty sixty one try taking him at his word that's it that's all they're offering sadly i'm not in charge of

the negotiations on the u.k.'s side and of course what people say publicly as i know when i was either you budget minister and what they say privately in brussels can be two different things are not part of the private negotiations but what you have done you've advanced the so-called mutual recognition model that would maintain cross border trade in financial services in january you suggested throwing down the gauntlet to the negotiators so we could say to them that we don't buy their arguments about financial services not being in the free trade agreement the canadian agreement has some provisions on services the only problem with that is that you rejected that idea out of her a month before you said it couldn't have been clearer could you there's no place for financial services he said there's not a single trade agreement that is open to financial services doesn't exist and yet in march in the communique from the e.u. council there is a little paragraph that opens the way to financial services been part of a free trade agreement you've got twenty seven countries who have to he speaks on

the whole thing yes and that's why it's very easy so i don't know march the march communique from the summit and that's something that i know that financial services companies both in london and the u.k. but also their european counterparts have been discussing it's something that we in the treasury select committee have quizzed both the bank of england and the financial conduct or forty about and i think this model certainly is worth exploring further obvious at the moment financial services regulations in the to the u.k. and the transaction is obviously absolutely. aligned and so i think it's definitely worth asking the question or what if anything and of course there's also this issue about global regulatory standards as well so many of the companies both in london and on the e.u. continent will not be following just our own regulations and you characters they'll be following global regulations well there's a lot of work to be done there so the first i'm assuming you want britain to create a new customs union or partnership or range went with the you because turkey

managed to get one but turkey frequently has ten mile long queues at its borders with bug area and rather than being a magic wand having this. customs agreement it doesn't get rid of export declarations invoices insurance certificate transport permits for each e.u. country that they have to pass through there's nothing great about having a customs union with the is there what the point actually is how do you change customs customs or arrangement or partnership or whatever it was because which something that was anticipated in our party manifesto last year but also the other point is that along with government went to rome yes that's right and as we know we saw the election result which obviously has made things far more complicated for the government and it's a self-inflicted wound well there's no point of it i mean we are we are there's no point in revisiting history there's no dance in the country for a further general election what their arguments for from i know from standing on doorsteps in my constituency is for the u.k.

government to proceed with the negotiations and then that with the best possible deal so that's why all these things should be very much explored the modelling is in trying to get a solution that kate's both remain as and brick city years britain seems to be reduced to putting forward ideas that are pretty much unworkable is that really the best your party can do well i think that all options have to be on the table until there was an objective well i think the understanding is understanding of the why things are rejected now the fact that referendum has been hugely divisive in the. this country i do think one of the mistakes made early on was not trying to acknowledge that whilst the leave campaign of one sixteen million people forty eight percent of those who voted had not voted for that so in trying to bring people together to explain that we would be leaving but we would do it in a way that was not going to damage completely unnecessarily people's own livelihoods and our economy that's what we're sort of catching up to now that's right specks we debated both in parliament and in cabinet in the next few weeks you

said in april that the position of the problem ministers should not know in any way be under threat and that's the reason shown the kind of leadership labor m.p.'s can only dream about. frankly that's fundamentally at odds with the reality isn't it i mean just look at the opinion but the public aren't buying that line fifty four percent believe the tories are ineffective this is the latest poll commissioned by prospect magazine fifty two percent have you fundamentally divided and less than a third believe that you always put britain first in your priorities ineffective divided and failing to put britain first not much of america load is it from the public well as i say this as i know frank conversations on that's the scene is incredibly complicated nobody is calling out there for a change of government or a change of leadership of the conservative party or no of course everybody has a nose or people have these because actually what people want in this country is a stable government to get on with the bracks it negotiations that only they want

to have. been doing that well they don't have an effective government doing it i think i'm going to get agree with it so well that the cabinet obviously have to come up very quickly with an agreed position on these issues do they bring that to do and well the bracks referendum was just two years ago the negotiations the e.u. as we know started just a year ago after the general election and what i was saying there actually was a say there's no other type within my party or within the wider populace for a change of leadership and i think if you going to compare to reason a's leadership to jeremy corbin's you'll see on the issue of as with many other things on the labor side an even more divided party than we are but i'm not a part of that it really helps here the point is that actually what people want as i say is the best bricks that deal for the united kingdom and they don't feel they have a chance of getting it particularly the people who murder in this country as you said before the people who blow in millions of people who have to put consumer

goods in the shops who have to keep the factories working these are the people who have lost faith in your party you knew good well i think what they're saying at the moment is there's undoubtedly much frustration with how things are. panning out and in terms of the process of the unico she is i think what people are most complaining about this is when i talk to them is the lack of certainty it's very difficult moment to plan for for much given the uncertainty surrounding the process that's why i think the next few weeks are absolutely critical the summit the cabinet away day the white paper that's going to be published and then the debate in parliament do you trust the prime minister called the last november to say tone deaf ear what i was mentioning earlier about an article that had been written i suspect not by her but by her advisers who if you could you know you got to interrupt well i'm sure she i'm sure she absolutely would but it wasn't in terms of going to try and said just a moment ago about healing divisions in the country after the bracks referendum i

think some of that particular article did not do that if you were going to trust yes or do i want i mean this is the leader who denied just before last year's election that a social policy of james when everyone else in the country including all ministers knew that it had i mean look what happened a few days ago to the world respected former attorney general dominic grieve at the height of the recent political frenzy over the bricks of bill after much argument in the goshi ation he settled with the prime minister on the text of the agreement only to find next morning the text of change you know you didn't settle with a promise or text me so i was no no no i'd be very surprised he has said that because i was in the meeting as were many other members of parliament with the prime minister when that was being discussed he made it very clear that there were three parts or a new great to wording she could be started searching through and i wanted to go back over that was that was it that was a text of the table by by by government and i don't think. you're

a story person surance that the text would be discussed and that is exactly what happened but yes i think that theresa may wants there to be a deal i think she wants to get the best possible deal for the country and to try to get over as many divisions as possible. i don't see anybody else in government or in our parliament who would be able to offer anything at this stage that would be worth destabilizing the government for in changing any kind of leadership out what points will you put the country's interests above those of your party and say this is enough i don't have faith in the leadership of this country i mean everyone wrote your self-appointed role is to scrutinise us going on you're not happy with what's going on the country is not happy with what's going on at some point you have to say as a representative in parliament enough is enough go potentially that's what i do have to do but i also know what point will you do that i'm not going to sit here i think it's impossible what one thing i have learnt

a lot more principle i think over the course of the last two years with with bracks it in my previous professional career i've learned that actually setting artificial deadlines and it is a mistake because actually what's happening these are complicated set of negotiations on many many different issues actually the end of the day as an elected representative my red line is in relation to what's best for my constituents turns around here well i think the next two weeks are absolutely critical in terms of shaping the future relationship between the u.k. and the e.u. looking back over the last two years you were part of david cameron's cabinet which approved this referendum why did none of you ever asked the kinds of basic questions that people are grappling with know what if what if we lose the referendum what is the party splits what if europe applies the rules what about the northern ireland border why we're none of these questions. thought about before her and well i can't say they weren't there were thought about. well partly because of

the many of us campaigned in order to remain and it's difficult if you're campaigning for one thing to gaze into the crystal ball and answer every question that's going to come up i deeply regret the result but the result is we in this country over see how they fare democratic vote difficult very difficult for people to accept but i think it is the right thing to do to balance those two now which is to say yes we are going to leave the european union but we're not going to do it in a way that is damaging if we consider back to the past a read if the vote from two years ago actually i think what happens is the attention is not given so that future relationship between the two parties which is very important what is what is extraordinary looking back is that david cameron the prime minister that you served actually acknowledged during the referendum campaign that the no vote risked what he called destroying britain's economy and diminishing its standing in the world literally destroying the u.k. economy that was a war but he still went ahead and gamble with the future in the prosperity of tens

of millions of people without any preparation for the cunt of destruction that he warned about how could you the cabinet how could he have been so careless with the fate of so many millions of britons well i think it's important to understand the context in which the referendum arose there were and there still are many many millions of people in this country who were unhappy about the relationship with the you with our membership and they wanted to leave that become a defining what you took the top usually with the voters it was a top issue in the conservative party was with the voters well it became it was rising up if you remember all the everyone talking about to start is with us every want to let you out of it and fed up with the air with my party banging on about how this was all done to clear the air in your party no it was undone to clear the air even though to some. something from it in that the election look i didn't regret or somebody here can paint vigorously for remained i regret very much the

decision that was taken but it is impossible to run for him you know well i regret very much vision taken to leave the european union and that was that was the vote but holding the referendum was done for the better it was an issue that kept coming up time and time again on elections on doorsteps and it was something where people are they just have not had a job which they were not really able to push that he wanted to clean our and what i think it wasn't was it were carrying out in the country absolutely it was an issue that people were mentioning more and more on doorsteps in the midlands constituencies like mine and elsewhere and it was an issue which was coming to the exclusion of all other issues but obviously i very much regret the fact that it was the not the remaining campaign that won there were in the middle of these complexities now and we've got to make sure that parliament steps up to the plate scrutinize the deal holds the government to account and also gets the best possible deal that builds the best possible future relationship with the e.u. thank you bob good to have you on conflicts and thank you

thank you thank you. thank us to egypt. to in a to him . i'm going to.

abandon. the bunch .

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