w. on facebook and twitter. to date and in touch. whatever happened to martin schultz the former leader of germany social democrats who challenge the angle of marco last year for the chancery and failed spectacularly well he's my guest this week here in berlin why did use campaign fail and how does he react to criticism of his time as president of the european parliament. but intrudes welcome to conflict zone thank you are much looking back on your

campaign to become translator you admitted that you had made stupid mistakes you said miscalculations but the biggest problem was trust wasn't it you broke the promises why. and you make a bain i thing it was not a lack of trust it was a very specific atmosphere going to america tried successfully to escape from what we need in the election campaign open confrontation the competition of arguments for the best solutions and was very obvious not to enter a coalition with the conservative after the campaign yes if you smoke it to your question conserve the campaign of the mistakes made in the campaign after the compay i personally. promise not to join the government or the leadership of our going to back of the troops but i did it on behalf of the whole party as the leader of the party and there was a hollywood it was

a broken promise that the mother she wasn't then the party of change the opinion change the strategy and i was in there i was in the very difficult situation that the party as a whole join the government above the leader of the party not to do in the government because of that promise i mis. understood their message of the members of my party that they insist that the leader of the party should not draw in the government like you are the oldest ever to serve in the merkel lead cap i found that is i found this. very contradictionary but at the end yes i promise that and then you have the promise after i saw that i couldn't keep the promise that the. the overwhelming majority of members of my parliament insisted to do a result so you can stick to promises you couldn't stick to decisions you'd made that's a hard label to where isn't it you're going to political scientists minds university

said this endless vacillation was just doing his writers until i don't cover members of alt comments but. the situation was not as easy as mr volcker tries to describe it there is a party leader saying because the whole party of the holy the ship unanimously say yes we don't draw on the government with america then the leader in system is already criticised to keeping that line i kept the line with a unanimous vote and then all the other people of the leadership of my party changed the strategy joined the government and asked me not to do the same thing so you know in the party you're going to know i'm going yourself for breaking a promise i blame myself the miscalculation he spoke about was that i miss our minister looked and this is my mistake. that normally it is think a bill that the party changed with good arguments

a strategy and is asking the leader of the party not to follow the strategy. ok that was the case and therefore are resigned mr wilder is i think a man who is always commenting but from a point of view very far from the practical experience is political is have to me understand during the campaign you often seem to have conflicting roadmaps you were plagued with doubts you didn't know if you should be so the european or shorts the local candidate and then july twenty seventh team you said maybe i'm the wrong candidate the people are nice to me but it's out of pity do you accept now that you were the wrong can't know this and you are quoting things published in the book or by a journalist you paid me a million election campaign there are all of you who followed your campaign closely with your human election campaign there are strong moments or weaker moments if you have to live twenty four hours around the clock of that pressure from time to time

you make also observations under that pressure we have nothing to do with the reality this is human. that is you it's you that's me you know expressing who you are you have that time felt you were carrying a lot of anger don't you think there are for perhaps a moment even in your life that you say if i should continue to interview politicians in conflict zone i don't know there's such of ny thing in life to do why should i continue such moment and your life for sure also from time to time and polygynous able i wasn't trying to you have to be chancellor in the world and you were. that's the difference with leticia as our human beings all the others and that's what they're there are those of the some understand the question what has it to do to be coming chancellor than the very specific moment there is a kind of weakness exhausted in the middle of them i completely tired and then you say such a word and then

a journalist is publishing and then somebody is asking me in conflict so you are able to become a transfer because you say subs things i disagree i'm going to market has such weak moments for sure also but it's how you handle pressure when she is no one people are entitled to know how long under pressure now but this is lose it when the going gets tough you want if you want machines politicians you should continue to insist on that if you want the politicians are human beings like all the of those like their voters then you should follow my line where you are a good loser. we said in a television program after the results that angle of merkel had been the biggest loser and she'd run a scandalous campaign and then afterwards you admitted to your colleagues i guess i came across as a bit of a jerk as a disgruntled jerk if you want to interview me about that book ok we can continue your insults but no you are always occasions that your words are you are quoting observations that you made you are quoting the book this is a journalist and allowed him to come very keen to me i'm going to america to run

a scandalous complaint and i was very angry in the evening about that campaign she lost nine percent in the polls so this i think the description of reality and i'm not a bad loser are you looking for a comeback into federal politics no i'm not very likely not i'm not looking for a comeback i'm here i don't have to get back to come back. politics i'm serving as a member of the europe of the german parliament for i have not to come back to you i'm going do you want to do you see while you're interviewing me in conflicts or do you do you why are you interviewing me in conflict why because i want to find out about what you what you thought about your campaign and your time is european so i'm still president i'm serious still interesting from conflict so she won't have to get a dog about as a comeback i know but i'm asking about your future intentions where you still see yourself on the federal state spending

a part in federal politics putting yourself back as a candidate in the future as a candidate no now committed from what the chancellor now that's gone is that i think the. question for the time being has not who will run the s.p.d. for the next election campaign how to in proof the situation of the party this is the biggest question for the time being but you have specific views on the. as everybody is the party listening to you i hope so let's talk if we may about your time as president of the european parliament in the election campaign you accused of committing an attack on democracy that was one of the criticisms you had of but you presided in europe over an institution that was widely criticized for its democratic deficit and especially by the murdoch press in the united kingdom not just the most of most of the critics coming from you came

from right wing tendencies of the earth are you say it's not valid as a directly elected parliament the only direct elected the institution in the european union the european parliament if the european union is not sufficiently democratic i agree but this is not especially the european parliament the other way around this is the only directly elected institution in the european therefore this is completely mons but the elections that brought you to the presidency twice these were decided behind closed doors were there was an election it was decided beforehand who was going to win i had to run in the parliament that i had to to get the majority in the bottom in twenty twenty fourteen want to close those you know in twenty fourteen you actually become a president of the parliament you must run in the parliament and you must go i enjoy it i understand that and you vote to get the majority of the parliamentarians how can you say this was behind closed doors but it was an open election an open

vote with the bible overwhelming majority but in twenty fourteen you actually point to the post was announced by zygmunt gabrielle the vice chancellor for eleven days before the so-called vote was in that he announced that i am your running president you know that i am running as a candidate yes nothing else but it was standard practice wasn't it for the largest political groups to. alternate between who should have the posts but it was standard practice wasn't it for the largest political groups to alternate between who should have the posts what is anti democratic in the lot of people for all rika luna check of the greens said it was a precooked deal which we just had to rubber stamp in the parliament just had to rubber stamp it in the real parliament the eight parliamentarian groups representing more than three hundred different parties out of twenty eight member

states of the european union to find a majority in the european parliament is not functioning like in the house of commons i labor of the tories you're saying we mustn't just a chap. you must try to build a majority in the only majority possible to build after the election in two thousand and fourteen where neither arriving nor left wing majority was possible was that the two big groups cooperated by the way together with the liberals yeah so this was a deal between parliamentarian groups yes and this is a normal thing in all parliaments but what are your influences for the vote. you knew before the vote that you were going to be president of the i think this is don't understand your intention members of the european parliament voted in the secret ballot for me with the majority this is democracy i was running i had a candidate against me did you know that you were going to win no for you did you

really didn't do you know before the election the outcome in the mock receive thing you know the outcome after the shots a lot of people attacked the european parliament on democratic grounds in the twenty sixteen in the closing days of your term in office the number of any peace and transparency campaign has criticised the fast tracking of legislation through the parliament because they said key negotiations were increasingly being conducted in the shadows these so-called trial logs leaving far less room for debate and outside scrutiny why why did that happen why did you allow that to happen the watering down of democratic oversight no i disagree once more this is nonsense. alberta alamein a professor in e.u. law he said a major transparency black hole code where large concessions are won and lost with very little oversight and without public disclosure wrong it's completely wrong.

state watch called it a travesty of democracy and the opportunities for civilian civil society national parliaments to intervene and make their voices is non-existent i disagree completely the european parliament is a very transparent parliament the debate about the trial logs i agree with those who criticize the dialogues as a president of the european parliament i tried to open dialogues more for public by the way not all trial logs are secret there is a part of the eyelids open another part is secret i tried as a present of the european parliament in a so-called in the institutional agreement with the council and the commission to open that to make it more visible more audible for the public it failed because the member states governments refused it so to criticize for this the european parliament is completely wrong but if the european institutions transparent why should the public trust who is untransparent the commission governor ring in the

secret way so like all the governments in the european union secondly the council of the european union the most powerful institution the council of seven states in government is gathering secretly the only institution covering openly in the committees and in the plenary is the european parliament therefore that critic is wrong and it kept on losing trust because. feuer you can't you can't blame their democratic institution which is a blight obliged in the frame of the in the institutional relations of the european union to cooperate with institutions who are secret and then you come to reste make responsible the only open and transparent institution to be as the others not sufficiently open and transparent this is unfair and this unfairness i disagree entirely this is unfair which is concerning the yeah i think wonderful

work of the overwhelming majority of members of the european i understand in full transparency i understand that so why do fewer and fewer people bother to vote in the e.u. parliamentary elections and take this sort of twenty fourteen was the lowest ever there is one thousand that not in my country in my country in germany we are going for all over all minor point six percent in my country we increased the turnout. enormously in the last european election less and less across europe across here but europe is not you would need one piece of this twenty eight governments out of the me the question by the term out in the united kingdom was so low meanwhile in germany it was much whining about the average it kept on going down since the election started if the european union would be a state and the members federal states in the union in the federal summer and stay there would agree with you but the european union is the union of someone states with very heterogeneous and specific national circumstances twenty four for your

car make an average in europe twenty four years ago income parliament itself criticized seventeen point eight million euros was spent advertising the elections and you got down to the lowest level of participation across not in my country from some not in my country in some countries the turnout increased in other countries though one of the criticisms leveled at you was so. by but by you are dropping notable next question a very interesting question that's keep a moment an eye on it well you are right we've got a lot to get through so we can just move on and talk about just the i'm a very superficial interview well you are right if you are raising income flick so in such important questions and giving them no chance to answer in a very mr short time can you sixteen minutes a new dance or a lot of questions but i really want to get through quite a bit more of what i do in the in the time that we have i think the interview the

character of the interview is conflict zone and conflict really means not you are raising provoking questions and i come if provoking answers you're very welcome to give what answers you like but i'd like to talk about the breaches of the code of conduct for any piece especially when it came to transparency over any piece earnings and second jobs why did you appear disinterested in following up on these breaches of the code of conduct i didn't be interest you were interested in following up on them. as a president of the european parliament and also as a group leader here as very interested in the follow there's a lot of cases for example leave the cases of i think it was. sunday times of the u.k. . newspaper who made the thing law for cash and the excluded one of the members of mine who immediately hear from my crew. learned about spending gold

who went on to become parliament's special rapporteur on transparency accountability integrity he said that in twenty sixteen whenever the special committee that was set up to look at these breaches found evidence of a breach it reported it to you because you were empowered to act only you didn't know didn't concrete cases which would raise the wrong. gerald hafner former chair of that committee also said in twenty forty that you never followed up on complaints not a single one of these cases has had any conclusion he said any consequences and that is the end result of the tougher rules adopted by the european parliament i think we haven't done parliament all the citizens or european democracy any favors it is wrong they reported mr have have no came personally to me i remember and we agreed about a lot of different cases mr giggles never from the way to my office but always everybody to his website with allegations against me personally i

took it very serious in the blue of the european parliament to a lot of measures but at this point two members of the. who consider themselves to be the opposition against the ruling majority therefore i'm not subside very invalid their criticisms are invalid i think i think that they do not to increase transfer of transparency and the european parliament where there was a lot of controversy on another major gap wasn't the so-called general expenditure allowance that any piece received for office expenditure rentals phone bills things like that each m.p. m.e.p. gets four thousand three hundred forty two euros a month i think it is with with no questions asked and no accountability why this is a general in covering the costs of members of parliament in their constituencies for phones for newspapers for books for this is forty million euros a year of european taxpayers' money and no controls no receipts no financial spot

checks no audit nothing the question of trust yes and i trust the members of the european. and they said you didn't we have the same we have the same thing we have to have the same rule here in the european in the in the german parliament you get a general of loans to cover your costs and this is the thing the same in the european parliament and the parliamentarian like mr gold for example or mr hare from our woman over who is you know nobody checks let me check fourteen million euros of european taxpayers money just handed out with no controls no receipts no award nothing there's no general this is a general loans if the majority of the european parliament is of the opinion that this is appropriate it. we calculated by the way the seven hundred fifty members twelve times the year four thousand euros to justify the administration of the european parliament costs more money possible servants controlling them to save their money. it's more it's learned that is

supposed to comfort people more they would have don't see any controls the control is more expensive than the trust and once more your presumption the presumption of those people who criticize is that this members of the parliament who get the general unknowns don't spend the money for the things foreseen for the loans and i trust the members this is the difference between mr gold your own office expenses raised eyebrows didn't i mean in april twenty fifteen a review of the parliament's finances noted with concern that the large number of staff based in the office of the president of the european thirty five people including two drivers the person was highly questionable it said they warned that it set a bad example for cost reduction in fiscal responsibility with in parliament. when you accept that you know you could have cut your expenses no one of my office was in my office or smaller than the office of my predecessor does that matter fallon

president of you being part of the president of institution he is the president of eight thousand civil servants working for the parliament seven hundred fifty members you come make this with two three. to three voices and i was not surprised it was in the middle of a very but you took no notice of the criticism you didn't cut your staffing levels you didn't get rid of the you didn't get rid of the two top range b.m.w. no i found that this was appropriate and i find that until today and i think my successor have the same stuff and it is appropriated to. manage such a big institution you need stuff. this was a political decision by a hostile by a hostile committee the parliament warned that a quarter of voters had a very negative image of the parliament due to spending so. and you didn't think

you could set an example that's why i disagree this is to run such an institution you need support. i acted in the frame of. a structure i earned from my predecessor i was not the man who invented that structure and i wasn't you benefited from it yes i benefited from an i was not some rock of cut back but you didn't and i was not surprised that there's the first president who tried. to transform this only representative post in the political post i earned a lot of hostility by political opponents and they focussed suddenly with their criticism on a structural question instead of political content question i was not surprised and therefore i repeat i would have preferred to deal to discuss with my opponents about political items. because the structure of the run is

a drive against to talk about extravagance to why i was the first one who was criticised by all this previous us and will never criticize for it this was because i was a political figure and people and trying to make the european parliament more influential more powerful and then you earn also such a tax i didn't invent it i earned the then by the way my predecessor have more people in the stuff than me i would use that when i started in two thousand and twelve i reduce the size of my stop the shows a year never never by the way a number of these people took note of that the decision i reduced the members of my staff in relation to my predecessors which should say year ago you advocated a united states of europe a new constitution for europe you said any country that didn't adopt it should have to leave the european union by this draconian stance who wants who wants a united states of europe these days me for example i want that i suggested because

i think many others really today in the united kingdom for sure not in other countries yes i think the united states of italy poland hungary czech republic croatia and other islands you think they want. and right wing governments in europe are against deepening integration in the european union is not the news this is the case and i'm sure proud not to share the view of mr obama mr country but if we want to run in future times the european union and the idea of democracy against people like mr trump xi jinping obvious to put it we have to deepen european integration and not to redevelop the european union the kind of lose assembly of national states and this is my deep conviction and that's behind that idea of the united states of europe which will not be like the united states of america united kingdom or leaving the european union ok but france and germany have to deepen their

cooperation i think it'll ever happen i've been deeply convinced that this is the right way to go. martin shields thanks very much for being a poke at some thank you thank you yes good good because good. good. the be

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