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tv   To the point  Deutsche Welle  November 7, 2019 8:30pm-9:01pm CET

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school. after 100 years the ideals of the flops i'm more relevant today than they were 100 years ago the shaped things to come by the boss people understood designers or with shaping. small 3 part documentary starts nov 14th on t.w. . germany's this week celebrating the full of the berlin wall 30 years ago but the party mood has changed with dismay many in eastern germany say they've been left behind and feel like 2nd class citizens well when the wall came down on the 9th of november 1989 the euphoria was boundless and fun scene was the word of the hour in credit to pull people kept saying to each other
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a miracle it seemed to come to pass and the wall which appeared so in movable was pierced but that was then and now he's now so we are 30 years since the fall of the berlin wall what happens to the euphoria. of thanks very much for joining us and with me in the studio today i have got linda fear eka who grew up in the former g.d.r. and was 7 years old when the wall came down today she works as a reporter here d.w. and just completed a documentary about the full of the war and linda says it's only now free decades after the wall came down that we realize how radical the change was for people in the east also with us is anglo-french catherine nicholson she is european affairs editor was the broadcaster from. and believes that permanent euphoria is on
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realistic it's boring portman to learn lessons from the past she says under warm welcome to supporters freelance journalists only paterson to witness the fall of the wall 1st round and he points out that 30 years on from before the wall the far right winger worrying amounts to supporting the woman's communist piece. thank you once again all 3 for being with me today i'd like to begin with you charlie inevitably because you were there what do you remember most i remember most. listening or watching television and hearing reports coming in that there was some movement at the crossing points in the bag in wall and so we got into a car and drove flat out to a crossing point at the wall called the bone home. and people were walking towards us as we drove along this white blue i thought and we thought i would this must be just west berliners have come to have a look and now walking back into west berlin as we got closer and closer more and
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more people started coming through and it was a maelstrom of people by the time we actually managed to walk there and the mood was just incredible it was there were people crying hugging each other you know when i think about it today it almost makes me cry can we speculated for so long about this happening and people would always ask themselves you know do you think it's going to happen in our lifetime and then suddenly my sense is that it came right out of the blue. or you experienced absolutely nobody who i speak to now says oh it was inevitable that it would happen and it was absolutely a shock and a wonderful shock as well. a wonderful shock catherine you would talk up in bed and i was thinking that think i was about 8 years old. my my father had been to germany just a few weeks before i think in september quite placed you know the. further south and he'd taken fate. his insurance the watch towers and soldiers with guns really
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scary when you're in a boat so we knew what the berlin wall was my brother and i and on the night my mom came up as you go to south by just come downstairs watch this on t.v. this is historic and i don't even really remember her explaining what was going on we just watched and sort of drank it's in and you know obviously much harder to get the feeling than if you actually there like you were but you know you grew up needing about knowing about the berlin wall and having had that experience of my dad telling us about it it seemed like you say what this huge scary thing is i permit it's god what is this and today you are with friends 24 and i wonder from the french perspective when you look burkas are those great days in once you know if you don't how much of a of a triumph for liberty was it from the french perspective or was there something scarier going on yeah i think you know in the in the maimane of the berlin wall coming down i think as you say the program that was euphoria quite generalized around the western part of europe and i'm sure behind the iron curtain as well that
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there was a say that was fair in france for many people i mean even today there is that ambivalence for a certain part of the population when it comes to the idea of a big strong germany and of course the idea that the 2 geminis might come back together was a worry so all the more important perhaps there was such a peaceful revolution exactly yeah sometimes actually when we talk about the problems of reunification whether we forget some was actually what a miracle it was that it was peaceful you know this death zone that people was on the allowed to come up see not a shot fired nobody killed on that lie so the following days as people pass through the wall. and of course people will suddenly into the business of working out what was going on and things that perhaps that passed everybody by a little bit but i do think it is worth remembering it was a peaceful revolution of salut les my spring linder and. the you were born in 1982
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in the city of brandenburg west of berlin. how happy was your childhood when you look back because after all we do describe we just heard about you know before began to chance of eastern germany where it was a dictatorship or was it growing up in a dictatorship i mean i was really young and so i would say i had a perfectly happy childhood my grandparents lived in the countryside so we went there to you know what kids do we climbed on trees and you know we we have our friends and i didn't exist i didn't i never felt like i was in the i was living in to take a ship that's not a war at that would have appeared it might need being 7 years old but still i mean i remember that night and i remember that from my parents it was kind of like a liberation yeah i mean where and. suffering much in the g.d.r. but they still felt unfree and we had family in that in west berlin we had family and western parts of germany so you know of course that was the most happy moment
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of their lives as well and like for me you know feeling afterwards that it has so much to do with with me i always you know i shiver when you talk about that night because i always think like oh man i wish i would have been older or so i would have gone there and my mother was a teacher big ben and. we've been watching it on t.v. and she was saying like ok she called you and you have to work 2 more. children and they didn't go there to do this syndrome dangle about and also came to me because she was working going to extend. well as we've already seen linda has made a very thought provoking documentary this being broadcast here on d.w. to mark the full of the war it's all about 3 generations of one family the family the family of regaining his the brunt he was a very popular politician in leeds to suddenly post away 18 years ago now let's hear from each of those 3 generations and from linder again. i didn't want to see
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you home school spirit being well we felt like we'd been imprisoned for 3 mo and survived but we tried to keep the wall out of our thoughts from 100 and tell the children that inner freedom is what counts why i think so you can make anything you want of it and gain from it someone has to give in and use them i'm caught in my mind the west was different in the lynwood been near the wall many times by the church of reconciliation and had peeked over the wall it looked more colorful and vibrant we have a plague and spoke watch when i was 12 i stood in front of the mirror and swore i would not settle for saying i would get out of a stoplight does it make sense to make up what you have just imagined this was actually the death strip and one wall was here and another wall was there and now we can just walk across we can dance and make music how beautiful it is that we're all here and dancing together all of you another time for.
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interesting stuff under the grounds of the 3 year he says we will woolton we were imprisoned but it's the freedom that counts on a small. i mean he and his wife they actually they lived in then i watched that this is where the wall was you know was built so they really experienced how cruel this this whole. divide of germany was really they saw it with their own eyes but they decided to stay in the east which was you know people didn't do that reeking of it happens on brother he went to the west you know so it was really a family that said ok we don't want the regime to when i was over you know so that was i think something that not a lot of people did and they of course they were part of the church and so they're you know they have been a little word world of freedom where they could also talk about the other of course they were also you know like. the i watched by the stasi so you know but it
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was a family that always you know they didn't. they were still heads up you know in the system they still live their life as they wish to you interesting i'm there what about the granddaughter cecilia we also heard from her she says that these days you know people can and do go and actually dance and poncy and hang out on the form of death strip how much of how typical is that lightness and that openness and for her generation i think it's you know this is burnin i mean you can see and this history every day i mean i don't know i cross every day from west to west berlin to east berlin and it's just really normal and for them as well i think they're really benefiting from a reunited germany and this this generation i mean they feel that there are still differences but also in burleson i think a lot of the things are complete it. telford you're not getting the younger generation benefiting from from the economic developments of recent years but there
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are you know there are many problems out there in this great inequality absolutely yes i mean the speed of reunification perhaps was necessary in some senses if it was going to be done maybe it does have to be done that quickly but it was quite a brutal process was in it with the the toy and the privatizations of all these businesses and all those people made unemployed was it 3000000 within just a couple of years i think i don't think the 5 percent of people lost their jobs in the in the ninety's that was totally traumatic yeah and when you think about i mean when they've been periods of mass unemployment in france or in the u.k. it's never been on that scale and that's left scars for such a long time for those generations and so i think it is interesting what you say about the new generations have only 9 a unified germany i think that they will have a you know they'll be coming at it from a different point of view and some of those skulls won't be as present for them bob i think that's very true i mean i know people in their thirty's who live in now.
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and they speak only english among themselves because they've grown together a whole community of young people of their age from croatia from all over europe and they have english as a common language and the bullying has just gone for them it's really is history. books when we talk about the younger gen will be told about these germans in general when we mention the inequalities that you were just describing how i would rate you says if the people who told these germans are told constantly and of over a long period of time know that they are ungrateful and they moan sue you don't. i mean yeah i mean if i talk about the young generation and the differences are not there so much anymore i'm talking about berlin you know when you need just a single reason that you know i wouldn't say that germany is united fully back because we can see i mean we can see the different paychecks we we see differences
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and you know where people are represented so yes difference is still there and i think hearing for 30 years that you know this isn't that bad to my parents also heard you know you just wait and it's everything's going to be what you can see your parents in the 1990 so well my father like many others lost his job he was working in the steel factory that was gone afterwards and. it was just you know there was not a lot of jobs you could get into and it's also he was same age like me now 36 but he never got back on his feet and this is something that was it was a brutal change and i think a lot of people around all my friends have different stories to tell so you know and just realizing how brutal and how you know not only using a job but also the values that are in the system you know that changed everything changed you know people went to the west the social lives work people were chilling
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and steeples so you know social network also was gone in a way so i think we're just only beginning now to really fully understand that and also kind of like understand the people because really it's something that you always heard was your come on it's only about it's only about money you know it's not only about money it's about learning a whole new system in of be really really short amount of time and i think there was a lot too much for and i think something is interesting that we spoke about before the program. it was about how the people in west germany that life didn't really change you know there was this sense that perhaps they were paying. and all of that but in terms of day to day life things went changing in the same way they were for the east germans with this as you say an entirely different system of democracy is capitalism a completely different way of thinking about yourself in the world i think that that's the case and i think that it was really with hindsight a complete waste and taken the east and west and as still occupy good jobs have
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been avoided should have been avoided this takeover as you describe it well i think if you have a situation that you had in 1909 that the majority of east germans were screaming for the mark i think wanted you read if occasion really badly as a parent of 3 weeks earlier there was screaming for democratic socialists but it that something happened it's snowballed very very quickly people realized i think as soon as they went over and got as how cold reaching money they going to get 100 miles each and they soon realized that that was new get them anywhere so they wanted to reunification very very quickly in this illegal consequence of it was that it would be a western take of them because they had the cash to do it or they have the numbers as well they had a number of case in difference and i think we looked at it a lot back then market wise which i understand in the context and it was also nobody knew how long we would have to bring
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a new reunify it was an alternative logic that was the problem to the market logic and yet appeared but you know i mean i think i agree with the take over because you know what would have been nice looking back 30 years is looking at what are things that we might could take over from one system to the other to help us all together to bring you know bring our germany forward and i think they never did that i mean there was. you know there's also it's about solidarity and i think we lost that and nobody looking at it from a market point of view. well internationally angela merkel has been far and away the most visible former east german of hope it's a different story though the question is why. from the outside until americans rises the 1st eastern german woman to become chancellor of a reunified germany sounds like a success story american business magazine forbes named her the world's most powerful woman 7 years in a row. u.s.
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president obama honored. with the presidential medal of freedom america's highest civilian award partly because of her efforts for freedom in east germany. after the unpredictable donald trump took office many turned to america to be the leader of the free world. but in germany chancellor merkel often encounters hostility bordering on hatred when she appears especially in the east. colors yellow beaded many reject to refugee policies and chant we are the people. protesters feel angry and disappointed with the woman from the east many of them feel that she doesn't represent their interests america is being worn down by political bickering at home as chancellor merkel only divided germany. well it's an interesting question but the one i would really like to us linder is why isn't the american such a red rag to so many people in eastern germany. difficult question but i think one
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thing as you know she never did like really east german identity never came through really and so you know people don't see her as an east german petition but as a politician you know working for the system as they call it or she's one of the others and she's playing and we well she's really successful within the system but i think. many of these germans or especially the ones voting for rather populist parties like you know they they don't identify with her and her politics so this is why this is my explanation so now i know you're very interested in the rise of the populist right in your. i wonder whether you fight then to fight a special eastern german and go on that narrative well i think it's very much this feeling that people in the east feel that they left behind because but plays back into this whole thing the west and take over which it was and i think people are beginning to realize that it was that now and
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a lot of people don't feel represented they feel that there's an elite up there it's like brick city in britain there's an elite out there which tells them all what to do and they're not the elite is not telling them what they want to hear they don't want to be told that they've got refugees coming to live next door to them and they say who lost this and it it all comes together if you have a right wing political party that can put in all these arguments and vocalized them then you've got something like the f.t. and that's why it's making such such begin really concerns cathy with. the marginal ois left behind absolutely i think there are parallels in so many parts of the western world for the better was you know in front of men i really struck me what you said about young people in cities in germany feel that unifications happened well similarly in paris there is a big movement even if that's where a lot of demonstrations happen is people who live in the countryside. having fewer of your g.p.s.
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and shops and even you know the bakeries the closing down which is really symbolic and importance in france you know it means that there isn't life in these places anymore does it feel like you're making noise like a king in paris of directing without knowing about that life so i feel like here in germany that's a different it's a ration of quite a similar phenomenon to doing here in germany about the 57 percent of very soon german people people in eastern germany who say they feel like 2nd class citizens i mean it's not just another poll that says 57 percent i think people's lives do need to be paid attention to 0 sense of self is that's of pride your sense of purpose it's going to matter and sorry to interrupt you but that's the pressing question why i'm going to merkel not addressed and why is she not establish that dialogue perhaps it's easier to address hits into. when you've got a country that 2nd no mickey stable and prosperous although i think perhaps the downturn that's being full cost is coming in the next governor says it could be a massive test i think it's a there's a lot of things you can do i mean if there if there's differences you can see on the paycheck 30 years off the wall came down we have to equalize equal it but then
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we think that people in the west will say that's so unfair because the cost of living in these threads somewhat heavy doesn't it just you know it doesn't make up for it and i always say you know the narrative we're saying is you know you people in the east you do you didn't pay the same amount of money the best in people and it's not you i mean somebody decided to draw a lie to you to build a wall but it wasn't the people in the east so you know if you start the story to tell the story from there you know you get. you distance yourself a little bit from the whose fault it is that the people where there are there and i think 30 years of the war why does my mother was a teacher for 43 years why yes you have to earn less than a teacher in the us i don't get it you know angry as you get about these things i get really angry now you know i'm not 53 of the percent of the population are really unsatisfied and you know not all of them vote for the a 15 but you know i think it is a problem if they're not represented that's for me that's the most precious issue
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if you don't if you're not and that's figures 1.7 percent of the east germans are in leading position top positions only only 1.7 percent of them are east germans so if you are going to show that in fact the other day that sort of region eastern german universities and colleges of higher education i don't know how many there are several dozen at least all of the heads of all of these institutions in the east from the from the from the worst that we have to say this is something you have to change and there you are you know if you don't feel well i think if this is look at look at race in across the board i mean east germany has profited enormously since the fall of the believability and people are not richer and the job consists. completely but i think now we've got to the stage where people are beginning to realize really what happened and looking back properly at history and saying well what really happened to me and what all of these people's concerns but it's taken a really long time for that to happen and i think that young generation that you
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would say it came about is probably a really big parts of the k. part of the solution to this because you know people who do not have that mental will the people who before the fall of the world talk about you know they they've grown up with unified germany cyberspace if that generation can feel a desire to stay in east germany to start businesses that to start their families that has been the big brain drain as well population transfer you know if the new generation of east germans can feel east german and feel hopeful about east germany just explain to that i mean there are more people going back to east germany now than there are leaving so that's it's over it's time to but so many have gone already i think there's a small percentage of them that's true but if you look at the numbers and they're in the last elections to ring you know it was actually people. younger than 13 also voted for a large percentage for the a 50 story you know viewers want to warn you. of
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course your insanity is problematic i mean i think it has a lot to do with like cities and like really areas where there's not much structure there's not much jobs high paying jobs you feel left out i think that's really a big because also in the east we have great cities that are functioning that don't vote for the that much money you know it's that's a big part of the problem and it's also what i said about representation you know part of the system you know you know you don't you know vote for the system and be a 50 claims to be an anti-establishment party and that's where they come in. tony we begin with you you know what happens. the euphoria what became of the euphoria well i think it's your fault you for your sort of given way to reality and i think that what's happened is that people have realized how much they've actually sort of lost out and that now have to really really stablished their own identities not
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only in east germany look at countries like poland. good point you know people thought oh it's the end of history in 1900 what is going to be a nice liberal and not i mean people are trying to find out who they really are through right wing movements but that will change things are changing in 100 i think last month obama's party lost in budapest budapest is no longer controlled by all bones party so it's moving in the opposite direction and bracks it has not been decided. to. go for it how long is it going to take for east and west to grow together ski classes and that well i think that this issue of euphoria where they go on it only gets you safe is a constant process isn't it history's happening all the time say you know perhaps the end point people full saw in 1909 will never happen that germany's going to get somewhere else lender's you got a one sentence message of optimism yes i'm pretty optimistic i think it will take
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maybe a little more but. 2 or 3 generations is very hungry for she said it with a sluggish it was a lovely part of references for joining us here on to the point that he's enjoyed the show as much as i have to combine its way into one show spark thought it. was. a political.
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i am. he wanted to smash the berlin wall long before it finally felt. real fishing in new york state you know linda burke is actually better known as the legend
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of german rock music is the song. let's find her mom's amazing my sister the. bob stream on. this week on. after the fall of the world no summer night little you. sleep. carefully.
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to. discover the a. 1000000. subscribers . documentary. i'm not laughing out loud because sometimes the sound but less than nothing with you but you have been thinking deep into the german culture. you did seem to take this day out. if called out ok enough time right so join me i mean the captivity double post literature invites us to see people in particular. as the kids find.
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rebooked on youtube. this is g w news live from berlin tonight a major crack in nato as the french president warns europe that the military alliance is quote brain dead but germany's chancellor and nato secretary general they are rejecting president macros idea that europe can no longer rely on the u.s. and nato there is unity however into thinking that freedom does not come for free
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also coming up tonight as foreign dignitaries gather in germany as the nation prepares to celebrate 30 years.


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