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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Sammy Wilson  Deutsche Welle  February 17, 2022 9:30am-10:00am CET

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studies of course, with the secret of the friendship dogs and starts february 25th on d w b o. much of a u. k may be getting on with bread it, but nowhere it's a fact more devices than in northern ireland and no political group is angry about them than the b u. p. the democratic union party it's target is the so called northern ireland protocol device that keeps northern ireland both in the u. k. and for trade purposes in the new single market at the same time. complicated. yeah, very. but the aim was simple enough to prevent the hard border between the law and the irish republic and to protect the good friday agreement. my guess this week
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from county, antrim, and northern ireland is sammy wilson, the chief whip, the parliament in western. he want pat protocol, scrat, you are the one who a year ago called for guerrilla warfare to destroy the protocol, didn't do you stand by that? i do worse in less than 3 months. they'll be election to the northern islands assembly with the d. u. p. won't say what it will do, it loses a nationalist pain party. so the stability of the political institutions never that strong is once again on the line. what do the people make of it? what about business? and why is that b u. p. be meeting an umbrella group loyalist paramilitaries when all parties pledge to see the back and all that and more on context. so tell me wilson, welcome to conflict zone. thank you. thanks for the invitation. let's look 1st. if
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we may have the northern ireland protocol, which seems to be the main objective, your party's displeasure at the moment. if i can go that way, you've talked about the damage, it's doing to the integrity and sovereignty of the u. k. to northern ireland constitutional position. the peace process, the economy, in other words, a complete disaster, right. it is, and of course that's not just a shared by my party that's shared by the whole of the union of community and all of the parties which represent the unionist community. i think the, the, the most apparent damage to the citizens as the impact which has, has on our economy. and secondly, of course, and this is much more important as far as i'm concerned, the damage which it does to the constitutional relationship between northern ireland and the rest of the countries which we belong. ok, be economy, can we take the economy 1st? if it's such a disaster, how is it that the economic output of northern ireland reached
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a 13 year high last summer? it's now an estimated 3 percent bigger than it was before cove. it, the value of northern is exports to the republic of ireland was almost $4000000000.00 euros last year. increase of 65 percent over 2020. when the damage to that, well, i think that the damage is, 1st of all, you got to look at northerners position relative to the rest of the country to which we belong at the that it kingdom has done well of course, out of bricks up exports. ready have gone up quite substantially, kind of trade things and ordinarily, of course, as an exporting region with them the united kingdom because you're such a small local market. and secondly, of course are being shoots amounts of money pumped them to the north mound economy . as a result of the government's action against coven, and many business. and i've been with some business this morning. and they told me to call also the, the m m put reduction taxes grants, etc. that even with call with the don very well worried off that was all the damage
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that you're talking about. i mean it will it, in fact we have you managing director of a firm and done murray called brook vent on the outskirts of bell fos. he says, wherever the job losses, where the factory closes, when the evidence to support this idea that the protocol as damaged northern ireland, he doesn't see it. well and of course, one of the reasons why there are, there has not been a huge reduction on employ. this because the united kingdom having left the has got higher growth than most other european countries. and we are now back to on employment levels which were pre covered levels. the damage the economy has been a number of ways. first of all, we have higher inflation. and northern ireland because the cost of bringing goods into north america has gone up by 25 percent. secondly, many goods which used to be available tis are no longer available. companies are struggling with supply chines because companies in england have the fuel supply to
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nor march to, to the increase paperwork on the delays with customs check. and of course, that has meant that the were either foods available has been reduced and end of individuals across northern ireland found it difficult to obtain goods without having customs to these, imposed on them. even though it was good, you're coming from other parts of the united kingdom. yet we have customs to the symposium goods which are coming in to another part of the united kingdom. well, something can find that more onerous than the public because at the end of last october, the regular poll from queens university, belfast show to slim majority of voters, 52 percent agreeing or strongly agreeing that the protocol is on balance. a good thing for northern up from 43 percent into pose earlier in the year. so you're swimming against the tide here and you know, and they were not swimming against the tie them. you know,
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i think that sometimes people's attitudes towards the protocol helping affected by the views of many people. how that we should remain within the, the european union. the wealth and talks are going on between the government and the you to try and out problems with implementing the protocol. you don't have much faith in these talks to, you know, i don't because of course he has years some the years northern ireland, right? the school withdrawal processed, they hoped, talked about the importance of protecting the single market. even though only 4 percent of the trade between goes to the european union. very small percentage, only 5 percent of the firms in northern ireland, at the trade with the irish republic. and so the chances of leakage and to the european single market from northern ireland were very, very remote and then they will, i, me, you hear. but you seem to forget that the british governments fingerprints on every page of that protocol,
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the government was forced into the protocol kicking and screaming, it signed it, sealed it, and hailed it or the one, the full achievement, didn't it? on the and i don't, i don't in any way try to moore from the argument that the you take off equal would equally liam for this because he doesn't have the, except the thing which has been put forward by european, you know, i'm somebody making the point that the european union has abused northern ireland to try and keep a freaked in the door of the u. k. and one of the ways which have done other courses through the protocol. and the fact if you look at all of the arguments which the make are dealing with the difficulties with the protocol this cause, it's easy if you would a line more with our single market. if you would align with our customs roads, then you know you wouldn't have any difficulty. it's good 100 rules upside down and inside out is offered to have the customs paper work, cut food checks by 80 percent. wasn't to take it or leave it off,
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or it was the basis for the concession, but your democrats, against that you were the one who a year ago, called for guerrilla warfare to destroy the protocol, didn't you? you stand by that i of course, and i think that by the language which was deemed to be pretty little century and some gordon i, i totally stand by line. we think that you should examine more closely the way in which european union, the hero problems some of the accepting the words which they put on paper. let me give you some examples of this. this flexible attitude which the european union applies to checks coming into northern ireland. there's supermarkets in northern which bring goods from gp. our subject checks, yet they don't have one shock. and the irish republic to the good couldn't off be going empty. the irish republic or into the single market, yet you have cysts that they go through the full range of checks. if you look at some of the, the ludicrous ways in which they've applied the protocol. for example,
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a firm in my constituency, which was construction work in scotland. how's it as habits vehicles turned away from the port and learn? because we're showing on the waves later? well, your, your efforts, mr. wilson, your efforts to declare the protocol unlawful had been thrown out by the bow tie court can't, you can't accept that. you've had your days in the court. you've made repeated political and legal challenges. if you want to live in a country governed by law, you have to accept that, don't you? but well, maybe if you'd let me finish the meet, you might not like the answer. but in one hand, you try to the fam, the attitude of the european union. and yet when i give you examples heavy examples of how the european union insists on checks being made for goods come in. when last week we're demanding that any passengers coming from gp to northern ireland should
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be searched and kissed the, brought some which of them with them and to northern ireland. and so, you know, don't, don't tell me that the you are kind of be flexible. the europe using the people in north america for their own political. that is to try and on do practice and try to ensure that the u. k. has a line of so the ag regulations, otherwise they say they will cut northern arnold off from the rest. and i, i hear what they say i, i don't what i hear what you're saying that is interference and the internal affairs of the, the united kingdom. and i guarantee that no other european country would stand for that. if, if the e you were to triumph and courage, separate us movements and speak to me or in germany or an employee or any other part of the united kingdom, those companies will be open arms apart. and that's why we are angry, by the way in which they're trying to split up the united kingdom. you've had your
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day in court, you've had your repeated and political, legal, and challenges. if you want to live in the country, i come back to this question. you want to live in a country, come by law. at some point you have to accept this or just democracy mean only accepting the outcomes you like. well, again, we should check the facts for you asked the question. we hope that the courts has not made the station. the course is simply given an entrance to say some that on till we'll fax the kiss or hailed them the, the checks must go on. that's what the judge. 7 for. the judge has a record of being quite pro anyway, i was talking about june last year when you had the computational arguments brought before the court. that the breaks it withdrawal. that conflicted with the $1800.00 acts of union that was thrown out. and that's not the decision of the court. that was a local court made up of decision made by him judge. she made the season regarding the checks only a couple of weeks ago. and i would say that there was a much
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a political and put in that the system as there was a legal end put into the the fact of the matter is that the government, the self hasn't met a deep kiss in court, was the change the constitution of northern ireland by default, when it allow checks to occur between northern ireland and she paid, the government said that the active union was actually imply of the change. and yet, oddly enough, the judge, we had to say, no dock of union have been chance even though the comments on legal argument was that it had chance of getting. and that's why the p s. should not be considered. did. um maurice johnson lie to your party about the protocol. well he, he's a certainly, before he actually had the satan himself made promises that he would do the things which teresa may done them conveniently because he needed to get
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a withdrawal agreement. he accept the cm terms as treason a had tried to push through the height of comment on which he was against. so yes, he did not. he was not truthful on this. and that's why we're saying he has an obligation. if he wants to keep the united kingdom together, if he wants to ensure that the people of northern ireland, differently from people in other parts of kingdom, he lost them on day the protocol. and don't forget, i mean, you talk with breaking the law of breaking the law. the protocol itself actually has probation for changes to me and the political declaration which accompany nathan, it's not revocable. you keep saying it's irrevocable, but it's not irrevocable. the northern protocol, is it? no, no, it's not the piano to go. we are we, we have said that the protocol itself and the legal declaration which accompanied look, consider considered that there would and could be alternatives to. and we are simply
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st. goldman make sure that those turn of those are applied under the damage which is being done to as well. the terms of the protocol allow the northern ireland assembly to provide consent for regulations. continuing in northern ireland, the 1st vote to take place for 4 years, 4 years after the end of the transition and every 4 years after that if passed by a simple majority. so what to revocable about that it's not when you get this out in 3 years time, can't you in this embley? well, 1st of all and again, i think you should check your fax on this one before you ask the question. because the terms of the north of the northern assembly set up on under the northern ireland act, which is a law helping broken and they were broken when the protocol. busy was signed because that vote in the assembly was meant to be across community folks. and that part that the requirement for a cross community vote the law and that has been removed has been broken in order
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to make sure that there is no cross community consensus for these arrangements. the fact that not one unions party and not support some means that had the loss and had the good friday agreement stood on the legislature which, which give effect to the good friday agreement been put in place and kept and place them these rule. the northern protocol could never been brought into law. there is another good example of where the rule of law has been subject to change by the northern protocol and by the you, by the method of your tactics over the protocol on winning you much traction in the opinion. polls coming up to shed, you know, the not in the sandy elections in may the lucid talk, northern ireland track, a pole run in the middle of last month, asked for people's preference 1st preference if the elections were tomorrow, she in vain lead with 25 percent your party was trailing on 17 percent. how are you
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proposing to narrow that gap? well i think that 1st of all i would challenge alicia talk poland, and dave. all the posters. how me had very little of a simply because of the way it was conducted. it was conducted as a survey, which people could ring in to 3 or 4 times just to their, their, their vote and their opinion. so lucian book or not for sure, actually reflect the opinion. but nevertheless, we do know that because of the impact of the protocol is had, there's a lot of disillusionment within the community. and i think that we've got to, 1st of all, make it clear to the, you know, population that if they wish there to be continued opposition to the protocol, then they must fall for the party, which has been consistently against them, which has actually provided alternatives to us on which ever becomes a biggest party and the assembly after the next election will not implement the
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jeffrey donaldson said a few days ago. it was time for the people of northern ireland to have their say. if that's true, then isn't it will so time for the d u p. to tell them exactly what it stands for and your party hasn't. it hasn't said whether it would nominate someone to serve as deputy 1st minister if she said wins the largest number of votes. so will you or won't you accept that if she fail williams? well, it thinks 1st of all, no party. i can't think of any party either in the kingdom or in the other country, which speculate would pick hypothetical questions of late losing an election. we are going in this election when we are we're going and confident that the union people in northern ireland when fiercely kathy bigotry affect terry and bigger prevention fee, him will make the right decision and walked for us. so mean, why would be went on election with our hands dying, speculating the after the election we might have lost on what are we going to do in
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the event, the being of losing. we walked and jack conference and to the people in northern ireland and tell them we, we are i to, when we come, when with your support, we will win. the consequence of not when they are to put on a party of terrorists. they have abused the union's population not only physically, but also in terms of their culture, their history. and yet, the only thought that you said that jeff jeffrey donaldson says it would present a real problem for union, for unionism, if shin fain wins what, what exactly is the problem taking part in a free and fair election and accepting the result is that is not a problem, no problem is the problem is that if she and fan were to win the election and to be the biggest party, then you can be sure that the very 1st thing that demand would be at the stabilizing record and them on the future of northern ireland,
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once you have one referendum of that nature, according to the law and online, you have to have one every 7 years. so you don't have that the stabilizing effect of stumbling from one reference to another. i know that if there was her effort in what we opinions should referendum tomorrow, 66 percent the people stayed room in with them, united kingdom. but the problem would be this. the politics would then be domini ups in northern ireland as to what happened to hardy, a change people's opinion or where them died. coming up to the next rep random a bit like this in scotland. when the scottish nationals have one referendum and last the that they've been agitating for another on another. i'm scottish politics is night dominated by the issue of independence from the kingdom. not the issues which affect people on a day to day basis like dealing with the ordinary problems which people want to deal with. and that's why jeffrey johnson's right that would be the stabilizing. that would be a distraction from the real problems which politicians should be seeking pe address,
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but also be stabilizing family wilson, that the d u. p is currently trying to make up its mind whether it's actions, if she's saying wins, would be to collapse all sharing agreement. if you don't get the result you want to in the may 5th elections, is that right? shows the democratic process doesn't know one again for you ask a question, maybe it would be better to actually look at what chevy thongs said. deputy johnson means that the point that if the protocol. busy is not dealt with, then it would be impossible to resurrect the institutions for 2 reasons. first of all, if the institutions were resurrected, there'll be a requirement in law. the implement the protocol. we will not do that. so we will not have institutions which would implement protocol if we can stop them being put in a bin couldn't operation. the 2nd reason why he said that is the them situations themselves, given the divisiveness of the protocol,
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could not possibly operate to you'd never get consensus. so you would never, you would simply how institutions were noticed. patients will be near because the poise of the protocol would prevent the the operation and the smooth operation of the assembly. that was a context in which he said that. and i think that that's when he common sense when you look at it and that way, let's talk about the paramilitary groups in northern ireland. there's been some concern that jeffrey donaldson recently met a group representing loyalist paramilitary organizations. why the need to talk to such people? well, i think the 1st of all, if you don't speak to such people and try to convince them that there is a political solution to this problem, we are pursuing a political solution. then of course, you only convince people that the only way of dealing with this as the direct action on the streets. i don't want to see that. i look 340 years about them more
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than ireland. so the aim was come down from that, was it? and i think the p successfully on that, you know, don't forget people were projecting all kinds of sleep disorder over the summer. there were surprise that didn't happen, didn't happen. and all of actually just by accident that happened is result of attempts to convince those who may have been heard to go out. great. that look, give the politicians a chance to transfer the site as well. the reasons why the and the u. k. government have a huge width of responsibility on their shoulders because of course, we're not the ones who can bring about the change in the protocol or a u. k. gotten to do that, and they ought to be aware of the very real danger where politics is not seem to work than there are. we will say will stand the site and we'll try and make our contribution. miss wilson, the fresh start agreement in 2015 committed among others, the northern ireland executive to bringing paramilitaries them to an end once and
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for all what has to be done to fulfill that commitment. on december 2020, the independent reporting commission said it's a dereliction of duty on all of us to simply allow these organizations to rumble along in our communities engaging in coercive power and control those your party accepted share responsibility for that the election of duty. no, cuz i don't think we have in their lesson or judy, another state they jerone after criticizing the or, or the least impliedly sizing me for our party talking to promote these. we have in case of these and are all wrong constituencies. we have sought to try and ensure that rather them involve themselves and trying to create problems that they get involved them, trying to improve our communities. we have even given substantial resources to groups which would be regardless of our foster. our previous leader was hugely
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criticized for her and gaze with promote lisa, trying divert them from criminal and promote activities in the community activities . it was up to the army and all of this on one hand, people say, what do you do in a big part of the lease? and emily, you go and talk to them directly to try and convince them that there are other ways in which they can make a positive contribution to saudi. get them for the talking, the terrorists? well, how far away ave, from, from making that positive contribution? because the independent reporting commission said param, militarism in northern ireland remains a clear and present danger. and it cited $236.00 instances in the latest financial year where households reported being homeless due to paramilitary, intimidation, financial, extortion, sexual abuse, power, military style, assault. i mean, how long is this going to go on in the non? how do you, how do you normalize that situation?
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well, and i think you also recognize that, that point to bite that most of those activities are night carried by part of the peace. 9, move on to organize crying, and then the society course monitor, which is how you're talking. like you have organized crank groups and the differences in northern ireland. some of those people have access to weapons, etc. they were able to instill fear in the community. i'm still here to make an argument as those who wish to change should be encouraged to change. and you should do your best to try and get all them activities which are more positive build up their community. those are not prepared to change and should be treated as criminal gangs and be subject to the c, m. criminal investigations and sanctions, as you would have for triads or any other groups, drug dealing groups or whatever other parts. or i'd, unfortunately,
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we're out of time. so we will some thanks very much for being on counseling. so thank you. thank you. a, a a with ah,
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