and the poison spreads on with the great documentary series destruction of a nation starts march, 4th on d. w. much of the u. k. may be getting on with brakes it, but nowhere or it's a fact more devices than in northern ireland and no political group is angry about them than the d. u. p. the democratic union party it's target is the so called northern ireland protocol. the device that keeps northern ireland, both in the u. k. and for trade purposes in the u. single market, at the same time. complicated. yeah. but the aim was simple enough to prevent the hard border between the law and the irish republic and to protect the good friday agreement. my guest this week from county, antrim,

and northern ireland is sammy wilson, the u. p. chief whip the parliament in westminster. and he won't bat protocol scrat . you are the one who a year ago called for guerrilla warfare to destroy the protocol, didn't you? you stand by that. i do worse in less than 3 months. they'll be election to the northern ireland assembly with the d, u, p. won't say what we'll do, it loses the nationalist fame party. so the stability of the political institutions never that strong is once again on the line. what do the people make of it? what about business? and why b u. p. be meeting an umbrella group for loyalist paramilitaries when all parties pledge to see the back of all that and more unconquered. so tell me wilson, welcome to conflict zone. thank you. thanks for the invitation. let's look 1st. if

we may have the northern ireland protocol, which seems to be the main objective, your party's displeasure at the moment. if i can go that way, you've talked about the damage, it's doing to the integrity and sovereignty of the u. k. to northern ireland constitutional position. the peace process, the economy, in other words, a complete disaster, right. it is, and of course that's not just a shared by my party that's shared by the whole of the union of community and all of the parties which represent the unionist community. i think the, the, the most apparent damage to the citizens as the impact which it has on or economy. and secondly, of course, and this is much more important as far as i'm concerned, the damage which it does to the constitutional relationship between northern ireland and the rest of the countries which we belong. ok, would be economy. can we take the economy 1st? if it's such a disaster, how is it that the economic output of northern ireland reached

a 13 year high last summer? it's now an estimated 3 percent bigger than it was before cove. it the value of no, they're not as exports to the republic of all. it was almost 4000000000 euros last year. increase of 65 percent over 20. 20. was the damage to that? well, i think that the damage is, 1st of all, you've got to look at more than ours position relative to the rest of the country to which we belong at the that it kingdom has done. well, of course i have breaks up exports. ready have gone up quite substantially, kind of trade things and ordinarily course as an exporting region with them the united kingdom workers such a small local market. and secondly, of course, are pretty sure amounts of money pumped them to the north mound economy. as a result of the government's action against coven, and many business. and i've been with some business this morning. and they told me to call also the, the m m put reduction taxes grants, etc. that even with call with the don very well. the worry off the was all the

damage that you're talking about. i mean it, well it in fact we have a managing director of a firm and done. murray called brook vent on the outskirts of belfast. he says, wherever the job losses, where the factory closes, when the evidence to support this idea that the protocol as damaged or not, and he doesn't see it. well. and of course, one of the reasons why there are, there has not been a huge reduction on playing this because the united kingdom having left the has got higher growth than most other european countries. and we are now back to unemployment levels, which were pre coven levels. the damage the economy has been a number of ways. first of all, we have higher inflation and northern ireland because the cost of bringing goods and to north america has gone up fabric, 25 percent. secondly, many goods which used to be available tis are no longer available. companies are struggling with supply chines,

because companies in england have refused to supply to, nor mom to, to the increase pipper worked on the delays with customs check. and of course, that has meant to be either foods available has been reduced and end of individuals across northern ireland found it difficult to obtain goods without having customs to these, imposed on them. even though it was good, you're coming from other parts of the united kingdom. yet we have customs to these imposing goods which are coming in to another part of the united kingdom. where something can find that more onerous than the public. because at the end of last october, the regular pole from queens university, belfast showed a slim majority of voters, 52 percent agreeing or strongly agreeing that the protocol is on balance. a good thing for more than up from 43 percent into pose earlier in the year. so you're swimming against the tide here and you know, and they were not really against the item. you know, i think that sometimes people's attitudes towards the protocol,

how being affected by the abuse of many people, how that we should remain within the, the european union. the wilson talks are going on between the government and the you to try and out problems with implementing the protocol. you don't have much faith in these talks to you because of course, a has years some the years northern ireland, right? this will withdraw processed. they hope talked about the importance of protecting the single market, even though only 4 percent of the trade between goes to the european union. very small percentage, only 5 percent of the firms in northern ireland, at the trade with the irish republic. and so the chances of leakage and to the european single market from northern ireland were very, very remote. and then they were like me, you hear, but you seem to forget that the british governments fingerprints on every page of

that protocol, the government was forced into the protocol kicking and screaming. it signed it, sealed it, and hailed it of the one. the full achievement, didn't it? and i don't, i don't, in any way, try to move from the argument that the, you take off equal was equal liam for this because he doesn't have the, except the thing which has been put forward by european, you know, i'm somebody making the point that the european union has abused northern ireland to try and keep a foot in the door all the u. k. and one of the ways which have done that, of course, is through the protocol. and the fact if you look at all of the arguments which the make are dealing with the difficulties with the protocol this cause, it's easy if you would align more with our single market, lose a fuel lane with our customs roads, then you wouldn't have any type of copay, hundreds rules upside down and inside out is offered to have the customs paperwork, cut food checks by 80 percent. wasn't to take it or leave it off or it was the

basis for the concession. but you're dead against that. you were the one who a year ago called for guerrilla warfare to destroy the protocol, didn't you? you stand by that idea, of course. and i think that by the language which was deemed to be pretty century and some gordon i, i totally stand by line. we think that you should examine more closely the way in which european union, the hero problem, something accepting the words which they put on paper. let me give you some examples of this. the flex will attitude which the european union applies to checks coming into northern ireland. the supermarkets in northern which bring goods from gp are subject to the checks, yet they don't have one shock. and the irish republic to the good couldn't off be going empty. the irish republic or into the single market, yet you have so that they go to the full range of checks. if you look at some of the, the ludicrous ways in which the of applied the protocol, for example,

a firm in my constituency, which was construction work in scotland. how's it as habits vehicles turned away from the port alarm? because we're showing on the waves later. well, your, your efforts, mr. wilson, your efforts to declare the protocol unlawful have been thrown out by the bow tie court can't you can't, except that you've had your days in the courts. you've made repeated political and legal challenges. if you want to live in a country governed by law, you have to accept that, don't you? well, maybe if you'd let me finish the meet, you might not like the answer they give. but in one hand, you try to the fam, the attitude of the european union. and yet when i give you examples, happy examples of how the european union insists on checks being made for goods come in. when last week were demanding that any passengers coming from gp to northern ireland should be searched and kissed,

brought some which of them with them and to northern ireland. and so, you know, don't, don't tell me that the you are kind of be flexible. the you are using the people in north america for their own political and that is to try and on do practices and try to ensure that the u. k. has to align itself the ag regulations. otherwise, they say they will cut nor gnarled off for the rest of the month. i hear what they say i, i don't what i hear what you're saying that is interference and the internal affairs of the, the united kingdom. and i guarantee that no other european country would stand for that. if, if the you were to try and encourage separate movements and speak him or in germany or an employee or any other part of the united kingdom, those companies will be open arms apart. and that's why we are angry, by the way in which they're trying to split up the united kingdom. you've had your

day in court, you've had your repeated political, legal and challenges. if you want to live in a country, i come back to this question. you want to live in a country, come by law. at some point you have to accept this or does democracy mean only accepting the outcomes you like? well, again, we should check the facts for you asked the question. we hope that the courts has not been able to say some. the courts is simply given an end from the sation that on till will fax the kiss or hail them the, the checks must go on. that's what the judge. 7 course the judge has a record of being quite pro anyway, i was talking about june last year when you had the computational arguments brought before the court. that the breakfast withdrawal act conflicted with the $1800.00 acts of union that was thrown out. and that's not the decision of the court. that was a local court made up the decision made by him judge. she made the season regarding the checks only a couple of weeks ago. and i would say that there was a much

a political and put in that the system as her was a legal and put into the the fact of the matter is that the government, that self hasn't met a deep kiss and court was the change, the constitution of northern ireland by default, when it allowed checks to occur between northern ireland and g bait, the government said that the active union was actually imply of the change. and yet, it's oddly enough, the judge me to the face not active union have been chance even though the comment on legal argument was that it had chance back of union. that's why the p s. should not be considered. did. um maurice johnson lie to your party about the protocol. well he, he's a certainly, before he actually had the season himself made promises that he would do the things which teresa may done them conveniently because he needed to get

a withdrawal agreement. he accept the cm terms as treason a hadn't tried to push through the height of comment on which he was against. so yes, he did not. he and he was not truthful on this. and that's why we're saying he ny has an obligation. if he wants to keep the united kingdom together, if he wants to ensure that the people of northern ireland options differently from people in other parts united kingdom, he must them on day the protocol. and don't forget, i mean, you talk with breaking the law that breaking law, the protocol itself actually has probation for changes. we made the political declaration which accompany nathan, it's not revocable. you keep saying it's irrevocable, but it's not irrevocable. the northern protocol is it? no, no, it's not the piano to ever go. we are we, we have said that the protocol itself and the political declaration which accompanied look concert considered that there would and could be alternatives to.

and we are simply saying with government, make sure that those alternatives are applied under the dummy which is being done. tip is removed with terms of the protocol, allow the northern ireland assembly to provide consent for regulations. continuing in northern ireland, the 1st vote to take place for 4 years, 4 years after the end of the transition and every 4 years after that if passed by a simple majority. so what to revocable about that it's not when you go out in 3 years time, can't you and dissembling well 1st of all and again, i think you should check your fax on this one before you ask the question. because the terms of the north of the northern, the sound to set up on under the northern ireland act, which is a law helping broken. and they were broken when the protocol. busy was signed because that's booked in the assembly was meant to be across community booked. and that part that's the requirement for a cross community vote. the law and that has been removed has been broken in order

to make sure that there is no cross community consensus for. busy these arrangements, the fact that not one unions party and not support some beans that had the loss and had the good friday agreement stood and the legislature, which, which give effect to the good friday agreement, been put in place and kept and place them these rule. the northern protocol could never be brought into law. there is another good example of where the rule of law. busy has been subject to change by the northern protocol and by the you, by the you miss so often your tactics over the protocol on winning you much traction in the opinion. polls you coming up to shed, you know, the not in the sam elections in may. the lucid talk northern ireland track of poll run in the middle of last month, asked for people's preference 1st preference. if the elections were tomorrow shouldn't vein lead with 25 percent? the party was training on 17 percent. how are you proposing to narrow that gap?

well, i think the 1st of all, i would challenge alyssa talk full and indeed, all the posters, how me had very little of a simply because of the way it was conducted. it was conducted as a survey, which people could ring in to 3 or 4 times per day and just to the nurse, they're both on their opinion. so elusive book or i'm not sure actually reflects opinion, but nevertheless we do know that because of the impact of the protocol is had, there's a lot of disillusionment within the us community. and i think that we have got to, 1st of all, make it clear to the, you know, population that if they wish there to be continued opposition to the protocol, then they must fall for the party which has been consistently against the, which has actually provided alternatives. to that on which ever becomes a biggest party and the assembly after the next election will not implement the

jeffrey donaldson said a few days ago. it was time for the people of northern ireland to have their say. if that's true, then isn't it will so time for the d u p. to tell them exactly what it stands for and your party hasn't. it hasn't said whether it would nominate someone to serve as deputy 1st minister if she fail. when's the largest number of votes? so will you or won't you accept that if she fail? williams? well, i think 1st of all, no party and i can't think of any party either in the united kingdom or any other country. which speculate would pick hypothetical questions of late losing an election? we are going in this election when we are, we're going and confident that the union of people in northern ireland when fiercely the petty bigotry affect harry and beggars should be and will make the right decision and walked for us. so mean, why would be went on election with our hands dying, speculating the after the election we might have lost on what are we going to do in

the event, the being losing. we will often jack confidence to the people in northern ireland and to tell them we, we are to when we can, when with your support we well, when and the consequences of not when they are to put and p s a party of terrorists . they have abused the unions population not only physically, but also in terms of their culture, their history. and yet, the only so that you say that jeff jeffrey donaldson says it would present a real problem for union, for unionism, if shin fain wins what, what exactly is the problem taking part in a free and fair election and accepting the result is that is not a problem, no problem is the problem is that if shouldn't been, were to win the election and to be the biggest party, then you can be sure that the very 1st thing that demand would be at the stabilizing referendum on the future of northern ireland. once you have one

referendum of that nature, according to law, and you have to have one every 7 years. so you're down how the, the stabilizing effect of stumbling from one reference to another. i know that if there was or f for them, what we opinion should referendum tomorrow. 66 percent. the people who stayed remained with them the kingdom, the problem would be thus the politics would then be dominated in northern ireland as t. what happened to hardy, a change people's opinion, or where them died, coming up to the next rep ran a bit like this in scotland when the scottish nice was have one record and them, and lost the that they've been agitating for another on another. i'm scottish politics is night dominated by the issue of the panels from the kingdom, not the issues which affect people on a day to day basis like dealing with the ordinary problem for people want to deal with. and that's why jesse donaldson's right. that would be the stabilizing, that would be a distraction from the real problems which politicians should be thinking,

p address, but isn't it also the stabilizing family wilson, that the d u. p is currently trying to make up its mind whether it's actions, if she's saying wins, would be to collapse all sharing agreement. if you don't get the result you want to in the may, 5th elections is that right? shows the democratic process doesn't, don't know one again for you ask a question, maybe it would be better to actually look at what check the thongs and said jeffrey thompson means that the point that if the protocol. busy is not dealt with, then it will be impossible to resurrect the institutions for 2 reasons. first of all, if the institutions were resurrected, there'll be a requirement in law. the implement the protocol. we will not do that. so we will not have institutions which would implement protocol if we can stop them being put in a ben couldn't operation. and the 2nd reason why he said that is them to chase in some sales, given the divisiveness of the protocol,

could not possibly operate. you'd never get consensus, so you would never, you would simply have institutions where noticed patients would be near because the point of the protocol would prevent the, the operation and the smooth operation of the assembly. that was a context in which he said that. and i think that that's when the common sense when you look at it and that way, let's talk about the paramilitary groups in northern ireland as being some concern that. so jeffrey donaldson recently met a group representing loyalist paramilitary organizations. why the need to talk to such people? well, i think the 1st of all, if you don't speak to such people and try to convince them that there is a political solution to this problem that we are pursuing a political solution. then of course, you only convince people that the only way of dealing with this as a direct action on the states. i don't want to see that i look 340 years without more than ireland. so the aim was to talk them down from that. was it,

and i think that successfully on the young, don't forget people were predicting all kinds of sleep disorder over the summer. they were surprised that didn't happen. didn't happen is of the vaccinate just by accident that happened is result of attempts to convince those who may have been heard to go that route. that look, give the politicians a chance to transfer the site as well. the reasons why the and the u. k. government have a huge width of responsibility on their shoulders because of course, we're not the ones who complain about the change in the protocol. only the i'm you take often can do that and they ought to be aware of the very real danger where politics does not seem to work than there are. we will say will stand the site and we'll try and make our contribution with wilson. the fresh start agreement in 2015 committed among others, the northern ireland executive to bringing paramilitaries and to an end once and

for all what has to be done to fulfill that commitment. on december 2020, the independent reporting commission said it's a dereliction of duty on all of us to simply allow these organizations to rumble along in our communities engaging and coercive power and control. does your party accept to share responsibility for that their election of duty? no, because i don't think we have in their lesson or judy and not, and they danger on after criticizing the or, or the least impliedly, criticizing me for our party to promote these. we have a case with these and are all wrong constituencies. we have sought to try and ensure that rather than involve themselves and trying to create problems that they get involved and trying to improve their communities. we have even given substantial resources to grips which would be regardless and parting foster. our

previous leader was hugely concise for her and gaze with remotely subtract, divert them from criminal, and promote activities in the community activities. and it was up to the army and all of this on one hand, people say, what do you do about promote lease? and then when you go and talk to them directly to try and convince them that there are other ways in which they can make a positive contribution to saudi. get them for the talking. the terrorists, well, how far away are very from, from making that positive contribution. because the independent reporting commission said param, militarism in northern ireland remains a clear and present danger. and it cited $236.00 instances in the latest financial year where households reported being homeless due to paramilitary, intimidation, financial, extortion, sexual abuse, power, military style assaults. i mean, how long is this going to go on in nor the now how do you, how do you normalize that situation?

well, and i think you've also been recognized at that point right, that most of those activities were night carried by pyro miller, please have 9 moved on the organized crane. and every society course of mater, which is how you're talking, you'll have organized crane groups. the differences in northern ireland, some of those people had access to weapons, etc. they were able to still fear in the community and so did so here in the community. an argument as those who wished to change should be encouraged to change . and you should do your best to try get all them activities which are more positive and build up their community. those you're not prepared to change and should be treated as criminal gangs and be subject to the c, m. criminal investigations and sanctions, as you would have for triads or any other groups, drug dealing groups or whatever and other parts. or i'd, unfortunately,

we're out of time savvy. wilson, thanks very much for being on conflict. so thank you again. ah, ah ah, ah, with

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ah, ah. ah, business dw news ly, from berlin. frances was drawing its military mission from molly. the statement comes ahead of the rest summit of african union and european union leaders. the french withdrawal could have knock on effects for other foreign troop deployment in molly and the why the saw him. also on the program, russia publishes more images so forth. it says are the types returning from drills on the border with you credit. but us satellite images show more troops and equipment being deployed to that.