tv To the Point Deutsche Welle August 25, 2022 9:30pm-10:00pm CEST
the mediterranean lou, it's waters connect people of many cultures. seen almost rock and to far do korea drift along with exploring modern lifestyles. and that the terrain where has history left its traces, meeting regal, hearing their dreams. and to june this week, long d w, a rushes attack on ukraine has ended the lives of people throughout the region, driving a wedge between neighbors, friends, families, as the war reached the 6 month mark, ukrainians commemorated their national holiday, fear, defiance and sorrow over the absence of those who have departed in neighboring
russia, repression has intensified, can resistance survive. and what about in bella? rose proteins trusted ally, some would say vessel onto the coit we're asking that tragic triangle is put in destroy, and ukraine bells and russia with welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests. a katerina schulman is a political scientist and associate professor at the moscow school for the social and economic sciences, left russia in april to take up the fellowship at the robert bush stepped on here in germany. and it's a pleasure to welcome olga concierge that she is from ukraine. she's currently journalist and residence at the berlin social sciences center w. c. b. she's been overseeing reporting for the online use portal. 2014 for your
insurance. and also with us is bella russian freelance journalist and author, marina clay. she works with the german marshall fund and has written extensively about her homeland all the in his speech on ukraine's independence day. president soleski said ukraine is quote, a nation reborn. would you say that's true, and if so, what is new about ukraine since the war? yes, thank you for this question, because now i feel that way i united more than ever. and i can say that i didn't feel it before because we had to manage rabo money like 5 the inside our country and many different to position questions. but now i feel that we are united because we have a really big threat in front of us. and i believe that now we will have more time
for building some new version of your grant, some better wagon. because now we see you that we deserve. and to we can resist, even if they have a lack of dime, a lack of resources, even if they have some problems that like not to depend on us. but still, we have strong carly's and we have many opportunities to reach you goals. and i guess after this war, and i believe that it will be a victory of ukraine, and that will reach our goal of free ukraine and will liberate all the territories that now occupied by russia. so i guess that after that we will have a new, better ukraine that will show all the world that were managed and even if you have some obstacles you can overcome it. so yeah, i hope it will have
a great example of strong grandma kristen because before people like usually called us like young democracy and so on. but yeah, now i just have to come back to that point in a moment. it katerina as ukraine was commemorating it's independence day. russian police were arresting the one of the most vocal critics who still is in russian name the yet. anyhow, it's monday, one of the last, i think a position politicians remaining up lodge. exactly. and he was formerly mayor of you, catherine borg. he said as he was led away, i'm quoting, we know all there is to know about our country. this meaning his arrest is nothing new. how much do average russian citizens really know about the war itself and also about the level of repression in the country? since the beginning of the invasion about $7000.00 online resources were blocked by the russian authorities by the particular office. or are those comments or,
and this is just online. the most popular radio station in moscow echo of moscow was closed in the 1st day of march. as the only oppositional tv channel are to the rain stopped operating about the same time. so we should not underestimate the degree of control over the our information. here are television, all though declining in popularity and there's is, there has been an especially charm decline during the last 6 months. is teal number one source of information for an average citizen, especially want to be more specific for citizens, are aged above 50 wages or rather older than 55, which is also incidentally the main group of support for the things that are happening for any actions of the or to so there's this direct correlation between media consumption, a political position, political views,
and announcements are on the internet in youtube when telegram there certainly are accessed to alternative a points of view taylor, including of course, your own youtube channel. you have over a 1000000 viewers, as i understand subscribers. yes. so this may be the sign or not, not so much of my own progress and information source, but of the hunger for any sort of uh, alternative alternative information. yes, the man beneficiary is, has been you tube amps. telegram, it's interesting that russian authorities generous as they are with their bookings . i am closing down of media outlets. i yet weary of looking you tube a, which is immensely popular among among the people also for the non political content. so the answer to your question as to any question about russia is both yes and no. there's a scar city information available to those who would not seek it intentionally.
so if they just turn on t v or if they are open now their browser page and then the most popular 1st these will be and then they will not see any other point of view rather than official one. but if they choose to dive a little deeper than are there are certainly are saucers that can afford, do they have to use the v p n as in billions. the vpn consumption has increased 100 percent in since since february. so now it's, it's quite a household too, but i, i've been told that the authorities can trace vpn, use v p. a numbers, of course, are the numbers that people use to try to access the internet from if not open sources beyond their own countries. but i'm told that is traceable. i think wish and scare people over my thinking,
what's effort is may or may not deal so far. the use of the p on is not criminalized in russia, so people are using it. it's funny that's here in germany. i had to install the p. m that pretends that i'm accessing internet from russia because i need for my professional work, i need access to official sites like sites of the russian ministries. and these are books from here. one of the many paradoxes of this war, marina, let's let me ask you about a paradox. in bella. ruth, billy written president lucas jenko has of course, allowed his country's territory to be used by russia to stage it's war, including missile bases that have fired into ukraine. yet he congratulated ukraine on its independence day and said that he is convinced and again, i'm quoting, that today's contradictions will not destroy the centuries old foundation of good neighborly relations. is this pure cynicism on his part or does it indicate that there are limits to bela bruce's support for russia?
i guess it clearly indicates that there are limits to what you should take seriously. what's coming from the current bill or william, or from from, from the current bill of ocean and government and the president. there was this congratulation, one of the, one of their wordings was that he wished the peaceful skies to the king a nation and the ukrainians were se we're, we're writing that are in the afternoon or the shelling or all the pregnancy is where dan, from the village competitor and it's interesting that one of them, probably for me personally, they mazing thing that this war very clearly revealed is that i'm probably coming from there from this and a posterior background being born and possibly biller also gotten grown up there. and we also tend to think that we know our neighbors that were basically all the
same, the russians, the koreans, the bill at oceans more or less the same nations, a possible nations. but basically, the last 30 years, every country had it, had lived their own life and developed in different directions and ukraine. the koreans has never experienced. they also retire an, an old rule hand, the way it bill at oceans and russians it, they can not grasp it. why, bill, at oceans and russians are not out there in the street protesting i, i don't really so, and i mean, when they know that you've been and skates this, and bullion you're out, i mean, rationally the, know the cost of it that you will be in prison, but because an in ukraine for the last 30 years, it was possible to go out and protest and then below. and we'll talk about the young corvette, for example. it's also sometimes very terrifying to go out on st. sent to
protest and we saw it in 2014. so we're all saw. were came through this. so i guess we don't know exactly what you experienced like in russian. beller was. but we also believe that if it's like a large amount of people, it's like big crowd. you can't back everyone to out to suck. yeah. that's right. this is huge. crowds, fancy, yes. all mom. and i mean, at this claim approval or that of course they, the sufferings of bill at oceans and russians are, cannot in many remote way compared to what ukrainians are going to be, where they were, the bombings and shillings and people dying. but ah, it's on the situation where the protest is there, but it takes are the forms, it's in the underground as i don't know that that, that in the main saffo of minsk there will be an open window and there they are. and some of ukraine will be blasting out, people showing their attitude, but in
a very limited to what web possibilities that they have. and i want to come back to exactly that, but we have a short report and i'd like to take a closer look at life in all 3 countries. you can't crane russia and bella, bruce, sorrow, worry and fear co exist with the strange normality in all 3 as people go about their business. ah, everything seems normal here in the ukranian city of chroma tours. not far from the front line. we're so tired because of the war. meanwhile, a neighboring villa roost president lucas shanker was presenting himself as a caretaker. the opposition once powerful, languishes in exile or prison. no one dares rebel against the dictators unholy alliance with russian president vladimir putin who has a firm grip on his country. in moscow and st. your spirit,
everything seems normal. cafes and bars are full. only a courageous few still dare to openly criticize the war of aggression. meanwhile, in the siberian provinces where most soldiers are recruited families more and more and more fallen sons. but even in ukraine, critical voices are growing. protesters fear that as the war drags on democracy and the achievements of the orange revolution will fall by the wayside. can there be freedom for ukraine? only if there is also freedom for russia and bella bruce straight on to you. okay, it's a big one. yeah, i remember i like to ask, i said this. yeah, yes, it was her quite. but you know, i just yeah, we're all in the same are like informational space even if you now want to divide.
yeah. our culture and our common ecosystem event heritage. but anyway, like we like in soon stew each other. so any way we will need to get back to that dialogue, maybe after the war. maybe now where too emotional. even i like i listen to like, rushing him, use a great many russian books for example. yeah, i read the book that i guess that united this include a book about it is about the global decline of violence. yes. you know that my now ever, yes. the like boy, he thought that to, for like, a lost like 70 years with these degrees is the off some while on in the world. and that know that the countries almost never goes to war with shattered on february 24th, 2020 to hell. my experience in this, yes. so and even like some great,
so my and they were wrong. so that is why i didn't like say like may be a exactly what will happen next. but i guess that we all make something brilliant on our own are like way for example, i see many of the russian people who now joined some special regimes of ukrainian army. i see like russian people who helped us here like for example, are brought to like term and like even some, like a big scientist they like to find out to like, what does the democracy mean and now, but if you talk about your grant, it's a really nice that we have these changes of some over a public or a leader or a some like really big decisions. it's mean that something works. and also i can tell you that people and you grant their so critical to the power and they are so
light and sometimes angry with our official. so they are national. yeah, you know, tradition now to go on to the streets and to protest. so believe me, if something will happen, they will stop that and ski. but i also could explain you that, for example, our, you bring a constitution states that president of ukraine needed to bring this comment as the chief of an army, if something like happened. so that is why it's also, he's like direct decision and his own o needs to rule the country do such a or time. so it's not like auto to reason. it's just a matter of time and it's just to declare, declare it in our constitution. so she behavior like this because of her right, catalina, how firm is put in a grip or,
or report us the question. can there only be true freedom for ukraine if russia and bella roost are free? when could that day come? that's a good question. i, melinda, or question i would say, are so far are russian ruling a lead has demonstrated a certain degree of unity, the civic authorities, their financial authorities have demonstrated much higher competence than the military. once it's a kind of a paradox, that's the power that be released so much on security services and on the military that has done so badly on security services that have misinformed the president on such a grand way, while the much despised civic bureaucracy has continued to hold the country together to preserve the economy in the need so far the sanction storm asked. so this is, this is kind of kind of for kind of ironic. but at this point,
we must say that our russian power machine is, i can say competitively stable, but it is kind of preventing the collapse. ah, so it is possible still for an average russian to leave as if nothing much has happened. you managed to leave the country many, many others have left as well. does this brain drain of critics oppositional voices? does it help or hurt the opposition? i certainly helps the regime of by living out the necessity of a real wide, full scale repressive campaign. it has been in the nature of our political regime to push the critics to leave rather than to prevent them from living in the soviets or our german manner. so after february 24th,
it has accelerated, this exalt us has been tremendous. i have begun to realize it only i have a wife here myself. i've been much more fortunate than many others. i was not under any direct threat. so i came to basically to enjoy my fellowship. but many, many of my colleagues, my friends, are people who were teachers in the same universities that i taught in. they were obliged to leave because of all direct danger. and this is an extremely sad thing for, for the country in general. we can imagine that it's better for the opposition, for their positionally mind that rather to be at large down to be in prison. but it's sad and tragic to realize how many people educated people creative people have chosen to leave the country rather than to our remain. i can say that it in any way brings closer the of the times of freedom which you mention
and you know where it is, the opposition movement stand in bella russ. today we talked. 5 about or it was mentioned, the massive protests in 2020, after alexander lucas. franco. i was accused of manipulating the election. has the opposition been snuffed out since then? it, ma'am, it wouldn't be serious to talk about opposition inside the country at this point of time. i mean, what we've been observing in russia for the last half a year has been taking place in bella rose for, for 2 years now. since the end of the protests and they did this, this them the wave of repressions and rolled over the country. it has not stopped, it has never stopped. ah, as of yesterday, they have been 1300 political prisoners in bellows, for, for, for in terms of the of germany, it's 11500. so 11000
a political presence and 833-3000 arrest that that would make almost 300000 in germany in tell you people here in the proportion of numbers and 4500 people have been designated political prisoners by i'm in my old so and a rush is, let me remind you much logic country than bellows. so yes, i meet so many ah, bill. russian immigrants here in, if you creating were to actually succeed in winning the conflict with russia. would that also have a follow on effect for lucas ankle? ah, definitely yes. that, that, that to use the famous, not all of the of the bill at ocean and polish hero that those guys just for our freedom and yours. what ukrainians are. heroic lead, doing oldest for 6 months, a half a year. i mean,
the extra face of the war because the war started 80 years ago. they are then their struggle is not only to for better future ukraine, but also bill, our house and i rush. let me ask all of you and i want to come back to our title because our show is the car is running. we asked tragic triangle whether protein is destroying all 3 of your countries. and one of the most potent weapons that's being used in this conflict is of course nationalism. we saw it in the murder, now of the daughter of the ultra nationalist russian, that duke in daria do, you know, was murdered. apparently targeted attack at him. massive response by ultra nationalists in russia. would you say that this nationalism is poisoning the region and will go beyond the conflict itself? briefly, olga, if we talk about arc ukrainian k, so it's just,
it's irony because we don't have like a much, a larger group of national. this might be some organized people but where you know, like nationalists but they didn't reach even like the level that they needed for the parliament. so i guess we need to be careful with this problem. not only like who you're talking about are very general for 7th region on eastern europe, but you will also see that societies awful arise. and there are many like people with this nationalist view, but not in that way as like crossing propaganda. put it like on the table when they talk about ukraine, it kind of in, in russia ethnic nationalism also enjoys was a marginal, are support. so it's, it's an exotic the imperial type of nationalism is more understandable too broad the russian public. but this is also propagated by mostly by russian state to be once you turn, turn it off or change the time of them. this will also change ethnic nationalism.
what he call old time nationalism is not popular in russia. and we have seen our various examples of that if, if it's were eith would have enjoyed the renaissance in 2014. but this is not what happened. and i will say that and yes, yes, reconciliation efforts or dialogue on this tragic triangle. as you put that could only be feasible, and when the war ended, i don't think it's possible for the 3 nations to come to peacefully at the same table as we're doing now before and ukraine prevails. can you imagine ukraine actually winning this or a capital? aah! in post modern times, war and victory as defeats, od definable in very different ways. we have just mentioned that the war has been going on for years. so 8 years, hans, how will we define the war? well, when did it start and when, when the pound best case scenario,
the war and ukraine it winds up. what does it, ma'am, getting big crimea stopping graham problem? yeah we're, it's not a very best case. ah, this is not achievable by millions. i'm afraid i'm going to have to cut off our discussion right. fair. i'm so grateful to all of you for being with us here today . and i'm very glad to have all of you tune again. see you soon. mm hm. with ah, with
industry high and dry? focus on europe. in d, w ah. in music, 50 years ago, the international gathering of peace and cooperation becomes the scene of a horrible tragedy. arab terrorists, armed with sub machine guns, went to the head quarters of the israeli team and immediately killed one man. and that this will be the last time i saw him like our worst fears realized tonight. they're all gone. how i witness is experienced the terrible events and this the world shouldn't forget me the long shuttle, the 972 olympic massacre. stuart september 3rd on d. w. mm.
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ah, ah ah, this is dw news live from berlin tonight in the line of russian fire, ukraine's biggest nuclear power plant taken off lot. the separation nuclear power plant went off the grid, briefly cutting power to 1000, the plant, wyoming, russian. shelly that was too close to the reactors and the nuclear date. it remains also coming up tonight. the death toll mounting after a wash and walk into track on the ukrainian train station at least $26.00 people