hello, radio free europe/radio liberty viewers, today the program svoboda live is airing in an interview format, and we have as our guest diplomat oleg shamshur, ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary, and previously ambassador of ukraine to the united states and france. good evening to you, good evening. while preparing for our interview, i saw on the news feed. such news, the latest statement of hungarian prime minister viktor orban, who accuses the leadership of the european union of making impossible promises to ukraine regarding eu membership. he says: where are its borders, population escaped, we do not know how much there is and how much there will be, these are the words of the prime minister of hungary quoted by local hungarian media. of course, such a position of orban is not a surprise for us, but how to perceive this statement against the background of the positive news that we heard this morning about the readiness of the european union to open the first cluster of negotiations

with ukraine, and understand, this can be explained by several reasons, i think that the first is connected with the fact that the elections are approaching and orban's positions, well, i am not an expert in hungary, but it seems to me, more vulnerable, weaker than before, he needs to mobilize his electorate, possibly expand his base, and that's why he's throwing out such... things that he thinks will provide this support, firstly, secondly, we need to understand that orban feels self-confident, because he's, in principle, a leader of the type like trump, he's a person who enjoys trump's respect, in general, trumpists consider orban to be a role model, because within the borders of one country, albeit a small one, he managed to realize... their ideal,

that's why it gives him such self-confidence and, as he believes, probably the right to say things that are absolutely unacceptable in civilized communication, that is, in my opinion, these two reasons, the main one, and the second, well, i would say, as a kind of lubricant for these unreliable messages that you talked about to come out of orban. he also said that people in brussels are deceiving ukrainians. we have this quote, as he put it, now i suggest you listen to it. this is madness, we have to talk about it honestly. you can't fool a country that is fighting for its future, and the people brussels is being fooled, they are deceiving ukrainians, they are promising them something that is not possible. and how to be in this situation? in my opinion, this is quite cheap.

uh, a phrase, well, an attempt to look, well, as if a person who sympathizes with ukraine understands everything, he is a figure, well, of a minimal european scale, so he says that we must tell the truth, well , it is clear that such a truth is not the truth, and such statements only, let's say, complicate life, and i think that we must treat this calmly, it is clear that, as they say, we must oppose orban to fight, this is understandable to the european union, but how to take institutional measures in order to, for what, in order to remove a possible blockage, this is a big question, since it is necessary to adopt such institutional changes that, well, firstly, they violate the established order, although, it seems... which is also written in the fundamental

documents, secondly, changes must be made, and in order to make such changes, the consent of those political forces, those people against whom these changes are directed, is required, that is, to a certain extent, such a way out is closed circle, and, but certainly, the european union needs to look for a way out of the situation, because it is absolutely possible to imagine that this will not only happen and we will hear something similar that contradicts the principles of the european union from other figures in the future, and thus we need to look for an antidote, but how to do it, it is extremely difficult, but it must be done if the european union wants to move forward and wants to implement such ambitious projects, well, in particular in the field of defense and security. ukraine has in... case some opportunities,

unfortunately, i think we have practically no opportunity, well, obviously we need to, well, somehow react, talk to partners, and... but again, we need to do all this, well, i would say so, dosed and calibrated, considering that we have to deal with the same orban and fice and the adoption of decisions that are vitally important for ukraine depends on them. that is, if the european union does not find these levers of influence on the hungarian prime minister orban, then we will have to wait until, unless, the elections that will be held in hungary, and then maybe things will change the political situation and then already. well, we can talk about some more constructive steps towards joining the eu, which today seems to be in principle, i don't want to talk about the situation, here you need to have full information, and only those people who are negotiating with the eu on behalf of ukraine have it, but of course, well, you have to count on the elections,

on some other issues, if you imagine some positive evolution of trump, and we have seen some things that, let's say, that trump talked about, well, well, more or less favorable for us, orban should have taken this into account, but to imagine that we will see too positive dynamics from trump, to be honest, it is quite difficult for me, you mentioned another european leader, robert fitzo, the prime minister of slovakia, who also takes a rather anti-ukrainian position, and he demanded to postpone the vote on sanctions against russia, and now radio liberty, citing diplomats familiar with the discussion, reported that slovakia still refused to give its consent to this 18th package of sanctions, recently this has also been confirmed with reference to public sources, what to do with these, what to do with fico, will it be possible to break this

resistance? well, fico should probably be dealt with and approached in the same way as orban, well , so far this is such a mini-orban in... taking into account his experience and tenure and relations with trump, but he is absolutely a leader of the same type as orban, and until now, until the last one, he, in my opinion, behaved more cautiously, because for the reasons i mentioned, plus, as i understand it, we still need... support from the european union, infusions, well, just like orban needs them, and it affects him, he has been forced not to, until recently, deviate from the general line of the european union, because the receipt of

the necessary resources is questionable, well, although this is primarily due to the fact that decisions are being made in hungary that contradict the principles of the european union, that is... returning to fitz, yes, this is another unpleasant moment, and by the way, we must be prepared that neither fisa nor orban, this is not the end, given the strengthening of the position of right-wing radicals in almost all european countries, we can imagine that even from our, well, such reinforced concrete positive partners, we can hear things that we are now hearing from orban, if these countries are represented by people from the right spectrum, it looks like fantasy, but in my opinion, it is not fantasy, and in principle, such an option should be available,

well, let's say, we need to weigh this, we need to prepare for it, just the proposal of the allies regarding ukraine, let's talk further, the other day the nato summit was held in the hague, and it was interesting. you can tell by the headlines that appeared later in the western media, in particular the british edition of telegram came out with the headline that by calling trump tatusem, nato got what it wanted. this is a reference to when secretary general mark rutte called donald trump in a private correspondence, but the american president then published this correspondence on social networks, everyone was able to read it, and the secretary general then explained for a very long time why he called donald trump a daddy, but if we summarize what the journalists wrote, they say: about such frequent encounters with donald trump and about the fact that the allies tried to flatter and praise the american president, and it worked, the journalists write. i suggest you listen to how the publication describes it now. they turned high diplomacy

into the art of measured flattery. this summit in the hague was designed to serve one single purpose - to satisfy the desires, needs and whims of mr. trump. if mark rutsby agreed on their supply, if he thought that trump wanted to meet with beethoven, rutte would try to resurrect him. here are the results, do you think this strategy worked, it's just that, i really like british humor, very harsh, but true, well, how can i tell you, if we approach the assessment of the summit's overall results, then we need to give a balanced one, i always call for giving a realistic assessment, and not based on the fact that we... on very important, important, perhaps, a turning point for the modern

development of nato, regarding the increase in military spending, spending on increasing defense capabilities, up to 5%, what seemed like absolute fantasy a couple of months ago, has been done, it is absolutely correct, but at the same time we must remember that it is 10 years, that is, despite the fact that the same ryuti says that russia can... attack in 5 years, it also drew attention to the fact that there is no mechanism in that decision, the document that has been published, for controlling how this will be carried out, and some states, well, spain is open, and some other countries are not , but they are already saying that these goals will be difficult, well, maybe almost impossible, uh... to achieve, and therefore the question arises that this is a declaration, a very correct declaration,

but whether it will be implemented, there is absolutely no one hundred percent guarantee, it is clear that trump can be satisfied with the summit, because he really was a star, showed that he is the director of nato, yes, he imagines himself the director of the whole world, everything revolved around him, everything was done before him in order not to annoy trump, to get all the events within his, his attention span, that is, so that he doesn't start getting bored and saying and doing things that could disrupt the summit. the fate of the summit, well, to a large extent the fate of ukraine, depends on how trump perceives it, uncle. father, uncle, or how about his, aunt, not aunt, uh, and if

you look, by the way, carefully at the recording of the press conference, then, at the end, when daddy was talking about this, both his face, and hexet's face, and rubio's face were so contemptuous, squinting smiles, that is, i don't think that this behavior to such a degree of flattery was really productive, well, at the same time, we must admit that the summit was, well, let's say, successful, but successful against the background of very low expectations, that is, there is a mention there that russia is an enemy, but in principle , the way it is stated is much less, less strongly than it was stated in the vilnius and washington documents. there is a mention there, an important mention of support for ukraine, and

this is tied to an increase in defense spending, but again, we will see how it will be implemented, and again, the fact that ukraine is much less and much less decisive than it was in washington and vilnius, and by the way, this is where i would like to end this passage, we must also remember that it seems that... they agreed that at this summit in gaza a strategy, a nato strategy, regarding russia would be presented, this did not happen, and perhaps in this you can also see the desire, as i say, to try to communicate with putin from the last one not as a rival, as stated in the document, but as a partner. well, trump actually spoke positively about this summit during the press conference. he, he liked everything, well, sorry, but it would be strange if he didn't like it, everything is as he planned,

and the fact that there is this about ukraine, after all, and russia is an enemy, this is, well, in principle, well, probably the limit of a certain compromise on the part of trump, and everything else he managed, and plus, i didn't say that trump, known as a person who always, well, 100% respects, those things that he himself agreed on, this is the best example - the agreement second option of a commercial agreement between the countries. north america, canada, the usa and mexico. he said that this is a very bad agreement, it needs to be reworked, new tariffs introduced, despite the fact that this option, its initiator and negotiator, the author was himself. that is, here, it is also necessary to understand in what context all this was adopted, and what was the mood,

the mood of trump, if there was a mood to make him as happy as possible, and thanks to this... to minimize possible losses, well, in principle, then we must also pay tribute to the partners, so, our europeans, returning to this final communiqué, after the nato meeting, and this weakening of the position on ukraine, the reduction of mentions, does this mean that the partners ignored ukraine, or is this not quite so, because the expectations of the experts were more pessimistic, that is, what is now on paper is positive for ukraine, in the end, to ask the summit, if we proceed from those... alarming, underestimated assessments that existed, then we received and saw more than we expected and counted on, that is, this is positive, if compare it with what was before, well obviously it's not positive, well i don't want to use this word negatively, it's clearly not positive, but understanding

the context, obviously it was a certain compromise with the same trump and the people who prepared it on his behalf. final document, and again, i don't think that the main thing is what is written and how it is written, the main thing is what will be done, and now to all our partners, well the united states can be left, as they say, outside the framework now, if we take the europeans, it doesn't need to be, let's say, formulated some important, pleasant maxims, ideas, theses, some initiatives like... a stillborn coalition of the determined, but we really need to concentrate on those things that are now needed, well, as they say, absolutely in view of the critical situations, these are sanctions, and this is the issue of, regarding the supply of weapons to ukraine, that is,

we expect the europeans to mobilize their resources, plus find money to pay for american weapons and equipment, this is what we should concentrate on, well, actually in the context of arms supplies and us-ukraine relations , during donald trump's press conference, there was a question from ukrainian journalist myroslava peca about the sale of patriot air defense systems, this is a bbc ukraine journalist, and this moment when it seems that trump was so moved, at least it looked like this, i suggest that you also listen to this moment now and discuss it, i have my own opinion here, i am now. you, please, speak, speak, the lady in the white shirt, she is all so excited, bbc news ukraine, where are you from you? i'm from ukraine. well, my question to you is, is the us willing to sell patriot anti-missile systems to ukraine. we know that russia is shelling ukraine very heavily right now.

you live in ukraine now, my husband is there, wow , that's awesome, i'm in warsaw with the kids, i mean, because he wanted me to be there, your husband is a soldier, yes, he's there now, yes, well, it's tough, isn't it, and you live here, in warsaw, and you're a reporter, yes, okay, so let me tell you that the ukrainians really want to have anti-missile systems, as they call them, patriots. and we'll see if we can provide them. you know, they're very hard to get, we need them. we've supplied them to israel and they're very effective, 100% effective. it's hard to believe how effective they are. and they want them more than anything else, as you probably know. that's a very good question, and i wish you luck. i can see that this is very upsetting for you.

say hello to your husband. this dialogue was praised, mark it. on social media, what do you think? well , basically i would urge those who rush into such things, well, this shows the criticality of the situation when we are trying to find positives even where there are none, let's say what i would advise and consider necessary to pay attention to, firstly, there were two questions, one was a question, it seems , from an austrian journalist, regarding... well, finances for helping ukraine, and the second was a question from a journalist from the ukrainian edition of the bbc, and in both cases, trump actually... went off topic, as we say, that is, approximately, this is not a quote, we can say what he said, well, let's see, study how we they say we will study this issue, despite

the fact that this is absolutely neither the first nor the second, it is not new, hex said that aid to ukraine will be reduced, and it is even more clear that we are not talking about free aid, we are talking about the ability to buy or receive on credit, and even on these issues... trump evaded the answer, just as there was a question about ending the war in ukraine, he also stopped by and began to mention other conflicts that he supposedly either stopped or is about to stop - the indo-pakistani, congo, rwandan and so on, this is the first, second, i'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, and trump, of course, is an outstanding... communicator, but i have the impression that when he asked these questions to the journalist, he was calculated to catch her at some point, where is your husband

at the front, then he reorganized and said: it's very difficult, send greetings and so on, and if he heard that he was not at the front, he was somewhere, say, abroad, or doing something else, i'm almost sure that he would use it... in a completely different register, that is, the position trump regarding the supply of weapons to ukraine, this dialogue will not change or affect in any way, as i understand you correctly , i am in a rather pessimistic mood, although i am told that i am generally a pessimist, but i say that in principle i look at things realistically, that is, now the supply, i believe that the only possible option is the purchase of weapons, here i... a window of opportunity, but it is necessary that it is not just that we study it, but that it is a reality and there is also an understanding of how much ukraine needs it,

well, it seems to be there, but there is just an understanding, you heard trump, but there is no political will to do it, so with the understanding that he himself said how difficult the situation is in ukraine, and regarding sanctions, everything is clear here, they are looking for what rubio said there, what he said. here, he said everything absolutely clearly, now trump considers the imposition of additional sanctions against russia to be impossible and unnecessary, since it may complicate the peace process, that is, peaceful, peaceful negotiations, well, excuse me, yes, perhaps, this is how negotiations can be conducted being developer in new york, in international negotiations, negotiations , completely different laws apply and in... different methods are used, actually, how effective is this strategy, not to tighten sanctions, but to wait for russia to return to the negotiating table, which can change donald

trump's position on tightening sanctions? i am sure that now the key issue, not even the issue of a ceasefire in general, in general, now the main issue is to stop putin, this is for us and for our partners, and to stop him not where he wants, and where we can and where we need it, it will return, one of the factors that can return, force, or rather, not return, but force putin, to introduce, well, at least something that resembles negotiations, what is happening now in istanbul, this is not negotiations, this is one moment, and the second moment is the moment of sanctions, that is, we saw it at the press conference, in other speeches... trump is inflated, that is, he counted on putin to be more accommodating, and he, well, let's say, will contribute to the implementation

trump's plan, putin is not doing this, that is, i think that inside trump, as they say, everything is babbling about the situation, well, as they say, complete dissatisfaction, but in principle. and you should pay attention that putin's criticism remains, i would say, indulgent, it is not harsh criticism, and this is precisely why i said that he will cling to his plan to reformat relations with russia to the last, for which he needs to talk to putin as a partner, not as an adversary, despite what is written there in the nato document, and why, because he... wants to use russia to implement his plans for a complete reformatting, perhaps debunking the system of international relations, we know about the principles

that are legal for big... for small ones, he also expects to implement such, well, let's say, very illusory economic projects, and they say that his eldest son helps him in this, who is very interested in implementing these very projects, in particular in the arctic, and plus this illusion to try to pull russia away from china, at least for everyone already it is clear that this is no more than people think, that is why it affects trump's position. that is, you can theoretically imagine that he will finally, he will run out of patience, i will use sanctions, but for now it is just a possibility, and the reality is that , thank god, the sanctions that were imposed earlier are not being canceled, but new ones are not being imposed, despite the fact that now is a moment when the russian economy has finally shaken, that is, it can, if not finish it off, at least cause serious

damage to this military machine, but this... it is not done, considering how the united states of america is acting today, can we say that donald trump, represented by the white house, is engaged in a policy of peacemaking, because by the way, this is exactly the kind of reproach to the american president that the chairman of the parliamentary committee on international relations, servant of the people, deputy oleksandr mereshko, expressed, and withdrew his candidacy, which he submitted to trump for the nobel peace prize, well, first of all , to be honest, this is the first time i heard about this initiative, i was somehow, to put it mildly, taken aback, secondly, you can use different words and terms, but you really need to look at what we have in reality. everyone is talking about a ceasefire now. let's say they agreed, they've pissed off putin, made further progress impossible. he says, okay,

thinking that i also need... i need a breather. this is understandable for many. there is an agreement on a ceasefire, for 30 days, but i think that it will really be indefinite if it happens, and for some reason they've stopped talking about what happens next. if you look at all the plans that trump and his team are proposing, they are very close to putin's idea, well , it's clear that putin is extreme, there are these four regions. not only what has been occupied, but to completely withdraw troops and so on, this, as they say, is too much, in my opinion, even for trump, but in principle , what is proposed in this famous kellogg plan, what the us vice president said, well, in fact, this is a plan for the territorial division of ukraine, and i haven't heard anything else from trumpists, the creation of some kind of demilitarized zone, it is not known who

will patrol it, what will be its role? the united states relies on the europeans, and the europeans declare: "no, we will not do this, we will not." that is, in fact, this is the implementation of plans that are beneficial to division, and all those who put forward this, well, they seem to say that they understand, but it is not visible from their actions, it means, simply, because this will be the end of a certain stage of the war, then there will be the next stage, and in general we must also understand that the european... war, it is not in theory, it has already begun just as a global confrontation has begun in some directions, and war is simply possible again, if putin manages to implement at least part of his plan, a permanent european institution, you say that these conditions are beneficial for putin, and for the united states, how beneficial is it, why do they take such a position, are their economic interests, maybe, or what, here again i

even wrote about this when... when we look at trump and his policies, we must remember my conclusion that...