the market is going through with the debt crisis this wasn't 100 days or a year in the making. it was decades and if we don't get that right, these non-dollar assets are going to be a good place to put your money. liz: federated hermes was in that chair yesterday that said i don't like gold unless it creates cash. great to see you, rick thank you very much for coming on. you were right about going into ex-u.s. >> [closing bell ringing] liz: markets right now a struggle but larry kudlow is going to have the latest breaking news on exactly what's happening with the tax bill. larry: hello folks welcome to kudlow i'm larry kudlow. so, president trump wrecked south african president forcing him to watch video evidence of genocide plus the one big beautiful bill is coming on

the finish line and we'll have house ways and means chair jason smith and congresswoman claudia tenney on that in just a moment plus senator steve daines of the senate finance committee on what lies ahead in the upper chamber and growth will solve our problems. steve forbes, john carney, right here on set and finally, senator rand paul waiting in the wings to comment on pretty much everything. but first up, our own edward lawrence live at the white house. edward? rough meeting i understand. reporter: yeah, larry this is a very uncomfortable meeting with some uncomfortable subjects going on in the oval office. the meeting, the most uncomfortable for a world leader at the white house since that february meeting when president trump kicked president zelenskyy of ukraine out of the white house. now the president pressed the south african president about the killings of white african farmers and confiscation of their land and at one point

the president confronting a video of a political leader calling for the murders of white farmers with thousands of people cheering in the stadium. >> its got to be resolved and should be resolved and it's a little bit bad when you see a stadium with 100,000 people in it because that means that it's more than just a little movement. it's a pretty big movement in south africa so it has to be resolved. reporter: the south african president calling killings crimes and trying to turn conversation to what he really wanted. >> through growing the economy, we are then able to create more jobs, because crime really thrives where there is inequality and that is one of the reasons that has brought us here to improve our investment relations, our trade relations.

reporter: president trump wants south africa to move away from china, russia and iran as well as the other brics count ries as well as stopping the murders and now south africa president needs president trump to start sending the financial aid again which the president stopped last february because of those murders and they also made the pitch from south africa to get more u.s. technology coming into their country specifically mentioning the starlink services as elon musk was in the room there. back to you, larry? larry: edward lawrence, thanks very much. tough story but we appreciate the report. next up our own gerri willis here we go again a little bit of sell-off today. welcome back. gerri: thank you, larry stocks moving sharply lower after a disappointing treasury bond option accelerated a sell-off in the debt markets. at the close, the dow down 8 sa6 points, nasdaq off 270 and the dow fairing the worst here, unusual. the dow leading the way lower

for stocks and the bond market longer term treasury yields rose again with a 10-year yield approaching 4.6% and the 30-year treasury rate surging above five. at-issue a $16 billion auction of 20-year treasury bonds attracting relatively soft demand from investors. the sell-off and stocks followed earnings reports from target, lowe's and tjx with target cutting its annual outlook flagging softer discretionary spending and decline in consumer confidence. tj maxx reaffirming its outlook on the provision u.s. china tariffs hold at present levels. all of this as gold continues to run higher and oil fell. larry back to you. larry: gerri willis thank you very, very much. now let's head over to capitol hill, we've got even more, fox news chad pergram as always he joins us live. chad what is the latest on one big beautiful bill? reporter: well larry, there's a risk of republicans sinking

the president's big beautiful bill if the gop had the votes they would not call in the president. the freedom caucus is now at the white house, conservatives are upset that the gop brass cut a deal over salt. that's the tax break for high tax states. >> an agreement has been reached by the new yorkers, and so forth. we have not reached our agreement yet. that's the way this is. both ends of the spectrum in the republican conference have been negotiating and that's where we are today. reporter: the white house fired a warning shot toward those who might cross president trump. the white house says the president wants this version of the bill adding, "failure to pass this bill be the ultimate betrayal." some conservatives are not happy but they will not blow up the bill. >> i can live with it. i wasn't happy about it. i'm not going to vote no because of it because there's many broader things at stake here.

we've got another three and a half years to execute on this reconciliation and add to it and enhance to it and save money. reporter: it's about the math. the gop can only lose three votes and still pass the bill. democrats say if the bill fails, it's on republicans. democrats say they could have helped. >> if republicans want another vote, we could have negotiated a better deal on the snap benefits and could have gotten a bipartisan bill that might have been able to make its way to the president's desk that reflected our values. reporter: now the rules committee began prepping the bill at 1:00 a.m. today. they are waiting for house speaker mike johnson to introduce changes to coax members to vote yes. the gop risks losing votes if they do not move fast. larry? larry: thanks very much, chad pergram, as always. all right, now the deficit

panicans need to stop fearmongering and learn to love growth and that's the subject of this rif. while republicans on capitol hill work towards passing president trump's one big beautiful bill, with work and investment tax cut incentives along with significant deregulation and depreciation bonuses for equipment and factories, you hear a lot of talk from liberals that the legislation is going to cause high budget deficits which in turn will crowd out investment and drive up interest rates and actually depress economic growth. well, we've heard the same exact fearmongering during the jfk tax cuts during the reagan tax cuts, during the bill clinton tax cuts, and of course president trump's first term tax cuts. none of the fears ever panned out. actually, the debate is the so-called link between budget deficits and interest

rates. now, models from the congressional budget office and the pen watter on model both argue that bigger deficits create higher interest rates. sorry. they are wrong. actually, a very good case could be made for the inverse, the opposite, that higher deficits actually lead to lower interest rates and lower deficits lead to higher interest rates. so how is this possible? well, stay with me on it. larger deficits come from weak or even recessionary economic growth. that triggers automatic spending stabilizers in the budget and it also sinks revenues from higher unemployment and falling corporate profits and fewer people working. now, on the other hand, strong economic growth reduces the demand for budget assistance

programs and it increases revenues as more people work and businesses deliver higher profits. now it's quite true that today, we have high budget deficits and the federal debt to gdp ratio is about 100%, yeah, but if you go back to the 1970s, the debt to gdp ratio was at nearly an all-time low of about 25%, but wait a minute, that was during a terrible economy with repeated recessions, and hyperinflation, and skyrocketing interest rates under nixon, ford, and carter. so be careful what you wish for. now let's turn to a longer historical perspective. from 1947 to the year 2000 that's over 50 years, the u.s. economy grew at around 3.5%, per year. now, over the past 25 years,

economic growth slowed to only 2.5% per year, so, we have larger deficits and more debt but it's because the economy slowed so much and you can look at specific periods. for example, during the reagan recovery years, real gdp increased roughly 5% per year, but interest rates were much higher, averaging close to 10% on the bellweather 10-year treasury bond, that's right they average 10%, during bill clinton's second term, aided by the gingrich congress, real growth averaged 4.4% but the 10-year bond averaged 6%. today's 10-year is about 4.5%, much lower than the clinton years or the reagan years when growth then was a lot higher than it is now. during the clinton years by the way, deficits shrank.

the budget was nearly balanced but interest rates remain relatively high. i think there are two reasons for this and for today's high dhighdef sits and debt. first of all economic growth has slowed during the past 25 years as i said. second, we've had two terms of the very liberal obama administration, we've had covid, and then one term of an even more liberal, biden administration. so while economic growth was slowing, and the automatic spending stabilizers kicked in, but on top of that, there were massive increases in en titlements and those clinton/gingrich welfare to workfare reforms was changed to workfare out, welfare in. all i'm pointing out here is that there's no reason to assume that tax cuts will lead to deficits that will necessarily drive up interest rates. i would argue growthier tax cuts

will keep short rates and inflation low while long rates are going to be about steady. even more, i would argue that a return to 3.5% growth rather than the under 2% estimates from cbo, that will go a long way towards reducing all the ratios, spending to gdp, deficits to gdp, debt to gdp, they will all move lower which is a very good thing. in other words, put the fearmongering aside. let economic growth solve our problems, and that's the rif. all right got that? anyway, joining us now we've got chairs of the ways and means committee mr. jason smith from the great state of missouri and if that weren't enough we have new york congresswoman claudia tenney, a member of the house ways and means committee, so she's got to be very careful, because she's standing here with her punitive boss. anyway, it's very kind of both of you to come on the show.

chairman jason smith? where do things stand now? give me your best pitch for getting this bill through, please, sir. >> larry, first off, failure is not an option. we're going to get this bill through this week. hopefully tonight. the problem that we have right before us is the democrats are filibustering in the rules committee and have been doing that since 1:00 a.m. this morning, and we're just going to keep driving through, but we're going to deliver this win for the american people. we have to have this pro-growth tax bill pass and be signed into law and hopefully by july 4. larry: you know, claudia, on that point, look, i'm just going to argue i'm very stubborn, i'm an old supply sider, started a long time ago under president reagan. growth will bring down spending. growth will bring down deficits. growth will bring down debt and all of those ratios will come down and we'll all live happily ever after and i don't want, you

know, i understand we want to restore the work fair requirements. i like that stuff a lot but we've got to have growth and to me the best way to get that growth is lower taxes and deregulation and that's in the reconciliation bill and that's why we have to do this darn thing. just get this thing done. growth will solve all of these problems. >> well, larry, we know this works because this is what we did in 2017. you had unprecedented growth and the largest amount of revenue coming into the united states treasury than we've ever seen coming from overseas and we had the retate are asian tax part of the benefit that was part of the first tax cuts and jobs act i was here to vote for and now we're seeing that same thing. we're going to energizing growth using obviously explosive growth in the energy sector and a.i. and data centers and all those things that give us a competitive edge and we'll be cutting fraud, abuse and waste so encouraging people to get back to work because if we're bringing our supply chains back, we're going to need people to get to work to create

the productivity to get that growth that we're looking for and that's the way to get out of the mess we're in and that's how we'll see gdp growth and everything else across-the-board happen and by the way, this bill targets small business owners, and small businesses that drive our economy and 99% of the people that go to work in my district and upstate new york go to a small business so this is key and everything that jason and great jason smith whose done a wonderful job shepherding this through a very, very difficult process for a couple of years this has got to happen and so important for the american people and our districts. larry: well look chairman's got, if i understand it right, the small business deduction goes from 20 to 23% which is good, and you've got a corporate tax rate made in america that will effectively come in around 15%. i'd rather you had a bracket there but i'll take what i can take at the moment. chairman smith, let me just ask you. why do people, or maybe your

rebuttal. everybody is saying this budget is going to increase the budget deficit by $3 trillion over 10 years. i've been looking at cbo baselines and i do not see this $3 trillion increase in the budget deficit that people keep talking about. what is this all about? can you set us right? >> larry, i totally agree with you. the issue that we have is of course the congressional budget keepers are saying just extending current tax policy, that's trump's expiring tax provisions, just extending that will cost 3.75 trillion to the deficit. that's where they are getting this number, but as you stated, we don't have a revenue problem in this country. we have a spending problem. if you look at how revenue compares to gdp over the last 50 years its averaged at 17% but if you look at spending over

the last prior 45 years excluding the most recent five, spending towards gdp, 20%. however the last five years, larry, spending to gdp is 26%. we have a spending problem not a revenue problem so that's what you're seeing those numbers from is just by current extension of current tax policy when our revenues right now to gdp is 17.2%. larry: you know, mr. chairman, i looked at this , just the levels, okay? well i'll start with 2017. the original bill was passed in 2017. basically, all federal tax revenues, this is from the cbo historical tables. basically moved in fits and starts from a little over $3 trillion to nearly $4 trillion to most recently almost $5 trillion. now, i ask you, if over the past seven years, you've moved from

3 trillion to 5 trillion, that's the same seven-year period where we had the trump tax cuts. how is it possible that ending them will make revenues go up? i mean, keeping the rates low got revenues to go up. i don't understand how you can, as a matter of common sense, say that extending the tax cuts will lose revenues when keeping the tax cuts over seven years, you've had an increase of $2 trillion in revenues. i don't understand that. >> you're exactly right, larry. what is also important to note that if you look at the scoring from the original 2017 trump tax cuts, which you helped with, just the revenues that they have projected over the last seven years, they were off by $1.6 trillion that we brought additional revenues above what they scored and they said that bill would cost us 1.5 trillion. the bill you have before us that we will be delivering on

the president's desk is the most pro-growth tax bill that even the council of economic advisors have said that the gdp over the first couple of years could rise as high as 5.2%. larry: you know what, claudia, on that point and i know both of you are very, very busy but on that point steve myron was on the show last night. if you get back to 3.5% growth like for 50 years after world war ii, we had 3.5% growth at an annual rate. if you got back to that and as you pointed out before, you've got all this advanced technology, you've got artificial intelligence, things that boost productivity, plus you're going to have a renewal of the tax cuts, plus more pro-growth tax cuts and deregulation. if you get back to 3.5% you'll pick up more than 2 trillion in revenues over the next 10 years, claudia, and that is going to basically end the deficit, okay?

how about those apples? that should be the goal. growth will solve all of these problems. i know you can't pencil it in but if you did, if you just close your eyes and if you never looked at the congressional budget office, if you never read a newspaper that quoted the congressional budget office and you just plugged in 3.5% growth which america did after world war ii for 53 years you'd solve the deficit completely and probably make somebody happy some place. how about that? 3.5% growth, claudia. >> i agree, larry this is the whole problem is the congressional budget office is almost always wrong. they said the inflation reduction act would reduce inflation and it raised it by $1.6 trillion or roughly that number so we see the growth coming and we know the american people are excited about this and they get back to work and we just are waiting for this to happen. we've got to get it passed the chairman has been working day and night with the trump administration and president trump came into our caucus

yesterday and spoke with members and talked about how important it is for us to stick together and get this done. it's going to be a huge win for the american people, and i can't emphasize how important it is to get it done quickly. the sooner we get this done the sooner we'll see the growth and all of the good things for the american people to experience and realize, especially again, middle and lower income taxpayers are small businesses are driving this. this is going to be so critically important, larry and we want to get it done right away. july 4 is the best day to get this done and it's a wonderful celebration for all americans. larry: you're both very kind to come on. we appreciate it, we know busy chairman jason smith and claudia tenney from upstate new york the best of the best. thanks to you both appreciate it. folks coming up what lies ahead for the senate on the president trump's one big beautiful bill well we'll ask senate finance committee member mr. steve daines next up, by the way, from the great state of montana, where saintly wife and i were married and remember folks you can catch kudlow monday through friday at 4:00 p.m. every day

right here on fabulous fox business, and for some reason you can't get us at 4:00 text your favorite 9-year-old and she will show you how to dvr the show, and you will never miss a bit of economic growth. i'm kudlow, we'll be right back. every small business owner has a monster to-do list. and as your business grows, it grows. ♪♪ that's fair. progressive makes it easy to get a quick commercial auto quote online, so you can get back to all your other to-dos. see if you can save money at progressivecommercial.com.

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larry: what's next up for the senate regarding the president's one big beautiful bill? joining us now, from the great state of montana, a member of the senate finance committee, mr. steve daines himself. senator daines, welcome, sir. we appreciate your time. can you build in even bigger tax cuts or spending cuts? can you build in a bigger growth estimate? tell us about what you're thinking, please. >> larry, once we receive the big beautiful bill from the house, we've got some ideas in the senate that's going to make it even more beautiful and tell you what one of those important revisions are. we need to take the capital and r & d provisions that allow for immediate expensing that currently are just for four years in the house bill and make those permanent. as you said, listening to your interview with jason and

claudia, is that the reason we do tax policy, it's a means that's not the end. the end is growth and economic growth and it's global competitiveness. if we take capital and r & d and allow businesses to immediately expense it, it incentive sizes more capital investment and more r&d investment and that's key for competitiveness on r&d but it's key for growing this economy certainly on capital but make that permanent. one of the challenges we face is the uncertainty of the tax code in washington. why do you want to have a four-year cliff where it goes four years and ends? we don't want to place bets on congress getting it extended. let's make it permanent. if there's one thing we could have done better back in 2017, i remember working directly with you, we passed a great bill that ignited the economy and we saw record economic growth, lower unemployment, wages raising for all americans, is that we didn't make the tax cuts for pass-throughs permanent. let's not make that mistake

again and let's take the uncertainty of the equation out by making it permanent. that's what we plan to do when the house bill comes to the senate. larry: music to my ears senator da i'mnes. related to that, for made in america, goods, can you actually create a 15% corporate bracket? rather than deduction your way into it, can you just have that straight flat rate, marginal rate rather than deductions? >> well, we've looked at a lot of different ideas and i think there's a balance here, larry, about not doing too much surgery on the house bill because speaker johnson is like moses pulling off miracles splitting the red sea. we want to be judicious and focused about what we change in the bill but i know we've got a lot of reception from members in the house including jason smith and the speaker himself saying this is a good thing to make these provisions talking about r&d and capex expensing but

look, by expensing capital, immediately, that is a pretty great incentive for more investing in america and manufacturing in america so i think that's a pretty big lever to throw particularly if you extend it over 10 years to make it permanent that's a great way when playing the long game because we're doing more manufacturing in america. larry: factories too, senator daines? >> yes. larry: so that be absolutely fabulous if you made that immediate expensing and you made it permanent that's absolutely fabulous. listen, can you and the chairman, can you plug in a higher growth rate? can you put in a 3% growth rate? >> well, look. this is looking at this nonsense that comes out from the cbo. the congressional budget office. i call it the congressional plunder office. the problem is they have been very way off on their forecast like they did back in 2017 where they were off by $1.5 trillion

in revenues because they don't factor in the dynamic nature of these tax policies when you continue to lower taxes you ignite economic growth and increase revenues. it's right out of the ronald reagan, jack kemp, john f. kennedy, art laffer supply side argument and that's exactly what we are doing and that's why these cbo numbers should be disregarded because they don't factor in dynamic scoring and additional revenues as we saw happening in 2017. this is proven, larry. this is not even hypothetical. they missed it in 2017. they are missing it again here in 2025. larry: great stuff, senator daines we appreciate it very much and we know everyone is busy up there. thank you, sir we appreciate it. talk soon. folks, coming up, again, take a lead from senator daines, growth can solve our problems and we'll talk that with steve forbes and john carney right here on set when kudlow returns and remember

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♪ larry: all right growth will solve our problems and be careful what you wish for when talking about these fiscal issues joining me steve forbes chair and editor in chief and john carney, co-author of the daily breitbart business digest. welcome, gentlemen. so, john? i'll just start with you. people are telling me deficits cause rates to go higher. i'm just saying, it's the reverse. deficits are primarily a function of the economy. recession or recovery and interest rates, if the economy is booming, real interest rates are going to go up.

the rate of return on capital goes up, and if the economy is in the tank, then that goes down. it's nothing all these models that are accusing higher interest rates or predicting higher interest rates because of deficits are wrong. they are just completely wrong and have always wrong. >> they are really wrong and they get it, they are pretty toxic to the budget process because in the end what they mean is any time you propose to cut taxes, they will tell you that the deficit is going to rise and interest rates rise and therefore, the economy will slow. so the end result is they always say that the opposite of the truth which is tax cuts will slow the economy through the mechanism of higher rates. history proves that's completely backwards, and as you said, really a huge part of the deficit going up or down, is just a function of whether the economy is growing or not. and in the cbo model it's backwards. they say the economy will slow and deficits will rise. it's really the reverse. we saw just recently during covid. the economy comes to a crash

because we lock everything down, so deficits go higher. that's what happens time and again. larry: and interest rates plunge. and then they start pouring all this money in, and the economy went up and interest rates went back up. we've always been, all i'm saying is put that model aside. it's a phony model. just cut the taxes and deregulate and a lot of good things will happen. you ran for president on the flat tax a couple of times. you were the principal growth proponent running for president. it's the legacy overgang kemp, and ronald reagan and what donald trump is trying to do this time around. >> and you wrote a book on how kennedy evolved to get the economy growing after the recessions in the 1950s he came in and started with business tax cuts. larry: that's correct. you're right. it was depreciation for bonus credit. then he cut the marginal rate. i'm saying let trump do it again now. if you listen to steve daines in

the senate they might make the bill even better because the 100% depreciation including factories would kick in right away. not wait four years. >> and stop this exploration dates like it's milk in the supermarket for crying out loud and make it permanent. doesn't mean you can't change as circumstances change and on the whole thing on the blue state friends getting all caught up on salt. state and local tax deductions. why don't we discuss this? why don't you just cut the two rates that affect people most the 22 and 24, cut it to 15 and end up with more and have the incentive to earn more. good for the economy instead of raising it 30, 40,000 and phasing it out and all that junk make it sick people and more effective. larry: why do i want to give kathy e hochul the governor of w york, more incentive to raise my taxes. >> and less incentive for republicans to lower the taxes by the way. larry: i don't understand the logic of this. john?

the other thing is you have, the models, they really don't tell us exactly what's in the models. i think that's -- >> secret and a scandal we can't know especially because congress gives so much power to the cbo. they say well we can only pass this bill if the cbo scores it a certain way as reducing the deficit over 10 years. it's nuts in a democratic process to have a secret model that you and i can't look at and decide what's wrong with it. decide the outcome of the legislative process and the tax rates for the united states. they should first of all they should force the cbo to tell everybody. right now we're in an age where you put the stuff on the internet and we play with the numbers and see how it works and at the very least they should release three different reads so the cbo says look under our traditional model here is where we come and under a more aggremore aggressive modeld

the carney/forbes kudlow model this is where it comes in and that be very useful instead we're being asked to trust what they say rather than being able to va evaluate it. >> make it even simpler send them on a vacation, north korea all expenses paid and bring in people that actually understand the economy. larry: one thing is, okay i'm surprised and i'm going to, i'll talk to rand paul about it coming up next, but i think we have to work on this in the next few shows. why don't they do something about the cbo. you have republican house, senate, republican president. it's obviously time for big changes at the cbo. you should put in people, i say, with a different economic model and more transparency as john says you could have interactive modeling we do that with so many other things, on the internet. why not? it's not so much getting rid, the budget reform act of

1974 stipulates a congressional budget arm. okay, fine but this one has underperformed for a long, long time so why not make a change? >> should have done in the mid 90s when he first got control of the house and senate and it never was done. they just left it there and it's very anti-democratic and it says in effect we don't trust you. therefore, we have to put these limitations in because we don't trust you. they don't trust the people. larry: one thing, i know it's not the first time i've said this , i do want to know, there is no permanent inspector general at the federal reserve board, it's a temporary, hired by, wait for it, jay powell. so, they're building a taj mahal on c street, 2.5 billion, may not be the final number and they are i believe 700 million over budget. >> they are. larry: yup. their bond portfolio has caused them huge losses in recent years

and mismanagement of the bond portfolio, and they don't have any money to turn over to the treasury or the taxpayer regarding their profits because they are losing money. how can we let this stand? i'm not even talking about the monetary policy. i'm talking about the management of the federal reserve. >> and look, they have so many economists on staff and when you look at the projections based on those economists, they are always wrong, so what are they doing? why do we have a thousand phd's in the federal reserve if the policymakers are giving such bad advice all their projections are wrong. larry: did elon musk, any of his team go into the fed? >> they tried and the fed said no from what i've been told. i advocated putting doge permanently into that fed building, like make them share it with doge, but i think that they were told, just like by the way, they tried to go into the cbo, and they were told no.

they said you can not come in here. larry: i didn't know that. >> i think the fed also said no, we're independent and not allowing you to come here. larry: time for a change. they won't let their models be transparent either. >> no. larry: that's why they are building the taj mahal. >> dallas in 1980s, depressed real estate market, plenty of commercial space they needed more space what did they do? build another mini taj mahal in dallas. larry: i'm telling you, it's simple, i'm getting overheated about it. cut taxes, grow the economy, just take the rip. don't worry about all these little things here and there. make it as simple as possible. >> that's right. what you said is very important is we shouldn't worry when you're deciding the tax rate you should decide what is the right tax rate to grow the economy, not worry about some 10-year budget projection you can't know because you don't know what

the exoginous influences are, you don't know whether you'll have a recession, pandemic or war so ignore the 10-year budget window and figure out what grows the economy. larry: thank you. steve forbes, john carney, appreciate it very much. coming up, president trump wrecked south africa's president ramafosa had earlier today. it was some dressing down about genocide and white racism and about killing white farmers in south africa, so we will talk about that and some other things, with senator rand paul, up next, here on kudlow. ♪ in any business, you ride the line between numbers and people. what's right for the business and what's best for everyone who depends on it. solving today's challenges

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larry: we love him so much, steve forbes and breitbart john carney are back and it's a great pleasure. so steve forbes, this is drawing blood from a rock, but the kudlow nec in the first term worked very hard to get these spectrum auctions and raise some pretty good money. i think we raised about $100 billion, and i don't know what they budgeted of 100-$200 billion and now none of that is in these cbo estimates. >> no and i think

the president's favor of going to the pentagon saying you're sitting on too much of this spectrum, put it up for auction don't give it out to a favorite company and you waste tens of billions of dollars and give us a leg up on getting the most out of 5g and 6g. larry: two years it took me, just for one, one of their spectrums, because they always, the pentagon is impossible and mark meadows who was chief staff at the end that was a great help to me, giving credit where credit is due, the defense department never wants to give an inch of spectrum away. >> it's very bureaucratic but we need the money and they don't need all that spectrum. larry: with 5g and 6g operations. >> and help us with the budget that there's so many things not counting in the budget because it's not legislative so it doesn't show up in the cbo estimate so there's no spectrum money, there's no tariff money, so they are really underestimating how much money the government is going to be

taking in. now i admit it's hard to project what the tariff is going to be because we don't know exactly what the rates are going to be but it's not going to be zero. it's going to be higher than its been in the past. larry: at least 100 billion, could be a couple hundred billion. >> going to be a couple hundred billion. larry: fellows, we have senator rand paul coming on. steve forbes thank you very, very much john carney thank you very much now let us bring in the great kentucky senator rand paul, senator paul, welcome, sir. >> thank you. larry: we were talking about stuff that cbo, i don't think you're a big fan of the congressional budget office. not only do they not know how to add and subtract and deal with tax cuts, but they don't put stuff in. i mean, american businesses doing perhaps trillions of dollars with middle eastern countries and president trump's successful trip. spectrum auctions, tariff revenues, i know you don't like tariff but there's money coming in. what's wrong with

the congressional budget office? why don't you get rid of that or at least change it? >> first of all you're giving them too much credit. i would call them government bean counters based on government rules not market rules. they have never heard of economic growth. they don't know of any kind of dynamic nature. they have never heard of the art laffer curve. they don't know that you can reduce taxes and actually get more tax revenue so yeah, there's not a lot not to like about the congressional budget office. larry: i agree with all of the above. i don't know why we don't get major changes in it. you've got republican house. >> we're in charge, you'd think it's called the congressional budget office. you'd think we would do something but congress has not really stepped up to the plate. we should reform it. it would take 60 votes in the senate and that is a limitation but both sides ought to be up to making sure the accounting is honest and not used to distraction that hampers our ability to move forward. larry: senator we're a little short of time but i just want to

get your quick take. look, the south african president was in today. they are conducting racist policies, violent policies, his political party wants to kill white farmers and they have the land. trump gave him a pretty good thumping. what does senator rand paul think about all this? >> i've watched this for a decade or more of what's happened to people who have been in africa for hundreds of years and some people think these are white settlers and they got think like 500 years ago and they have been in south africa for 250 more years then people have been in north american continent, a long time and it's sad to see the last remnants of people who this is the only home they have ever known from lawlessness. larry: i'm sorry, sir we're out of time. i hope you'll come back so we can continue this and some other conversations, senator rand paul appreciate it very much. p sayin, you mastered it! you fixed it!

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larry: so, look, we need those tax cuts for growth, but if the vote doesn't go up down tonight or tomorrow, speaker johnson says he's going to keep them through the memorial day weekend, and he is surely right. liz macdonald and i will take e it off, but the republicans have to work with. elizabeth: they sure do. thank you so much, larry. welcome the "the evening edit," i'm elizabeth macdonald. >> president trump, how are you feeling, sir, about your bigger beautiful bill today? >> very well, we're doing very well. >> the guys, on the othe