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tv   The Five  FOX News  December 4, 2011 2:00am-3:00am PST

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the forum, governor huck could you be and the attorneys general are with us. >> where is michelle parker? >> i want my daughter back more than anything in this [bleep] world. >> and why was her ex-boyfriend, a violent abuser and the prime suspect in her disappearance. >> criminal history dates back years. >> just awarded custody of their two kids. and a border patrol agent gunned down by illegals on the mexican border. the white house seals the investigation. but thousand there is a shocker. the murder weapon supplied by our own government. >> i cannot be expected to know the details of every operation. >> operation fast and furious.
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who is to blame and what are they hiding? >> that's coming up tonight on "justice." >> this is a fox news alert. i'm judge jeaninepiero. after speculation of a 13-year affair, herman cain suspends his presidential campaign. >> i am at peace with my god. i am at peace with my wife. and she is at peace with me. and so today with a lot of prayer and soul searching i am
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suspending my presidential campaign. i am not going to be solace, and i am not going away. i will still be promoting the biggest change and transfer of power out of washington, d.c. back to the people since this nation began. i will tell you right now, it will not be the current occupant of the white house. >> republican strategist brad blakeman joins us from washington. thank you for being with us, brad. the first question, who benefits the most from cain suspending his campaign. >> i think newt gingrich will certainly benefit, but i also think mitt romney can benefit. those who like common sense, out -- out spokesen leaders, but on the other hand a lot of people liked herman cain
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because he was a successful businessman and wasn't a politician. i think that's what people like about mitt romney, a successful businessman. although he was a successful governor of the liberal state of massachusetts, he was a republican. so i think both tend to benefit and newt a little more. >> and who do you think cain himself will endorse? >> i think in the short-term, i don't think any republican is necessarily looking for his endorsements, although they are looking for his supporters. and in a few short weeks we will have the iowa caucuses following a week later by than nam, and i think -- by new hampshire, and i think he better bow out for awhile. i don't think any reasons in the near future will want his endorsement or seek it, but certainly they will seek their supporters. >> and it is interesting. we just heard him say he was going to participate in the biggest transfer of power in this country. what do you make of that? >> he still wants to be in the game. he wasn't rejected because of his policies. he was rejected by his personal failings. this was self-inflicted and he
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let a lot of his supporters down. the people who liked him the most liked him because he wasn't apparently the typical politician. he turns out to be the same disgraced politician as many who served in office. so i think he needs to go away for awhile and do some soul searching and get his family together and his personal life together, and don't revisit politics anytime soon. even though you, quote, unquote, suspended your campaign. >> and suspension versus dropping out. why? >> there is no legal definition for suspending a campaign in federal law. what it allows them to do is still technically to be a candidate he is required to do filings and can raise money. what he should have done is bow outcome pleatly and not suspend a campaign that has no hope of regenerating itself. >> thank you for being with us this evening. and a unique event was held at fox news headquarters in new york city. the republicans running for president debated 14 times in the past eight months.
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but tonight was different. news gingrich, rick sanotrun, perry, ron paul and mitt romney and michele bachmann took questions from three states attorney general moderated by mike huckabee who has also run for president. take a look. >> is it wrong for the federal government to intrude on the state's authority over education? >> it is wrong. that's why i said i would recommend we turn the power to the states. on the other hand the presidents are both leaders in the american people and heads of the government. so a president can perfectly well go to a state and say i urge you to adopt a m pray. i urge you to adopt charter schools. the president is actually a leader of the country, but that's different than saying the federal government will administer it and the government will support the rules. >> i support the government 20* ban abortion and to stand up for the right to life. that intimately involves the
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states. the constitutional amendment process requires the rat tau pho location by the states. -- ratification by the states. >> you said there will be an order to block the healthcare law. w45* is your authority to invalidate a law passed by congress. >> the scutes tiff order -- the executive order obviously gives you that authority, but as i said earlier, having the men and women in those agencys that are going to share your philosophy, and not just at health and human services, but all the way through. >> you have been a strong opponent to the federal healthcare law as we have been. and it is an individual mandate. you also went so far as to say the states cannot pass the authority. >> the overriding issue i want the american people to realize is if we do absolutely nothing, obamacare will be implemented, and it is going to change the face of the country forever. it is going to cost trillions of dollars over the years. it is going to take away our
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liberty. it could have the potential collapse in medicare. >> if you don't understand the motivation and all of the problems of why we are facing this crisis and why people want to come here and kill us, it is just more laws that won't do it. this whole thing is all messed up because what we have been told for 10 years is that people want to come here and commit acts of terrorism against us because we are free and prosperous. as long as people believe that, believe me, you are not going to solve the problem scpru not going to make people safer. >> the first step we have to take is completely revamp the national relations board if it is not eliminated altogether and turn back to courts or to an agency that has much shorter reins. the decisions are related to the labor law. my own view is that the states should be puting in place right to work laws to allow the people of their states to participate in the workforce without ever joining a union. >> and tonight's moderator, governor mike hukabee joins us now. governor, it is an honor to
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have you here with us tonight. >> thank you, judge, a real pleasure to be with you. >> let's start with the front-runners, gingrich and romney. how do you think they did tonight? >> very well. neither of them hurt themselves. i think both helped themselves. they articulated positions that were very important. newt got some tough questions, particularly the one about the ad with nancy pelosi .'s i thought he -- pelosi. i thought he handled everything, as i expected he would. he is quick on his feet. nothing triped him. nothing set him back on his heels. the same thing with mitt romney. he clearly understood what the questions were that were posed to him. he evened them clearly and effectively. i thought his best answer was where he talked about a high drool lick fracking. for some people it would be controversial. it would be easy to take a middle of the road position. he did not. he took a clear and strong position on that. >> and clearly that's what people want. >> what is great is the fact
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that none of them as per your direction were allowed to dump on anyone else. it is good to just hear them focused on what their positions why. -- were. >> have i been in these debates -- i have been in these debates before scpru not answering the question, but defending yourself because you are a front-runner. or maybe a person who needs to tell who he is, what he is about, and ends up spending his time attacking a front-runner. th way the candidates had to address the questions posed by exes -- exceptionally qualified people and people who deal with him every day. >> and to you, governor, who was the most convincing person tonight? >> i wouldn't say one stood above the others. there were a couple of good moments. rick perry, i thought had his best debate tonight. >> i do too. >> because he stuck to the questions, and more importantly, what he did tonight, was he articulated with deep conviction a commitment to the 10th amendment, and then spelled it
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out, and some questions posed to him were pretty tough and could have triped him up. they did not. he stayed firm. he did not try to flinch at all. i thought his articulation of his commitment to the 10th amendment was his finest hour in his presidential campaign so far. >> and who benefits now that herman cain has suspended his campaign, who do you think benefits from his suspending his campaign? >> i think the voters for her can main go several places. some will go to newt gingrich. some will go to rick san -- santorum. some will go to michele bachmann. some perhaps will go to rick perry. frankly, some will go to mitt romney. i don't think they will go to ron paul because his libertarian view sets him apart from the other candidates as not sort of very much like the others, but slightly different. he is a pure libertarian, and that means he is substantially different than the other candidates including herman cain. >> finally, in terms of all of
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the candidates, was there anyone who surprised you? you said rick perry had his finest hour, so to speak. did anyone surprise you in the group? >> i think one of the things that happened, all of them having the same amount of time gave a candidate like rick santorum the first opportunity to say here is what i stand for. it is not in a 2-minute answer. he got 11 minutes the same as mitt romney and newt gingrich. it has to be a good night for somebody like rick santorum. it was good for michele bachmann and all of the candidates, particularly the ones stuck out on the edges and the wings of the stages on these debates. and they have had a fraction of the time of the ones that the media dubbed to be the front-runners and the ones who would get the lion share, and the position on the stage. >> okay. all right, governor, stay with us. next, what did the attorney general have to say about the candidates? they are here and joining the governor and i next on "justice."
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little on the appearance with nancy pelosi. >> yes. >> and climate change. you said earlier you thought it was the dumbest thing you have ever done. >> in recent years. i don't want to run my whole career through it. >> was it done because it was bad politics or bad policy?
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>> she was so radioactive that it was impossible for any conservative to be in the same set and not have everybody go, that's crazy. so they never heard the message. >> joining governor huckabee and i attorneys general pam bondi of florida and scott pruitt of california. and oklahoma, i'm sorry -- oklahoma let me tell you guys, i thought that was great. i really did. i love the questions. i thought they were so relevant in terms of what you do every day. but i want to start, and i am going to ask this to all three of you. i am going start with newt gingrich. newt gingrich comes out and he is talking about immigration. he has a neighborhood watch program as a solution to illegal immigration. now, number one, is that contrary to his previous stance about 25 years and we are going to let you be a part of the country. and even a violation of the
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supremacy clause of the pre seem eggs of federal law. -- pre emion of federal law. >> it is not if it establishes the system. it is their law. they are not preempting anything. i do think he is narrowing the scope of what he had earlier proposed by putting in the 20 or 30-year time frame. >> rather dramatically. >> and pam you talked about the whole idea of this neighborhood watch is kind of like being like a jury. >> right. and it is. he is proposing -- it is not like an impartial jury as we know. the juries are fair and impartial. he said it would be a jury of their peers, but it would be their friends and their neighbors who would know them. we have given in to the quasi judicial issue, that they are acting in the place of the judges.
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>> i think there are potential issues of equal protection as well. you will have a consistent application of who stays and who goes. he addressed that and tried to address that with some of the objective standards. without seeing the content of it, it is very difficult to know that. i think there was potential equal protection issues. >> there are certainly a lot of issues there. >> you lawyered it up a lot. from a layman's perspective, i thought he articulated his answer extremely well for the viewer to say, look, we already have models of this in place. so i realize that what you are talking about is some legal issues that he would have to address if he were proposing legislation. the viewers tonight of america heard something they said, you know what, yes, we do that with selective service. i thought he handled it very, very well. >> it was an interesting toning down of what he said at the last debate. do you believe that a guy who actually ef ared money from freddy and fan knee and wants to create a new epa will reduce the size of the government?
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>> i tell you, you know, we started out and each had a little something to say about what we expected tonight. my benchmark was i would want to leave with comfort that each of the six candidates is going to be a limited government conservative government. despite pressing newt gingrich several times, i did not get that. we could have another come -- compassionate conservative. i did not get that. >> do you agree with that? >> i would not sure if i completely agree with ken. when you look at newt's answers he is more of an idea person. you heard that come through loud and clear through many of the questions. i think the difficulty is limiting himself and trying to know when the federal government should implement the idea as he comes up with versus not implementing the ideas he comes up with. for that reason i think as governor huckabee said, he did respond well. >> i think he did a good job. i think he has so many ideas, as scott said. and he is very thoughtful.
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he is very sincere in what he wants to accomplish. >> let's go to the issue of immigration now. it is governor perry who said the state should be allowed to sue the federal government for the cost of illegal immigration as it relates to education and healthcare. how do you implement that? >> well, let me tell you. governor perry tonight truly lived up to being a 10th amendment purist. he really did. he stuck to the 10th amendment, and i admired his honesty. frankly i think he did a very good job as well tonight. you know, it is nice, judge, when we have a forum where the candidates aren't picking at each other. >> that's what i said to the governor. it was great. it was a great con concept. >> and we are actually hearing true substance from all of these candidates. >> of course, you were the fwies who have to end -- rut guys who end up having to sue the federal government, and you are probably doing it now.
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>> and immigration as you know, the federal government sued the states. alabama, arizona, they have been the aggressors. >> stay with us, panel. and coming up, did a united states border agent die as a result of a justice department's fast and furious program.
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president obama will say his healthcare law was based on massachusetts model. what would be your response to the president in that debate? >> i sure look forward to that. i would say, mr. president, thank you for the complement, but why didn't you give me a call? why didn't you pick up the phone and ask me what i would do differently and what i would do the same? >> we are back with governor
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huckabee and the three attorneys general. let's talk about governor perry and his assertion that he would overturn obamacare by executive order, lawyers all. >> well, we tried to have a discussion with him, with the governor, that would pretty much be impossible to do. >> scott? >> ken pressed him on that issue several times and tried to get the right response. the right response is can't do it. the federal healthcare law does not provide for waivers with the individual mandate. that's the focus of all of the concerns the conservatives have. and so the very thought that you could use executive order to undo the federal healthcare law is unattainable. and he didn't say it. he probably did the best he could. i thought he responded well, but not with the right answer.
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>> right. >> not with the right legal answer anyway. can you agree? >> i do agree with scott. he walked himself back and he talked about the 700 areas for discretion, and i would have an hhs administrator fill in the blanks. he sort of gave us a model for the hhs administrator who was responsible. nonetheless, i agree with my colleagues here that he is over stating the authority he would have as president. >> and governor, do you agree with that? >> great campaign rhetoric. people will eat it up. the only downside is if he is the candidate standing there with barack obama, barack obama will take him to school in the law and will say to him, how come you have beat me up about the abuse and the over use of the executive order when you on national television said that's exactly what you would do? the rules have to be the same for everybody. that's the only thing. i still believe it was his strongest performance today. i think he had a good night. he may not have impressed the lawyers, but that's what the republican base wanted to hear tonight. i'm going to take it to him.
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>> and he was a purist on the 10th amendment. >> he was. >> and he was very disciplined. the response to the question of education, he quickly said, there is no role. i will stay true to that. i agree with pam. he was committed to the 10th amendment. >> and the good news by the way about obamacare, the supreme court will hear it before the election in march. >> let's talk about governor romney. what impressed you the most about him? >> well, you know, it is kind of the usual expectations or the high for him. and he performed smoothly. my question on healthcare that you promod there in the beginning where he gave his answer to the president if he is in a debate with the president. i thought he was smooth. i thought he was confident, but as i picture myself as a voter out there who cares a lot about this healthcare, and i don't see a lot of distance there between him and the president. it doesn't really motivate me in terms of opposing the
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healthcare bill. >> i thought he did an extraordinary job on energy. i was concerned going into the debate about his model epa director, and who would that be? he volunteered some information on regulation. that currently states exclusively regulate that presently. and he said "i would respect that" and would keep the epa from engaging in regulation on top of the states. i thought governor romney did well on the questions that were very much a concern to oklahoma anes about natural gas production and energy and the epa. >> yes, he was very clear about fracking. that's it. >> no equivocation at all. >> i think governor romney did an incredible job with the epa. i frankly think he showed us tonight he can stand up to president obama in a general election. governor this. >> i thought his best answer was on the ncla, no child left behind. here is why. he and i were both governors. most of the critics have no
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idea what it actually did and didn't do. he did. he could have easily distanced himself from it completely. he didn't. he said there were some good things about it. and quite frankly, there were. if left, all of the standards of the state, the fact he didn't run away from it i thought was frankly a wonderful moment to show he is willing to take a stance that may not be popular, but frankly it was the right one. >> and he was very clear on the specifics of what he supported and what he didn't. let's talk about michele bachmann. how do you think she did tonight, pam? >> well, she dodged a couple answers. i had a problem with a few of her answers. scott, what do you think? >> i think with respect to -- my first question or one of my questions dealt with the department of education and the elimination with the education department and that being pure symbolism. i think she probably could have done a stronger job on that in response. but overall, i thought she came across well. i think she understands as we enter the debate we wanted to
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hear from the candidates about respecting the state's rights and federalism. i think she dealt with that in her answers. i think she did fine. >> and she did a good job with the kilo case. >> well, the kilo case, eminent domain. >> that was a great answer and a tough question. even for a lawyer. so she did a very good job. >> last question i will end with ken, what did you think of michele bachmann? >> i thought she ended well. i was surprised her explanation as to why they couldn't do mandates was addressed as well as not impairing the obligation of contracts. i think states can do this. they have the authority under the 10th amendment. she doesn't. i think there is a constitutional argument to make. i don't think that's the one she made. i was surprised by it. and on tort reform, i was really surprised she departed from the 10th amendment position. >> that's right jie. and i went back and gave her a chance to clean that up. >> she stuck to it.
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it was more important to her to have tort reform across the country than to leave it to the states and let them do it. >> we will have to clean up here too. govern every huck key be, thank you -- governor huckabee, thank you for being with us. >> from oklahoma. >> from oklahoma, i will never forget that. >> i don't know who won the game tonight. oklahoma state was playing. >> anyway, it was a fantastic concept, governor, and you guys were great. i loved it. >> thank you. coming up, eric holder under fire for the controversial fast and furious program. has he been honest with the american people? and then he is the primary suspect in michelle parker's disappearance, so why did a judge award him custody of their three-year-old twins? congratulations. congratulations. congralations. today, the city of charlotte can use verizon technology
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news. michelle parker's rocky relationship with the father of her three-year-old twins landed her on "people's court," but her problems didn't end there. >> we are officially naming dale smith, the exfiancee, as the primary suspect in the disappearance of michelle parker. >> on monday police call him out in public as the suspects in michelle parker's disappearance. tuesday, child protective services take his kids away, concerned he could harm them. and then on wednesday, more drama for dale smith.
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on the way to court for a custody hearing, he shoves a cameraman to the ground. but despite that, and despite the department of children and family services pleas -- >> the criminal case dates back here. >> a judge gives dale custody of his children. >> i don't see any evidence that he presents an i'm ma nept threat. -- an imminent threat to these children. >> the public? shocked. outside the courtroom, something even more shocking happened. even though he is the suspect in her daughter's disappearance, michelle's mother, yvonne, hugged dale. >> it is all going to be okay. >> are you going to be able to see the kids? >> sure. >> so how could this happen? when michelle disappeared on november 17th, attention immediately turns toward her exfiancee, dwale. -- dale. that day they appeared on "the people's court" a pretaped
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episode with the pair arguing over the cost of a lost engagement ring. around 3:15, michelle brings their three-year-old twins to dale's house for visitation. and then vanishes. >> i want my daughter back more than anything in this [bleep] world. >> a search is launched and the next day they find her suv in a parking lot, but no sign of michelle. a background check on dale reveals a wrap sheet full of violent charges and efforts by michelle in 2009 to get a domestic violence injunction against him. michelle's family describes their relationship as volatile. even more troubling, in 2001 dale smith's wife died under mysterious circumstances. >> i don't know if he did this. i have been telling you disbies this from day one. >> for michelle's mom, the jury is still out on dale's involvement in her daughter's disappearance. >> i would hate for that man to be the witch hunt and
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everybody wants to pin it on somebody, and he is ingnaw sent. if he is guilty, i will deal with that when i get to it. >> but michelle's father, on the other hand is certain he knows who is to blame. michelle's father, brad parker, joins us now. brad, i can't imagine wlaw going through, but thank you for being with us this evening. do you think that dale is responsible for your daughter's disappearance? >> yes, i do. >> what do you think happened? >> definitely. i believe with his temper -- he went to court which michelle was subpoenaed. michelle had to go to court. he was mad then. then when it aired on wednesday, he was really mad. i think he had it staged and planned, and then when michelle dropped the babies off he blew up, and i'm not sure what happened. he may have hit her or grabbed her and did something with her, and an hour after that michelle disappears.
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i think he has something to do with it and he knows it. he ain't taking a lie detector test, and he is hiding something. then he goes into custody for his kids and knocks a photographer down. when he leaves he almost runs over another photographer. i think the photographer said if he didn't move out of the way, dale would have ran him over. that's uncalled for for a father. >> there is no question, brad, that based on his prior history he was dishonorably discharged from the army for domestic battery, for drugs. he has all kinds of prior charges. >> yes. >> but you did -- did you talk to your daughter that day that she disappeared? >> michelle called me wednesday. i was in a meeting, and it went to my voicemail. after i got out of the meeting i played my voicemail, which i still have her message, and i called her back, and we talked
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for roughly 25 minutes to 30 minutes, and there was no indication of no foul play oringthing wrong. it was just like michelle calling her dad and saying, daddy, i love you. >> and brad, was this before or after the -- "the people's court" aired? >> "the people's court" aired on wednesday. she called me wednesday. it aired that wednesday and michelle dropped the twins off on thursday, and that's when michelle went disuh -- disappear jig what was her reaction to "the people's court" airing. it shows her and the father of her twins. would he have been angry with that? was she upset with that? do you think that's what caused the -- what you believe was the fight on the day she disappeared? >> yes, but michelle wasn't upset. i didn't even know it played that wednesday. she didn't say nothing about it. she acted like it was just a
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normal, regular day. dale probably got mad. he probably got mad worse. michelle showed up and pre probably blew up and something happened right then and there. >> why do you think, brad, that dale was mad? >> well, i heard when it first aired a lot of people got on facebook and saying, you look like an idiot. maybe that made him mad. that's what i'm thinking. they went 50/50. the judge -- both had to pay for it. he wasn't stuck with the whole bill. deal with it. go on with your life. you have two beautiful kids. you don't do that to your mom's kids. >> he brought the lawsuit. he was the one who brought it. if he wasn't happy with how it aired, the judge said they were acting like complete idiots, and i think that's a quote from the show. your grandchildren, brad, are now in the custody of this guy that we know, and you are here
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to tell us has a completely volatile temper and short fuse. how do you feel about your grandchildren being in this guy's custody? >> i am scared, but my hands are tied. unless he does something wrong, if we get the grandkids and see if there are bruises or anything, our hands are tied until he does something to those babies unless the babies say something. but our hands are tied. >> you know what is interesting is the flay you flaw children and -- the florida children and family services didn't want him to have the children either. last question, brad, your ex-wife, after the children are take in-- taken from her custody and given to their father, your ex-wife hugs him. what's your reaction to that? >> when i first saw that, i was shocked probably just like the whole world was watching this. but she said she wanted to make sure the brother and sister saw each other which made sense to me.
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it could have been a different way, but i don't know why she hugged him. >> brad, well, we are certainly hoping good things for you and your family. thanks for being with us this evening. >> and thank you for having me on. >> okay. up next a border agent gunned down in cold blood. the murder weeped supplied by our own -- the murder weapon supplied by our own government. who is to blame?@xóx
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the attorney general eric holder is back in the hotseat next week. he testifies on capitol hill about the controversial program fast and furious. >> december 10th, 2010, somewhere along the border of mexico and california. a group carrying ak-47's is spotted by u.s. border patrol. the border agents, including
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40-year-old brian terry ordered the invaders to drop their weapons. when the men refused the patrol fired beanbags to get them to comply. the i will -- the illegals returned fire with live am mow. agent terry, a former u.s. marine from michigan working three and a half years on the border is shot and killed. the subsequent investigation of terry's murder reveals something startling. the gun that killed him is actually from america. it was released by the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms as part of a government sting called operation fast and furious. approved by the department of justice, fast and furious allows gun dealers to purchase and smuggle weapons into mexico. the guns were supposed to be tracked all the way to the buyers who were believed to be from major crime organizations in mexico. the doj hoped to use the weapons to bust the big
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fishery responsible -- the big fish responsible for the mexican crime. but "fast and furious" is a huge disaster. the weapons are not carefully traced, and of the 2,000 guns let go across the border, 1400 are never recovered. it includes two guns used in the attack that killed agent terry. so who is responsible for this mess? >> i cannot be expected to know the details of every operation. >> during the congressional testimony this year, attorney general eric holder de thighs authorizing -- denies authorizing "fast and furious" saying he only found out about it recently. but brian terry's parents aren't buying it. >> i know they are lying. they are liars. >> they would have never let these guns out. maybe brian would never be in the desert. >> there is an investigation into the murder, but the obama administration has asked the
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judge on seal the court records. who are they trying to protect and why? >> congressman jason chavis from the great state of utah joins us. congressman, thanks for being with us. this whole case infeuar yates -- infuriates me, so whose fault is this mess? >> ultimately it is eric hold scpert department of justice. you have janet napolitano and the president has said in his march interview that he will hold somebody accountable and he has not done that. >> i have a copy of your letter to the president. and he said one thing when he was in mexico and it was amazing when he found that answers. did you get an answer to this letter? >> never got an answer. in may, the attorney general said he learned of "fast and furious" a few weeks ago. but it was in march when the
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president was being interviewed by univision when he said eric holder was not authorized in this orie responsible for this. how is it you knew eric holder didn't authorize it. who briefed you if they hadn't briefed the attorney general? it is not adding up. >> by the way, the e-mails make it very clear that they said things that were not true. how high do you think this botched operation goes? >> it was flawed from the inception, and it goes to the highest level. it goes to plan knee brewer who was very much involved. it was janet napolitano who said she had never spoken. she is the head of homeland security. she said she never even spoke to eric holder who is our attorney joan. -- the attorney general. the attorney general is somewhere between incompetence and ignorance saying i didn't know about it, and yet nobody has been fired. nothing has happened to change the equation. >> ignorance or cover up, and finally the white house gets a
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federal judge to seal brian terry's file and also to seal the decision and the reason the judge gave makes a lot of people angry including brian's family. what do you think of that? >> they have been quick to issue press releases. when he sent a letter he sent it to the press before he sent it to the terry family. we have a lot more to uncover jie. good luck to you. we will follow it closely of the congressman, thank you for being with us tonight. and up next, the justice department's "fast and feuar furious" and an atf agent weighs in. was it even legal?
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special agent atf agent jay dobbins who is with us tonight. if the plan was to trace this weapons, why weren't the weapons ever traced. the plan was to let these guns go and find out where they ended up. in reality, they pushed guns into the hands of the narco terrorists and use the dead bodies to judge their success. >> what do you mean? if they had a dead body, if somebody was killed with one of the guns then they would know the gun was used by a murderer? >> that's exactly what was happening. >> jay, have i to tell you, i was a d.a. i had a high intelligence. i have never heard of sending gunning to criminals and thinking they are going to move up the chain. where is the flaw in that
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thinking? am i wrong? >> you are exactly right. you never heard of it before because i never happened it before, and it will never happen again. but that doesn't bring back the hundreds of dead people in mexico. and it doesn't bring back brian terry. it doesn't bring back zopata. >> but where do you think the rest of the guns are? we are talking 50 caliber rifles. they are ak-47s, ar-15's. >> they are in the hands of the drug cartels and they will turn up in more death and violence and situations where there is blood on the streets. >> but look, if i give someone a gun and i let them go, aren't i almost a conspirator? i mean, to illegal activity? >> you are looking at this from a position of logic and reason and common sense. there was none of that applied to the decision making process here. >> so they just take a million dollars or whatever, and give these guns to people who are going into mexico. you don't tell the mexican government, "these guns are
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used -- government, these guns are used to kill border patrol agents. is agent terry's blood on the hands of the dea and the fbi who knew about this? >> absolutely, and on the hands of the justice department who tried to cover up the situation. it is the hands of the people at the white house who have now sealed brian terry's investigation and court records. if the blood is on the hands of all of those people. >> what is interesting is the e-mails make it clear that they were not telling the truth. and of course congressman chavis was talking about trying to get to the truth. the fbi and the dea knew there was going to be a crew in that canyon where agent terry was killed. and that is a crew trying to rip off another drug cartel. they didn't tell the border patrol why? >> that's a question to be answered. but that needs to be answered. one of the problems is that people at the department of justice, the executives know
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they don't have to tell the truth. they don't have to allow transparency in the investigations, and they can operate with impunity. >> and what about the fact they are shooting beanbags when these guys have ar-15's. >> i had the privilege of meeting brian terry's family. as distraught as they are over the death of their son, they just want the truth. >> thanks so much for being with us tonight. and that's it for us tonight. thanks for joining us. please e-mail us your comments. justice at fox news .com. see you next week. same time.
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