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tv   Tucker Carlson Tonight  FOX News  July 20, 2017 11:00pm-12:00am PDT

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comeback under this president. take care. >> that is all the time we have left this evening. we are not the destroyed trumpet establishment media. we will see you back here tomorrow night. tucker carlson is up next. >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." the juice is loose. after nine years in prison following convictions for kidnapping and armed robbery. >> i concur and grant parole. in addition, our decision though difficult is fair and just. >> i concur. >> mr. simpson, i do vote to grant parole when eligible. that will conclude this hearing. >> thank you.
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>> tucker: the decision came after hearing where simpson spoke at length about the 2007 robbery that put him in prison while his daughter testified about wanting to spend time with her father again. >> i always thought i was pretty good with people and i basically have spent a conflict free life. you know, i'm not a guy that ever got in a fight, with the public and everybody. there are tools about how to talk to people. instead of fighting and throwing punches. it's been ruled legally by the state of california that it was my property and they've given it to me. i've never been pulled gun on anybody. i never have. no one ever accused me of pointing any weapon on them. >> i don't feel that he is a threat. i will make this clear to you. o.j. never held a gun on me. >> i think i made it clear back then. i never had an alcohol problem.
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if i took that alcohol course, it would have been more for my children in case they ended up having a problem. well, my kids don't have a problem. i don't think anybody has ever accused me of having an alcohol problem or any kind of substance problem. >> on behalf of my family, my brother, my sister, my aunt and uncle, his friends, we just want him to come home. >> i'm sorry it happened. i'm sorry, nevada. i wish he had never called me. i thought i was glad to get my stuff back but it wasn't worth it. nine years away from your family is just not worth it. i'm sorry. >> tucker: he's talking there about the 2007 robbery that put him away but that's not why this is big news. we care because this guy murdered two people with a knife in 1995 and got up anyway. he was acquitted for killing his wife and her friend.
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he advised the simpson defense team, here. and an investigator of the murder. they both join us here tonight. mike furman, what to make up what o.j. simpson said today? >> was interesting is almost everything he said was either a partial lie or a lie. he beats women. he was prosecuted for beating nicole. he has been several fights where he beats up women. he had a weapon in the bronco. he threatened to kill himself. the actually -- partially, probably was holding collins hostage in that situation. he told the two men in las vegas to bring guns so he knew full well that they had guns and were going to brandish them, if not more. the property that he says with
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his was all given back to the victim. i know both of these facts because i talked to the very detective that handled this case today. >> tucker: doctor, when you see this, when you see o.j. simpson finally a free man with no murder charges hanging over him because he helped get him acquitted, how do you feel about that? >> what mark fuhrman said, it was irrelevant to today's procedure that the parole board had. they had set it right out in front that whatever happened before the 2007 incident doesn't count in their deliberations. >> tucker: share. no one would contest that. legally, is not relevant but the legal world and real world -- i think most people would agree that this guy committed a double murder and beat his wife. you helped get him off. how do you feel about that?
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>> the 12 jurors didn't feel that the prosecution presented a case. i was involved as a forensic pathologist. went over the forensic evidence. evidence is the evidence. the jury felt that was presented to them in the criminal trial and it was not sufficient to find him guilty. in the civil case, they heard evidence and presented better and convicted him. i think the probation and parole comes about because he was a model prisoner and it's interesting, tucker, i spoke to the district attorney in las vegas. david roger, who prosecuted the 2007 case. they had offered him 30 months plea deal which he refused. he could have been in 30 months and got out. now it's nine years later. there are still problems but he
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felt as long as he bided by the procedures necessary, it was properly given probation. >> tucker: mark fuhrman, i have talk you before but i never asked you this question. i always wondered. o.j. simpson murders to people. gets away with it. the trial ends and you become the villain and he goes to play golf. what he think of that? are you bitter about that? >> i never have worried about what suspects think or what they are doing or if one slips away. that's just the way things work. >> tucker: that's not what i'm saying. in our society. he almost never hear anyone get on tv and say o.j. simpson's a murderer and she is disgusting. do you think it's unfair that in the view of some, you are the villain when this guy got away with murder? >> the first thing, there's no such thing as fair.
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at the world's not fair. you march on with the fact that you have before you. i'm not a murderer. there's nothing you can call me that makes me equal to just how evil o.j. simpson is. when you cut the head off of your children's mother and you leave her on the steps, most probably -- had we not found the body, the children would have wandered down there and found their mother in a pool of blood. when you think about that and you want to compare that to anything you think i am? i will take that challenge any time >> tucker: pretty good point. in today's hearing, you got the sent that o.j. simpson and it looks sincere to me, he didn't think he did anything wrong. our member having that same impression of him 22 years ago during his trial. without your impression? this guy believes himself blameless? >> no, he doesn't believe himself blameless. he took some responsibility for the fact that the reason for the
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2007 episode was because she got people there. she was trying to defend what happened there. but he did finally take some responsibility because two security guards he didn't know pull out the guns. because the insignificance of the stupid thing that he was doing, mr. roger, she was able to offer him a decent plea bargain which he and wound up getting really punishment for the murder of his wife. >> tucker: ron goldman. my last question. do you think he did it, doctor? >> i think that both juries got it right, as far as what was presented to the juries. >> tucker: do you think you did it?
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do you think he killed him? them? >> any opinions i have about any case i testified in, i have never testified about an opinion about whether i thought someone was guilty or innocent. i will show what the autopsy or forensics shows -- >> tucker: i don't think we are going to get anywhere. mark fuhrman, dr. baden, thank you. lovelock correctional center, where o.j. simpson has been held for the past nine years. the author of a book called "guarding the juice: how o.j. simpson became my prison bff." watch this. >> i spent the 12 years leading up to this institution, raised in l.a. i'm sorry, miami. you know, with all the media stuff, these guys like jeffrey
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felix, making up stories, that was happening out on the street also. >> tucker: jeffrey felix joins us now. this is really illustrative. we are learning that not only is he a violent killer, he's also kind of a bad friend. if you say he's your bff and there he is, slashing you in the hearing today. >> i felt horrible. in the book, all i said was a great things about the juice. he always followed rules and regulation. he treated people with respect. i didn't say anything about him in my book. i got hammered on the streets for sticking up for the juice. he puts on the bus drivers uniform, just runs me over. i mean, he threw my name out there, over 500 million people heard that. that was horrible. >> tucker: are you assessing your own ability to judge character now? to think he is not the double murder i thought he was? >> i don't know. all i know is that i feel
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betrayed. i stuck up for him and he ran me over. it's horrible. >> tucker: let's be real. were you really surprised that o.j. simpson wasn't loyal to a prison guard? >> he doesn't have to throw my name out there. o.j. simpson had one shot at freedom today for the parole board. he took that chance and threw my name out there. that's taking a risk. >> tucker: why was he mad at you, do you think? >> i have no idea. maybe it's over the cookie stories. his camp and he should be more angry about the story that came out about him pleasuring himself in from of the woman guard that never happened. >> tucker: i haven't read your book. it's on my nightstand. apparently you have a chapter describing his private parts? the whole chapter? >> that was more my cowriter's idea. after seeing that and him, i felt inadequate about myself. >> tucker: okay... >> without getting into any morf
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those details, thank you very much, maybe that's why he's annoyed? >> how can you be annoyed about that? that's a compliment. if you say he's not working with anything, that would be horrible. >> tucker: i am suddenly siding with oj. >> thank you, have a good night. >> tucker: why does the president attacked jeff sessions in "the new york times"? special counsel bob mueller reportedly expanding his investigation in a huge way. the cover donald trump's business finances. stay
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>> tucker: it's been overshadowed by news about war heroes and retired tailbacks but the president has been in the news today too, as he often is. last night, he went after jeff sessions saying he was angry that sessions had recused himself from the russia investigation. if you had to do it over again, he would have hired someone else to be the ag. stinging words but this morning, sessions seem to brush them off. >> what is your reaction to those remarks and how seriously are you considering? >> we love this job and i plan to continue to do so, as long as that's appropriate. >> how do you feel like you can effectively serve from here on out if you don't have the confidence of the president? >> tucker: >> we are serving ri.
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i'm totally confident that we can continue to run this office in an effective way. >> tucker: take a step back and you can see how this all happened. the president is a 71-year-old political novice and all of a sudden, he is the subject of a vague open-ended investigation, whose goal may be to imprison him and his family. ask anyone who's had an independent counsel on this case. there are a lot of them here in washington. it's terrifying. you can end up lashing out at the people around you, even especially the ones try to help you the most. that's probably what's going on. yet, a attacking jeff sessionss still a useless, destructive act. don't shoot the friendly's. sessions is one of the allies, one of the very few that helped him get elected. sessions made big sacrifices to
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work -- a senate seat you could have held forever in alabama. many of the staff didn't want him to endorse donald trump but he did anyway. purely because he felt it was important. what a mess and emigration would do to america even though the biggest effect would be seen until decades until he after he was long gone from this earth. he didn't do this to get rich and certainly not to become more popular. he became less. many of his former colleagues slandered him as a bigot during his confirmation hearings. he's been a rare person in the entire executive branch making actual progress implementing the agenda his boss ran on. he's a real person who believes in it. administration brimming with opportunists and ideological saboteurs, who can be less interested in what voters think, sessions have never lost sight
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and the lessons of the last election. he has end of the obama administration's attack on local police department and lot more. he is likely the most effective member of the term cabinet. in return, the president attacked him in an interview with "the new york times." as a worrisome sign that the president is forgetting was on his side. goldman sachs did not elect president trump. the middle class did. they are not the point of this exercise. the point is to shine some light on the broad middle of this country and the millions of normal people who are hurting and could badly use an ally for the first time in a long time. it was just a stress-related aberration, the equivalent of yelling at your kids we had a bad day at the office. going forward, pay a little less attention to "the new york times" and a little more to matt drudge and
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for god sakes, lay off jeff sessions. he's your friend. one of the very few you have in washington. on the trump transition team, joining us now, brett. so, it's hard to understand why the president would lash -- it's easy to understand with his frustration. a real threat to him and his presidency, this investigation. it's hard to see my jeff sessions gets the blame. i think jeff sessions is one of the rare people who understand why trump got elected. >> is producing for the president. they are not getting along in personality but are getting along in policy. linda's recusal took place, jeff sessions knew the president was disappointed. he offered his resignation. it was not accepted at the time. if you would think it would have blown over. there's nothing between june 6th and today other than the president again lashing out at somebody who is delivering for him and the american people.
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it doesn't make sense at this time for the president to hurt somebody and in fact, he's hurting himself and his own agenda by going after him. >> tucker: it's deeply unfair but it also might be a sign of bad political judgment. i guess, why would you care with "the new york times" thinks? "the new york times" hates him. "the drudge" report, an aggregator, one of the biggest on the internet, an early champion of trump. now in the last couple of weeks, it seemed hostile to trump. that would be a real concern for me if i was running a political operation. losing people who supported me as a sign that things are going in the wrong direction. to think they know that? >> certainly the white house was not happy that this was reported in the last day. being blindsided by this interview and then trying to have damage control. he took the 52 senators to task
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and reminded them what their responsibility and promises were to the american people. that was all destroyed in a matter of hours by this interview. when you give an interview like that to the enemy? "the new york times"? no friend of yours? that's what they were doing, the president took the bait. he has received the brunt of terrible, terrible article. it will now take some time frame to get back on track. the president has to realize that you can be frustrated but keep it within the family. then, to your staff. don't vent to your enemies. >> tucker: with the context of an independent counsel investigation, the only person to vent to his ear lawyer and your spouse. your communications cannot be grabbed by the opposition. >> he has a very brilliant
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staff. if you don't take the advice, who can you blame? you have to blame yourself. the president has to be more disciplined and controlled because he has an agenda that the american people are very acceptable of. they want obamacare repealed and replaced. they want tax reform and immigration reform. these are the things the president has to deliver on. everything else is just noise. there's a special counsel, investigations on the hill. he has a perfect excuse not to talk. >> tucker: it was sinister to see that leaked from the mueller camp. but are not be going after my personal finances, bam. a leak. yes, they are. >> i guess he was baited into that question by "the new york times." the president is right. the special counsel served at the pleasure of the president. he better have a good reason to get rid of them. >> tucker: brad blakeman, thank you for joining us. just one day after the president
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warned special counselor robert mueller not to investigate his finances in an interview with "the new york times," mueller is doing just that and having the deputies spread the word that he is doing just that. bloomberg reported that he is investigating trump's personal business dealings that may involve russia. even ten dungeon only, the 2013 miss universe pageant in moscow. "the wall street journal" reported mueller is investigating paul manafort for possible money laundering. charles krauthammer is an author and columnist and he joins us tonight. there's a lot here but the timing of this, the president says unwisely, mueller can't go there with his personal finances. the very next day, somebody from the mueller camp leaks this. what do you think of that? >> i think the problem here at root is the whole ideal idea oe
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special counsel. the prosecutor. their resources are unlimited. politically, they are on fire able. legally, yes but we know what happened with nixon when he tried to fire a special prosecutor. the same would happen to trump. why does this happen? when it does, the reason it's wrong is because it creates an organization with unlimited resources and mandates to run a fishing expedition. we know what happened with clinton. it started out as a bad real estate deal and ended up with sex in the oval office. >> tucker: not a linear progression. >> it was a zigzag progression. it's a given that we are having a special prosecutor. the mandate is to look for the collusion, the collaboration. i think it's reasonable within
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the scope of that charge to follow the money. to see if there were financial dealings with russia. that might account for some of the collision, if they find collusion. what trump seemed the site in the interview was that he kind of accepted the logic of that. he would contest that. he seemed to say if you go beyond rational transactions, then you are doing a fishing expedition and crossing the redline. even he is saying that as long as these are russian transactions, which i assume are fairly limited, trump himself mentioned the condos being sold to russian nationals. on its face, completely innocent. that seems to be where the dividing line is. >> tucker: that's a big line, though. i'm confident until it's shown otherwise that russia did not get donald trump elected. when you watch any kind of
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financial transaction in russia, whether it's buying dinner, selling a condo, having a miss universe pageant, who knows what's there? it's russia. >> that's why, looking at the finances is important. it's not a market economy like ours. like you have public companies that have to make declarations with the stock market. there is a mafia regime run by thugs. ex-kgb thugs. they launder money. the steel. because those are the circumstances under which there are transactions with russia, you can link it logically. again, if you accept the premise that we should have a special prosecutor and the scope to go after possible collusion, it makes sense to go after financial dealings. you should be in a fishing expedition to go after stuff you did with other countries. >> tucker: i think you can
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really be problematic. charles, thank you for that. a satanic temple is trying to have a shrine with the prince of darkness in a small minnesota town. what's the point of all this? welcome to 2017. we will talk to one of the people from the temple. can i give it to you straight? that airline credit card you have... it could be better. it's time to shake things up. with the capital one venture card, you get double miles on everything you buy, not just airline purchases. seriously, think of all the things you buy. this why you asked me to coffee? well yeah... but also to catch-up. what's in your wallet?
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>> tucker: veterans park in belle plaine, minnesota once featured a christian monument. that was dangerous and offensive so the city declared the monument location a free speech zone. that drew the attention of a satanist group which wanted to erect a satanic shrine. the city is reversing itself and will remove all religious symbols from the park instead. the cofounder of the satanic temple, joining us tonight. thank you for joining us. i don't know much about satanism. what are the five pillars of satanism? >> we have seven tenets. they are irrelevant for having us be in the free speech zone. having us be a religion is -- >> tucker: you claim to be a religion. is it the worship of satan? >> no, we are not theistic.
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we are nontheistic. there modern scholars of satanism. it has no bearing on our claim to access to the free speech zone. >> tucker: the reason i'm pressing you is because i know a fake media story when i see one. the whole satanism thing seems like that. i'm trying to take you seriously because i take religious people seriously, all of them. this seems a way to give the finger to everyone else. they're probably not a lot of satanists in this town of 600 and minnesota. are there? >> there are some. a good deal of veterans within our ranks. 100,000 members. many veterans. there are veterans who don't identify with us for still stand up for our right to speak. we find that very often we ask for equal access. it's veterans who come forward in our defense. the values that they fought for. >> tucker: i agree with
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wholeheartedly. hence, your appearance tonight. but the right to speak and the right to give the finger to the residents of this little town in minnesota, it's not exactly -- >> that's not what we are doing. the monument, of course it is not. look at the monument. it's very respectful. reverent. a simple, sober monument. >> tucker: a monument to what? >> to veterans. if this was first and foremost something to thank the veterans. not all veterans are christian or satanist but they fought for pluralism and free speech. it's nice to know that we can preserve those values. when they shut down the open forum, we weren't actually celebrating that. we built this monument and were ready to install it. we wanted to put it there. it seemed like the residents of belle plaine weren't entirely up in arms about this. some of the word we got back was that people thought our monument
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design wasn't anything to complain about. the protesters from the catholic organization were out-of-state. we get this stuff about a small town -- their regional boundaries. >> tucker: tried in downtown birmingham, alabama, or chicago or something. here's the point i'm making. there is no comparison between satanism, a silly made up religion which has no god and nontheistic, which you conceded, or christianity, judaism, islam. they are millennia old. they run hospitals, churches, schools. they form the basis of our civil society. they don't really compared to what you are doing. do they? >> well, we are getting there. we are a growing population and we should defend pluralism and free speech. we can't allow america to divide itself with regional theocracy. like a place like clearwater florida. almost entirely colonized by
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scientologists. will they shut down for the open forum of elrond connect l. ron hubbard? >> tucker: i agree with your point strongly that people ought to be allowed to express their views in public. i don't want to be sucked into the trap of having to take seriously what is clearly not a serious thing. do you know what i mean? >> if we were being serious -- if you learn anything about the satanic temple, you can see that we must be serious. we have chapters internationally, quickly growing. >> tucker: what does that even mean? i don't believe the numbers of any group that comes on my show. i always just -- divide by ten. before we go -- >> so what if there were two?
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we would still have open access to the open forum. >> tucker: you would have the right to say what you think if it was just you. i would defend that right but the point of calling this satanism is just horrifying people in the middle of the country. >> that's not true. >> tucker: so what is the point? i will give you 30 seconds. what's the point of satanism? >> to sum up a religious movement in its history and 30 seconds, i would say satanism embodies enlightenment values. emblematic of the ultimate rebellion against tyranny. to that end, we look at the history of the crushing of the church and rise of enlightenment values and pluralism and multiculturalism and diversity as inherently satanic. >> tucker: you're taking a christian symbol, satan, and using it against christian's. that's kind of the point. you could have chosen anything
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to name this group since is basically new and you didn't check. he chose the one thing that christians hate the most. >> is not an arbitrary label. i think you could really get into it. >> tucker: probably not. thanks for joining us. i appreciate it. right now, a congresswoman from california, maxine waters may have her eyes on the presidency. she was just in an early primary states. she is the toast of msnbc. you could be voting for her in the primary in three years. are you ready for that? more on o.j. simpson, part of the defense team 22 years ago -- we will ask if he was proud of
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>> tucker: could 2020 be the year of queen maxine? maxine waters is a champion of the anti-trump movement. los angeles rioters and now the
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sunday, she's paying a visit to new hampshire. if i can only mean one thing. given that it's a long way from her district, she's running for president. >> certainly the inauguration is a way and honoring them and respecting them and i don't honor him. i don't expect him and i do want to be involved with him. i'm questioning the patriotism of all those republicans who are allowing this president to side with putin. i think that jeff sessions is very dangerous. i think he's a racist. this is a bunch of scum bags. >> this will put us a little bit further on our way to what i've been calling for so long. impeachment. >> tucker: larry elder, radio show host in los angeles. a proud son of that city. he knows maxine waters. he joins us for a preview of her presidential campaign. good to see you. fair to assume she's going to
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new hampshire all the way from hancock park, because you think about running for president. >> if she runs, she may have a few problems. of the 535 lawmakers, she's the only one to my knowledge who is with fidel castro. congress passed a resolution asking castro to return her and she wrote a letter to castro, the woman who escaped as a former black panther. she likened her to a freedom fighter and accused her of being a victim of the criminal justice system and urged castro to not return her to america. the woman, remains at the top of the fbi's most wanted list. joanne chesimard. she said the cia started the crack epidemic in urban cities.
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she had a meeting with that then secretary of treasury urging him during the financial bailout in a minority bank. she played the race card. it went supernova. one of the reasons why one of the left-wing groups, citizens for responsibility and ethics labeled her as one of the most corrupt politicians in washington, d.c. >> tucker: i can't speak to that because i'm not an investigator but she certainly good with money. she's been in office for 40 years. >> lived in a mansion. >> tucker: a $4.5 million house in one of the nicest neighborhoods in l.a. because she's a true stock investor. >> tucker: how did she do that? do you know the answer? is it magic? how can i do something like that? i will give you the harry truman answer. when you go into politics poor and you come out rich, you are
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stealing. >> tucker: [laughs] i love that. >> we haven't even talked about her left-wing views. they aren't any different than bernie sanders or elizabeth warren or nancy pelosi but she champions herself as the inner city. for inner-city black and brown people are corrosive, her views. you saw the movie "boys in the hood," 3% of the kids at that school can do math at grade level but if you live across the street, you are mandated to send your kids to that school. republicans want to give that person a choice, democrats want to force those people to send their kids to that school. >> tucker: i totally agree. if she runs for president, i hope you will be a maxine waters
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correspondent. >> she will not get my vote. >> tucker: you can cover her for us. i would love that. larry elder. the defense team and trial of o.j. simpson 22 years ago, we will talk to him after the break. we will ask about how he feels about that. liberty mutual stood with me when this guy got a flat tire in the middle of the night, so he got home safe. yeah, my dad says our insurance doesn't have that. what?! you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance.
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>> i do vote grant parole. this will conclude this hearing. >> tucker: o.j. simpson is going free. the former nfl star was granted parole after nine years in prison for armed robbery. alan dershowitz is a harvard law
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professor and served on simpson's defense team more than 20 years ago. professor, thank you for coming on. what would you say to o.j. now that he's free? >> stay out of the public. when i helped get him acquitted in a very controversial case, the public doesn't want you, they want to exploit you. you have to live a life of quiet desperation. most americans think you did it. you can go back to your family but if you start writing books and going on television, it's going to stir up controversy and you will probably get in trouble again. he probably won't listen to me. >> tucker: he did do it coming he did murder those two people? >> a lawyer is not able to disclose private views. when benjamin on yahoo with elected prime minister, he had a question and he asked if oj did it? and i said does israel have
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nuclear weapons and he said i can't tell you that and i said will you know i can't tell you that. >> tucker: the answer in both cases is the same, i have a feeling. looking back after all these years, i don't think you are at the center of the defense but part of it was the way racism was the problem. do you think that defense took a toll on the country? it was untrue anyway but was very social cost attacked? >> the decision to bring the trial downtown, that guaranteed a predominantly black jury. it could've been a predominantly white area and then marsha clark decided she would have benefit from having nine black women on the jury. they thought black jurors would be more receptive to police tampering with evidence. it reflected the deep racial divisions in the country rather than contributing to them.
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it may have contributed somewhat but we have a role to play. we have to consider only the interests of justice for our client. everything i did in the case i am proud of. i was primarily the god forbid lawyer. but i also helped plan the strategy, particularly this scientific strategy. you realize why it was a wise decision. he would not have been a good witness. if the prosecution had made some wise decisions, if they had tried the cloth on in front of the jury, to see if it fit, we didn't win back the case. they lost the case. if you want to blame somebody for what you believe is an injustice, it goes primarily to the prosecutors. >> tucker: i blame the jury. they are the ones that made the decision. i know you can't say what you think of your former client's guilt or innocence but what was her gut response when you saw him acquitted? >> i thought there would probably be a hung jury. i didn't think there was going to be conviction.
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the scientific evidence, i was fairly confident there would be no conviction but i also thought there would be no a acquittal. i was surprised. >> tucker: i know you've been following the russian investigation. what the president said about his attorney general to "the new york times," he said if yet known he would recuse himself, he would have not hired him. you think he legally had to recuse himself? >> there is no legal requirement to recuse but there's an ethical requirement. presidents and attorney general's often have a tense relationship. bill clinton had an extremely tense relationship with janet reno. she investigated him. i'm not surprised at president trump's views. i think he would have been by better off expressing them in private than in public. >> tucker: thank you for coming out tonight. we will be
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>> tucker: that's it for us unfortunately, tune in every night at eight to the show that's the sworn e e e e e e e , pomposity, smugness, and groupthink, "the five"'s next will see you tomorrow. >> this is a fox news alert, earlier this evening cia director mike pompeo slammed "the new york times" for outing an undercover cia officer. let's bring in fox news' ed henry for more on this story. >> good to see you, a dramatic development tonight. this is happening at the aspen security forum, this is an annual event out in colorado where these various security officials get together and talk about the top issues of the day. russian interference in the last presidential election was also a major topic, we'll get into that because rick pompeo got frustrated by a series of questions by reporters and panelists about that.


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