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tv   Outnumbered  FOX News  August 10, 2018 9:00am-10:00am PDT

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meals? >> a week. >> and expected to live up to 50 years? >> of course you will. >> surviving off of fast food. >> absolutely. >> if you say so. >> don't let august pass you by. >> favorite move the year for the record. >> have a great weekend. >> have a good weekend. >> melissa: a big delay in the trial of paul manafort, prosecutors expected to rest their case as early as today. in the first courtroom test for special counsel robert mueller's team. but the trial is in recess and is not expected to begin until the next hour. man fort's accused of evading millions of taxes and lying to the government among other allegations. this is outnumbered. with us today is harris fall neck, senior fellow for the independent women's voice lisa bood, fox news contributor katie pavlich, and joining us tom dupree, former deputy assistant attorney general under george w. bush.
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and he is outnumbered. thank you for joining us. >> harris: happy national smores day. >> a bonfire! >> it's not happening. >> one can only hope. >> melissa: yesterday a group of bank fliese testifying about false hoods and manafort's loan applications. manafort's former business partner, rick gates, has been a key with it for the prosecution. man a fort's lawyers attacking gates' credibility. now this sudden delay today, peter doocy is live at the federal courthouse in alexandria, virginia with the latest. what is it all about, peter? >> we have no idea why, but the judge delayed the start of today's proceedings by four hours. and this is a judge that is such
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a stickler for a speedy trial that he often snaps at the mueller team if he thinks they are dragging things out. the mueller team complained about the judge with emotion, protesting a comment that he made yesterday, where he urged the special counsel's lawyers not to focus so much on loans that paul manafort was denied, he wanted them to focus on loans that he got. the mueller team didn't think it was fair, they wrote in the motion, the court's suggestion that the government was unnecessarily spending time on a loan that manafort did not receive undermines the well-established law on conspiracy, undercuts the charge in count 28, and is likely to confuse and mislead the jury. the mueller team wants the judge to do the same thing yesterday, explain that he may have made a mistake to the jury. but they wanted to it happen this morning. and it didn't. all that's happened today, is the judge warned everybody in court not to peek at what's on counsel's table then brought the jury, in reminded them they aren't supposed to talk to
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anybody about the trial, and supposed to keep an open mind about the case in it's wrapped up and receive jury instructions and then a lunch break. it's notable when the judge announced this long recess by far the longest recess of the trial, he exited the bench and walked toward the jury room when he normally walks right into his chambers. but this delay ordered by the judge does jeopardize something that the mueller team has assured the judge they were going to try to do, wrap up their case today. they still have four or five more with its that is normally a full day's worth of trial. and they lost the entire morning, wiped out. still don't know why. >> melissa: interesting. well, come back when you know why. peter doocy, thank you. i will bring it out to the couch, tom dupree, this is your specialty, what's your take on what's going on? >> tom: the delay this morning, it's intriguing. trials do get delayed but in this case particularly this is a judge who has the rocket docket,
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likes to move it forward past fast it's high lie unusual. could be relatively minor, working out the specifics of a witnesses' testimony. or it could be something significant, the prosecutors may have cut a deal with mueller. my sense is that whatever it is we are going to know this afternoon if there's game change in the works. this judge told the prosecution they need move ahead. the prosecution was ready to wrap up today and would get to the defense side of the case. >> melissa: how do you think they're doing, what do you think is ahead on points? >> tom: it's gone up and down. i will tell you this, i think the prosecutors have been very frustrated with the way the judge has been letting them try the case. as we've seen, he's directed them to move along quickly, he's at times reprimanded them in front of the jury, so far they had to file a motion saying you need to clear the air, you may have given the jury the misimpression that we were violating your rules. now that said, i do think that the prosecutors introduced powerful testimony with gates. this may come down to whether or not the jury wants to take gates
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at his word that, he and manafort engaged in illegal conduct or gates is a skal i wag and doesn't deserve to be believed. >> melissa: maybe it was a mistake to bring gates out. they said they could make a case without him, they didn't need him. if it comes down to whether or not they believe him, when he's lied about a lot of stuff, seems like in the past -- >> katie: we're not going to know if it came down to rick gates' testimony. the jury likely isn't going to talk about what made their decision, certainly all of the jurors aren't going to talk about why they made decisions and why they did not. i'm interested to see how long the jury deliberation takes once the trial is over. that's usually an indication whether they go with guilty or not guilty or a hung jury. the longer it takes for them to deliberate, the more doubt there is, for the prosecution they have to convince 12 people that it's beyond a reasonable doubt that manafort is guilty. and manafort only has to convince one. it will be interesting to see
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how long it takes. >> melissa: harris? >> harris: i wanted to press in with you onning some, tom, and it has to do with the believebilt and credibility of rick gates. don't normally criminal, juries like when criminals rat on each other, right? [laughing] that gives them a little bit of street cred from what i've read and experienced. what comes out of this trial, that investigator with the russian probe might be looking at bob mueller, what do you see? they can't talk about it during the trial, it's not appropriate to bring it up. but you know mueller is watching. >> tom: great question. from my perspective this the first and most public test of mueller. and if this trial results in an acquitable, i think you will hear a vastly increased drum beat saying that this is a witch hunt, look at this, trumped-up prosecution, didn't go anywhere, that sort of thing. >> harris: no pun intended. >> tom: no pun intended. it is a public test for mueller. we haven't seen a lot of allegations really any aelss in
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the manafort trial that directly link to the heart of what mueller is looking for. >> harris: the judge wouldn't have allowed to us know about it anyway. >> tom: absolutely. mueller has been cautious and his prosecutors say don't mention this, don't put it on the public record, it might jeopardize the investigation. i don't think there's a direct connection. but what happens with manafort is really going to shape the view of mueller and his investigation in the minds of the american people. >> harris: lisa? >> lisa: if there's no direct connection and none of these charges have to do with russian interference or collusion, i don't really care about this to be honest. paul manafort clearly has done some bad things, if he goes to jail it's probably well deserved. but i don't really care. my question, is this a good use of mueller's time and resources and taxpayer resources? >> tom: well, that is a fair question. and what's interesting, is mueller kept this in his own shop. in other cases where -- >> lisa: why do you think that
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was? >> tom: my guess is he thought this was sufficiently connected to the heart of the mandate that he wanted to keep it. but he's not shy about cutting things loose when he finds evidence of other unrelated wrongdoing he's said i'm going to pass this off to federal prosecutors in new york rather than do it myself. this one me wanted to do himself. >> melissa: that makes the essential point, is there something beyond this, once you see paul man a for the work himself into the -- manafort to work connections, two people with russian connections and he's desperate and money and broken the law. he's vulnerable to the outside influence that might come n we've heard nothing about that so far. do you think that's what is up mueller's sleeve? >> tom: i don't see it at this point. again, we haven't really heard a lot about it. >> melissa: seems like we would have heard about it. >> tom: you think we would have heard about it. man fort has stood firm in fighting this charge. we've seen mueller go after many other people, gates, they plead out, agree to tell mueller everything they know. when manafort first said he was
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going to fight this a lot of people didn't believe him. they said look at the jail time you're facing, why roll the goo dice on this. >> why do you think that is, why do you think manafort has chosen to fight this? >> tom: one possibility is he believes he's innocent. >> is manafort going to flip on the president? in order to flip on the president you have to have information to use against the president. this could be simple in the sense that bob mueller saw him in his opinion breaking a number of federal crimes, a number of felonies and they didn't believe they could let it go, it has nothing to do with russian collusion. >> harris: new developments on the steele dossier, which was purported to contain dirt on president trump. and was partly funded by the clinton campaign. "the hill" reports that house judiciary committee bob goodlatte is readying subpoenas to those connected and could ish
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oh them as -- issue them as early as today. always happens on a friday, the docu-dump. as part of the investigation with the house oversight committee into the fbi and doj decision making during the 2016 presidential elections. sources say goodlatte is set to slap subpoenas on justice department official bruce orr, his wife, nellie orr and fusion gps co-founder glen simpson were together working at that company among others. oversight chair trey gowdy says congress' patience has been wearing thin in the search for the truth. watch much. >> chairman goodlatte is a patient man but we have run out of patience. i talked to him yesterday at length. they need to set this for a date certain or there will be a subpoena issued, the speaker will back it up, goodlatte will back it up, the house will back it up. no reason not to make him available for a deposition or transcribed interview.
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>> harris: can we, tom, talk about the basis of the anti-trump dossier. people hear us toss around fisa, and break it down. >> tom: the issue here is the fuse that d.o.j. put the dossier to. in other words we have begun to see that d.o.j. had the dossier and they used it in some way, shape, or form to get surveillance warrants authorized. and the question is, did the judges who approved those warrants, were they made aware of the origins of this dossier. i think one thing that's interesting here in the new development about the subpoenas is from my perspective one of the most imtrying aspects is the rule of bruce orr, the d.o.j. official centrally involved in a lot of this. when i was at the justice department any time i saw something that touched partisan political that, sort of thing, red flags went up. when you are in a law enforcement mode you need to be scrupulously nonpartisan. any time you see something like that, particularly with a personal connection to some of
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the players, you have to be so cautious either recuse yourself or take steps to insulate yourself against the accusations. >> harris: can we talk about those familial ties. although it wasn't familial, it was a love affair at fbi between the two agents sending the oon ty trump texts, they had grand scheme to keep the president out of the white house. in this case they did have, they were married. bruce and nellie orr. you think somebody with that capacity and legal mind would know better. >> tom: that is surprising to me, too. the people in washington, you have two career couples, people doing things, i never would say you have to have a per se bar on anything your spouse is involved in. >> harris: why wouldn't you say that? corporations have those types of things. >> tom: you see judges all the time, they might be married to some one who's a lawyer, could their interests affect that. if it's something they worked on directly you have to step aside. that's why in this case i would say if i were in bruce orr's shoes, we're still getting the
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facts, but in this case his connection was so close that he should have stepped aside. >> katie: they did on it purpose. not that they thought there was a conflict, they were using the power of justice, the fbi, combined it with fusion gps, nellie ore was required to go against president trump. they weren't thinking about the conflict, they were thinking about it as a way to go after a future potential president of the united states. so there are big questions about how far fusion gps is, tentacles go into the democratic party. christopher steele was in touch with bruce orr even after he was eliminated from his position at d.o.j. >> harris: and i believe after christopher steele was told no longer to work with them -- >> katie: they still in contact, judicial watch sued to get that communication between all of them to figure out was the justice department being used as a political weapon against a campaign.
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up until now, all of the -- >> harris: what is the accountability. i feel like we race on chariot like ben hur style and they're like twinkies on the snack tray when we get there. [laughing] >> lisa: we haven't seen much accountability, period, for people like andrew mccabe and beyond. i think there's also been new questions, and byron york did a lot of great reporting on this, about steele's connection to a putin-connected russian oligarch. at the same time he was digging up dirt on president trump -- then candidate trump. that raises questions in and of itself. bruce orr was an intermediary between steele and the fbi after steele was fired for leaking to the press which he shouldn't have done in the first place. and steele's credibility should be questioned, period, he even in court filings in london basically couldn't back up some
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of the information in the dossier. we know the fbi couldn't either. yet they still used it in some fashion to obtain a fisa warrant. all of this is concerning. >> harris: me lis, a i don't know if we would get this answer, but would there have been any sort of clearance that christopher steele would have been given? >> melissa: i don't think so, he's a foreigner. >> harris: what it looks like is using your spouse at a private group in order to do the dirty work of the fbi and the d.o.j. that you don't want to get your hands dirty doing. >> melissa: one step removed and you have them create this dossier. maybe that's not the case. it certainly looks like that. that's why they need to stand up to questioning. that's why it has to be trance part, that's why the american people need to hear from them. if that's the case it's terrifying for americans. >> lisa: it's nice that congress is trying to hold people accountable. we have seen subpoena threats for two years, even if they issue the subpoenas the justice
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department doesn't dplie. >> katie: bob goodlatte said about a month ago, that peter strzok would be called back for a contempt hearing and he never was. that people are very tired of this ginning up, and no enforcement of the subpoenas when congress has the power to enforce them. >> lisa: when are we going to get actual answers, and peter strzok hasn't been held accountable. for viewers at home, they have to be completely frustrated by this, there continues to be new information, never any resource, never any sort of punishment, and it's got to be utterly frustrating. >> harris: i wonder if they're concentrating on things like paying their bills. >> lisa: probably. >> harris: healthcare and those other issues. we'll follow the facts as they pop. democratic socialist and congressional candidate alexandria cortez has rejected an offer to debate the issues with conservative commentator ben shapiro and set off a social media firestorm in the process.
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did she or he cross the line? we'll talk about it. that didn't take long, football is back, pre-season. so are nfl national april them protest and angry tweets from the president. the league is still grappling with how to handle the whole issue. stay close. no matter who rides point, there are over 10,000 allstate agents riding sweep. call one today. are you in good hands? give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. i'll take that. [cheers] 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. new ensure max protein. in two great flavors. new ensure max protein. you don't see psoriasis. you see clear skin. you see me. but if you saw me before cosentyx...
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>> president trump is sounding off on the latest round of nfl national anthem protests. after players from these four teams renewed their demonstrations during the first full slate of pre-season games last night, some raising a fist, neel, waiting in the locker room. the league saying it won't punish anyone while in talks with the players union about the protests. the president tweeting this morning, be happy, be cool, a football -- sorry. [laughing] football game that fans are paying so much money to watch and enjoy is no place to protest. most of that money goes to the players anyway. find another way to protest, stand proudly for your national anthem or be suspended without pay. tom, i'm going to you, you know a thing or two about the nfl and football, you represented tom
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brady in deflate gate, and the cuff links you are wearing new england patriot cuff links. you are prepared for this. >> tom: i wear my loyalties on my sleeve. >> lisa: obviously, wear it proud n all seriousness, you know about the inner workings of the nfl, the nfl is trying to reach an agreement with the players association. can you break that down for us and how that works? >> tom: absolutely. what we are seeing is they're really picking up where they left off the end of last season, there's no resolution to how to handle the situation. the league has said it's not going to impose for the time being any punishment on the players for protesting during the anthem while they try to negotiate a resolution with the players association. which of course is a union that speaks on bae half of and represents the players. i have to say, as not as a lawyer but as a fan i hope that they can resolve this issue. honestly, the one thing or one of the things i love about the
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nfl, it was a politics-free zone. turn on the game on sunday, watch, it doesn't matter democrat or republican, we can cheer for our favorite teams. i'm hopeful, optimistic they'll find something that satisfies the owners and the players and we can get back to playing ball. >> lisa: seems like there are no politics-free zones in the country any more. even the dog park, two ladies were mean to me. >> harris: aw! you and your dog are cute. what is wrong with the world. . >> lisa: do you see any agreement taking place between the nfl and the players association? >> katie: it seems like the guys who want to kneel with disrespect don't understand why it's disrespectful. if you are negotiating on behalf of the players association, what would your argument be? people are confused about what the difference is, with the teams, the rules, what the coaches can enforce and the players being upset about the idea.
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>> harris: good question. >> katie: the rules were implemented without any negotiation. as some one who has been an attorney in the nfl sphere, what would you argue on behalf of the players? >> tom: the first thing is try to canvas the mayors to find out what -- canvas the players to find a resolution that would accommodate everyone, players that want to protestnd players that are proud to stand during the anthem. one thing that gets lost in the shuffle the players are diverse. yes, there are some who protest, yes some don't come out to the anthem, some raise their fists but many stand proudly during the anthem. >> katie: and others should not be protesting as well they believe. >> tom: right, and that makes this particularly complex, the players do not all necessarily have the exact same view on this. and then of course you see the president, who i think views this probably correctly as a winning political issue, fanning the flames when this comes out. and puts the issue back in the spotlight. >> lisa: it's not just about the players, there's the owners. the owners are upset they're worried about the bottom line.
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for the nfl and these teams what have been the bottom line effect? mvp if the president would stop tweeting i don't think we would notice. we watch a lot of football, it's our favorite thing to do together, watching sports, we watch soccer, too. and if you weren't pointing it out, i don't think you would really notice. at the beginning of the game, you're setting settled, listening to the anthem, maybe the camera focuses on them maybe it doesn't. it wouldn't be this big of a deal. he thinks it's a winning point. for the owners they would like it to go away, they don't need any controversy or any politics related to this prize poe selgs, their team ownership. >> harris: and the owners and nfl league have not daement with big issues very well in general. you have domestic violence -- irrelevant was looking has -- u.s. has a list, a whole grid in 2018 of the things that plirs, just a few, players were accused of.
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drugs, assault, dui, public intoxication, bomb threat, dui, injury to an elderly person, sexual assault, domestic violence, domestic violence. they have issues that are microcosms of our greater society to deal with. it is tough to get their arms, remember they formed that five-woman council and going to look at domestic violence. we haven't heard much. >> melissa: what happened to that. >> harris: and the charges keep coming. they are inside america. those are some of the things we deal with in a greater society. i don't understand why they can't get this right. they have already said, go in the locker room. they have done so many different things why doesn't it stick. they have proven as a league, and the commissioner is part of this, too, they don't deal with the big issues. >> tom: i'm not a fan the way the disciplinary process has worked, it's arbitrary, it's
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capricious, makes a mockery of the rule of law. to think that somehow when it comes to the national anthem that roger goodell is going on do a 180 and be solomon on the mount and come up with a solution is fantasy. >> katie: because of the players union, the collective bargaining power they have against the owners and the league and goodell. they don't have any control over the disciplinary process, what the rules are. they have rules that are brokeen. >> harris: true. >> katie: because they have the collective bargaining power. >> katie: why can't the players union set a base line, if you've been accused of domestic violence, why can't there be -- >> katie: they protect those guys. >> lisa: interesting discussion. the broadcast tv network with a deluge of coverage, chris collins' arrest. the same study finds they downplayed similar arrests of two democratic lawmakers. is there a double standard? we'll get to the bottom of it.
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>> melissa: the mainstream media accused of a double standard in its cover of republican versus democratic scandals. chris collins' arrest on insider trading charges this week, getting prominent coverage on the big three tv networks who quickly linked collins to president trump. watch. >> congressman chris collins. >> republican congressman chris collins. >> republican congressman chris collins. >> one of the first to endorse then-candidate trump. >> one of the president's earliest supporters. >> new trouble for one of president trump's earliest allies. >> first congressman to be charged with a crime since trump's presidency. >> melissa: you get the point. the same three networks appeared to ignore or downplay the indictments and trials of two democrats in 2015 and 2016. this is according to a media research study, the networks had
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zero coverage of former democrat congresswoman corrine brown's fraud conviction and 68 seconds of former democratic congressman fatah also convicted of fraud. the republic be a, collins, getting more than 15 minutes of coverage in the first 24 hours after the news broke. what do you think? >> tom: i can't tell you i'm shocked. what i don't understand is, i understand there is relevance, congressman gets indicted. what i don't understand is why they constantly try to make a link, he's a friend have trump, supporter of trump, known on associate with republicans. it doesn't have a connection to the alleged crime f this was something where he was conspi conspireing with other republicans in the caucus it's relevant. but the fact he engaged in what allegedly was an insider trading stock scheme with his son and relatives that, has no relevance to the larger political connections or who he endorses for president. >> melissa: and he got the
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information by being on the board of directors of the company, not got inside information as a u are of his role in congress. not that what he did, if it's true, is not even remotely okay. but like you said, it doesn't have to do directly with his job in washington. >> katie: can i submit one thing as evidence, as bias, you look at the "new york times" article they did about senator bob menendez, they did not mention in a helping think article they see what the what that he was a democrat once. then they updated it online and only mentioned it in the fourth paragraph of the article. i'll submit that as evidence of bias in the way these things are kord. >> tom: very powerful evidence. >> lisa: i thought you'd like it. >> katie: i think it's important that this cover is put out to the can you betry, a republican accused of serious crimes. i wish the media would hold the other side to the same standard, it would be better for everybody.
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i don't think they should cover republicans less aggressively, i think they should cover democrats more aggressively. they commit crimes, too, i thought it was funny when nancy pelosi was saying, also trying to connect it to the republicans and saying that they're very corrupt and democrats of course have never had anything like this. she needs to be reminded of maxine watters. multiple times of corruption with her bank in california, benefitting because of her place in congress. the frustration in media is democrats aren't given as much aggressive cover. same thing for barack obama. not that journalists have bias, they actively cover up things. barack obama, with lewis farrakhan and they withheld it. >> or leaving out the word democrat. >> harris: and there's the inconsistency and the double standard, it would seem, that people when democrats are doing
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something, people aren't quick to jump to connect to it a democratic president. you don't see that sort of coupling that you see with, well how close was chris collins to donald trump. and if that were, as you said tom, even applicable in this case then fine. but it isn't. >> tom: so true. it seems as though a democrat is accused it is a case of individual -- >> harris: did you hear anybody say all of this was going on and their relationship with barack obama or bill clinton msht have been such and such. >> tom: they hang out with these people so they're inclierd to criminal conduct. >> melissa: can you bet this will be an issue democrats try to hang around the next, of republicans, i can feel the ads made, they'll try on connect other folks to. how successful do you think they will? for the average person watching an ad or listening, they haven't done the deep dive on the crime and what was the connection. >> lisa: does this impact people
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that are running for congress in california, these other states, probably not as much. i think democrats are going to collectively make an argument that republicans are more broadly corrupt. why you're going to get pressure from con congressional leadership for chris collins to step aside. which he's not going to. thus this plays out. we'll continue to discuss it. >> harris: when the story was breaking the federal prosecutor was on set with me, he said i don't think he should step aside. he said my bailiwick is legal but if he were toy client i'd say stay with it no matter what it is. the bar according to the federal prosecutor, whether or not he was enriched not his relatives. >> tom: there's a good case where it's a legal judgment you bring to bear if you were the congressman's defense lawyer rather than the political. i get why the republican leadership says we have to uncommunicate you. >> harris: but if it's your client. >> tom: very different. >> melissa: after conservative
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conversation about the issues. you noted you think republicans are afraid to debate with you or talk to you or discuss the issues. not only am i eager, i offer $10,000 to your campaign today. >> lisa: that's editor of "the daily wire," also a friend challenging alexandria ocasio-cortez, offering to donate sdldz 10,000 to her campaign if she accepted, triggering a sparring match instead. >> katie: ocasio-cortez
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comparing his imitation to cat calling. the row agressive darling and candidate for congress, saying i don't owe a response to unslis theed request to men with bad intentions and like cat calling. shapiro, who later offered to give the money to charity, responding discussion and debate are not bad intentions. slander something one as sex interest cat caller without reason or evidence does demonstrate coward is and bad intent. however. it wasn't just shapiro and ocasio-cortez, they triggered a social media firestorm with many choices chiming in, i said if you don't want to debate a man i'll debate you as well. i haven't heard back. >> as some one used to debating, is asking for conversation cat calling? it seems pretty ridiculous. >> tom: let me go out on a limb, no. this is, even for a self-described socialist, this is bizarre. the fact he was saying i want to debate you, i want to engage you
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as vigorous back and forth argument about substance and ideas that, is the opposite of catcalling, that's showing respect for her positions, however wrong-headed they may be, he said i seriously want to engage you. who's right, who's wrong, let's battle ideas. that is the an advertise sis of cat calling. >> we've seen ocasio kor tedz, saying funeral costs could be saved with medicare for all man. doesn't that come down to leftists never want to engage in ideas and debate, they want to say what they have to say and shut up the other side? >> sure, when we've seen her pressed in the slightest by margaret hoover and trevor noah, she was incapable and unable to defend her policy positions and wasn't able to basically defend them, period. she doesn't want to debate ben shapiro or you, you would eviscerate her. i don't blame her for not having that conversation. she said that the request was
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unsolicited, duh, it's a request, that's what happens. [laughing] but i feel like the left does this, where they default to something as sexist, racist that,'s a negative thing for the country. those terms should be applied when they really should be applicable. we should leave those sorts of terms for real cases of sexism, real cases have racism. when you continue to throw it on mislanious things it devalues those terms and the significance of being labeled with them. >> harris: and just shows the hollowness 6 her preparedness for that argument. there are a whole lot of ways to engage somebody on whether or not you want to be called out to debate. we're seeing this across the country, both sides of the political aisle, people saying, i'll give up my tax returns if you set a date and time, the democrats in new york right now. i will say this, though, this public world of twitter gets a little, social media in general gets dicey, i was nervous when i
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saw ben shapiro, i know you have as a friend and i've interviewed him many times on the channel, offer $10,000 for a political campaign. i'm glad he walked that back to charity. >> that was a mistake. >> harris: it was. but that's when the moment gets kind of bigger than what you're trying to offer. the real thing there is does ocasio kor nez deserve to be on the -- ocasio-cortez deserve to be on the national level where she stumbled poorly. that's the question. >> is she ready for prime time. >> melissa: i think democrats have been tricked into elevating her, they always say pick your enemy and elevate them. she's some one who is interesting to hear her story and interesting that she won this seat but she doesn't seem to have a lot to back it up. i would say she's definitely too chicken to face ben shapiro, at the same time he should not have brought money into it.
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>> katie: i think that represents how difficult it is in this day and age to engage the debate. you go to the college campus, conservatives are spending thousands of dollars on security, they're being threatened by leftists to bring a different perspective into the conversation, ben shapiro included. he brought the money in to trynd say, you won't debate me based on the merits, what if i give incentive to have a conversation. >> harris: we have campaign laws. >> lisa: he was innocently looking for a hook to draw her into the conversation. but he has shut down consistently on college campuses, or attempts, why do you think that is? he is a brilliant guy and his words have an impact and people, college students listen and he offers a counter position that a lot of these college students aren't getting on the college campuses. >> tom: if she were quicker she would have accepted the challenge and satisfy let's give to it charity. >> harris: but then she has to do it. she's chicken.
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>> tom: she should have done it. but here's the thing if she's going to be a successful politician she will get challenged to debate by a lot of people. >> harris: a local reporter challenged her, to figure out palestine wasn't a country. >> lisa: president trump weighing in on chicago, protesters call for rahm emmanuel to resign. do they and the president have a point? real cheese people are ham and swiss people. they're hot and cold. big and bold. but they would never make a sandwich with pasteurized process cheese food. sargento slices are 100% real, natural cheese. sargento, we're real cheese people. tap one little bumper and up go your rates. what good is your insurance if you get punished for using it?
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>> harris: president trump is weighing in on the crisis of violence in chicago after a deadly string of shootings. last weekend left at least 11 people dead, more than 70 people shot. protesters have been demanding mayor rahm emmanuel resign. the president not naming the mayor outright, but making it clear who he feels is responsible. >> president trump: we have to strengthen community bonds with law enforcement including cities like chicago which are an absolute and total disaster. we will be talking about chicago today. that is something that in terms of our nation nobody would believe could be happening. 63 incidents and 12 deaths last weekend. that's bad stuff happening. probably i guess you have to take from the leadership, bad leadership.
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>> harris: the home of former president barack obama and the former chief of staff for a former president now is the mayor. tom? >> tom: yeah, chicago has a real problem. what is unfolding there is absolutely a tragedy. i think it is preventible, in part. as to whether it's a failure of leadership, that is a large piece of it. mayor emanuel made significant changes within the police department that i think had the result of depressing morale within the force. i think he has fostered a culture of disrespect for law enforcement in the city. i'm hopeful they can turn it around. you're seeing criticism of the mayor from a diversity of people. chance the rapper has come out and said the mayor must resign. >> harris: and black pastors, one of gregory livingston i'll talk with next hour on overtime, led the charge to go into the tonier neighborhoods, lakeshore drive, and get other mayor's attention.
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we're trying to get rid of the guy on capitol hill, we'll march on your town to get attention, maybe you can talk to our mayor. >> katie: it's going to come down to better leadership, obviously, with the anti-police narrative. but also comes down to a massive cultural shicht the way they're prosecuted. chicagoans are terrorized by a handful of gang members running these communities. they continue to go through the prosecution system, they keep seeing the same people getting put into the system, prosecuted, then go to these judges who most of them are former public defenders and they let them off easy with easy sentencing, let them gout out of jail early f you look at the stories coming out of chicago and you read the local news it's the same names. you see these men commit horrific crimes, including attempted murder, they don't spend time in prison and they're back doing what they did before. >> harris: the president sat
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with black pastors, there seems to be, only a week or so ago, there seems to be on the ground in chicago an understanding of connection between the black church and clergy leadership and making a difference for young men in particular of color in chicago. so there is that desire to try and do that. the president had those pastors, i want to ask rev. livingston if he could accept help from across the political aisle. job creation, whatever it is that's coming, does it matter where the ideas come. it will be interesting. >> melissa: absolutely. when you look at the former police superintendent, running against rahm emmanuel, he has criticism for everyone around. and by the way, the murder rate was much improved under him before he was let go. at the same time he talked about the fact that mayor rahm emmanuel is looking outward. he's talking about president trump and focused on the environment. he's like please solve the problems happening under you. but president trump is promoting
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a rhetoric or tone that isn't bringing people together. it sort of, criticism for all sides, there is a textbook on how to solve this sort of problem, it starts with reaching out to the pastors. but it is internal and comes from the top and the mayor. >> and you talked about the anti-police sentiment, rahm emmanuel has said that the ferguson effect is real and police officers are in a fetal position. that is an interesting point. >> melissa: more outnumbered coming back. e a struggle? introducing ore-ida potato pay. where ore-ida golden crinkles are your crispy currency to pay for bites of this... ...with this. when kids won't eat dinner, potato pay them to. ore-ida. win at mealtime. potato pay them to. take prilosec otc and take control of heartburn. so you don't have to stash antacids here... here... or, here. kick your antacid habit with prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn.
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>> melissa: thanks to tom dupree, a lot of legal questions, glad you were here. >> tom: i hope i helped. >> melissa: we will be back here at noon on the couch on monday. for now, here's harris. >> harris: we begin with nancy pelosi's grip on power. could be in big trouble. let's go outnumbered overtime, i'm harris faulkner. democrats battling to retake congress and their leader could be facing a fight of her own. a growing number of democrats today distancing themselves from nancy pelosi as she's now the star in a slew of gop ads. nbc into news reporting more than 50 democrat candidates say they would oppose the california liberal as house speaker. 50, 5-0. that number could grow. all of this as progressive hero alexandria ocasio kor nez becomes the latest democrat appearing


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