neil: keep your friends' clothes, your enemies closer, and you're not so friendly numbers crunchers' -- keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and your not so friendly number-crunchers are around. the president is planning a prime-time news conference, it pushed the cbo director has already gone on record saying it is not all as cracked up. do you remember this? >> we do not see the fundamental

changes that would be necessary to reject the health spending by significant amounts, and on the contrary, the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs. neil: the cbo estimates it will create additional red ink. that figure could easily jump to $759 billion, so what is really going on here? let's ask our fox news contributor, a former white house press secretary, dana perino. did it ever occur to you when president bush was in office? >> i think it is highly unusual. i think it is likely inappropriate. i do not think anybody gets invited to come to the white house will ever turn it down, but i think it will possibly compromise the cbo director's independence.

that is a problem, and then he goes back to his office to write a blog in which she says how exciting it was to repeat -- need to be president, and i think that is not good. neil: doesn't put him in a position that whatever follow-up numbers -- does it put him in a position that whatever problem numbers he comes out with will have to be looked at with a grain of salt? >> those numbers are going to move very much, and it would be surprised if they do not move anything, and all of a sudden, the cbo says, "the costs are going to come down." it does not seem possible. if history is to repeat itself, in the past, it was the cdo that helped bring down the clinton push for health-care reform -- it was the cbo. neil: obviously, the president has argued that the health-care plan that he crafted together but top democrats is going to sit on a lot of money down the

road, and along comes the cbot said, "well, actually, it will not, and it could actually make things worse" along comes the cbo, which says that. >> it will be very valuable for the president. he is a curious person who will want to understand it. especially because he will have to stand up in front of the nation tonight and defend it. if he doesn't understand how the cbo came to the conclusion, it -- neil: is there protocol for this? i am sorry phrma protocol ignorance. -- i am sorry for my protocol ignorance. the president has his own budget by. he actually has quite a few of them, but a top guy, -- the president has his own budget guy.

now, could or should -- again, this is new territory -- that the president go to his white house budget guy, and they called the congressional budget office guy -- and they call. >> what is more troubling is that the speaker of the house and the president are asking them to take a vote on something when they do not have information. there are several different lines in the bill that they do not even know about, so whereas two weeks ago, president bush -- vice-president biden said they misread the economy, if that is true, then why would they ask members of congress to take a vote on something where they have incomplete information? that is something that does not make sense to me. that is a big hurdle that they will have to get over. neil: bottom line.

>> i do not know. i think tonight is a big night for him. i would not have had this this morning, because it clouds the perception. thank you. >> take the easy, will you? we just want to talk to you. >> i will tell you anything, tony, anything you want to know. neil: all right, do not laugh. what my next guest says what the president is doing is not all that different. have a sense of humor about this. who would know this better than jonny sax and "the sopranos"? you were the guy i thought of coming here. it is an honor to go to the white house. play it out. what is going on.

>> i am a roman catholic, neil. i know all about the messiah. i did not get the memo that he came back to visit. this idea of going back door, i did not get anything about this during the election or the campaign. did you? there is the old democratic machine. let's get it done. what i want to know is why does he want to get this all done with in the next two weeks. because congress goes on vacation? and this economy, congress should not have a vacation. -- in this economy. neil: sitting in the oval office. why can it not be a tony sopranos kind of thing -- tony soprano kind of thing? he is meeting with the guy.

we do not know this. :nhow did you arrive at the fat that we would not see savings? >> did not someone asked nancy pelosi that question the other day? >"we will cross that bridge when we get to it." what do you mean "we will cross that bridge when we get to it"? neil: you are an intimidating guy. you have a look. so i am thinking you really do not have to say anything if you have got the look, right? i am thinking you're a tough guy with your kids. how would you deal with someone who has argued that norma's precious program -- enormous pressures program -- you bring

them into the office. what do you do? give me your character's look. what would you do? >> this is going to go. am i right? and you have such lovely family. neil: he did not say "you have such lovely family." we do not know any of that occurred, but you are saying -- you do not have to stay alive. sometimes you can be intimidating. >> he will be in the company of the president for whatever, five minutes, one hour, whatever the heck it will be. neil: this is like when you come here to visit with me. you are clearly intimidated by me. ok, so the guy leaves the white house. he leaves the white house.

all right. he leaves the white house. nothing changes. "it was a great honor to go there." i have been to the white house many times. it is a great honor and experience to be a president, democrat or republican, and i have met them all since jimmy carter. so leave it at face value. >> again, let me go back to the campaign. where is the transparency? let me ask you this. why does this have to be done in the next two weeks? we have not had health care in this country and, when? is he worried that they will come back and they will not be as with them as they are today -- with him as they are today? neil: vincent, thank you.

you can catch him again this weekend on my we can show. ssbn will be covering this at 8:00 p.m. -- on my we can show. -- on my weekend show. fbn will be covering bessette 8:00 pm coming up on -- -- will be covering this at 8:00 p.m. that went well. taxpayers have had it, and now, they are letting their senators know. we're going to hear what the specific governor haley barbour has to say.

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deaf, hard of hearing and people with speech disabilities access www.sprintrelay.com. [captioning made possible by fox news channel] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> one republican senators said the other day, and i am quoting him now -- one republican senator said, "if we are able to stop obama on this, it will break him. it will be his waterloo. think about that. it is not about me." neil: maybe it is about him. it was said by a democrat that the presidency would be destroyed.

senator, always good to have you. what exactly did this guy say? >> you quoted accurately, and that is exactly what he said, and it came after the congressman made a statement about the fact that this bill is not going to pass the house of representatives in this form, and it has got to be changed, and that that congressman could not vote for it at that point, and then, the president said what you said, and i do not have to repeat that, because that is accurate. neil: i do not ever doubt you, senator. he is concerned that any breach of support on this is a personal break with him, and what is more, damning to him, right? >> well, you know, i would not have brought that up accept for the fact that the president said that about the waterloo comment -- except for that fact.

none of this should be personal. this thing has become too political. what we ought to do is look at the best principle of government, that is, and the best policy is the best policy. -- the best principle of government that is. neil: the man stood by the waterloo comments, and he said if you can stop this president on health care, you can stop is other big initiatives. he did not step back from that remark. is that the prevailing view among top republicans? this is sort of a watershed moment for republicans? to stop the big-government health-care push, or it is open? >> i think each item should be looked at on its merits. the stimulus bill is not working. we could attack the president on that.

we could attack on the fact that they are appropriate more money in the first seven months of this year than we did in the first five years of the bush presidency, and we can also look at it from the standpoint that even a lot of republicans, even a lot of conservative republicans -- in fact, i heard what yesterday say it -- we are wasting one-third of the money we are spending on health care. ok, if we agree that is the situation, should we not be looking at the issue and not the politics of it? neil: that is a good point. let me ask you about a certain meeting at the white house today what the cbo. what did you make of that? did it worry you? was it unusual? you know it better than i do. what do you think of it? >> i am sure that if anybody wanted the president to meet with them, you probably ought to do that. but there could be perceived of as of intimidation, but here is

what you want to look at. -- there could be perceived a little bit of intimidation. we are talking about a checks and balance situation. he is responsible to the congress. he should do nothing that jeopardize is that. and let me say something that i said -- he should do nothing that jeopardize s that. he was apologetic that it was taking him so long to get numbers, and i said to him, "you know, you are an independent person. you are supposed to be independent. how long it takes you to do your job is no concern of mine. the only concern of mine is that you're intellectually honest and that you make decisions based upon the facts and not because of democrat or republican pressure." and i think he has done that. neil: senator, for the present

it to just come out of curiosity, he is a very smart guy -- for the president to say, "i want to know how you arrived at the conclusion that is 180 degrees away from mine" -- what is to stop the president to say, "how did you arrive at that?" >> i think anyone in public service that makes a decision, unless the deal is national security, you ought to be very transparent, because the public t's visit ought to be transparent. you might be able to convince the president that he is wrong, but it is not just in saying it about senator kennedy's bill. you have got the mayo clinic, who has a very good program to enhance quality of madison and

reduce costs -- quality of medicine, and they are sitting there is no savings and the house bill as it is written, and you have ecb a guy saying it. neil: he says -- and you have the cbo guy sang it. -- saying it. neil: what would you tell them? >> you are not supposed to be politically influence. arrive at decisions that are honest with no pressure from anybody, and tell it like it is. in fact, i would tell him that he is like god, because what he says something caused is what it costs, and if we want to overrule him, it takes 60 votes in the senate, and it is impossible to do that. he should maintain his integrity. neil: gotcha. senator, thank you. all right, health care getting

very heated. demanding to know why he will be fined if he does not want health coverage. is one man jumping the gun? mississippi gov. haley barbour says, "big time." so, what's the problem? these are hot. we're shipping 'em everywhere. but we can't predict our shipping costs. dallas. detroit. different rates.

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>> i want to know. are you going to tell me, an individual, that i have to buy health care, or else you're going to find me? -- fine me? neil: the guy taking the heat is a democratic senator ben cardin. in maryland residents is with us.

-- a maryland resident is with us. robert, what did you get? >> essentially, center garden -- senator cardin said that if i got into accident and ended up in the emergency room, other taxpayers would pay for my irresponsibility. naturally, i did not get a chance to disagree. i have taken responsibility on myself. i am an individual. i am a grown adult. i feel i can take responsibility for my own health care and pay for my own health care costs. neil: so you were saying that that was your choice, not the government, strong-arm demands? tell me a little bit about what was going on. >> sure. there were several people who applauded. actually, the audience does not convey how many people were in the room.

many people were there from the sseiu from a group called health care now -- from theor)y seiu, i would say about one-fourth of the crowd broke out into applause, and that surprised me. they went through the different health care options and explained how wonderful it was going to be for everyone. pretty much everyone in the room was applauding senator cardin and the others. neil: we asked the senate to come on the show, but he declines, and they released this statement. this is what he said, i guess, to you. >> what happens if you get sick? what happens if you're in a car accident? or what happens if you happen to slip, and you have a broken bone, and you end up in the

emergency room? and you do not pay? you are a part of the population that ships their cost over to the person that does pay -- that shifts their cost of to the person that does pay. neil: that is what you told me. so we have a responsibility. we all pay into it. you just were not buying it. why not? >> well, again, as an independent person, the concept of independence means that you moved out of your parents' house. when you are a child, your parents provide for all of your needs, and you rely on them. when you grow up, and you move on, you take care of your own needs, any plan for the future. if you want to have insurance, you buy it for yourself.

i have made the decision on my part that since the economic downturn has hurt me and my family so much that that money i was spending on health insurance would better be spent on the immediate needs of daily living for me, including paying my mortgage, pay my utility bills, buying gas, and things like that, so the idea that i need the government to provide health care for me is just completely a foreign idea, and i am really shocked and amazed that such a large portion of the country is ready to turn over their rights, their freedom, and the basic responsibility for themselves to the government when they see how much the government has failed in everything it has done so far. neil: well, that perception could be changing, robert. we will see. thank you very much. >> thank you. neil: gov. haley barbour says, "not so fast."

and stop meddling in the automotive business. i want you to meet the angry automotive dealer. h

neil: well, apparently, you have been rescued. white house chief of staff rahm emanuel is a depressive will talk about rescuing the economy from the worst recession -- white house chief of staff rahm emanuel saying the president will talk about that. do you think you have been rescued? >> i am not surprised that he would say that or that the stimulus package is working because that is so obviously inaccurate. president obama is charming and charismatic. he is not going to be able to convince the american people that this economy is going in the right direction. it is just so obviously not accurate, so i would be surprised if he says that.

neil: what do you make of the fact of what rahm emanuel did? >> well, i have to say that politicians of got duped trust the public enough to tell the truth, he and the public knows that we are still shedding jobs. -- tell the truth, and the public knows that we are still shedding jobs. i hope it turns up next week. we need it to, but the fact is ishas not happened yet. neil: what they are saying is that the numbers are not as bad as they used to be. the monthly job losses are about 30% less than they used to be. what do you make of that, that this whole situation notwithstanding but the 2.5-plus million jobs lost since february and the double-digit unemployment for 15 states that things are bouncing from their lows? i think that is what they are saying. >> if that is what they are

saying, they are denying obvious. if you look at a graph of job loss, it is stable since he has been president. i am not trying to blame anything on him, but the fact of the matter is is that these job losses -- compared to the first year of the recession. i think most americans recognize that this stimulus was an enormous amount of spending, for which thus far we have that very, very little result. like i said. i hope it gets better. i hope we hit bottom and bounce back next week, but i do not think people anticipate that is going to happen. neil: you know,hel haley, i do not think people realize that after katrina, your state rebounded much more quickly. there were the stories of trailers that were abandoned

that were supposed to be homes for hurricane victims. at the time, you said it might have been a lesson in well intentioned but problematic big government, that sometimes too much is too much. now we have got health on steroids. what do you think about where this is going, not only in stimulus that has yet to be parceled out, but everything that is coming after? >> stimulus, on the bus, you name it, -- omnibus, you name it. spending trillions of dollars and a relative short period of time, which is the case, trillions, i cannot see how that cannot produce jobs -- in a relative short period of time. but we are spending an enormous amount of money and getting so little in return, and i do think

most americans are rightly very, very concerned about the spending, the ever-growing spending. they are concerned about the debt we are taking on, and they are concerned about the enormous tax increases that will come with it. you were talking to check grassley about it. small business is going to get clobbered -- you were talking to senator grassley about it. they are going to be fined. there are good to be expenses and taxes beyond anything that they can survive. we need to create jobs, yet when you make it more expensive to employ people, what do you get? you get fewer jobs, so between the energy policy and the health care policy, the taxes, spending, and deregulation that goes with it, the huge energy tax -- and the regulation that goes with it, the huge energy tax, maybe that is what the stimulus is not working.

neil: governor rick perry was leading the efforts in talking about what federal dollars are parceled out in texas, and governor palin in alaska before she steps down. what do you make of where states are sort of pushing their own individuality and say, "look. cool it. we will call the shots here, and we are very leery of you calling the shots.": >> they had about half the governors at a meeting, and there was a strong bipartisan, virtually unanimous concern that the health-care bill and the expansion of medicaid in it will end up being a huge, unfunded mandate for states, that states are going to get stuck with billions and billions and billions of costs to pay for

things. and that was not just conservative republicans like me. i believe -- every democrat governor there is very, very worried -- i believe that virtually every democratic governor there is very, very worried. i am also worried about the taxes, and i am worried that they are trying to rush this through congress before the american people know what is in it. now, if the american people really have a chance to understand what is in the energy packages and in the health-care package, i do not believe they have a chance, but i believe the democratic leadership in congress' goal is to do something. neil: are you going to run for president? >> this year or next year, i am focused on electing republican governors. we have two big elections, one in virginia. they will be close. i think any republican who is

thinking about or worried about are focused on 2012 does not have his eye on the ball. we need to win in 2009 and 2010. neil: all right, because the government in the white house now was seriously considering it. >> that is not the only one. i actually figure, honestly, that right now, it is more important for the country coming back and forth our party to come back and for conservatism to come back and freedom -- are the elections this year and next year. neil: all right, haley barbour, thank you very much. >> thank you, neil. neil: the car czar. and let me get this straight. law-abiding americans face a fine if they do not want coverage, but illegals, not proo?

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neil: all right, this is raising some eyebrows. law-abiding americans will pay a fine if they do not get health insurance under this plan, but illegals do not. a former house majority leader is with us. so, we checked into this, and the illegal immigrants in this would get a pass. maybe this is something they address down the road, but it

is weird. >> this is the kind of confusion you get when you have a government takeover of a sector of the economy in order to serve some sort of whimsical notion of social justice. you take the whole question of illegal aliens, and at the outset, the democrats have used them to inflate the number of the uninsured, but then they have turned around to legal citizens and residents and it said that health care now is being promoted from a right to an obligation, and if you do not fulfill it, even if you are a christian scientist, you are going to get a fine. neil: that is the quibble over this mathematics and the number of uninsured. some have it upwards of 14 million, or 20 million of those that are illegals. what do you think? >> we have studied this, and we know this to be the case.

to the embarrassment of the democrats. you have to understand something. this is going to be a harsh thing that i am about to say, but i believe it. i altogether believe it. they do not care about health care in america. they care about the government running health care in america, and if you do not think they will use all sorts of coercion to force people into their program and punish them if they dare to say no, look at what they already do about medicare. if there is nothing voluntary about this. this is about the government having control about a major sector of your life, a major sector of your economy, and you are paying the cost in terms of punishments meted out by the federal government. neil: giving a pass to illegals? compelling everyone else? >> it is hard for them to admit that we cannot find the

illegals in order to send them out of the country, and we cannot find them in order to impose the fine. how do we do a major takeover of the government without people finding out what it is, in fact, we are really up to? neil: we can find them if we want to give them a benefit, not if we want to punish them. a very good point. the car czar ron bloom ticked off about closing the dealerships. my next guest says this is a very weird, and he says it is the cars czar -- good to have you back. >> thanks for having me on.

i have to tell you that i am really surprised at this. this car czar thing, this guy was not elected. congress was elected by the american people. they represent us. they want to put them back in business. they want to employ those 200,000-plus people who have been out of work by these car czars and the obama administration. why would they think that congress is meddling? they are trying to do the right thing. neil: i knew you and a bunch of dealers who were forced to shut down went to congress. what does it tell you? barney frank, i think he told you, is open to hearing your case, and you have the car czar saying basically, "stop this." >> the car czar represents obama.

neil: have you ever been told what you were shut down? i know there are a lot of people who do not know you. you were shut down. >> it is completely outrageous. i was no. 72 in the nation. i was well-capitalized. i was a great dealer. there is no reason on god's earth and the great country of america -- in the great country of america. it does not hold any water. they wanted to combine the jeep with the chrysler-dodged down the street. ok, i will pay for it. -- chrysler-dodge down the street. it is ridiculous, because there are 34 stand alone jeep stores. that argument does not hold any water. neil: what are you doing? >> realistic, writing a book. i have been put in the forefront of this fight.

i get telephone calls and all of these people off the want me to represent them and make speeches. what has happened to me -- all of these people who want me to represent them and make speeches. we are losing it. this administration is out of control. i mean, this is an example. what has happened with bankruptcy court is crazy. what they did is they upset the entire bond rating system. when they put the secured creditors, all right, behind the unsecured creditors, who has heard of such a thing? how how do you break a bond? that company goes bankrupt. -- how do you rate a bond/ ? neil: they had to go to the back. >> there is a pecking order, and the pecking order was upset. they broke the system. neil: and you argue it is getting worse. >> it absolutely is getting morris.

you now have a car cz boot -- it is getting worse. you have a car czar -- mr. obama, you made a mistake. neil: thank you. always good seeing you. when we come back, i want you to meet the doctor -- (announcer) illness doesn't care where you live...

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neil: all right, we are just three hours away until president obama makes his pitch for health care, which you can watch on the fox business network, which if you do not have -- these guys need some health care to just rev up the energy here.

already, and he has one of the biggest medical group in the country, the american medical association, and he was part of that oakcrest medical association. he says it is going to lead to ration health care in america -- he was part of that august medical association. you just opted out. what? >> they do not represent practicing physicians, and many, many physicians across the country know that. the problem with the ama is that they want a seat at the obama table, but i hate to be old- fashioned about this, but what is bad for doctors is also bad for patients. doctors are already having a problem with the current insurance, medicare, medicaid. more than half practicing in the united states do not take medicaid. now, we have a very expensive insurance model in the country, and if we try to extend it to

the rest of the country, the government is going to try to control costs. that is what has happened and every other country like that. neil: they will send you will have more patients, more customers. >> i call that a medicare mill, and how are you going to control costs? you are going to ration. if i had more time, neil, i would be very honest with you, if i had more time, i would be more productive oriented. i would sit down with the patient and say, "what should we do?" i do not have that time now, and i will not have it then. what's more, what has been not have many primary-care doctors left in this country. 2% are going into primary care medicine. do you know what? he that expensive loans, and reimbursements are being cut. -- they have expensive clothes.

-- that expensive -- they have expensive loans. there'll be waits for gallbladder operations, procedures, and you know what is going to happen to me? i am going to be held liable. a diagnosis is undiagnosed? i go to court. i am very against that. i cannot believe the and they. neil: marc, all is good to see you. dr. marc siegel -- always good to see you. . . ñ?

. .

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and that's our policy. liberty mutual insurance. >> the number one issue facing our country in terms of health and wellness, and she has shown that she wasn't born this way, and not that she woke up one day and was obese. she is lazy and made poor food choices. neil: how do you know anything about her lifestyle? there are a lot of people that are a little fat and are very fit and people thin that are not so fit that. is a blanket indictment. >> i told the white house again, this time it is not over something i said but a guest said, the president's surgeon general is too fat.

regina benjamin is 40, 50 pounds too fat. i stressed that dr. benjamin has ample qualifications and might prove an ample and relatable role model for many people. many on the left and clearly all of the white house refused to hear that. they are furious, i'm told, one implying that my real intent was to go after the good doctor because she was african-american incredible. i did not hear the white house bitching at abc, which looked into the surgeon general's weight, or university of kentucky medical center professor james anderson who suggested the good doctor could set a good example like the pediatrician who told abc she lost 30 pounds to provide that good example for her patients, just as i have always said on this show, just as i have always attacked the food police for not saying, that fat people aren't lepers. a lot of them are leaders and shouldn't be judged by their

layers. my guest disagrees, saying that a surgeon general should walk the walk and talk the talk, preach fitness and be fit. i countered who says its if you're fat you're not fit? i kidded about my own weight and asked my guest to attack anyone's weight and that was the weight of the discussion and the weight of my argument and the white house is flat out lying to say otherwise, but i know the real skinny here, because this isn't about my segment. like i said, the white house didn't say boo about abc's segment, just mine. just fox. just desserts, i get. my spin is not telling the story and then arguing it, but the white house selectively going after me for doing it without even listening to it. i know, fat chance they would do otherwise. fat chance i'm even surprised that they are bold-faced liars and hypocrites for citing it.