tv FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace FOX News July 4, 2011 2:00am-3:00am EDT
♪ >> a human life lies in the balance. you're being asked to make the biggest decision of your life. you'r being asked to take someone's life, if you feel the evidence is where it deserved to be. >> judge janine: hello and welcome to a justice special, i'm judge jeanine pirro. and the prosecutor ashton began a powerful start to his case and what happened to little caylee. >> it's easy to be a parent when children are a joy and
children are fun. we know that being a parent is so much more than just playing with your children. this case is about the clash between that responsibility and the expectations that go with it and the life that casey anthony wanted to have. this is where the problem starts. cindy isn't allowing casey to go out and do what she wants and baby sit caylee. there's a tension there. the freedom that casey wants just isn't there anymore and she can't come up with a story to make it happen and casey's lies continues. there's a problem. the only way that casey's lies work is if caylee isn't talking. caylee's two and a half almost three, she's starting to talk. caylee is not going to cooperate. she can't, she doesn't know enough to lie.
and at some point, cayle is going to say something. casey meets tony. tony has this life. he's free. he's a club promoter. he's out there at night with the loud music and dancing and it's a great, free life, but that's not the life that casey has. because casey is a mom and that gives her responsibility whether she likes it or not. so she has a choice. a life tethered to a child or a life free to be 22. on june the 16th of 2008, casey left the house so she
knew that that night she would be in the arms of her boyfriend, that caylee would be dead. on the 17th, casey goes to the next-door neighbor and borrows a shovel because she thought briefly about burying caylee in the back yard, just like they buried their pet. apparently that was too much work for her, so she decided instead to just thrower in the swamp. on the 24th, houwever, she has a problem. the 24th is when she comes home and runs into her father, this is the gas can incident. so, on the 24th, she's got to come up with something for why caylee isn't with her. casey a smart. casey is quick. it is absolutely amazing how nimble casey anthony's mind is in the ability to come up with
an appropriate and believable lie in an instant. on july 15th, all hell breaks loose. the car is discovered, cindy is on a mission, cindy is going to find and see her granddaughter and she will not be denied and that's it, grabs casey, says, you will take me to my granddaughter now. she comes up with a new lie, yes, there's a vane, but vann vannie-- the problem . and caylee's remains were found and i guess you could say this is her koofrn. three pieces of duct tape, used unknowingly by her own father to display a photo of caylee. caylee marie anthony wearing the shirt she died, she died because her mother decided the
life she wanted was more important. >> we're joined by criminal defense attorneys, and fox news legal analyst bob massi and the new york city prosecutor, anna-sigga. i was kind of surprised that for the first time we heard the narrative and the jury heard bets and pieces and had to tie it together. what we heard from jeff ashton, a powerful, beginning to end, how she died, how, what the mechanism of death was, did the prosecution prove its case this morning, diana? >> well, i mean, obviously, it was a beautiful presentation by jeff ashton. he's a fabulous speaker. it was very organized, it was dramatic where it should be dramatic. but it was also subtle. you know, i've seen jeff in court go overboard sometimes, get overenthusiastic, there
was some real subtlety. and he didn't go out and call her a slut as she got called later. said i'm not saying that people at 22 out and partying is bad, but she's a mother. and he gotn information in an hour. >> he proved quickly. >> mark, do you think that he got the-- he established his mission? >> i believe that he did. certainly, with me individual will you, but i'm not on the jury and none of us your and we we have no idea what individually and collectively they are thinking. the only problem i found he was making vertical leaps that i don't know necessarily the evidence showed. for example, the whole motive that the child was beginning to talk and she was concerned the child would expose the lies and i went yes, and thought of my children, when they were two years of age and
it's terrible twos and i'm not sure they established that. and the defense scored points, sailing she's a loving mother, that's a problem. >> bob massi, i'm going to you. is there any way the prosecution could have described that theory without inferring a few things that now the child was learning to talk, now we need to keep her quiet because she's going to spill the beans on me? >> no, no, i don't think so. remember, one thing, judge. trials are about two p's, persuasion and perception. i thought he teed it up perfectly. what he did for the jury, including that issue, he gave them a logical stream of consciousness and i actually believe he set up perfectly by not giving too much away, setting it up so that the defense lawyers have to come back and make their case, but i thinkou will see the fire and brimstone now on rebuttal.
i thought he teed it up, from my perspective, perfectly. >> anna, quickly, how do you think that jeff ashton did this morning? >> in one word, i think it was masterful. he did a fantastic job of bringing it together. >> we'll have more closing arguments coming up, plus, how did the jury react to the summation? stay with us, a closing argument continues. you go next if you had a
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person who put the tape on, which we know is not true, or roy crock put the tape on. you can't do both. the arguments made by the defense in this case, i would submit, requires you to suspend your common sense, to leave in pinellas county everything you know about how people think and act and why they do what they do. it is a trip down the rabbit hole, into a bizarre world where men who love their granddaughters find them drown and do nothing. where men who love their granddaughter, take an accident, a completely innocent act, and make it look like a murder for no reason. a world where a man who buries his pets, will take the granddaughter who was the love
of his life, and throw her in a swamp. >> diana, and mark, bob massi and anna-sigga are back with us. there you had jeff ashton with a little more fire and brimstone saying you know, enough is enough about that cronk and george anthony stuff. did he disspell any in their minds, in george being involved and cronk burying the body. >> the way he put it together, he showed how they make no sense and you've got to piecemeal, piece by piece, during the defense. but the way that jeff ashton put it together for the jury, i hope they walk away saying, now we have it all, their theory on it and the way he puts certain pieces together, is unbelievable to me. >> judge jeanine: and mark, when you said that, you said yes when jeff are started
putting some of the tape together. i've got to tell you shall i doing the same yes, all of us have questioned, do it make sense, does that make sense. so, mark, to you, do you think he's put away the cronk and the george anthony pieces of their involvement in this case? >> for me, he did. and i certainly hope so. who put it away was baez. one day you had george testify and he looked like he was lying about the affair, but the defense in one of the most colassel mistakes ever called him the very next day and then asking one question too many and do things that residential a rookie lawyer would do. we all saw a loving grandfather who never would have done what he was allegedly. >> judge jeanine: do you agree that baez made some blunders and opened the door to the prosecution coming in and creating the victim that we're looking at right now, of george anthony? >> yeah, the fact that he
can't ask george the hard questions when him on the ropes over the affair blew me away. i totally agree with mark, i with as screaming at the scream, open the door. the cronk thing ink is not as clear-cut. you have krorpg at the scene, moving things around, lots of water, weird stuff out of cronk. i think that the defense might have the body moving around enough and the tape isn't as important. maybe some fuzziness there, but the jurors need to let that go. >> judge jeanine: bob, i'm going to you on the cronk thing. go ahead. >> i wanted-- can i comment on george real quick. >> judge jeanine: sure. >> i'm sorry. you know, i have to tell you, yeah, i do think they've put it away, but i have four grandchildren and here is what i don't get, judge. if i had-- if they all lived in legislation. if i had not heard from my
grandchildren, wouldn't be an i believe to talk to them once in a while. what i can't-- no disrespect to the grandparents. 30 daes has gone by, i'm on the hunt, i am on the had unt. there's no question they put away the issue with george. that's ridiculous, but i can't by into it that this girl could manipulate these two people who love that granddaughter, for 30 days, something screwy there. what you're saying is exactly what the defense wants you to do, whether george and cindy should have reacted-- >> wait a second, you asked me the question, i'm telling you. i'm not buying into it. from a human protect-- >> it's a dysfunctional family and just the parent, grandparents, looked for her
and trying to contact her and cindy went to universal, here i am, i'm going to see her, she's an adult and this is her child and ultimately brought this to the attention of the police. >> does cindy looks like the kind of woman that sits back and not take control of things. he's not going to sit back-- >> hang oon. stay with us. the details of little caylee's death is heart breaking. will the snir find guilty. service was very moving, wasn't it? yes, it was. i'm so glad we could be here for larry. at a time like this, friends and family matter most. even preparing this lunch is a help, emotionally and financially. mm, it's true. i was surprised to hear there was no life insurance. funerals are so expensive. i hope larry can afford it.
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the casey anthony case. now, we've heard parts of the state's summation and now to the defense. but jose baez was dealt two blows before the day even started. >> there is's absolutely no evidence that the defendant was sexually molested by her father or her brother. >> judge perry rules the defense cannot claim sexual abuse by george or lee in their closing and they cannot use a photo of a younger casey anthony. >> what troubles me you've got the photograph from 2001 as opposed to something at age 22 that they're just disstarts reality. >> judge jeanine: but then baez began. >> here we are at the end of our journey and i have to tell you the one question will never be answered, how did caylee die?
what happened to her? you see the strategy behind that is if you hit her and think she's a lying no-good slut then you'll start to look at this evidence in a different light. aen start to, oh, wait a minute maybe i'm seeing that's not there and starts to actually discriminate against her. casey has issues and these issues were there long before caylee was ever born and i don't think before june 16th, 2008. we all know casey acted insproeply and did it, and made some mistakes and bad decisions. i'd like to call this next stage the state's fantasy of forensics. situations like fantasy searches, fantasy forensics, fan of stickers, fan of stain, all of this on--
and no dna, no fingerprints, but she's a liar and a slut, convict her on that, but you've heard all of these stories about what stindy said. but by the end of this case, they are impeaching her, they want you to know she's a liar, oh, but believe what she says for us. we're able to uncover something that was highly unusual. and that was finding an absolutely photograph of seeing ka cale open up the back door. there is the proof she could easily get outside, there is the proof she was big enough and strong enough to open the door. you can't get anything better than that. >> judge jeanine: our legal panel is with us now. diana, i'm going right to you.
what about the fact that the judge starts today by saying i'm not going to let you get anything in or talk about sexual abuse by george anthony or lee anthony. were you surprised? >> no, in fact, i thought the glass was half full. i was shocked he let them talk about the drowning, honestly, there really wasn't an iota of evidence. if they have that evidence then every family that's not a pool and a child dies you getted to argue drowning. i was supposed the judge gave him that. different the box he sawed himself in and he's not a particularly great organizationed speaker, i thought he made some really good points. i wish shed gun-- i wished they were condensed now, when they quoted "to kill a mockingbird," i was thinking about washington-- >> was it a good idea for jose
baez to refer to his on client as a lying no good slut. >> absolutely, do that on all of my choices, even when they're due. no, obviously, you need to deal with the gorilla in the room. call her out on it and she is a lying slut you ever however, she's not a murderer. >> what about the fact, bob massey they tried to get in a photograph of hers that was ten years old. is by he have kris or-- >> how he thought he was going to get it from this judge, it was to me pretty amateur and obviously, again, that didn't help. i've got to tell you, judge, i thought the guy, he was not the greatest on presentation and he had some problems and i think the guy go okay with what he has to deal with. >> harris: anna, did he do
somebodying. >> if you put it into the trial. i think that jeff ashton is going to get up there and hit a home run. and the one thing to go back to, i'm not surprised by judge perry, murder one case and great for the prosecution because now they can repeat it and so it was disproven. >> all right, listen, we will come back with our panel and the one, the last thing i'm going to say just because you're standing in front of a door and holding it doesn't mean are' opening it. coming up on close are arguments, we're heard from the state and next her team. we'll have a reaction with today's closing argument with two men in the news room and
>> welcome back to a justice special, i'm judge jeanine pirro. >> the defense once again goes after charge anthony. >> why is he laying about that duct tape? he know, he knows' the only one connected to the ticket tape and he's been by the media-- that that was his and you heard sicindy anthony agree he is only had one duct tape. this man doesn't have an ounce of paternal instincts. and got up here and testified
about, it's all about himself. self-serving, self-preservation document. the walls are getting closer and closer to george anthony, what does he do? he gets a six pack of beer with the blood pressure medications and claimed to have submit suicide and george protecting george and throwing casey under the bus. if there's one thing you know about this family they don't nined putting on another face. highs are what pumps and what lives within this family. they knew where she was. and they were out there searching. what do you think the adds are that they would search at the same exact spot where she would be found a month later? is that a coincidence? and remember, caylee was found with no socks or shoes.
one fact i forgot to bring up when i was talking about the pool. that's consistent with things at home, things don't make sense. there's reasonable daut. you can't trust this evident, you can't. >> judge jeanine: our legal panel back with us now. all right. bob, let me go to you first. >> sure. >> judge jeanine: anna and i were sitting here in the studio shaking our heads and this has taken so many incoming shots. are you priced he did attempt suicide, but if you look at baez, he says he didn't. >> the body blows this poor guy has taken, unbelievable. i must tell you, judge, i really think on this issue today, he went overboard. there is a point, there is a point that you have to respect that he is the grandfather to this baby that's dead. he crushed that. he took away the reverence of that relationship and it was too much, i think it was a little offensive if not a lot
offensive to many, enough is enough with george. >> okay. mark eyeingle, i'll go to you, not only that, but he started the opening and said that every morning before she got on the school, casey had to serve her father. what do you think that the jury is thinking about this? >> that's the million dollar gre. that argument didn't resonate with me. i found an offensive. bun that will resonate with the jury, little caylee up on the ladder in the pool almost putting in mind this actually could have happened for me, i thought it was absolute malarky, having a faef of her climbing a ladder and being in a pool no more proves the -- >> what about the fact that the defense is showing through pictures inu endo. because you have little caylee
in front of a sliding glass door, they want you to believe she opened up. because her grandmother is hiding from going up the ladder into the pool. and i think you could use the words, she dives in the pool. >> like i said. does that mean anytime you have a child that dies under suspicious circumstances, have a pool that everybody is free and clear? and kept saying over and over again, we don't know how the child died. wait a minute, you told the child died at an accident. why do you keep significant. >> and at least stick with that opening. thank it's part of his fansy, phantom, everything, you would think is he making any sense in tying his own case together. >> no, in fact the other way. the accidental drowning, if
there's an accidental drunk, lead back to george. no, it showed that she had access because it's in the girl's car. and she's the one that ain't to her being guilty, going to one piece, and give jeff ashton the possibility and through the defense, to go through every door right to a verdict. >> and tomorrow, fire and brimstone with jeff ashton? >> whout having, it could be linda, not jur who is giving it, you're going to find if they believe in their case was, when you looked in jose's eyes you don't feel he believed his client was innocent, a tragedy, a miscarriage of justice that the child really did drown and his parent was charged with murder. you never felt that and that's important to feel. >> and i think tomorrow,
diana, we'll put a wash on this for prosecution. >> it's hard to imagine that linda bird will not do the closing this was been her baby and jeff ashton was taking notes and tomorrow they may end up in jail if things get more fiery than they did today. >> judge jeanine: kudos to the judge getting more heated. thank you for being with us tonight. >> thank you. >> judge jeanine: coming up, casey's lies were a men
>> closing arguments continue tomorrow and judge charges the jury and then they begin deliberating. our next guests have been watching the jury's reaction. susan constantine and howy bristol are with us. guys, i want you to look at jeff ashton talking about casey and then get the jury's reaction, let's take a look. >> casey is smart. casey is quick. it is absolutely amazing how nimble casey anthony's mind is
in the ability to come up with an appropriate and believable lie in an instant. she's impressive. imagine being able to remember the lies you told a year ago and incorporate that into a new lie, that's really quite impressive. >> judge jeanine: all right, quite impressive. you were in the courtroom watching the jury. how did the jury respond to that argument? >> you know, judge, this is a jury i would not want to play poker with any single one of these people. throughout the day today, this is what i saw. back and forth watching between the attorneys and every now and then you might see a slight smirk, particularly, if you really think about it, in a way the prosecutor was sort of giving a backhanded complimt and at that time i think i noted a smirk or two with them saying how smart casey was and
obviously iwasn't smart for the right reasons, it was to be smart getting through the lies she's been telling. >> and susan, who should the prosecution worry about? we've got up on the screen, obviously blocked out, but the individual jurors. i mean, you've been in the courtroom, we've been in there together and susan, who do you worry about for the prosecution? >> for the prosecution, the one i'm going to worry about the most dangerous juror is juror number five. every time the defense, he feels like theefense made a home run making notes with it. and i did a scientific jury selection with her and she scored extremely high for the defense and she's definitely defense. and juror number two and three, also, that little cluster there, that little group there, all three of them are very, very strong defense jurors. >> judge jeanine: interesting, all right. juror two of course is someone who has never served on a jury
before and he says that god is the only one that makes a final judgment, but all of these jurors are death qualified meaning they're willing to impose that if they need to and of course, juror number three is a student in a nursing program. i know my ignorance works in my favor. well, we'll see. jeff ashton today talked about the duct tape as a murder weapon. let's take a look at this one. >> why would you put duct tape over the face of a child? well, there's two reasons, one is perhaps to silence them, but then why do you need three? remember, this case, there wasn't one piece of duct tape placed over caylee's face, there were three, overlapping at angels, placed over her face. you need three because your purpose is not to simply
silence the child, your purpose is to make sure the child cannot breathe. one, two, three. and then the child dies. >> judge jeanine: wow. you've got the prosecutor describing the actual act of murder, the number of pieces of duct tape. holly, how is the jury responding to this one? >> you know, judge, this was right around 10:30 this morning and it was around, if not half the time that the jury typically gets a little mid morning break, and i noticed them getting very fittingy, i didn't notice any facial expressions or anything like that, but this is the first time during this trial that i have noticed at least half the jurors starting to move around in their seats a little more. getting morefigetty.
and i've heard this, we're in the home stretch, let's get it over. >> judge jeanine: is that why they' they're figeting? or how did that play out? >> you're right, we're kind of seeing them getting figety and juror 5 rubbing they are hands together when hearing information from the defense side and the ladder and worry she expressed in their hands and right now they've checked out and they've made up the decision. >> and do you think that they-- >> you think they've already made up their mind here? >> susan? >> yes, i do. in fact, right at the very beginning, yes, i do. in fact, we know that actually, after those opening statements most jurors have decided guilt or innocence at that point in time.
so right now all they're doing is it tying the knot together and doing the checks and balances and frankly most all of them have made up their mind and want to get back and decide exactly how they're going to vote to be able to come to a verdict. >> okay. all right. coming up, we're going to see how t jury reacted when the george anthony issue was brought up.
the tape and so that caylee went peacefully, without fear, but go she did. and she died because she could not breathe. she died because she had three pieces of duct tape over her nose and mouthnd she died because her mother decided that the life that she wanted was more important. >> wow. holly we can only hope that caylee went peacefully. that's powerful stuff. jury reaction? >> it's powerful stuff and remember, judge, this is the word. the key word there is hopefully. remember, the state has been saying all along caylee was killed with chloroform and they're saying hopefully backing up a little bitment another one of those moments the second the chloroform was
brought up. the jurors were back and forth, very, very intently looking at the prosecutor and what he was saying at this point, but i will have to note one thing, as much as they were listening and paying very close attention, juror 14 was the only one who was taking notes at this point. in fact, the judge, he was the only one that i noticed taking notes this entire day. nobody else took notes today. did you notice the same thing? >> that's correct. yes, that's absolutely correct. >> judge jeanine: of course, juror 14 is an alternate and for an all we know that juror will never be called into the deliberation room. susan, in the description of how death occurs, how do you think the jury reacted to it? >> well, again, holly is right we both were in the courtroom watching the jurors respond and all they really did, they just paid really strong attention to the attorney and they just moved their head back and forth. >> judge jeanine: okay, again. >> listening intently and no one was taking any notes. >> judge jeanine: no real
emotion, okay. >> they were veryserious. >> judge jeanine: all right. now,let's talk about george anthony, he's been a huge part of the trial so i'm interested in hearing how the jury reacted to him, brought up a lot again today. let's take a look at this. >> you saw the pain, you saw the anguish, you saw the questions that he wanted answers to. he didn't know. and you have his suicide note. an january of 2009, george anthony was ready to end his life, to be with caylee. no way, the man that wrote that note knew anything about what really happened to his granddaughter and that's what was killing him, he didn't know. >> susan, based upon what you know of the jury that you've been watching for all these weeks, is there a jury that based upon your looking at and
knowing what they do for a living, is there a juror that-- a juror that totally agrees with that. >> susan? >> yes, you know, it's interesting, you know, two of my favorite jurors on there are actually alternates and looking at them, the thinker jurors, number 10 and 11. and paying attention and juror number 14 got angry when they heard this and shifting and did not agree with jose baez. >> in terms of juror number 11 and we've talked about him. holly, wasn't he one of jurors throughout the trial leaning forward, kind of younger guy, very aggressive and got the sense he was the alpha, might be the foreman. what do you think, holly? >> i would be willing to bet some serious money he is the foreman of the jury. this guy has been paying very close attention to everything.
he does get figete at times and whoever happens to be talking, noticed throughout the day, everybody seemed to be getting super figety, i don't know if they're uncomfortable with the suicide note or if we've heard this before, wrap it up, guys, that's my question. >> judge jeanine: and holly-- >> and the juror-- >> i've got, i want to thank you and i'm going to see you tomorrow in orlando. thanks for being with us, holly and susan. all right, finally, my thoughts. for more than a month we have he a been transfixed by this case and the harsh reality that a two-year-old was killed. the media has covered this like a sporting event. the scenes play out like a soap opera. we witnessed firsthand the battle ground the fight between good and evil unfolds
every day, and we've watched the prosecution and we've watched the defense, wagering who is winning and who is not. and we've watched the anthony family, live out their own personal nightmare. but this is not a soap opera, it's not a sport. this is about a two-year-old who speaks to us from the grave about her death, the only thing left her skull and bones. we cannot undo what was done to her. we cannot turn back the hands of time. we cannot take away her pain, but what we can do is hope that this jury will cooley, calmly and rationally analyze the evidence, what makes sense and what doesn't, what red wings true and what tonight. what we can do is hope that this jury will bring justice to a little girl named caylee. that's it for us tonight. thanks for joining us. thanks for joining us. geraldo rivera up next.