tv Prime News HLN July 9, 2009 5:00pm-6:38pm EDT
desperately trying to save the king of pop, a stunning report that janet jackson attempted an intervention two years ago, but failed. what went wrong. kids turned away from a swimming pool. was it because of their race. a day care center with african-american students says members of the swim club made racist comments and the guy in charge even said the kids changed "the complexion of the pool." you are an important part of this show. give us a call, 1-877-tell-hln. e-mail us at cnn.com/primenews. or text us at hlntv. start your message with the word prime, this is your chance to be heard.
-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com welcome to "prime news." i'm vinnie politan in for mike galanos. a stunning report in an attempt to save michael jackson years before his tragic death. two sources close to the jackson family tell cnn his sister janet tried to stage an intervention in 2007, with the help of some of her brothers. but her plan backfired. michael reportedly told his security guards at his home in las vegas not to let the family members in. then this twist. "people" magazine reported it, and members of the jackson family released this statement, denying planning, participating, or even having any knowledge whatsoever about an intervention. but janet didn't sign the statement. joining me now with more, natisha lance, producer for "nancy grace." dr. reef karim, a psychiatrist and addiction specialist. and editor for us weekly cover.
us weekly's cover stor, truth about the kids hits newsstands today. natisha, what is this 2007, an intervention, sister janet trying to get this thing going? what happened? >> more and more keeps coming out, vinnie. 2007, janet jackson paid a visit to her brother, michael jackson, she found him to be very emaciated and took it upon herself to try to decide to stage an intervention with the help of some of her brothers. they were apparently not on board. michael jackson apparently caught wind of this. he told his security officers around his home not to let any family members. if they came by. also he was not taking calls from his mother, katherine jackson. and on further note, as you had mentioned, "people" magazine ran a story about this alleged intervention that was supposed to take place, and what ended up happening the family released a statement there was not going to be an intervention, everybody signed it except janet jackson.
>> do we have any idea the planned intervention, what it was he was supposedly addicted to? >> we tonight know what he was addict to. we have to keep in account here, vinnie, this is one of many stories we keep hearing about. first it was a mini clinic he was traveling with in the mid-'09s during the history tour. he was traveling with an anesthesiologist. last night dr. klein said he knew michael jackson was taking diprivan in germany while on tour. we also heard reports from dr. klein saying michael jackson had sought to go through withdrawal in england and completely off of drugs at one point in time. so now more and more reports are still coming out about michael jackson. and it is this investigation is still ongoing. the dea is involved in the use of diprivan, looking into what drugs were possibly used with michael jackson by doctors. five doctors being investigated, two of whom sources confirmed to cnn dr. arnold klein as well as
dr. conrad murray. >> melanie, does this surprise you? does this shock you? or did we all sort of know something was going on here? >> we've known about this. the family actually tried to do interventions on many, many occasions and failed. and lots of people have come forward and talked about -- friends have talked about how concerned they were about his drug use. and said when he tried to tell michael to stop, that's when michael distanced himself from him. i think this kind of illustrates like the nature of celebrity. this is michael jackson who surrounded himself by people who would say yes to him all the time. and when anyone told him, that actually he had to stop, that's when he would cut people off. this is something that we've had over and over, he had problems for years, people tried to stop him. but he just wouldn't listen. >> dr. reef kareem, great to see you again. tell us about doing an
intervention on someone like michael jackson. is it different than just doing an intervention with a regular family member who isn't a pop icon, or is there something different in this equation here? >> absolutely. interventions are complicated as it is. you're taking someone wh's very diseased itself, is causing the brain to not really think appropriately. to reason out why they might not have a problem. to put them in denial. you've got that problem as it is. then on top of it, you've got the enabling entourage, is what i call it, which is essentially all of these handlers, all of these people that are essentially making money off of, you know, a really wonderfully talented person who has a problem. so i don't treat michael jackson, but i do treat many other celebrities that have this similar issue. which is you've got to get past the handlers. you've got to get past the bodyguards. >> how do you pierce the entourage, dr. karim? >> you've got to get a fine-tuned missile to get in
there. usually that's a family member. you have to get the person they value, a brother, sister, mom or dad. something in them wants to get better. i really believe that. so each person has their own thing that they value that you have to get to. and often it's a family member that helps you get there. >> i'm looking at this case, i'm still touched by the memorial, when we saw paris up on the stage, his daughter and his children. all, are, he was a daddy, a great daddy to these three children. but does someone who is suffering from this addiction, like jackson, apparently was, can he not see the effect and the potential devastation that it could all have on his children? >> yeah, that's a great question. because you would think kids, i mean, that's the ultimate value. you're a father, you're raising kids. you think that would absolutely do it. but don't forget, drugs cloud europe judgment. they cloud your thinking. they take you over. it's like it's hijacking your
brain. and completely making you think differently than you would normally think. you're possessed almost. you're a different kind of person when you're under the influence of drugs. if you don't get help, if somebody doesn't intervene on you, you're going to keep riding the roller coaster ride that you're on and sometimes it has really, really bad effects. like we're seeing here. >> let's take a listen. last night on "larry king live," dr. around klein, the dermatologist, also a friend of michael jackson, was seemingly very candid about michael jackson and some of the issues that he's had. take a listen to him here talking about how michael went to the uk to get off of drugs. >> michael at one time had an addiction. and he went to england and he withdrew that addiction in a secure setting, where he went off of drugs all together. what i told michael when i met him, in this present situation when i was seeing him, that i had to keep reducing the dosage of what he was on, because he came to me with a huge tolerance
level. >> a big tolerance level. that's another issue i want to talk about. we're talking about michael jackson, again, janet jackson apparently tried to intervene and set up something with her brother, her family, to get to michael back in 2007. we don't know, it didn't work. we'll talk about it. don't go anywhere.
include your name and state if you have room. we'll be showing those text messages throughout the show. tonight we're talking about a planned intervention back in 2007, sister janet jackson, along with some of her brothers, but it didn't work. it failed. it failed. michael jackson locked his family out, told his security team, handlers, do not let my family members in here. unbelievable. still with us, our panel. now, this comes to a bigger issue, though. yes, we're talking a lot about michael jackson and we're trying to figure out what was going on in this pop icon's life. but this also gave an opportunity for the u.s. drug czar to speak out and talk about how badly this country is suffering from overdoses. take a listen. >> as recently as looking at 2006 data, more people were dying of drug overdoses than were actually dying from gunshot wounds in the united states. i think that should tell
everybody, and certainly michael jackson's very sad -- the loss of him is a wakeup call to this country. >> absolutely. absolutely. that's a shocking statistic. guns, less lethal than drug overdoses in this country. dr. reef karim, what is the trigger for someone who's battling an addiction? michael jackson, according to dr. arnold klein, goes over to the uk, cleans up, but it seems like something may have happened again here that triggers it. what is it? >> let's just call this out. flat out, we're in a prescription pill epidemic in this country. i mean, fatal overdoses from unintentional drug use, doubled between 1999 and 2004. over 6 million people are using prescription pills for nonmedical reasons. we always think about pot with younger people as a major problem, guess what, now prescription pills are being abused and started more than people than smoking pot. this is all over the place. what's the trigger for
addiction? it's not like addicts are walking around with a big "a" on top of their forehead. we don't know who addicts are. you find out when they take the pills. you find out when -- some people have a genetic predisposition, their family members are alcoholics. some have mental health disorders. some don't have the coping skills or conflicts or they survive a tragedy and then they use to self-medicate. there are so many different reasons that people end up abusing pills, based on access and based on mental health issues, you can't predict it. all you can do is try to have family members around people, you try to minimize it the best way you can. and most importantly, you try to get treatment. if you see somebody who does have a problem. >> having family members around, seemed like michael jackson was pushing them away when they talked about this issue. let's take some phone calls. we've got linda in california tonight. linda, you're on the air. >> caller: good evening. this is vinnie. >> yes it is, linda.
>> caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm calling from vancouver, can ka da. you have a really big audience up here. i'm exasperated over this whole situation. not to speak ill of michael after his passing. but we all know michael died from a long-term drug addiction. and the core of addiction is -- usually they start, yeah, they're trying to kill pain, whether it's physical, psychological, often guilt involved. but the addict is going to get their drugs daily, no matter what. with michael's resources, he apparently moved his supplier, be it the doctors, in his home, took them on tour with him. had no problem getting what he wanted. and that is the core of addiction. an addict is going to be self-serving. and it's very sad that these people all around him did not -- you know, i'm sorry, but it is all about the money. they were all getting paid. people still want to get paid
after michael's gone. including his disgusting father. >> he had power, he had access to money. and access to money and power gives you access -- easier access for whatever he wanted. linda, thanks so much for the great call. we're going to have much more on this intervention. of course, we want to hear from all of you. give us a call, 1-877-tell-hln.
did michael tell you he used diprivan? >> i knew at one point he was using diprivan when he was on tour in germany. so he was using it, with an anesthesiologist, to go to sleep at night. i told him he was absolutely insane. i told him with this drug, you can't repeatedly take. what happens with narcotics, no matter what you take, you build a tolerance to them. >> more evidence michael jackson was using diprivan. at least at some point.
natisha lance, what is the evidence that we have now that diprivan may be connected here somehow? >> well, the evidence that we have right now, according to the associated press, diprivan was found at michael jackson's home that he was renting in holmby hills for # $00,000 a month. and other reports from dr. around klein that he saw michael jackson -- or witnessed michael jackson using diprivan while he was on tour. and countless tales of him using diprivan. you talk about the doctors and who's prescribing these, we've heard about at least three doctors and a nurse so far who are surrounded with michael jackson and possibly prescribing him medication, prescribing him drugs. there had to be many, many more. this investigation i imagine would take quite some time to get to the bottom of who is prescribing these drugs, what were his aliases, if he had any. and what caused his death. >> absolutely. let's take a phone call. we've got gloria who's in florida tonight.
good evening, gloria. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. >> sure. >> caller: first of all, i am very angry that the media used to be so naive about the -- >> which disease, gloria? >> caller: the lupus. do you know anything about lupus at all? >> i know very little about lupus. >> caller: well, i am a patient. my family, my sister has it. she's had many surgeries as michael has had. i have it. i refused to have the surgery. but i carry around bags of medications. my family has so-called intervention with me. they took the medication from me at one point and i couldn't even walk. i'm a woman with two doctorate degrees. highly professional. but it's not the addiction to the medication, it's the fact that when your body gets to a certain -- >> you're saying you need it. did you ever use diprivan, gloria? >> caller: listen, listen.
you have different doctors. i have a rheumatologist that treats me. i also have a dermatologist. i have a primary physician that tries to coordinate everything. now, no, i refuse to have the surgery. >> okay. gloria -- >> caller: my skin changes. but you all don't even begin to understand. >> we're trying to understand, gloria. that's why we're talking about it tonight. thank you so much for the call and giving us that information. let's go to dr. reef karim. doctor, where is the line between someone who needs the medication, someone who is suffering and needs it, and someone who is an addict? where is that line if you're suffering from something like lupus? >> yeah, your caller makes a good point. lupus being an autoimmune disease, you can have pain. it's a chronic medical illness. it really comes down to who's monitoring this. and that's why in my profession as a doctor, i mean, you have a
primary doctor. that primary doctor should be the gatekeeper on, okay, these are the meds the person's taking. they should not be doctor shopping and getting meds from other doctors. we hear about, you know, these people that have like six, seven, eight doctors and 20 medications in their arsenal. >> what you're saying is the way they control it, one doctor in charge of all the other doctors. i wanted to bring back in melanie on this. melanie, do we know if michael jackson had lupus? >> yes, dr. klein said he diagnosed him with that. but michael jackson, we're talking about how somebody gets all the medications that they get. michael jackson, remember, let a nomaddic life, he was in ireland, all over the place. >> we're going to take a quick break and have much more on all this. don't go anywhere, folks. i'll clean the pool if you clean the windows.
you're done? she pulled a fast one! ( laughs ) new windex outdoor all-in-one. a streak-free shine in half the time. s.c. johnson, a family company. welcome back to "prime news." we're following the memorial for steve mcnair, the former nfl quarterback was shot and killed saturday in a murder-suicide. what possessed mcnair's mistress to kill him, then kill herself. 1-877-tell-hln. outrage over allegations of shocking racism near philadelphia. a day care center says its children were turned away from a swimming pool because of their race. the center paid for 65 kids to use the pool at a private swim club. one day a week. but the kids were booted right from day one. the center says club members made racist comments about the african-american kids. and get this, the club president, the guy in charge, said the kids changed "the
complexion of the club." cnn tried to speak with him today, but he said he had no comment. and asked cnn to leave the property. joining me now with more on this, criminal defense attorney, pamela hayes. but first, we start with cnn correspondent susan candiotti who went to the day care center today to find out what exactly happened. susan, what's going on down there in philly? >> reporter: it's a complicated issue. but to put it simply is this, a day care center from the philadelphia area had signed a contract with the director of the valley club here. for 65 day care center kids. these are mainly minority and hispanic kids to come here and swim once a week for the summer. when they arrived, they said some of the children were up at the pool and heard comments that included this. what are you black kids doing here? you might steal something. or they're worried about being
harmed. i interviewed some of the children about that. they reported it to the adult who was with them. that woman said that the pool's director told her that he was embarrassed about what had happened, went back to the board. however, the board said that their contract was being declined. the money was returned to them. and they were not allowed to come wack. fast forward. when asked for an explanation, the club's director allegedly told some local media here that the decision was made that the kids had changed "the atmosphere and complexion of the club." the club late today issued a statement denying there was any racism at all involved in this. that in fact the pool was simply overcrowded. and that's why they returned the money to this particular day care center. however, that's not the end of the story. the pennsylvania human rights commission announced late this afternoon that it has begun an investigation because of media reports, and because of a request by the naacp, and that it will thoroughly investigate
these allegations. >> wow. what we wanted to do is read that complete statement that the valley club did post on their website. the valley club is deeply troubled by the recent allegations of racism, which are completely untrue. we had originally agreed to invite the camps to use our facility, knowing full well that the children from the camps were from multi-ethnic backgrounds. unfortunately, we quickly learned that we underestimated the capacity of our facilities and realized that we could not accommodate the number of children from these camps. all funds were returned to the camps and we will reevaluate the issue at a later date to determine whether it can be feasible in the future. our valley club deplores discrimination in any form as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is not an opinion shared by the valley club board. wow. pamela hayes, sounds like this valley club could be in a little bit of trouble tonight, a little hot water, don't you think?
>> vinnie, they're in big trouble. they could stand to lose their charter. i suspect that a complaint for civil rights violations under section 1983 will be brought. they will be found liable. and they will won't have a club for anybody to swim in. it's an outrage, in 2009, that they think they can put one over on the public with a black mayor and devoted and wonderful governor of the state of pennsylvania. that is not going to wash. and they'll just learn their lesson the hard way. >> a former teacher, now a talk show host for pht radio. dom, this makes people look really, really bad there. then the statement that is made to the media, the initial one about the complexion of the pool. the statements reported by these children, things that they heard. from what i understand, it sounds like the members are the ones who were speaking out
against the board and overruled the board and said, get these kids out of here. >> yeah, i think so. and i think it's unfortunate, the guy that's at the center of this board, dr. deuce ler, because i researched him and he's an obama supporter. i think he was essentially experimenting a little bit to see what would happen here. and i think it's the people that were there, the annual members, as i understand it, i think they're going to have trouble making the case that this was an overcrowding thing. it's a big, spacious club that i know very well. and from what i can tell interviewing people today, having the 60 comes in there once a week, you can't credibly make any argument about overcrowding. but i don't think the director, despite the silly statement he made, is a guy that is racist or anything of that nature. there's a lot of pressure he was receiving. >> a lot of pressure. it might be the members that really are the problem here. we have much more on this story. we also want to know what you think.
prime, so we can find it. include your name and state if you have room. this one's called the philadelphia forcing kids out of the pool just because they were black. let's go to the phone lines. we've got angie in texas tonight. good evening, angie. >> caller: good evening. how are you doing? >> okay, angie. >> caller: i'm calling because this sounds ridiculous. >> it sounds ridiculous, isn't it. >> caller: why do they want to do that to the kids like that? ban them to swim just because of their race. what kind of message are they sending to the kids? >> unbelievable. here's the good news, angie, there was a pool close by that once they heard about all this, invited the children over. so they have a place to swim. but still, that doesn't take away from what happened here. dom, radio host down in that area, what can you tell us about huntington valley? >> it's on the borderline of northeast philadelphia. northeast philadelphia until
recently, the last ten years or so, has been the white area of the city. people that called me, some of them that were club members last night on my show said that they feel under siege. that was their excuse around this. and that they were driven from other neighborhoods in philadelphia. and that was the attitude internally of these people that caused all the ruckus. so what i think what happened here is, you had a guy well meaning who heads this club, he brought in these kids. i've run summer camps, and finding a pool, particularly this is a very nice one, for kids to come to is very difficult. the backlash that happened almost immediately is pretty shocking. there's not much subtly to this backlash. i think it was pretty direct, visceral and en masse on this guy. i think there was a lot of pressure on him. >> pam hayes, how about after all the reports about what happened, and people now understanding and people learning about it, can the folks at that pool turn around and say, you know what, we made a big mistake here, let's invite
them back and all will be okay? >> well, all won't be okay. because it's not so much inviting them back and saying they're sorry. this is an offense not only against these children, it's against, you know, the law of the land. it's illegal, discrimination is illegal in america. and that's what the civil rights act is about. so not only should they invite the children back, but maybe they shouldn't have a pool to swim in either. maybe they should know exactly what their behavior means. and, you know, i'm not impressed at all by, you know, inviting them back. i want this behavior eradicated. that's why they made the rules. them going back is not a big deal. the lesson to be learned is that they have to understand, it's not going to be tolerated. and if that means they can't go swimming, so be it. >> sandy is in massachusetts tonight. sandy, you're on the air.
>> caller: hi. i just think that if these racially prejudiced people would go to a hospital, either really sick or from an accident, i think that if these people met black people at the door that was going to take care of them and heal them, i kind of feel as though they would now at that point accept black people. it's so unfair how they do that. so unfair. >> well stated, sandy. well stated. dom, you know, when we look at this, and it's really going to put a taint over that whole area and people are going to say, huntingdon valley, yeah, we know about those people. do you think there will be a concern in that community not to be labeled as a racist community? >> i haven't seen anything yet. and i don't think that would be fair to do that. these people are not drawn just from huntingdon valley. my guess is they're drawn from all parts of northeast philadelphia, that general area. would you tan issue everyone just because of the people that have an attitude that go there?
for me, i would like to see the kids go back there and swim. i think that might be a pretty good lesson and redeeming thing for those there who don't feel that way. i'm hoping to hear some of that on my show of those that are against what seems to be significant numbers that have provoked this whole deal. >> pam and dom, thanks so much for your help. >> thanks very much. >> thank you. we are following the steve mcnair memorial today. the former nfl quarterback was shot and killed by his mistress in a tragic murder-suicide. now we're finding out his mistress confided in a complete stranger just days before the shooting. and what she said so chilling. taking your calls 1-877-tell-hln.
pictures inside mount zion baptist church in tennessee, as a city comes together to honor a father and local hero killed in a violent and senseless murder-suicide. steve mcnair was shot and killed saturday. his 20-year-old mistress found right next to him, a gun she purchased just days before, found underneath her body. "prime news" correspondent richelle carey joins us with more on this tragedy. >> it is a very sad day in nashville. not just for family and friends shocked by mcnair's death, but for thousands of tennessee titans fans across the state. take a look at this. these are pictures from nashville earlier today. the titan franchise held a public memorial for mcnair. fans came to pay their respects at the stadium where the titans played. these are actually live pictures of the casket right now. what happened at the public memorial earlier today, again, there was a video tribute that was shown on the jumbotron. we'll stay on these live pictures just a bit. family and friends tonight will
be holding a private memorial at the family's church. they should be gathering there very soon. a really tough time for them. and we're learning about mcnair's mistress, sahel kazemi leading up to the killing. a woman who met her just nine days before she pulled the trigger said the signs she was in trouble were very clear, even to her, a complete stranger. >> very frustrated. she asked me, have you ever been in love? that's exactly what she asked me. she said, we have been on all kinds of vacations. but lately he acts like he doesn't want to spend time with me. and it's kill me, and i don't know what to do. she was beautiful on the outside. but she was just dead on the inside. >> absolutely chilling words there, richelle. unbelievable. thanks so much. wow. that was a complete stranger. really tells us a lot about kazemi and how troubled she was in the days leading up to the killings. joining us today, dr. robi
ludwig, and don clark. great to see you, don. dr. robi, wow. we hear about this 20-year-old girl. from my perspective it seems like she was in over herhead, dating this older man who was married. having financial difficulties. but then she goes and confides in a complete stranger, someone she meets while working as a server at dave and buster's. why a complete stranger? >> it's not uncommon for people to feel comfortable talking to, let's say, the bartender. because you never have to face them again. so you can reveal all of your secrets. and then not have to face them and feel ashamed or humiliated. so sometimes strangers do get the real truth, because they're safe people to talk to. >> and what are the signs that friends should have been looking for, 20-year-olds are 20-year-olds. they're just past their teen
years. very young. sometimes naive, not so worldly. how can we tell something is going this wrong? >> it's very difficult. it's always easier to see in hindsight. but if this is a woman who felt without a man, who had nothing to live for, if she talked about, you know, love in a very painful way, and feeling like she didn't see a life if this man wasn't with her. those are all kind of hallmark signs. if she was drinking, if she was using drugs, if she was isola isolating. it sounds like this woman isolated herself and really had the idea, you know, if she could secure this man's love, then she was lovable, and if she couldn't, then she had nothing to live for. and he wasn't going to live either. >> the other part that is very troubling about this case, don clark, is the gun. i mean, she's 20 years old. she's not supposed to own a gun. some sort of private transaction. do you think law enforcement is
going to try to track down the man that sold her this gun, where she got it from? and should he be held responsible at all for what happened here? >> well,well, i think certainly vinnie, that they're certainly going to try to track down and find who she got this gun from and the circumstance in which they got it and where this gun originated from because yes, they will trace that gun right back to its origins. as you know, it has a serial number on it, and as it passes from hand to hand then that serial number should be documented in some paper somewhere. if that didn't happen, the last person that had that gun, perhaps the person that sold her the gun may be the one that's in the most trouble regarding the killings. >> and do you think there should be some sort of criminal responsibility if they find someone who decides on a person to person transfer, selling this gun to this 20-year-old young woman? >> yeah, i actually do. and i think the law will substantiate that, too. you know, if you sold a gun illegally and didn't go through the proper procedures and so
forth and a crime was committed with that gun, then you have some culpability as well. >> also have some other things that have come out today that apparently the wife of steve mcnair knew nothing, knew nothing about this affair, about this other woman, this 20-year-old. also, ironically, steve mcnair apparently had just recorded a tv spot for suicide prevention for young people. suicide prevention for young people. supposed to be a public service announcement that steve mcnair had actually recently recorded. obviously, that is -- we'll never see that, and that will be -- won't be aired. but ironic and really chilling. we're going to have much more on this memorial. we're also taking your calls, folks. you know the number. 1-877-tell-hln.
desperately trying to save the king of pop. a stunning report that janet jackson attempted an intervention two years ago but failed. what went wrong? and a revolting scam. hundreds of graves dug up. the caskets, remains dumped. and police say the suspects actually worked at the cemetery, resold the plots, and pocketed the cash. you're an important part of the show. give us a call. 1-877-tell-hln. e-mail us at cnn.com/primenews or text us at hlntv. start your message with the word "prime." this is your chance to be heard. >> controversy. opinion. your point of view. this is "prime news." welcome to "prime news."
i'm vinnie politan in for mike galanos. a stunning report of an attempt to save michael jackson years before his tragic death. two sources close to the jackson family tell cnn his sister janet tried to stage an intervention in 2007 with help from her brothers but her plans backfired. michael reportedly told his security guards at his home in las vegas not to let the family members in. then this twist. "people" magazine reported it. members of the jackson family released a statement denying planning, participating, even having any knowledge whatsoever about an intervention. but janet did not sign that statement. joining me now with more details on this, natisha lance, producer for nancy grace. dr. kareem, a psychiatrist and addiction special specialist. and david caplan with "people" magazine. david, let me start with you.
take us back to 2007, this attempted intervention. how was it planned, and what went wrong? >> janet jackson, she was really the instigator of the intervention. she wanted to have it happen. she ran up their brothers to do this. however, when it came time to happen in 2007, michael told security not to let them in and in fact he wouldn't even take calls from his mother, katherine, who we know he's very close with. michael really denied that he had any issues or problems, and this actually wasn't necessarily the first time. this report in 2007 from cnn about the intervention also dovetails into a report that "people" has in 2006, an intervention was tried with the brothers also there, janet jackson was on the phone, and then a source told "people" that michael in fact said he was really pissed off, he said he didn't have a drug problem, and that the family didn't believe him. >> how did he find out about it? if it was foiled, did he find out ahead of time, or is he just in the middle of the intervention and not listening to anyone? >> you know, in the instance of
him blocking security from happening, that was something where he basically had an idea what was happening, so that's why he was avoiding all the phone calls from his mom and not letting them in. in the instance where they got a little bit farther, he wasn't really quite sure, so he was never a fan of it. a source told "people" he had issues with morphine, valium, xanax, but still he said he wasn't on drugs at the time. >> dr. reef kareem, when you're in the intervention and you've got the person you want to stop using there in the room and michael jackson's brothers are there, i mean, how do you get flu to that person in an intervention? how do you get through? because they're going to deny it. they're going say i don't have a problem. isn't that the normal reaction? >> yeah, you said the big word. the big word is "denial." because that's really what you have to fight when you're doing an intervention. surprisingly, sometimes love and just the commonality that all these people in the room who love you have, which is to see you get better, works, and that alone can penetrate some of the
denial. but sometimes it doesn't. and in that case you have to look at what the person values. maybe it's the fact you're going to go on tour and they might not be able to do it if they keep up with the drug use that they're doing. sometimes it's their kids. you've got to get to the person somehow in a loving environment. and also just elicit some type of motivation from them. because a lot of people in denial, they're not motivated to do anything about it because they're getting along the way they are now. >> natisha lance, you know what really shocked me about this story is that his mother, katherine -- and we know he loves -- loved his mother and his mother loves him. and even she was shut out. that surprises me that even katherine couldn't get through to michael. >> yeah, you're absolutely right, vinnie. we've heard michael jackson numerous interviews before talk about his mother and calling her what he would consider to be perfection. but with this drug azix which we keep hearing over and over again, we heard jermaine jackson say when he did his interview with the "today show" that he
would be very hurt, however he wouldn't be surprised that michael jackson had succumbed to the pressures and especially after the incident with the pepsi commercial that he knew possibly he was using some drugs at that point. then we also heard dr. arnold klein talk about he knew michael jackson was using diprivan at one point when he was on tour. we also heard him say he went to england at one point to withdraw from drug use, he was completely clean for a while. and then we've also heard about this mini clinic that michael jackson had that was confirmed to dr. sanjay gupta, that th dr. neil ratner who was with him on tour, although he didn't confirm he was giving him drugs he was allegedly there to put him down and then bring him back up in the morning. >> this is interesting, dr. karim, because on the one hand we're hearing michael denying, i don't have a problem, i don't have a problem. but he went to the uk for a problem according to dr. arnold klein. and then we heard the stories back in the early '90s that he had checked himself into rehab
for different places. on the one hand he's denying it but on the other hand he's seeking help? help us understand that. >> that's what makes this disease so complicated. a lot of people go for help to detox. but detox is different from recovery. basically, i look at it almost like a pizza pie. you've got your crust, and you've got the inside of it. the inside of it is the cheese. it's whether you're using drugs or you're not using drugs. the crust is all of the behaviors associated with drug use, the lying, the denial, the manipulation. the putting one over on people. the checking out. all of that stuff needs to be repaired in recovery in addition to being detox. so what happens with a lot of people that are addicts is they'll go, they'll get detoxed almost like going in to get your car serviced, they check in, get detoxed, check out, and they don't spend the time to actually engage in recovery and do the work. and think about this, too. this is a big issue with celebrities. it's got to be quick.
it's got to be fast. they've got to go on tour. they've got to go here. they've got to go there. and their handlers are like, listen, you can't take three to six months out and get work in this recovery zone. you've got three weeks before -- two weeks or a week before you've got to be out. so they never get the treatment they need. and it's incredibly fast. >> dr. karim, did you give the pizza analogy just because my name is vinnie? >> well, you know, vinnie, since we go back a long way and you've got the name i figured i'd throw it in there. i figured you'd appreciate it. >> i did appreciate it. david caplan, the family denies and denied back in 2007, seems to continue to deny that michael had any problems. why is that? why do you think they continued to deny it when if they outed him in the public then maybe that would have helped him? >> you know, it's interesting. and also in that denial that we received at the time everyone signed it in the family except for janet jackson, which was a little interesting considering she was identified as someone who instigated it.
i think like most celebrities the jackson family didn't want to air out their dirty laundry so to speak in the public eye. they wanted it to be on their own terms. they didn't want another media outlet to report it for them. and that's for the simple reason why, they wouldn't want it out there that michael jackson had a drug problem. >> and yes, it's dirt ji laun y laundry. but it's also very dangerous laundry. we'll have more on this failed intervention, and of course we want to hear from you. 1-877-tell-hln.
resold. people's relatives ripped from their grave, thrown around like trash. now four cemetery workers face felony charges. how did this happen? give us a call. 1-877-tell-hln. now more on michael jackson. the way the story's really turning tonight is could this have been prevented? did somebody know that michael jackson had a serious problem? well, dr. arnold klein was on "larry king live" last night, and he talked about michael jackson and diprivan. >> did michael tell you he used diprivan? >> i knew at one point that he was using diprivan when he was on tour in germany. and so he was using it with an anesthesiologist to go to sleep at night. and i told him he was absolutely insane. i said you have to understand that this drug, you can't repeatedly take because what happens with narcotics no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them. >> and there's his friend and
dermatologist and one of his doctors, dr. arnold klein, telling michael jackson this is crazy, why are you taking diprivan to go to sleep at night? dr. reef karim, this is the part that is shocking people, that in order to go to sleep at night while he's on tour and perhaps, you know, while he was re hearsing for this tour coming up, he would take diprivan, an iv with an anesthesiologist to get knocked out at night. >> yeah, talk about desperation. to take a drug that's only used in icus and operating rooms in an iv format and actually find a way to take it at home to sleep, i mean, i don't know his history, and i don't treat him, but that's the end of the road. there's like 100 other ways you can try to get sleep besides that. that's like the ultimate desperate move. >> natisha lance, do we know what doctors were providing diprivan to michael jackson? >> we cannot confirm for sure which doctors were, but what we do know is that the associated press has reported that diprivan
was found at michael jackson's home. there is some speculation that possibly dr. conrad murray may have been giving michael jackson diprivan, although he has not commented on that, as well as dr. neil ratner also has not commented about giving michael jackson diprivan. but there are still a lot more questions that need to be answered as this investigation continues. >> david caplan from "people" magazine, this is the part of the story that i think is the most troubling to all of us because diprivan -- you don't walk into a drugstore with a prescription for diprivan and walk out with it. if diprivan is there, then somebody's doing michael jackson -- or thought he was doing michael jackson a favor here. and it seems that's where this whole investigation is going to be focused, if in fact diprivan had anything to do with the death of michael jackson. >> you know, absolutely. and the issue really is how he obtained this diprivan. and of course, you know, really in hollywood, and everyone really knows it, there is sort of an established network of doctors and providers of these medications and drugs who provide celebrities with such
medication. and that's really the problem, and that's really what sort of has been the spotlight has been intensified on, is identifying who these people are, whether they're doctors or other sort of health care professionals or whoever is really getting access to these, identifying them, ascertaining what exactly their network-s how they're getting drugs to these celebrities, and that is really the next part of this investigation. >> dr. reef karim, is it worse with celebrities out there in hollywood, you know, getting prescription drugs and having access to doctors that will do them favors, or is it we just think about it more because they are celebrities? >> yeah, he's absolutely right. i mean, the dr. feel-goods are definitely out there. there's not -- i'm hoping really that there's not that many. i know -- there's a few in the area. and they specifically cater to celebrities. they'll cater to other people, too. but the celebrity lifestyle doesn't stop at celebrities and their handlers. it continues on to -- it could affect attorneys and doctors and
all sorts of other people. as a professional you have to be able to say no. you have to be able to say look, i'm treating you and this is what i think is best for you. and there will be a lot of pressures from a lot of people to give -- to work on that prescription pad and give somebody something. but you have to be able to say no and say you know what, i'm not going to get caught up in this lifestyle, i'm not going to get caught up -- >> it's like anyone else that likes to get close to celebrities, and maybe for some doctors that's a way to get close to celebrities. yeah, they may do it for the money, but it's really, you know, all right, i'm pals with a celebrity here. and that has to stop. it has to stop. we're going to have more on this intervention and we also want to hear from you. give us a call, folks, don't be shy. 1-877-tell-hln.
calls. let's go to phil, who is in kentucky. phil, you're on the air. >> caller: hello. >> yes, phil, you're on the air. >> caller: well, i just want to say, i mean, of course i love his music. i mean, there's no question. i grew up with his music. i do believe there's been too much publicity. you know, he's a real person with a real family. he's certainly missed -- there's no question about that. i believe the question was could his death have been prevented? of course it could have. and also i heard a question on there while i was listening, how does a person like this get drugs? i mean, any celebrity, as we all know, can get any drug out there. illegal drugs, anything. if you've got enough money, you can get anything you want. period. >> phil, thanks for the call. appreciate it. and that's one of the problems here tonight. if it was the money and the celebrity that got him access to something like diprivan, there needs to be an investigation, and that investigation is
ongoing. don clark is back with us, a former fbi special agent in charge. and don, this -- i don't know where it's going to go. i don't know where it's going to lead us to. we have to wait for the toxicology to come back. but if there's a doctor out there supplying diprivan to michael jackson, anesthesia to go to sleep at night, it's not even sleep, he's being knocked out, something has to be done out there. >> it really does, vinnie. and this is not anything new. this has been going on for a long time. i heard a statistic today that there are more deaths by prescription drugs and this type of activity than by handguns in this country. now, that's huge because we know how serious that is. but because of the people that are taking these and they have the ability to get things done, i've been involved in a case for several years now, the anna nicole smith case, which follows right down that same path. yet no one's been responsible for that as of yet. and certainly someone should be held responsible for michael if they were there because they have to say no to these people who want them to continue to
give them these things. and in some cases it may not even be want, it may be convenient for the people who are the caretakers. >> let's go to another call. yeager who's in florida. you're on the air. >> caller: good evening -- i don't know what time it is. i'm in florida. anyway, i wanted to voice my opinion about what you all are talking about. >> sure. >> caller: first of all, death going to come to all of us, one way or another. drugs, alcohol, whatever. it's going come. that's something we have to face. the other thing is about michael jackson and his prescription problem or whatever. i've always said that the pharmaceutical industry was the biggest drug dealers next to illegal drugs. so i think there needs to be some stricter laws placed. you know, like we put people in jail, cocaine, whatever. they serve long jail sentences. i think that needs to apply to doctors as well 37 i mean, they're supplying -- >> absolutely, yeager. i agree with you 100%. great phone call. thanks so much. and don, when we talk about
where this investigation could go, it could go to doctors, it could go to perhaps a pharmacy if they know and they're supplying all this stuff. there has to be a check and balance when you're dispensing things like diprivan. >> it can go to a number of places. and i certainly agree in part with what your caller just said because there are people out there, prescriptions, doctors, and other individuals giving this that are held responsible for procuring these drugs. attorney general brown in california has taken the right step as he has in the anna nicole smith case, at least looking at these people. and i think it's only fair. awful us in the world love michael jackson but no matter how much there needs to be a detailed look at what he was taking, how he was getting it, and the amounts of these type of drugs. if we don't stop it someplace it's just going to continue, vinnie. >> absolutely. we're going to talk much more about this and continue to take your phone calls. 1-877-tell-hln. i'll clean the pool if you clean the windows.
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it's absolutely repulsive. four cemetery workers near chicago accused in a scheme so morbid, so horrific it's difficult to believe. police in illinois say the suspects may have dug up more than 300 graves, dumped the caskets, the bones, then resold the plots and pocketed the cash. this allegedly happened at a historic african-american cemetery called burr oak over the course of about four years. the manager and three grave digers now face felony charges of dismembering a human body. and listen to this. as police describe the disgusting lengths they went to to pull off this sick scheme. >> for graves that were stacked on top of each other, some of the ways in which that was done
as has been explained to us is literally they were pounded -- they pounded the other one down and put someone on top. that makes it hard. >> and that man is now with us live to talk about all this. sheriff tom dart from the cook county sheriff's department. and also joining us on the phone, tiffany robinson, whose cousin is buried at the cemetery. sheriff, i know you have to go. so let me get to you first. first of all, this apparently going on for four years. how did it all come to light? >> well, you know, we had a couple things that occurred. one was apparently a worker here does have a conscience and called the management. the management is an absentee management. they are not here in chicago. they're in arizona. they had also seen some financial irregularities. they contacted us. we came in here with the thought that it was going to be a primarily financial crime, and we came into something quite different, where we see an ever-expanding list of potential
victims who had their graves desecrated and remains removed and dumped at different parts of the cemetery in an effort to make money. >> sheriff, how are you going to figure out, how will you determine where they -- which graves were dug up and which people were placed in those graves? how difficult a task is that going to be? >> this task is so difficult. i can't emphasize enough to you. we're so fortunate we have the full support of the fbi putting their grids together to help us with the forensics. but we have a pattern that's gone on for many years. there was no rhyme nor reason. and there was no delicacy, let me put it that way-w how they would remove bodies and then dump them. there is a lot of mixing of remains and things like that. so we have a lot of very distraught relatives and family that have been streaming in since 7:00 this morning and continue to come in. we've had over 700 people here, 700 families come in so far
today. our phone lines have been going down because we get so many phone calls on it. and there's very little we can tell them right now to give them any real peace, which has been the very frustrating thing for us because we're trying to hopefully get them some closure. but we are confident that that will not occur for an extended period of time. and in some instances it might be very, very difficult. >> and you're talking about over 300 graves. how could they get away with this for four years? i mean, try to explain to us and describe for us the area. i mean, are these marked graves? unmarked graves? how did that -- how did it go on? >> well, the pattern, they more often than not seem to have followed is they would go to graves -- because this is such an old historic cemetery. they would go to older grave sites, where all the family members may have died off, where people have not visited in quite some time. they would target those graves. they would be able to disinterthe body. and then they would dump it in another part of the cemetery, where the people really don't go
too often other than the workers. it's a large, large area. i'm not trying to tell you it's a tiny little area. it's a huge area in the back. but it's heavily wooded, and there's a lot of other construction-related things there. so that's where they would dump most of the remains they had. and they did a lot of this stuff where in areas where a lot of people frankly weren't visiting and they kept it as a very small group of people who knew what was going on here. >> sheriff, tell us a little about how a cemetery is regulated. are there any sort of records of people that came in and buried loved ones and where they're located -- >> no. >> no? >> i'll be honest with you. that's the thing that's killing me right now, is that in this state there's virtually no regulation. and we've been telling people, and it's not an exaggeration, our barbers and the people who do nails here are truly more regulated than people who operate cemeteries. so there are no other records, and that's what's causing us a great deal of problems because a lot of records were destroyed. a lot of records go back to the
'20s. a lot of records are missing. and so for us trying to piece back together a crime scene where someone affirmatively was trying to hide documents, erase things, wipe things out, it's difficult because we don't have another source to go to because there is no regulation here. >> and are you concerned that perhaps some of the evidence in the case that you would use has been destroyed? >> well, i think what we're going to find out more is that the evidence is scattered amongst a large field. so it's going to be hard to pinpoint some things. but the evidence is all here as far as the remains, the paperwork. we have all that we need there. but as i say, that's for the criminal side, which is one thing. but i'll be honest with you. i have now been sliding into this side, trying to make families whole. and that's where the lack of paperwork is going to hurt us. the criminal case i feel very confident in but trying to help these poor families going through this horrific experience, that's going to be very hard. >> and sheriff, i notice people
walking back and forth behind you. those are all family members? >> they've been coming in streams since 6:00 or 7:00 this morning. non-stop. and as i said, we're over 700 families, not 700 individuals. >> wow. >> and the stories -- i can't tell you the number of people i've been talking to, holding hands with, hugging, just trying to explain to them don't give up, don't despair, we can still help you here, but it's going to take us some time. and it's so difficult to try to console somebody there because of an act like this going on. >> unbelievable. >> i can't emphasize, this is just heartbreaking. >> well, sheriff, we appreciate your time tonight. we know you're very, very busy. and good luck in the investigation and helping console all those families. much more to come, including we're going to speak with tiffany robinson, whose family member was in that grave.
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