tv 2020 ABC August 18, 2017 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT
like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. that's our program for tonight, but don't go anywhere. "20/20" starts right now. are you willing to die today? >> is hand to hand come back coming to your town square? in the fallout from charlottesville, as the statues come down, the war of words becomes a lightning rod. >> you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. people in that group, excuse me. i saw the same pictures as you did. >> that's a failure to fundamentally understand what white supremacists are all about. that is dangerous. >> tonight, our "20/20" cameras taking you into both extreme sides of the barrier. >> donuts and rifles, that's the
american breakfast. >> into the secret locations and minds of a hate group. >> and into the opposition. who hate what the white nationalists stand for. >> i'm not trying to shut them up. i'm trying to shut them down. >> tonight, leaders from both sides come face to face. as our cameras roll. >> if the goal is an all-white homeland, how do you do that within the laws of the united states? >> you're not going to stop us. >> yes, we will stop you. >> fractured america. good evening. i'm elizabeth vargas. >> and i'm david muir. as we come on the air, the sense of uncertainty and unease growing throughout the country as more confederate statues come down. just today, a protest in durham,
north carolina, with more planned. >> and in the shadow of the remarks by the president this week, that both sides share the blame, that there are fine people on both sides. magazine covers portraying the president with kkk hoods. tom llamas with unparalleled access, and what led to the horrif horrific flashpoint of charlottesville. >> when you look at charlottesville, especially that friday night with the tiki torches, i think the country was shocked because those folks looked like people in your neighborhood. they didn't have the robes. they didn't have the tattoos all over their body. in many cases, they looked like somebody that you might know. >> reporter: the shocking images, the killing in the street.
>> just plowed through hundreds of people. >> reporter: the violence in virginia last weekend was just the most recent and most tragic confrontation between white supremacists and a militant resistance. >> we're seeing a period of unusual, intense polarization among the population and in the political arena. >> just get over there where you belong. >> reporter: for the past six months we've been crisscrossing the country tracking all this political violence. embedded with both sides, from their biggest brawls to their secret meetings. some of what you will hear tonight will be hard to hear and difficult. but its important to understand how all this began. our story begins here. >> knock the crap out of them, would you? seriously, okay? just knock the hell, i promise you, i will pay for the legal fees. i promise, i promise. >> reporter: last year the trump
campaign inspired many types of people. among them, matt heimbach, a rising star of a white nationalist movement that calls itself the alt-right. president trump has denounced groups like heimbach's. >> racism is evil. >> reporter: but heimbach says the president been an inspiration. >> he's opened up a door. his movement has opened up a door but it's up to us to take the initiative. >> reporter: the number of hate rose last year to near its all-time high, says the southern poverty law center. now leaders like heimbach admit to a newfound energy. >> i think he's a reflection of the excitement that mr. trump has engendered in the white supremacist movement. >> get out of here. get out! out! >> reporter: that's heimbach at a trump rally last march. the guy with the beard and the red hat. striking, and then shoving this african-american protester, as she's being led away.
he later pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct. >> there wouldn't be any violence at trump rallies if, of course, the far left protesters hadn't gone into the rallies and tried to disrupt them. >> reporter: isn't there something to be said about decency. clearly you're on that video pushing a woman from the back. >> you have a right to defend yourself. >> reporter: the antagonists of the alt-right are really a loose-knit group of activists, who prefer to be called the antifa movement, short for anti-fascists. >> right now, we're in a very dangerous place, we're in a very troubling place. >> reporter: lacey macauley, a self-described anarchist and self-described anarchist and mild-mannered worker at a nonprofit by day, was one of the few antifa activists willing to go on camera for this report. >> a lot of people basically have been responding by caring to join the antifascist movement. >> antifa is on the hard left. in fact, many would argue parts of them aren't even left. they're anarchists.
>> reporter: and they're not afraid to play rough. in san jose up close, i saw it up close. they brutalized trump supporters at random. throwing eggs at them, beating them bloody, and attacking their cars. >> there's no doubt that the antifa believe that physical confrontation is necessary to prevent the rise of white supremacy. >> reporter: the protests didn't cool down when trump won the election. >> the man who will be the 45th president of the united states, donald trump. >> reporter: the alt-right rejoiced. it was at this notorious conference in november that much of the country was introduced to richard spencer, the self-styled intellectual who coined the term alt-right.
>> donald trump means that the world is changing, something new is coming into the political reality. >> reporter: several eagerly joined in his enthusiastic nazi salute. >> hail trump. hail our people. hail our victory. >> let's not sugarcoat this. he's a nazi. >> reporter: for a lot of americans who saw that, it was terrifying. >> i knew that i was being highly provocative when i said, "hail trump." i don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. >> reporter: to be clear, most trump supporters aren't alt-right demonstrators. most trump resisters are not antifa. but those mobilized minorities at the extremes can have a big impact. and january 20th, inauguration day, became d-day for both sides. many of the people "20/20" has been following for months were right in the middle of it. >> i, donald john trump, do solemnly swear -- >> reporter: just blocks away, some members an antifa group lead by lacy macauly disrupt
j20, swung into action, torching a limousine and scuffling with police. >> there's a massive undertaking in the district to actually oppose the inauguration of donald j. trump. >> reporter: macauly believes hate speech is the equivalent of violence, and can be answered with violence. we've seen her take on armed white supremacists with little more than a bullhorn. so why do these confrontations always get so violent? >> i mean, yes, you might have your hot-headed 19-year-olds. antifa who i know are really trying to actually act in self defense. >> reporter: but what about the vandalism and harassment here of an inaugural ball guest perpetrated by some of her associates, using so-called "black bloc" tactics? >> everyone wears the same color. hey, basic black. it's trendy. and also just, you know, wearing the mask, to conceal your identity. >> reporter: the world got a glimpse of these tactics in action when some in macauley's group, clad all in black, smashed the windows of a starbucks and a bank of america. >> breaking a window is a
symbolic act. windows break all the time. things break all the time. >> reporter: so this is your home. if i -- after this interview, if i broke all your windows in a symbolic act, you'd be okay with that? >> that would be a symbolic act. i mean, if you wanted to protest this interview, you can break the windows. >> reporter: and there that day at a command post in mcpherson square, daryle lamont jenkins, a truck driver from philadelphia who describes himself as the "intelligence expert" for antifa, keeping tabs on spencer, heimbach, and their alt-right ilk. so you're a watchdog? >> correct. we basically just report what we see. we go anywhere they go. >> reporter: on the other side, matt heimbach was there. and richard spencer turned up too. >> we'll expect some protesters, they'll do silly string. >> reporter: then a turning point. watch this.
spencer was conducting this interview when, wait for it. a man walked up and punches him, right in the face, in the middle of the street. >> if you're doing something important you're going to be attacked verbally and physically. i'm willing to go through with it. >> reporter: the attack went viral instantly. sparking an internet debate about whether it was okay to punch a nazi. was that okay? >> i think that you saw a lot of people actually very inspired by the fact that the nazis are not invincible. >> of course it's not okay to punch a nazi any more than it's okay to punch a doctor who performs abortion, if you believe abortion is murder. the same people who insist that they are in the right when they are engaging in violence would be horrified if the roles were reversed. >> reporter: as fate would have it, just hours after spencer was punched, the roles were reversed. on inauguration night in seattle, an anti-trump activist was injured by a gunshot through
the abdomen. >> police! >> the only individual who's ever been shot at one of these rallies, he was an antifa member. and he was shot by a maga hat-wearing trump fan. >> here's the reality, 74% of the extremist-related killings in this country in the past ten years have been carried out by right wing extremists. >> reporter: given all that, you'd think spencer and the alt-right might have wanted to dial things back. but instead, he was just getting started. >> they brought the fight to us. there was a war started. and those sons of bitches started the war. and so we're going to respond to them. >> reporter: when we come back, the alt-right is heading to campus. trying to recruit america's youth and the resistance is there to greet them. and, inside an alt-right conclave. you never know who you'll meet.
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topic, the future. >> this is not business as usual. this is a political revolution. and tomorrow belongs to us. defeat never, victory forever. hail victory. >> reporter: there are several speakers here. >> we are white people. we are aryans. >> reporter: but none quite like matt heimbach, who is practically worshipped by many of his followers. >> matt heinbach is extremely articulate, well spoken, he is a genius and he is what's taking this movement forward. >> they see me as their leader, the one that's fighting for them. and i couldn't do any of this without them. >> reporter: you look up to someone like adolf hitler? >> of course, we look up to men like adolf hitler. we look up to him as inspirations for what we can achieve. >> reporter: also inspired to follow heimbach here, some who prefer to remain anonymous. >> i'm a baptist preacher, so i got to maintain a low profile. there's a festive mood as they
pose for photo and load up on pose for photo and load up on ss patches and other nazi-themed merchandise. heimbach was making headlines back in 2014, for his attempts to form white students groups at college campuses. >> racists, fascists, anti-gay. >> kkk, go away. >> reporter: today, heimbach, a delivery truck driver, and a father of two, says his moment has arrived. is your movement on the upswing? >> our movement is growing very, very quickly. >> reporter: heimbach's ideology is nothing new, but what's most disarming and disturbing is his manner. friendly, soft-spoken, this teddy bear of a guy looks like he belongs behind the counter of an ice cream parlor. so the klan wore hoods, they hid their identity. why don't you guys wear hoods? >> we have nothing to hide. we're here to bring our message to our people and to fight for them.
>> reporter: needless to say, aside from street-level actions, heimbach has discovered the power of social media, especially youtube. >> hello, comrades. >> miscarriage of justice. >> they hate white people. >> it's just basic like speaking videos. i'm not shooting a hollywood movie, i don't need a big jewish budget. >> reporter: do you hate jewish people? >> hate, do they hate me? >> reporter: i don't know, i'm asking you. we were with heimbach back in april, when he arrived at alabama's auburn university with his posse. he's here to support alt-right leader richard spencer in a nationwide campus recruiting effort. >> since mid-2016, we've documented about 250 instances of white supremacist flyers and recruitment going on, on college campuses. >> we are here to be able to ensure that they hear
mr. spencer's message. one that should inspire the white students to love their people. >> reporter: private school educated, from a wealthy family, sharply dressed. spencer presents as the white nationalist for the upper tax brackets. >> he had two goals. one, make white nationalism more intellectualized and have a greater appeal to young people by toning down some of the more obvious uses of nazi symbology. >> greatness is far more important than equality. equality is for losers. >> reporter: why not just call it white supremacy? why not call it neo-nazism? >> whenever anyone stands up for our identity, we get called this collection of names, like, "you're a neo-nazi." the idea that hitler has a monopoly on identity for white people is just simply ridiculous. >> he's a spoiled rich kid.
who's never had a real job other than conservative propagandist. >> reporter: antifa activist daryl jenkins has attended many spencer events and today his comrades would love to stop spencer from delivering what they consider a dangerous speech. >> it's not so much shutting them up, it's about shutting them down. >> reporter: afraid of violence, auburn's administration revokes spencer's permission to speak. professor geoffrey stone says caving in to the mob is a mistake. >> what happens then is anyone who wants to speak, if other people want to shut them down, all they basically have to do is say, "well, we're going to be violent, we're going to disrupt, we're going to riot." and then the police will go and shut down the speakers. >> reporter: spencer, happy to play the first-amendment martyr, takes the fight to court. >> we are on 85 south, and we are going to the courthouse to file a junction. >> reporter: hours later, the court says it's a clear first amendment issue.
auburn university cannot stop spencer from speaking on campus. >> i thought our chances for victory were slim, but we did it. >> reporter: an hour before spencer speaks, the action outside is already heating up. and heimbach's men chant. >> communist scum, off our streets! communist scum, off our streets! if you believe america is a communist country, you're a traitor. >> reporter: as students make their position clear. >> this is our home. >> reporter: finally, flanked by private security and a police escort, spencer makes his entrance. despite a few interruptions, he makes his case. >> systematic discrimination against white people at all levels of society. >> reporter: so white supremacy, he says, requires a white homeland to flourish. >> there is nothing that can stop an idea whose time has
come. and that time is now. >> reporter: his followers up front cheer while the students sit in stony silence. 90 minutes later, his mission accomplished, spencer takes off, in a fast retreat. >> spencer sucks. spencer sucks. >> reporter: heimbach isn't as lucky. with no police to protect him, an angry crowd soon descends on him, and he is literally chased down the street. >> no nazis! >> i crossed a rubicon long ago that i'm willing to die. and i -- that might sound stark. that might sound a little scary. >> reporter: a little dramatic. >> a little dramatic. sure. but the fact is, you know, politics can be -- it can be a war. >> reporter: a spencer victory? perhaps, but coming up, antifa
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>> reporter: we've traveled deep into the rolling mountains of appalachia to reach pikeville, kentucky. infamous for the family feud between the hatfields and mccoys -- remembered today in tv drama and on whimsical statues on main street. but now two more warring clans, antifa and white supremacists, are heading here for a high noon showdown. >> no longer will you be the silent majority. you have a voice. >> reporter: this is trump country, he garnered 80% of the votes here. so matt heimbach sees fertile ground for his next big racist rally, and to recruit for his cause of creating a whites-only homeland.
>> our strongest area of membership is in appalachia, and in the rust belt. this is an area where people have just been left behind by the economy, where white folks feel that they don't have an advocate. >> we are preparing for the worst, hoping for the best >> reporter: because of past violence by masked antifa, the inauguration day action in washington, and this violent protest in february at the university of california, berkeley, pikeville city manager donovan blackburn is worried. >> the counterprotesters and the antifa are the groups that i'm concerned about. >> reporter: the city passes an order banning masks and hoods. and blackburn urges downtown shops to close. it's now the evening before, the typically bustling friday night streets are abandoned. >> we would have a front row seat to it, if we chose to. but we want to get out of the way. >> reporter: several miles away, the neonazis are at that camp up
in the mountains, starting their saturday morning. no bagels, but plenty of bullets. >> donuts and rifles, that's the american breakfast right there. >> reporter: they're unconcerned about their sworn enemies. >> these are trust fund kids, these are heroin-addicted, noodle-armed, skinny, you know, [ bleep ]. >> reporter: most are well armed. >> we're prepared to defend ourselves. as you can see, many of us are armed, and we're ready. >> reporter: the morning starts with a lesson on how to wear gas masks. >> you're going to close your eyes, and you're going to hold your breath. >> reporter: and military training on how to stand in formation and march. >> it's a bit difficult to get with the synchronicity of it all. >> we want to be like ants. we're a colony and we just go and destroy everything. >> reporter: then the final touches. >> we're carrying shields to be able to defend ourselves against their attacks.
>> reporter: the phrase is swedish for enough is enough. >> they're going to be required to stay on one side of the street, and if they attack us, the police should intervene. >> reporter: early saturday morning down in pikeville, the police chief briefs his men. >> a lot of unforeseen things could half. >> reporter: remember those antifa activists daryl lamont jenkins and lacy macauley? they're pulling into town now in advance of their fellow troops, whom they've alerted through social media. >> there could be thunderstorms in the forecast. >> they'll just wash away the stink that the nazis bring with them. >> reporter: lacey's concerned that it's legal here to openly carry weapons, a right the
opposition is proudly exercising. >> it's a little scary, i don't want to be a martyr or anything. >> reporter: today, she's embracing the first amendment, not the second. >> extra batteries, black bandana and you know the universal anti-fascist symbol, three arrows pointing down. >> reporter: daryl, though, opts for more subtle, sophisticated tactics. he knows antifa actions can turn violent, and he understands it, but he fears it's a stain on the movement. >> that's what's generating the attention. i don't want that to be the thing that generates attention, but unfortunately, that's what happened. >> reporter: rather than fight in the street, daryl prefers to fight online. he's come here to take photos of alt-right demonstrators, identifying them by name, and s. a process called "doxxing." short for documenting.
why spend all this time? why hunt these people down? like, what is your goal? to expose them? >> because there are some people out there that don't want to be exposed, and they may pose even a greater threat than anybody that doesn't mind. >> reporter: laura sennett is another seemingly unlikely antifa researcher. >> i'm a mom. i shop at trader joe's. >> reporter: and for years sennett has doxxed along with daryle. >> when you are looking at posts from a woman who is a mental health nurse, and she's talking about how she wishes she could poison all the minority patients that she has in her ward. yes, her personal information, and those quotes, and those screen shots went out to the public, absolutely. >> you will not replace us! >> reporter: and as two demonstrators at charlottesville last weekend found out, that means consequences. cole white and peter tefft were both outed online. since then, white left his job at a california hot dog shop, and tefft's own father publicly
disowned him, denouncing his son's "vile, hateful and racist rhetoric and actions." you want to make sure these -- these groups don't enter the mainstream? >> exactly. because no one's paying attention to them. and sooner or later, they're going to be your police officers, they're going to be your politicians. they're going to be your teachers. they are going to be people that you cannot touch. and i don't want that to happen. >> reporter: in pikeville, the showdown is moments away. police have closed the streets to traffic and are taking their positions. >> we're all praying for a peaceful demonstration. >> reporter: will those prayers be answered? >> you can't get angry, these people are politically confused. >> reporter: or will hotter heads prevail? stay with us. now's the really fun part. choosing the color, the wheels, the interior, everything exactly how i want it. here's the thing: just because i configured this car online doesn't mean it really exists at a dealership, but with truecar, i get real pricing on actual cars in my area.
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first to march into downtown pikeville. along with signs and noisemakers, they're prepared with their own medics just in case of trouble. heimbach's group is more than an hour late. his convoy got lost en route from the mountains after making a wrong right turn. >> move it over, form lines, hold formation. >> reporter: they march straight into a wild cacophony of noise and chants, led by lacey macauley on her bullhorn. >> get the [ bleep ] out! >> seig heil, seig heil! >> hold it together! fascism is about discipline, gentlemen. these people are not worthy of your time. >> reporter: both sides are armed, some antifa with clubs, white supremacists with guns. but police are taking no chances. the hundreds of protesters have
been restricted to fenced-in pens on opposite sides of this downtown square, with a line of police officers keeping them apart. >> matthew heimbach! matthew heimbach! >> you can't get angry, these people are politically confused. all right. thank you, gentlemen. i'm going to remember that the rest of my life. >> reporter: daryl jenkins is snapping photos for his doxxing campaign. >> hey, how you doing? >> reporter: one man attempted to reason with the opposition. >> i know what you mean, man. ignorant hillbillies, you've said enough. shut up. >> reporter: several speakers try to punch through, but the noise is overwhelming. >> greetings from the christian knights and global crusaders of the ku klux klan. you have been brainwashed. >> reporter: as tensions rise, demonstrators on each side jump the fences. police rush to push each back
behind their barriers, desperate to keep them separated. >> there are so many of you, stand behind the wall! >> reporter: time up is up on their permit, so heimbach's group heads back to their cars. >> that's what you call a victory for us. they tried to shut our event down and they were unable to. freedom of speech won, baby. >> reporter: but both sides continue to provoke each other. >> you're class traitors, you're national traitors. >> reporter: now in the closing moments, the police chief fears he's losing control. so he calls in reinforcements, state police in full riot gear. a nervous heimbach pulls out his gun, even cocks it, just in case. >> when you've got a lot of people that want to kill you, you've got to work and do your best to not get killed. right? >> reporter: today, police held the line.
crisis averted. but coming up, heimbach, spencer, macauley and jenkins meet again in charlottesville, virginia, on a day with tragic consequences. >> the car just plowed through hundreds of people. >> reporter: and is the commander in chief taking sides? >> you had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit, and they were very, very violent. modern way t. you excited? it's sold out. don't fret, my friend. i masterpassed it! you can use it online and on your phone i masterpassed it. you got the tickets? onward! playing the hero: priceless masterpass. the secure way to pay from your bank don't just buy it. masterpass it. but their nutritional needs (vremain instinctual.d, that's why there's purina one true instinct.
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to a call from richard spencer, matt heimbach and other white nationalist leaders, a host of far-right groups descend on charlottesville for a rally protesting the removal of that lee statue. ♪ this little light of mine >> reporter: and once again, a wide ranging group of counterprotesters, many of them peaceful, gather to confront the forces of intolerance head on. >> the reality is, the majority of people who go out and protest against hate are not the antifa. >> reporter: still, antifa does have a strong presence in charlottesville. lacy macauley is there marching. armed with only her trusty bullhorn and a flag. and daryl lamont jenkins is doxxing up a storm. >> is this guy wearing a hitler shirt? yes, he is. i'm going to take a picture of him. but today, jenkins senses a
different type of danger. >> there is some concern that things can go south really fast. >> reporter: he's concerned because lately, things have taken a bloody turn. the left-wing shooting of a republican congressman and the fatal right-wing stabbings in oregon allegedly by an alt-right regular. the suspect pleaded not guilty, denouncing antifa in court. >> death to antifa. >> what you will find is a consistent record of white supremacists, not only engaging in public protests, which is their right, but how that hatred leads to violence. >> reporter: now jenkins is worried that lethal force will also erupt in charlottesville. >> gunshots. let's hope not, let's hope not. i'm going to be fair with you. i'm so concerned that i'm strapped up myself. >> reporter: at about 11:00 a.m., jenkins' nemesis, white nationalist leader matt heimbach mobilizes his men in this parking garage. they're battle-ready, armed with
shields, sticks. >> we're doing the lord's work. what is there to be nervous about if you're doing the lord's work? >> reporter: heimbach's men take to the streets. >> just a day in the park. shields up! >> reporter: ready for the worst. >> are you willing to die today? >> of course. >> reporter: as heimbach's group enters the park, clashes have already erupted between the white nationalists and counterprotesters. unlike in pikeville, police are unable to keep the two sides apart. as a haze of tear gas fills the streets, all hell breaks loose as both sides, armed with weapons, collide. >> three or four people started hitting me with some kind of sticks. >> reporter: rocks, bottles full of urine and other projectiles fly back and forth. and then this moment, one counterprotester even squares off with white nationalists using an improvised flame thrower. finally, local and state police
move in, using pepper spray to keep demonstrators at bay. >> if you do not disperse immediately, you will be arrested. >> don't split up. they want us to get hurt! >> reporter: the white nationalist groups are forced to flee the scene, enraging richard spencer. >> this is a peaceful assembly and this is what they're going to do. this is an absolute outrage, we'll see them in court. >> reporter: but watch right here as a "peaceful assembly" of white nationalists mercilessly beat a counterprotester. a little after noon, heimbach and spencer regroup at a nearby park, blaming the other side for the violence. >> it's a crazed attack. these people are on [ bleep ] drugs, they are [ bleep ] lunatics, not worth getting stabbed over. >> reporter: and we also see an old poster boy of hate and intolerance, former kkk grand wizard david duke. just about an hour later at 1:14 p.m., a surprise attack. the appalling scene that shocked the country. police say an alleged white nationalist plows his grey dodge
challenger into a group of counterprotesters. the driver then reverses and accelerates, sending bodies flying all over the streets as he flees the scene. >> it hit like two or three other cars, and pinned people in between the cars, smashed into people. >> reporter: 19 were injured. 32-year-old heather heyer was killed. police identify the driver as 20-year-old james alex fields jr., who was caught by our abc cameras before the attack marching with a white nationalist group. fields was charged with second degree murder and has not yet entered a plea. when we asked matt heimbach about the alleged killer in the ranks, he tries to justify it. >> it's a man's right to defend himself against a mob that is actively cheering to kill you. >> you're not going to disassociate yourself from him at all? >> not at all. >> the aftermath of the brutal eruption of violence sparked by white nationalists. >> reporter: the repercussions from the event have dominated
the news all week, and the president actually igniting an even bigger fire. >> i think there's blame on both sides and i have no doubt about it. but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. >> that's a failure to fundamentally understand what the alt-right, what white supremacists are all about. that is dangerous. >> reporter: indeed, even gop leaders thought it was a presidential message of endorsement for white nationalists. richard spencer tweeting, "i'm proud of him for speaking the truth." >> reporter: but to the grieving mother of heather heyer, killed in that car attack, trump's words equating her daughter with the kkk and white supremacists were deeply hurtful. announcing just this morning that she's refusing to even take the president's call. >> you can't wash this one away by shaking my hand and saying i'm sorry. think before you speak.
>> reporter: next, "20/20" brings together the two lightning rods of the alt-right and antifa, richard spencer and lacy macauley. is there any hope of both sides pulling back from the brink? >> you're not going to stop us. because you don't matter. >> yes, yes. we will stop you. >> reporter: two bitter enemies
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geico motorcycle, great rates for great rides. >> reporter: after months of documenting their fight for a fractured america, we brought white nationalist richard antif macauley together for an encounter which didn't involve police barricades or weapons. >> hello, i'm lacy macaulay. >> nice to meet you. >> i would prefer not to shake your hand. >> reporter: it doesn't start well. >> i could smell the antifa activist from yards away. the foul stench of never bathing. >> reporter: macauley refuses to condemn that infamous punch spencer took on inauguration day. but lacey, i got to stop you there. a punch in the face is a punch in the face. >> genocide is genocide. i'm sorry but, like, i don't think anyone has sympathy for people who are actually actively advocating for policies of genocide. >> i'm not. >> you would like a white homeland. and to me, that says genocide.
people are going to suffer, people are going to die. i have no respect for that mentality. >> i don't want anyone to die. >> reporter: spencer blames antifa for most of the violence between the groups, but also insists his people will defend themselves. >> we're never going to win by unilaterally disarming ourselves. we're going to win when they know that if they punch us, we're going to punch them back so hard that they never knew what was coming. >> reporter: but isn't that -- excuse me for using the phrase, a bs argument? >> no. >> reporter: because if the goal is an all-white homeland, that is the goal. how do you do that within the laws in the united states? >> this is a big ideal for the future. >> reporter: the southern poverty law center shows us the numbers. there's a rise in hate crimes and they directly attribute the rise in hate crimes to you specifically. they mention you by name. >> okay. >> reporter: what do you say to that? >> that's total [ bleep ] and the splc's total [ bleep ]. what is a hate crime? if anyone on the alt-right instigated violence, i would dissociate myself with them, totally.
>> have you then? >> antifa is instigating violence constantly and they aren't just instigating violence against me, they're instigating violence against random people in trump hats. >> when they attack your rights, you fight back. >> speech is not violence, and violence is not speech. >> reporter: well, words are powerful. >> words change the world. a word is not a bullet. >> reporter: while spencer yearns for a white homeland, macauley dreams of an anarchist utopia. >> you want to deconstruct government, so that you don't -- >> i would like to, actually, bring power back to the people. we need to bring power back into our communities and neighborhoods. >> good luck. >> not if we have any last little breath. >> you're not going to stop us. because you don't matter. >> yes, yes. we will stop you. >> ultimately, people like me give meaning to your life. you care a lot about me. >> guess what? i wouldn't care about you -- >> you wouldn't have a life without me. >> actually, i'm sorry, guess what? news flash. i do a lot of work actually. you're a little small part of
this. >> reporter: and with that the two agree to remain best of enemies. and perhaps it is true that in some way, they feed off of each other for attention. but back in charlottesville, where a young woman died in the streets, a show of unity. a reminder that most political demonstrators are nonviolent and glimmers of hope that maybe we can find a way out. >> you'll certainly have a lot of thoughts, and we want to hear them. >> join our national conversation on facebook and twitter. >> i'm elizabeth vargas. >> and i'm david muir. from all of us at "20/20" and abc news, thanks for watching tonight. have a good evening. good night. breaking news tonight. four police officers have been shot in florida, at least one is dead. >> next, the latdest information
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