i say, are you out of your

f-ing mind? >> this is constitutional mischief. >> vice president pence's life in danger during the capitol riot when he refused to go along. >> approximately 40 feet. that's all there was. 40 feet between the vice president and the mob. >> i'll talk to one of the committee members, democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland. plus, the economy. prices everywhere going up. >> everyone's had it up to here. really. >> interest rates too. >> we're strongly committed to bringing inflation back down. >> leading to a sinking stock market. >> today was brutal. >> over fears of a coming recession. my guest this morning, former treasury secretary larry summer who said a recession is likely. also, thanks to the troubled economy and president biden's age, democrats are worried about the president's 2024 chances, and whether he should even run again. joining me for insight and analysis are, nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander, maria, republican

strategist brendan, and politico national correspondent betsy woodruff swan. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning on this juneteenth holiday. happy father's day to all the dads out there. 50 years after the watergate break-in, we learn this week a lot about another president, donald trump and all of that president's men. we learned that the january 6th hearings that mr. trump was told repeatedly he lost the election but continued to insist he'd won and he spread the lie that the election was rigged anyway. we learn that mr. trump was told repeatedly vice president mike pence could unilaterally overturn the election was illegal and unconstitutional but continued to pressure pence to

do so anyway and we learn the people advising mr. trump likely believed their plot was illegal and unconstitutional but they urged mr. trump to go ahead anyway. what is emerging from the past hearings is a president more defiant than delusional, tried to hang on to power not because he thought it was right but because he thought he could. finally, we've learned january 6th was no one day event, but the end result of weeks of planning and scheming by a president who could not and cannot admit that he lost the election and was rejected by the american electorate. standing in the way of mr. trump's plan was mr. pence who ended up withstanding enormous pressure to go along with this. >> if mike pence does the right thing, we win the election. >> in a relentless pressure campaign, donald trump pushed vice president to overturn the loss even as pence's life was in danger.

he knew his plan to have pence obstruct was fraud. claimed it was false and campaign advisers again and again. >> he really believes this stuff, he's lost contact, he's become detached from reality. >> as trump failed in earlier attempts to reverse the outcome, lawyer john eastman began promoting a plan to have pence refuse to certify electors. on january 4th, trump and pence met at the white house with eastman who acknowledged the plan was not legal. >> did john eastman ever admit in front of the president that his proposal would violate the electoral count? >> i believe he did on the 4th. >> but that evening in georgia -- >> i hope mike pence goes through for us. >> on january 5th, eastman acknowledged that the supreme court would reject the plan to

keep trump in power, in effect, a blueprint for a coup. >> he initially started, maybe lose 7-2 and after further discussion, acknowledged, well, yeah, you're right, we would lose 9-1. >> i said are you out of your f-ing mind? are you completely crazy? you're going to turn around and tell 78 plus million people in this country that this is how you're going to invalidate their votes? >> on january 6th, president trump's campaign elevated, with a tweet, do it, mike, and then with a phone call. >> the conversation was pretty heated. it was a different tone than i'd heard him take with the vice president before. >> do you remember what she said? her father called him? >> the word. >> i hope mike has the courage

to do what he has to do, and i hope he doesn't listen to the rinos and the stupid people he's listening to. >> at 12:53, pence released a letter saying he didn't have the authority to overturn the will of the voters. at 1:00 p.m., he convened a joint of congress and then the first group who gathered at the capitol to pressure pence had reached the west front, clashing with officers. >> he deserves to burn with the rest of them. pence voted against trump. >> that's when this started? >> yep, that's when we marched on the capitol. >> hfs notified of the violence on the capitol by 2:00 p.m. and likely earlier. the testimony further establishes that mr. meadows quickly informed the president, rioters breached the capitol at 2:13 p.m. >> we thought that the president needed to tweet something and tweet something immediately. >> mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution.

a chance to certify a corrected sense of facts. >> it felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by doing that. >> the secret service couldn't do their job in this situation. >> secret service rushed vice president pence down the stairs. >> approximately 40 feet, that's all there was. 40 feet between the vice president and the mob. the confidential informant and the proud boys told the fbi the proud boys would have killed mike pence if given a chance. >> and joining me now is a member of the january 6th select committee, democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland, the lead in the senate impeachment. >> delighted to be here. >> let me start with what you believe were the most important hearings this past week? >> donald trump knew the big lie was a big lie. they used it also as a big shakedown, and a ripoff of his

supporters to keep money rolling in. usually, when a campaign is over and someone lost, it's very difficult to raise money but they raised more than $200 million based on that lie. and, you know, there's what i'm calling the big joke. the idea that nobody had noticed that for more than two centuries, the vice president somehow has the unilateral power to decide who's going to be the next president, and they invented a new theory with john eastman in their whole green base suite that the vice president could step outside of his constitutional role to exercise unilateral extra constitutional authority to reject the electoral college votes sent in by governor representing tens of millions of people. that was an attempt, essentially, to use subterfuge and trickery and coercion to overthrow the will of the people. they were trying to steal a presidential election and seize the presidency. >> what's your barometer for

success for these hearings? >> well, we have to tell the truth to the american people because in a democracy, the people have a right to the truth. that's what it means to be a democracy. you know, madison said that those who need to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power that knowledge gives, and it's a tough knowledge. it's a difficult knowledge, but everybody needs to know. we almost suffered a coup and we did suffer a violent insurrection on january 6th. >> is just getting an historical record enough or does there need to be some justice? >> there needs to be accountability, and that can mean two things. one, individual criminal accountability that people pay for their particular crimes as more than 800 people have already been prosecuted for everything from assaulting the federal officer to interfering with a federal proceedings and seditious conspiracy, conspiracy to overthrow and put down the government of the united states but accountability also means

collective accountability and that's the real project we're engaged in under house resolution 503. telling the truth to the people so we can make decisions about how to forty democratic constituents going forward. >> president trump lashed out at the committee and vice president pence. just in the last 48 hours. and essentially, has not changed his view. he calls mike pence weak. he says, a conveyor belt. this admission that he won continues after laying all, is that, is he confessing it? >> he's saying, yeah, i did it and i'll do it again. which is what we have been contending all along, that if you allow impunity for attempts at unconstitutional seizures of power, which is what a coup is, then you're inviting it again in the future. and to be a strong

self-sustaining self-respecting democracy, we can't allow people to decide that they are above the law and that they are more important than outward constitutional processes. >> every time donald trump goes out there and essentially readmits to what he did, what should be the reaction to the attorney general, every time the former president? >> the attorney general shouldn't really be reacting to particular provocations by particular politicians or criminals. i mean, that's not really the role of the attorney general. the role of the attorney general is to determine based on the facts and the law whether there's probable cause to believe that somebody has violated the federal law in the united states, and then to follow the criteria in the department of justice. look at the culpability of the defendant, to what extent they acted willfully to do a criminal act. you've got to look at the gravity and nature of the

events. of course, this offense has massive implications for the rule of law and you've got to look at deterrence. do we want to move into a system of government where losers and presidential elections can try to overturn the election by non-violent or violent means? >> given everything you know, if you were in his shoes, do you think this was a close call or not? >> i'll leave that judgment to them. one of the many things that donald trump destroyed during his time in office was the idea that the political branches have to respect the independence of the law enforcement function, so that really is up to them and we're talking about people who are very confident. >> a constitutional law professor before you got into this job. you believe this is a close call for merrick garland. >> i come back to the culpability of the defendant, the nature of the offense, which i think is extraordinarily grave here. it's hard to think of a more grave offense, and the question

of deterrence. is it important to deter coups and insurrections, but i would say that's deep as i want to get into the weeds on it. >> i want to ask about a couple of things that came up in the hearing i'd like clarification on. first, i'd like to play something mr. jacob, the vice president's then counsel. he advised the refusal to be evacuated by the secret service but there was a specific detail he mentioned i want to ask you about. take a listen. >> ahead of his secret service detail, tim had said, i assure you, we're not going to drive out of the building without your permission and the vice president had said something to the effect of, tim, i know you, i trust you, but you're not the one behind the wheel. >> you had indicated a couple of months ago how chilling this was. that's, that felt like a hanging meatball hanging out there. there wasn't a follow-up on this. why was the vice president concerned that his head of detail wasn't the one?

>> well, first of all, i think this was a moment of real courage displayed by vice president pence because what he was saying was, i'm not leaving the capitol until we count the votes by the amendment and the electoral count act. you know, the colloquial phrase, who's behind the wheel, can mean a lot of different things. it can mean, well, who ultimately is commanding the secret service and telling everybody who's behind -- >> some question. the former, there was an acting deputy chief of staff that was a member of the secret service of the president, is that where this is going and you have any other evidence to indicate that there were real concerns about who the secret service, pence's detail was listening to? >> i don't want to get into that. to me, it's obviously of interest and i'm sure it's of

interest to vice president pence in terms of his own whereabouts and his own movement, but in terms of the big picture, we know that there was an organized hit against our democracy. there was an attempt, a successful attempt to block the transfer of power, to impede congress in the joint session, counting electoral college votes, and then the effort to get pence to declare these absurd powers to unilaterally reject electors. i think he was wise not to have left the capitol. none of us wanted to leave the capitol, and when we were forced out of our chambers, i think that most members, certainly every member of my party, i know ms. cheney, most say we must complete this task tonight. >> are you pursuing this line of investigation more? is somebody else, or is this something you feel like you've gotten everything you can to

find out who was in charge of the secret service? >> this is not the hearing that i'm going to be conducting? we've sort of divided up the labor, and i'm working on the mobilization of the mob and the domestic violent extremist group like the proud boys, oath keepers, 3%ers and so forth. >> here? >> in a time of absolutely scandalous betrayal of people's oaths of office and crimes being committed all over the place, somebody who does their job and sticks to the law will stand out as a hero on that day, and i think on that day, he was a hero for resisting all of the pressure campaigns and the coercive efforts to get him to play along with this continuation of the big lie, this big joke that he could

somehow call off all the proceedings himself. i mean, it likely would have forced everything into the house of representatives for so-called contingent election, where the gop knew that they had a majority of state delegations because we vote in the 12th amendment contingent election on the basis of one's state, one vote, rather than one number one vote. >> if we're going to be more investigation, the deterrent has to become part of the calculation here. something though that the judge seemed to have talked about the clear and present danger that we are in and he added this in his testimony. to this very day, the former president, his allies and supporters pledge that the in the presidential election of 2024, that if a former president or successor were to lose the election, they would attempt to overturn the election just like the 2020 election, but succeed. is there any change to the law

that actually could prevent this or are we, at the end of the day, you've got to hope human being beings are going to do the right thing. can you legislate doing the right thing? >> there are a number of reforms to electoral count act and the right to vote and the electoral process that will dramatically reduce the chances that someone can succeed in trying to impose and exercise a political will over the rule of law. i think you're right that ultimately if someone has no respect for the rule of law and believes only in their own power, in obsessive narcissistic way, there's little to deter the person but there's things to fortify us against them, and that is an important part of the committee's work. perhaps the most part is judge luttig was saying, he's like justice scalia to the conservative right. he's like, robert bork, and he's

out there blowing the whistle, a clear and present danger right now heading into the 2024 elections that donald trump that the trumpist forces would attempt the same kind of maneuver to usurp the will of the people and just declare himself present. that's extraordinary. >> you've talked in the last week, new information comes all the time. do you have new witnesses, people, or new factual information? >> it's both. there are still people who are turning over information to the committee. >> new emails we know that came through? that's clear. >> and there are people who are just realizing that they are in possession of facts or evidence that the committee might not have, and the chairman has encouraged everybody to come forward, we've got to tip a line. >> useful information, provided you with actual concrete information that ended up being true? investigating? >> we know things this weekend that we didn't know last weekend. >> and things that are going to be important facts that we

didn't even know yet? >> it's all part of a picture, but again, the general story has been known for a long time. we have a president who, for whatever reason, refused to accept the results of the presidential election and then organize in a hit against american democracy through a number of different avenues to try to overthrow the election and install himself as president. >> you're part of the investigation. were sitting members of congress, do you have evidence that sitting members of congress helped the proud boys and oath keepers prepare for the january 6th insurrection? >> i don't want to comment on specific members. >> are members of congress that we've seen release that tour, does that mean more is to come? >> there have been, there are different elements of this hit, and we're discussing all of

them. there was the so-called green deal sweep, the attempt to overturn joe biden's lawful majority in the electoral college. there was also a violent street insurrection and insurrection with violence unleashed against the capitol. we're going to tell all parts of it, and we're going to invoke the names of everybody relevant who's implied. >> thank you, jamie raskin, i appreciate you coming and share your perspective. gas prices, inflation, all of it is rising and so are fears of a

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jobs, an all time record. >> if people aren't listening, it's because inflation is eating away at wage increases. the dow now is down 18% for the year so far after another rough week. the fed just raised interest rates. 0.75% and real doubts that the fed has the ability to cool inflation without triggering a recession. larry summers and adviser to president obama. he saw high inflation coming and said there's real danger of a recession ahead and joins me now. mr. summers, welcome back to "meet the press." >> happy father's day, chuck. >> thank you, happy father's day to you. two takes on what's coming. you've got president biden in an interview with the associated press, he said a recession is not inevitable. secondly, we're in a stronger position than any nation in the world to overcome this inflation, and then you've got jamie dimon who essentially says, i said there were storm

clouds, big storm clouds hanging over this economy, and now it's a hurricane. so can both statements be true or essentially is one person seeing a recession and another person not? >> look, nothing is certain and all economic forecasts have uncertainty. my best guess is that a recession is ahead. i base that on the fact that we haven't had a situation like the present with inflation above 4 and unemployment below 4 without a recession following within a year or two. so i think the likelihood is that in order to do what's necessary to stop inflation, the fed is going to raise interest rates enough that the economy will slip into recession. i think that view which was not

a common view a couple of months ago is now the view of a number of statistical models and the view of a range of forecasters and i think it will increasingly become consensus view. >> is a recession, a mild one necessary in order to tame inflation? can inflation at this point be tamed without triggering a recession? >> i don't think there are historical precedents for inflation at the rate we now have it coming down to the target the fed has set of 2% without a recession. i think all the precedents point towards a recession, chuck. there's always a first time for everything, and i don't want ever to make forecasts with

certainty, but if you look at a whole range of indicators, if you look at what's happened in markets, if you look at the relative levels of interest rates and different durations and surveys of consumer expectations, and if you look at the simple fact that what drives inflation is supply and demand. supply doesn't changethat fast, and so mostly what you need to do to reduce inflation is reduce demand, and that is a very hard process to control, and so it usually leads to recession. all of that tells me that while i wouldn't presume to be able to judge the timing, the dominant probability would be that by the end of next year, we would be seeing a recession in the

american economy. >> there's two things the administration is pondering in order to deal with a high cost, provides some relief. but i'm curious if you think those decisions could actually end up unfortunately contributing to inflation. so one would be a gas tax holiday. so you're lowering the price, making it easier for folks to go out there and buy more gas and then the second is, taking out off some of these trump-era tariffs. are any of those, if they're done as a relief mechanism for high prices, do any of those become inflationary? is there risk of both of those triggering a little bit more inflation? >> look, i think cutting the tariffs is clearly a good idea. it will hold down prices. it will enable us to take a more strategic approach to dealing with china, it will take a percentage point or more off the cpi over time, cutting tariffs is the right thing to do and i

hope the administration will find a way to do it. i'm no fan of the gas tax holiday. i think that's kind of a gimmick, and eventually you have to reverse it. i'll tell you what the most important thing is, chuck, and i'm not sure if it can save the situation and prevent a recession, but it would be a very positive contribution. if at long last, we can have some kind of bipartisan budget bill with three elements, with reduction of pharmaceutical prices, which will help health care and will also reduce the inflation rate. that's within our reach, if we just use the government's large purchasing power through medicare, number one. number two, put in place the partial repeal, not the full repeal but the partial repeal of the trump tax cuts, which would

take some demand out of the economy, increase confidence and reduce pressure on the fed and number three, all in more energy supply approach that emphasizes freeing up fossil fuels in various ways in the short run and making with government support the ultimate pivot to renewables. all of that would take pressure off the fed, would bring down the inflation rate, would operate to restore confidence, and would, i think, be a very positive contribution and i'm not privy to all the discussions and negotiations going on in washington, but surely, the most important thing for any public people is to try to find a deal long those lines. >> very quickly, a lot of

business leaders are frustrated by the fed. they felt like the fed didn't act soon enough. you certainly thought the fed should have acted sooner. any concern that the fed is now going to overreact? raise interest rates too high while pulling money out of the market, quantitative tightening, is there a bigger risk of them doing too much or still worried they're going to do too little? >> i think they've got to find a balance, but you know, chuck, when the doctor prescribes aid and abet antibiotics, it can be a mistake to not carry through. and if the worst thing we could do would be to start to stop inflation and not do enough to slay the dragon, so i think the fed has to be very, very careful

here on that issue. they have made huge mistakes of being behind the curve. their models, i don't think are accurate for the latest situation and the latest forecast at the last meeting was wishful thinking to believe they could restrain inflation with unemployment, simply rising to slightly above 4%. so it's a hard job for the fed. >> larry summers, former treasury secretary, former chief economic adviser to president obama. really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us and again, happy father's day. when we come back, donald trump responds to the anuary j

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response, which i have to say, it's pretty striking. let's take a listen. >> mike pence had a chance to be great. he had a chance to be, frankly, historic, but mike did not have the courage to act. mike pence had absolutely no choice but to be a human conveyor belt, he was a human conveyor belt. >> peter, after all of that this week, he chose to go after mike pence again. you know, it almost feels like, i keep coming back to a few good men. he keeps confessing to ordering the code red. >> he also said it was a simple protest that got out of hand. it's not a simple protest that got out of hand. some former trump aides were struck by all the damning revelations they heard and most importantly, they came from republicans. pro-trump republicans and say

while that may not affect ultra maga republicans, independent-minded republicans, this could have an effect going forward but this lie so central to the republican party, take the state of michigan right now, the leading republican candidate for government ahead of their primaries. ryan kelly charged for his role. >> they made a resolution to say the second largest republican party in the country essentially, it said he was e illegitimately elected. what are you hearing from trump/pence world? >> what's made people uncomfortable is having videos of themselves splashed up for everybody to see. what's most unnerving for a host of these witnesses is less the content than the presentation. it's one thing if it's written down in a hundred page document that people may or may not read but a video clip on youtube

forever and that trump himself, of course, will be able to watch because that guy loves nothing more than good video content. that's something that's been caught in concerns prior to the hearings and those concerns are only escalating as the hearings unfold because people don't know who's going to be next. they know they were on video, they spoke, told the truth under oath. they don't know. are they going to get clipped or not get clipped? that's an unpleasant situation. >> how many republicans watch this going, how can i find a way to distance myself from trump even more without getting attacked by him? >> it's funny. the clips i saw was some people seemed cathartic for them. in the moment, they seemed to be relieved they could finally tell their story of what took place. republicans see this and it's the same story they've known for a long time. donald trump is not going to let go of this. we saw this past week. he's still going to lean in, still going to punch mike pence. he never learns his lesson. that's one of his biggest

vulnerabilities is that he won't be able to drop this, and i think what we've seen in places like georgia where voters are sort of over this, done talking about this. maybe they even side with him on this question, but it's not what they're focused on. >> keeping him from the nomination? has the committee done their job in your mind if it keeps, enough republicans to say, keep him away? >> i don't think this committee, and i think jamie raskin didn't even suggest it, i don't think they're going to influence a lot of voters. i think they know everybody has made up their minds. who's the audience? you asked the right questions. i think the audience is merrick garland. i think they try to prove a case to the department of justice there was a crime committed here and if there are political benefits, whether to impeach donald trump from running president, that's also part of the equation but i don't think they think there's going to be a political movement so much it's going to change enough minds that he's no longer viable. >> the importance of merrick garland acting and what would that do to the party if he doesn't? >> really interesting. as someone mentioned to me that

for most of his career, merrick garland has been an appellate court judge. he's used to coming to him. the other attorney generals, janet reno, ashcroft and our most recent one, holder, they were active lawyers, seeking the truth. they had to make cases, the passiveness we see from merrick garland is the way he has been created. that's how he is an actual judge, and so when he's asking for people for the testimony, the written transcripts, it's almost as if he's asking for congress to collect the evidence for him. and i think that's one of the reasons why they've been timid to actually direct the department of justice, that's why when you asked raskin directly, was he making any recommendations he doesn't want to but i would look closely at what liz cheney is doing. liz cheney said we need to make

some calculation to act. >> to be clear, there's a lot of conversation. will there be a criminal referral or not? what they've been testifying is in fact a criminal referral. you heard cheney herself saying this is illegal, unconstitutional. the bottom line is what i'm hearing from some folks who, on the democratic side have been saying, they don't think it would be helpful but counterproductive to be a criminal referral because it would further politicize the justice department which is what they're trying not to do. >> there's one really simple but underemphasized reason that this decision is so hard for the justice department, and that's because doj doesn't decide who's guilty. juries decide who's guilty and juries can be notoriously, and in the justice department, when they lost the huge case, trying to convict to kidnap gretchen whitmer, that was a sobering scary moment for prosecutors.

they thought it was open and shut, slam dunk. that's why as they go through this evidence connected to white house, trump, and officials, ultimately, in the final analysis, it's not their call. >> to make it toned down to make sure it's not political is having mike pence get more into the race. imagine right now our commission without liz cheney. that would then be completely political, but if mike pence goes into the republican parties, says, yes, i'm going to run, yes, he's the only republican right now that can actually share the truth and it's going to have to come within the republican party to basically break it. >> the star witness at any trial with donald trump, it's mike pence. i mean, i think we're all saying, what the heck would this look like? >> i think mike pence is ready for this to be over and does have the admission to run for 2024, the last conversation he wants to be having.

he wants to talk about the great things he did in the trump/pence administration. he can't allow his persona among the republican base to be defined by this question and right now, this is the central thing we know about mike pence, his role in this attempted coup. >> as every u.s. attorney i've talked to, if there is a prosecution of donald trump, you have to have mike pence as your star witness. when we come back, with gas prices going up daily, we'll look at what really goes into the price of the gallon of gas. but as we go to break, we want to note the passing of a fixture here in the late 20th century. mark was a political consultant, a columnist, great wit and most of all, familiar face and a cheerful face to many people on abc, cbs, nbc. many were republicans but equal opportunity critic of opportunity critic of politicians of many so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device that makes working from home work. a 12-megapixel lens makes sure your presentation

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contributing to the surge in prices, meaning there may not be a quick fix to bringing down fuel costs. it's not just about turning on the spigot, if you will. look, the price of gas, nationally here, the highest we've ever done. if you factor inflation, that is not the all-time high for gas but in today's dollars. part of the reason why gas has spiked is not just the price of oil, it's the issue of refining. in fact, 730,000 fewer barrels per day were refined in 2021. that created part of our capacity problem that we had. much of this, we had an idling issue. obviously, the sanctions against russia. 30% of our capacity, essentially idled thanks to the sanctions on russia. daily capacity dropped million barrels in our refining capacity since early 2020. so again, this is not the actual oil that we need or are looking

for. we have that. it's the ability to turn it into actual gasoline. if you want to understand what goes into the gallon of gas, we can show you but the price of oil takes up most of it. it takes a bigger chunk. in january 2021, the refining capacity was less for taxes and things like that. the amount of money refining is contributing to the price of gas is growing and growing at a much faster rate than other factors that go into a gallon of gas. so this the biggest problem we're dealing with. it is the ability to return more oil into gas, and again, this is not the all time high. that was back in 2008. but of course, in today's dollars, it is over $5. if you look back at previous dollars, we would be be at about $3.51. $3.51. when we come back, hyw think he's posting about all that ancient roman coinage? no, he's seizing the moment with merrill. moving his money into his investment account

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welcome back. peter alexander. the president has not given a lot of interviews to many reporters. he sat down with a reporter of "the associated press" and pretty blunt. people are really down, they're really down.

their need for mental health skyrocketed because people have seen everything upset, everything they counted on upset. that was a blunt, understandable reaction, but it was, what's the plan on dealing? >> he also said that a recession was not inevitable. he said be confident, but i think the white house in the conversations had is walking a tight rope. balancing empathy and then trying to, you don't want to say to americans the things are better than they are because americans realize they're not but what struck me in the conversations i've had over the last several days is the real frustrations among some democrats, a leading democratic lawmaker was rare in-person presentation earlier this week, where some of the white house officials went to the hill, they

said there was no strategy, no plan. this lawmaker said to me, we need to see the president be decisive and they really feel like there's decision paralysis on these key issues like tariffs and student loans. >> i heard this, he thought, particularly on tariffs, they've been doing this. let me tell you. this is what doug jones said to me on my podcast earlier this week about, he's stopped keeping biden caged in essentially. take a listen. >> joe has, he wears that office very well. he's very, he can be very presidential, but i think that they overcorrected and i think they need to let joe be joe. the gaffes and all. >> this has been a constant with him going back to the campaign, betsy. the staff seems overly protective. >> that's part of the reason he's outfront so little, a tiny number of recent interviews, and now, of course, in this ap interview, this message he's sending that people are

highlighting is that he's recognizing that there's a lot of pain and suffering in this country. >> a little jimmy carter flashback, a word he never actually said but malaise, infinite malaise speech. >> and that's something the senior white house staff are acutely aware of. the level of pain people are feeling. to your point, on the one hand, they don't want to say everything is terrible, sorry, things are so bad but not persuade people that gas costs less than it does and these questions about inflation and the economy are in the background of every senior white house staffer's mind as they're thinking about any number of policy issues. you think bidens reversal on saudi arabia didn't have an impact on the price of goods and services? >> would we have these whispers about 2024 and whatnot if it didn't appear, a lot of democrats say they don't appear to know how to respond to the economic challenge, so maybe you're not the guy. >> first of all, i think when we're in this point in time when

any president has low approval ratings, there's angst. i think we feel a particular angst because you have so many other forces that we normally don't see coming together. geopolitical instability and talking about the war in ukraine where you have oil prices impacting us, whether you actually have the opportunity to recover fully from covid, it's all a perfect storm. what we don't want to hear the president say though is that it's going to be hard if he doesn't actually talk about a plan. now, if he just released the strategic oil reserves, so we see a million barrels a day, that's good. what else is the plan? he can't just wag his finger at the oil companies without a plan of what he expects them to come do, and i think we're in the middle, i think we're coming out of the worst economic recession, indecisive political climate. whether we're talking about trump or recovery from covid, from where we were, what we're doing now and we're tough but we're in the middle of the eye of the storm and getting better. collective understanding of what

that looks like and he needs a plan to communicate that to people. >> one of the places to be is not in control of your own fate, and in the situation, the economy, the answer is not the president, it's the federal reserve. they're starting to take action and raising interest rates. the problem is, that's going to be painful as well. the antidote for a high inflation is mortgage rates, higher credit card rates, all kinds of things we see, but there is more pain to come. can't just turn the page on it. >> we have a minute left and another topic to get to was the gun deal. brendan, there was, i don't have time to play the issue but he was booed at the convention and chanting no red flag laws. is this, are senate republicans getting cold feet? >> i think they're acutely aware there's republican voters against any gun deal and this is sort of the issue, people used to say the nra is the reason republicans don't act. that's always been not quite right but voters and members. it's not the nra itself. they're afraid of the voters and

john cornyn saw that when he stood up in front of texas republicans who booed him but a big moment for john cornyn. the next majority leader after mitch mcconnell retires and the message to him is suck it up and you have to do hard things and this is the point of view like a ted cruz, play to the base or get things done. >> if you want a be a congressional leader, i have to choose, i don't want to be popular anymore. as we go, we want to note tomorrow is the second year we as a country formally recognize juneteenth as a federal holiday, marking the emancipation of african-americans from slavery. if you're not familiar with the celebration, take your time to educate yourself on this important part of our history. thank you for watching. happy father's day to all the dads out there. we'll be back next sunday, because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

breaking overnight, a shooting at a washington, d.c. music festival during a juneteenth celebration has left at least four shot and several others injured details are still coming in. a massive number of flights canceled, weather and crew shortages to blame over the holiday weekend. new details on covid vaccines for the very youngest including the timing and other details parents need to know. a special juneteenth celebration that took place in buffalo in the wake of the tops grocery store