tv 60 Minutes CBS March 11, 2018 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT
captioning funded by cbs and ford. we go further, so you can. >> for 133 years, a colossal statue of general robert e. lee towered over a traffic circle near downtown new orleans. until last may, when, to the cheers and jeers of onlookers, the confederacy's most celebrated military hero was hoisted off its pedestal. >> really, what these monuments were, were a lie. >> cooper: a lie in what sense? >> well, in the sense that-- that robert e. lee was used as an example, to send a message to the rest of the country, and to all the people that lived here, that the confederacy was a noble cause. and that's just not true. >> cooper: this is incredible. mayor landrieu agreed to show us what's become of generals lee
and beauregard. they've been gathering dust for nearly a year. wow. >> stahl: they're some of the most athletic horses in the world, worth large sums of money, and incredibly, they're clones, grown from cells taken from one of the best horses ever. and they belong to this man, the number one polo player in the world. as far as you are thinking, they're exactly the same in health, longevity. >> si. >> stahl: ability to play the game, all of it. >> similar. similar. the good thing about it, they are machines, all of them. >> stahl: "machines"-- that's polo talk for horses that never quit. but how do they perform in competition? tonight, you will find out. >> i'm steve kroft. >> i'm lesley stahl. >> i'm scott pelley. >> i'm anderson cooper. >> i'm bill whitaker. those stories, tonight, on this special edition of "60 minutes."
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>> cooper: it's hard to forget the violence that broke out in charlottesville, virginia seven months ago, when hundreds of white supremacists showed up to protest the proposed removal of a statue of general robert e. lee, a confederate hero of the civil war. what happened that weekend reignited a national debate about what to do with some 700 other confederate monuments in towns and cities across the country, mostly in the south. we decided to take a closer look at these monuments, and were surprised to learn not just when they were built and why, but who wants to tear them down, and who doesn't. we began in new orleans, where the culmination of mayor mitch landrieu's crusade to remove four confederate monuments looked more like a military operation than a construction job. when the city of new orleans removed a giant statue of p.g.t. beauregard, a confederate general who ordered the first shots fired in the civil war, they did it in the dead of night. construction crews wore bulletproof helmets and vests,
and police snipers were stationed on rooftops nearby. mayor mitch landrieu says it was impossible to find a local company that would take the job. >> mitch landrieu: when we put the thing out to bid, the one contractor that showed up, had his life threatened. he had his car bombed. >> cooper: his-- his car was actually-- ? >> landrieu: his car was actually fire-bombed. death threats were coming in. and so, i couldn't find a crane. i could not find a damn crane. >> cooper: in new orleans, you could not get a-- >> landrieu: in new orleans. i couldn't find a crane in louisiana. >> cooper: mayor landrieu finally found a contractor from out of state, and last spring, after years of legal wrangling, took down four confederate monuments. the last one removed was a 16.5-foot bronze statue of general robert e. lee. it had stood for 133 years... ( cheers and jeers ) ...until last may, when, to the cheers and jeers of onlookers, the confederacy's most celebrated military hero was hoisted off its 68-foot pedestal. >> landrieu: in a city that i represent, that's 67% african american, to have a young
african american girl pass by that statue and look at it every day, i ask myself, "am i really preparing for her-- a really good future? is she feeling like she's getting lifted up by the government, or is she being put down?" i mean, i think the answer's pretty clear. really, what these monuments were, were a lie. >> cooper: a lie in what sense? >> landrieu: well, in the sense that-- that robert e. lee was used as an example, to send a message to the rest of the country, and to all the people that lived here, that the confederacy was a noble cause. and that's just not true. >> cooper: this is incredible. mayor landrieu agreed to show us what's become of generals lee and beauregard. they've been gathering dust for nearly a year. >> landrieu: that-- that's the first time i've seen them there. >> cooper: is that right? >> landrieu: uh-huh, yup. they're pretty daunting. >> cooper: hidden away in this hastily built plywood shed, in a location we were asked not to reveal. >> landrieu: and you can see, they're in the civil war gear, the-- the military monuments. you know, they're there to revere them for their military service in propagation of the civil war. >> cooper: you look at these
monuments, you wouldn't know the confederacy lost. >> landrieu: well, that was the whole point. the whole point was to convince people that, actually, they won, and even in their defeat, it was a noble cause. and of course, the whole point of this is to-- is to confront history. i mean, this wasn't an l.s.u.- alabama football game where it didn't matter who won and lost, and you just got bragging rights. i mean, we were talking about millions of people enslaved, 600,000 american citizens were killed, and they were trying to destroy the country. >> cooper: the statues will likely end up in a museum, never again to be displayed on public property in the city of new orleans. >> landrieu: i really did want to make a definitive statement, as a white man from the south, as the mayor of a major american city at the dawning of the 21st century, that it's not unclear anymore about what the civil war was about and who won, and what the values are that we should really revere. >> cooper: after the removal of the statues in new orleans, and the violence in charlottesville, cities, universities, and activists across the country began re-thinking what confederate monuments said about their values.
several were removed in baltimore and also in austin, texas. in durham, north carolina protesters tore down a statue of a confederate soldier outside an old courthouse. ( yelling and cheering ) no state has more confederate monuments to revere or revile than the commonwealth of virginia. in richmond, the capital, there's a contentious debate about what to do about five prominent confederate statues on monument avenue. >> julian hayter: all these years later, the civil war, in many ways, is still contested ground. this is contested ground. >> cooper: this is ground zero of this debate. >> hayter: absolutely. in large part, because it was the capital of the confederacy. >> cooper: julian hayter is a historian at the university of richmond. >> hayter: monument avenue is not just a national tourist attraction, but an international tourist attraction. >> cooper: monument avenue is like a confederate walk of fame. there are the generals: robert e. lee and his horse traveler; "stonewall" jackson; and jeb stuart; the president of the
confederacy, jefferson davis; and finally, matthew fontaine maury, a somewhat more obscure figure who tried and failed to start a confederate colony in mexico. >> hayter: those monuments, in many ways, are part and parcel of what we call the lost cause. >> cooper: the lost cause, what does that mean? >> hayter: the lost cause, quite frankly, is just the confederate reinterpretation of the civil war. it's created almost immediately after the war ends by confederate leadership. it was hard for a lot of people, in my estimation, to believe that their ancestors died and-- and fought for an ignoble cause. 600-and-some-odd-thousand people died in the civil war, which is more americans than died in the second world war. and people had to make sense of that. >> cooper: believers in the lost cause who raised money to build monuments in town and cities across the country were often veterans, or their widows and children. lost cause ideology portrayed confederate soldiers as heroes defending states' rights against
northern aggression, and downplayed slavery's role in causing the war. the first confederate statue on monument avenue wasn't built until 1890, 25 years after the civil war ended. the last one went up in 1929. you've written that these statues serve white supremacy. >> hayter: sure. and that, by the way, is a critical component of the lost cause. the idea that african americans were not only happy slaves, but they were unprepared for freedom. the idea that african americans were helpless after the civil war. and in that way, it represents the continuation of the ways that whites think about black folks' intellectual abilities, not just during slavery, but shortly thereafter. >> cooper: in the years after slavery was abolished and the civil war ended, what became known as jim crow laws were passed that made african americans second-class citizens. >> hayter: there are laws that disenfranchise african americans from their-- the 15th amendment's right to vote. there are laws that restrict their movements. they represent, more broadly,
the attempt to reassert control over african americans after the abolition of slavery. >> cooper: and these monuments are part of that? >> hayter: oh, absolutely. they're just as much a part of jim crow as they are of the civil war and slavery. that's when they were built. they were built in the 20th century. very few people seem to-- to understand that these monuments were built during-- during segregation. >> levar stoney: the monuments are just a symbol of the effort to ensure african americans stayed, maybe not in physical bondage, but in bondage in political and economically in this country and in this city. >> cooper: richmond's mayor, levar stoney, created a commission last june, on the future of monument avenue. >> stoney: those who chose to erect those monuments and the figures who are glorified in those monuments-- they made some serious attempts, to ensure that people who look like me would never hold any political office ever in virginia. >> cooper: with charlottesville, were you surprised at how many people were willing to come out
and show their true colors, show their nazi flags? >> stoney: i think it woke a lot of people up, not just here in the commonwealth of virginia, but around the country. ( crowd chanting ) >> cooper: there have been protests in richmond over the future of monument avenue. the city has already spent more than half a million dollars on security. mayor stoney says he wants the statues taken down. >> stoney: it is, for me, the greatest example of nostalgia masquerading as-- as history. >> cooper: it's not real history? >> stoney: it's-- well, it-- it's the fake news of their time. >> professor william cooper: well, he and i just disagree. they're a part of history. >> cooper: william j. cooper says removing confederate monuments is a mistake. he was a professor of history at louisiana state university for 46 years, and is a past president of the southern historical association. one of the things that mitch landrieu said, that stuck in my mind, he said there is a difference between remembrance of history and reverence for it. and that-- that these statues are revering a false history. >> prof. cooper: well, it's not a false history.
it's not a false history. the monument was put up there by real people who had real beliefs. maybe we don't like their beliefs. but one of the things that bothers me most as a historian is what i call "presentism," judging the past by the present. figuring that we are the only moral people, that nobody else could be moral if they didn't think like we think. >> cooper: when you hear people saying that these-- these-- these monuments celebrate white supremacy-- because that's sort of the common refrain. >> prof. cooper: when you say "celebrate white supremacy"-- that's not incorrect. i mean, they do celebrate white supremacy. but they weren't put up to celebrate white supremacy. >> cooper: really? i mean-- >> prof. cooper: no, they were put up to celebrate the confederacy. >> cooper: but, if the statues do celebrate white supremacy, should they be up today? >> prof. cooper: well, should mount vernon be up today? should we go burn monticello down tomorrow? certainly thomas jefferson believed in white supremacy. >> cooper: you're saying this is a slippery slope? >> prof. cooper: that's a very slippery slope. >> hayter: i would say the difference, the critical difference between washington
and jefferson and lee, and men like lee, is that while washington and jefferson were complicated individuals-- and by our standards, thought about ideas in an entirely anachronistic way, they also baked in the constitution the components that allowed people to dismantle the slave system. they built as much as they destroyed. i cannot say the same thing for the confederacy. >> cooper: professor hayter was appointed by richmond's mayor to the commission that's going to make recommendations on what should happen on monument avenue. >> hayter: there are 75 million people in the south who are the descendants of confederate soldiers. and who i am to tell them that they cannot celebrate their ancestor in a particular way? but i also have ancestors who were the victims of the slave system, and i see no reason why we can't find a usable way to tell two stories, or tell multiple stories. >> cooper: that tell the truth. >> hayter: not a romanticized
version of the truth, where people are trying to absolve themselves from the deep inhumanities of what the confederacy stood for, but people who are willing to face down history for what it is, in all its ugliness, and all its beauty. >> cooper: do you believe the statue should be removed? >> hayter: no. i'm a historian, and i think that the statues should stay, with a footnote of epic proportions. >> cooper: essentially, you're suggesting-- >> hayter: i'm suggesting we do a little bit of historical jujitsu. i'm-- right? i'm suggesting we use the scale and grandeur of those monuments against themselves. i think we lack imagination when we talk about memorials. it's all or nothing. it's leave them this way, or tear them down, as if there's nothing in between that we could do to tell a more enriching story about american history. >> cooper: historians call it recontextualization, the addition of signs or markers with information about when and why the statues were built, to
help people see old monuments in a new light. so, you'd like to see signs or placards or historical-- >> hayter: anywhere-- >> cooper: --lessons somewhere. >> hayter: anywhere around here, right. >> cooper: --around here. >> hayter: perhaps even on this sidewalk. >> cooper: so that as people approach the statue-- >> hayter: they can read the story of-- >> cooper: and they can understand the context-- >> hayter: absolutely. >> cooper: --in, in which it was built-- >> hayter: absolutely. >> cooper: --and the reason it was built. >> hayter: yep. you could have a glass placard here, and etched into that glass placard would be a story. and then when you look through it, you can still see the lee monument, but you see it through the lens of a more accurate historical depiction. >> cooper: in the most recent poll about monument avenue, more richmond area residents said they preferred some form of recontextualization, over keeping the statues as they are or removing them. so someone walking down monument avenue today, what kind of a view do you think they would get about slavery, about the civil war? >> hayter: i don't think they'd get much of a view at all. >> cooper: the only representation of an african american you'll find on monument avenue is a statue of richmond native and tennis great arthur ashe.
he's surrounded by children, and holds a stack of books in his right hand and a tennis racquet in his left. >> hayter: it was unveiled in 1996, in some ways as a proverbial middle finger to the other monuments. and believe me, this town exploded when they told the public that they were going to build the-- the arthur ashe statue on monument avenue. >> cooper: a lot of people didn't want it built. >> hayter: oh, no. >> cooper: no matter what julian hayter and the monument commission he serves on recommends, it might not have much impact. unke in new orleans, the confederate statues here may be protected by state law, and the republican-controlled virginia general assembly is unlikely to approve major changes any time soon. one person who that might have disappointed is robert e. lee. before he died in 1870, he was on record opposing the building of civil war monuments in the north and the south. "wiser," he once wrote, "not to keep open the sores of war."
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>> stahl: you don't expect to hear that some of the most cutting-edge biotechnology is now part of the elite game of polo, the ancient sport of kings, but on a trip to argentina last december, we went to a big polo match, and discovered that several of the champion horses on the field were clones. ( cheers ) it's a big day in buenos aires. the final match in this year's world cup-slash-super bowl of polo, called the argentine open, with the usual pageantry-- the tango included. in polo, the horses, called ponies, are just as important as their riders. the two teams are la dolfina in
white and ellerstina in black. each team has four players, who ride as many as a dozen horses during matches. all of the players today have reached the highest ranking in the sport, a ten-goal handicap. the player generating the most interest is the man in the blue and white helmet, adolfo cambiaso. he's led his team to victory for the last five years. at 42, he's the tom brady of polo. >> adolfo cambiaso: i love the sport that i do. i love polo. i love horses. and so i try to be the best. >> stahl: you are number one in the world in your sport. that's stunning, isn't it? >> cambiaso: it's strange. when they say it to you, you don't feel like it, but-- >> stahl: how long have you had this title? how many years? >> cambiaso: for 22 years. >> stahl: you've been the best in the world for 22 years? >> cambiaso: that's what they say. ( laughs )
>> stahl: at age 25, adolfo decided to create his own polo team, called la dolfina, and a breeding business from scratch. today, he has nearly 1,000 horses, that are fed a special diet of plants and grasses grown on his massive farms. >> cambiaso: if they have a little pain somewhere, i dig a swimming pool for them just to swim. >> stahl: a swimming pool for the horses, where they do laps and stretch out their sore muscles. and they like it? >> cambiaso: they love it. >> stahl: they do? they like to-- >> cambiaso: they love it. they jump in. it's amazing. >> stahl: his most prized horse for a long time was named aiken cura, but at the argentine open 12 years ago, aiken cura's leg was broken, and adolfo was devastated. >> cambiaso: more than anything, i say, "save this horse." >> stahl: he was your favorite-- >> cambiaso: yes. >> stahl: but the horse could not be saved. before they put him down, adolfo
made a fateful decision. he asked his veterinarian to save some of the horse's skin cells. he thought that one day, he could bring aiken cura back to life through cloning. >> cambiaso: i was really sad, and i say cloning should work-- >> stahl: how did that come into your head? >> cambiaso: i don't know. i decided to keep some cells from him, just in case, years later, cloning-- is normal. >> stahl: he remembered dolly the sheep, the first cloned mammal. since then, scientists have cloned cows, pigs, goats, and in 2003, the first horse. biologist adrian mutto, one of the first scientists to clone in argentina, showed us the process: he starts with an egg extracted minutes earlier from a mare. >> adrian mutto: you can see here, this is an egg. and with that needle, we eliminate all d.n.a. of each egg. >> stahl: next, he replaces it
with the d.n.a. of the horse they want to clone. >> mutto: the next step is introduce again into the, into the egg, the needle. this is the d.n.a. into the egg. >> stahl: you did it? >> mutto: yeah, this is our cell and this is the egg. >> stahl: and that's it. >> mutto: that's it. >> stahl: the new embryos are then incubated for one week. no sperm has been involved. >> mutto: we don't need the sperm. >> stahl: there's no male-- >> mutto: yes. yes, no male here. only me. >> stahl: ( laughs ) but, but that's incredible. so, it's not a male-female reproduction at all. >> mutto: yes. >> stahl: you're just taking a cell from whichever. could be a mare, or could be a male horse-- >> mutto: yes. >> stahl: and you're putting it in this egg-- >> mutto: the cell, into the egg. >> stahl: no sex at all? >> mutto: and-- we, no. poor horses. >> stahl: the incubated egg is implanted in a surrogate mare, who gives birth to the clone, like this one, that's three weeks old.
cloning represented a business opportunity to this man, texas oil heir and polo enthusiast alan meeker. he had long dreamt of building a fleet of champion horses, and now had a way to do it. >> alan meeker: i did some short math and i realized it would take 50 years and about $100 million to do what i wanted to do. and i thought, "well, why don't i just clone a bunch of horses? really, really good horses." >> stahl: in 2009, meeker founded a horse-cloning business, and a year later, licensed the technology that was used to clone dolly the sheep. >> meeker: "okay, now-- now i need to find the best horses." so i put together an idea of licensing the genetics from the very best breeders in polo. adolfo. >> stahl: was he considered one of the best breeders? not just the best players, but also one of the best breeders? >> meeker: breeders and owners of horses. his horses were performing
better than anyone else. >> stahl: when alan first approached you about cloning? >> cambiaso: and i say yes the first day. >> stahl: immediately. >> cambiaso: yes. >> stahl: and, "guess what," you said, "alan, guess what i have?" >> cambiaso: yeah. i want to tell him that i have cells from a horse that i really loved, that i would love to clone. >> stahl: it took a while to get it right. one attempt failed, but after two years, adolfo got his wish. the birth of a clone of his beloved aiken cura, who grew into this magnificent, healthy horse, almost exactly like the original in strength, athletic ability, and temperament. >> cambiaso: when i saw him, i couldn't believe it. >> stahl: did you know by just looking-, and of course it was a little foal at that point. >> cambiaso: yes. it was. but... >> stahl: you could tell? >> cambiaso: to make sure, i took some hair from him, and i bring him back to argentina to do the d.n.a. >> stahl: ( laughs ) to double-check.
>> cambiaso: to double-check it was him. >> stahl: at the same time, he decided to clone another horse-d cuartetera. now 17 years old, the original has been playing polo since she was four-- a year younger than most polo ponies, simply because she took to the game so quickly. >> cambiaso: i think she's born to play, you know? there is those horses in life, or like soccer players like messi. it's not many. >> stahl: like you. >> cambiaso: no. i don't know. no. but what i'm saying, this horse is amazing. >> stahl: he took us to the barn where cuartetera lives with eight of her clones. >> cambiaso: you see those-- these two little points-- >> stahl: yeah. >> cambiaso: from this little point is where you make all these horses. >> stahl: this is where they took the cells-- >> cambiaso: exactly. >> stahl: --to make the other? >> cambiaso: to make the other. because of her you get all these ones. >> stahl: and that was what you were thinking? >> cambiaso: yes. >> stahl: "i'm going to clone the best?" >> cambiaso: that was my dream, but everybody was saying that i was crazy. and i like it right now because i'm having a good time hearing those people. >> stahl: yeah, they're saying, "he's not so crazy anymore."
and look what he's done. in seven years, he and his partners have created more than a dozen clones of cuaretera. >> mutto: it's incredible for me. i never lose my, wow, this is-- my production. this is my equine daughter. >> stahl: dr. mutto, who was hired as the lead scientist in adolfo's cloning business, took us to see the cuartetera clones he thinks of as his children. >> mutto: this is cuartetera number five. >> stahl: oh, my god. >> mutto: this is number four. number three. number nine. >> stahl: oh, my god. >> mutto: number six. ( laughs ) >> stahl: you can tell which one. >> mutto: yeah. >> stahl: you're not reading anything-- >> mutto: because i know her by the-- they are-- are all clones. yes. right now, we have 14. >> stahl: just from cuartetera? >> mutto: 14, and next year, ten more. and 2019, ten more. >> stahl: in all, there are more
than 100 clones from several of their best horses. in each case, he said the clones are strikingly similar to the originals in disposition, athletic ability, and appearance. but not exactly. for example, the cuartetera clones all have white markings, but with different shapes and in different places-- some on the face; some on the ankle. but all the cuarteteras seem to have inherited the original's calm, self-contained personality. so the genetics include this temperament? >> cambiaso: yes. >> stahl: and do the clones get along with each other? >> cambiaso: yeah, because they live together all year long. so, from here, they go to the farm together, then they move in blocks. if you take one out of them, they are looking for it. >> stahl: they miss the one that you take out. >> cambiaso: yeah. >> stahl: did the clones have any special health issues? >> cambiaso: no. >> stahl: we talked to scientists at the national institute of health and were
told there is no evidence that cloned animals suffer disproportionate health problems, though they have a slightly higher infant mortality rate. at first, many of adolfo's cloned embryos died during gestation. but, they refined their technique, and now tell us they have an 85% successful birth rate and have not experienced any health problems. so, as far as you are thinking, they're exactly the same in health, longevity. >> cambiaso: si. >> stahl: ability to play the game, all of it. >> cambiaso: similar. similar. not exactly the same. >> stahl: what are the differences? >> cambiaso: there is some that are a little bigger. some eat more, some eat less. or they move a little bit different. but the mind are really similar. the good thing about it, they are machines, all of them. >> stahl: "machines"-- that's polo talk for horses that never quit. but how would they perform in competition? at the final at the argentine
open, adolfo gambled that his cuartetera clones would be as good as the original, and, for the first time, he rode them almost exclusively. that part of the story, when we come back. mitzi: psoriatic arthritis tries to get in my way? watch me. ( ♪ ) mike: i've tried lots of things for my joint pain. now? watch me. ( ♪ ) joni: think i'd give up showing these guys how it's done? please. real people with active psoriatic arthritis are changing the way they fight it. they're moving forward with cosentyx. it's a different kind of targeted biologic. it's proven to help people find less joint pain and clearer skin. don't use if you are allergic to cosentyx. before starting cosentyx
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>> stahl: regulators of thoroughbred horse racing worldwide have taken a firm stand against cloning. but there is no such prohibition in polo, and so, cloning is spreading to teams beyond adolfo cambiaso's. it raises some thorny questions: does cloning give a team an unfair advantage? is it ethical? and where will it lead?
in december, at the final match of the argentine open in buenos aires, one team rode clones, while the other refused to. the competition was as much about the merits of cloning as it was a sporting contest. out of more than 850 professional polo players, argentine native adolfo cambiaso, wearing the blue and white helmet and the jersey marked number one, is the best player in the world. he's held that ranking for 22 years, and is now leading a cloning revolution. he's cloning his best horses; the one he's riding is a clone. he's competing on them-- and winning. when you're on one of the clones playing, is there a special feeling? knowing that, you know, this is something that was your idea, you brought it to life-- >> cambiaso: yeah. in this stage of my career-- the last couple of years for me to play and prove that the clone
works and play with cuarteteras and everything is an extra motivation for myself, for sure. >> stahl: i don't know that you need extra motivation. >> cambiaso: yeah, i do. i do. >> stahl: he's created 14 clones of cuartetera, his very best horse, a 17-year-old mare who is fast, easy to direct and can turn on a dime. she was honored last year as the best polo horse in history. her clones seem to be just as gifted. are they all as good as-- i want to call her mama. i don't- that's probably not the right word. >> cambiaso: the original. yeah. >> stahl: are they as good? >> cambiaso: i already won two argentine opens with the clones, so they will end up being as good as her, i think. >> stahl: cuartetera's clones are identified by numbers. shouldn't they have names? >> cambiaso: they have names. >> stahl: well, they don't. >> cambiaso: cuartetera. >> stahl: yeah, but-- >> cambiaso: cuartetera one, two, three, four-- >> stahl: was that your idea? >> cambiaso: yes. because i-- i believe that she
is a cuartetera. all of the ones that i ride, they are cuarteteras. >> stahl: so, you actually think-- >> cambiaso: she's cuartetera when i play. >> stahl: when you're-- so, six is cuartetera, is-- >> cambiaso: is cuartetera. >> stahl: and when you're on nine, it's the same thing? >> cambiaso: cuartetera. >> stahl: but she's an individual. >> cambiaso: yes. but the d.n.a., it's a cuartetera. >> stahl: but when you have identical twins, they each get a name. >> cambiaso: but this is not twins, it's a clone. >> stahl: they can now create 100 clones a year, and they're using them in adolfo's already- successful breeding business. they mate the clones with champion horses, and sell their foals for up to $250,000. but they never sell the clones. >> cambiaso: you sell the clone, you sell the blood, you sell the line, you sell the d.n.a. you sell everything if you sell a clone. >> ernesto gutierrez: we keep the key of the genetics, and this was, i think, the good business to make that decision in the past.
>> stahl: the idea of never selling the clones came from ernesto gutierrez, a shrewd argentine businessman, who became a third partner in the cloning venture. the cloning operation was set up here on his 500-acre property outside buenos aires, that includes three polo fields, and a nursery where the clones are born. they are carried by surrogate mares who treat them like their own. >> stahl: are these all cloned babies in here? >> gutierrez: all cloned babies? yeah. >> stahl: and these are the surrogate mothers? and does the mother think it's totally her baby? >> gutierrez: totally, totally. look at that. >> stahl: gutierrez took us back to see the newest one-- that three-week-old clone of cuartetera who has her own nurse. oh, look how sweet. and frisky. oh, look at that, oh my. not everyone in polo thinks cloning is a good idea,
including adolfo cambiaso's main rival and opponent at the final of the argentine open. >> facundo pieres: there's a lot of guys cloning. but i think that they have to be careful, you know because, the thing is that they're opening too much, you know? i mean-- >> stahl: pandora's box. you know what that means? they let-- opened the lid. and all the problems come out-- >> pieres: exactly. >> stahl: facundo pieres is number two in the world, right behind adolfo. he showed us what he can do, like dribble a three-inch ball in the air while galloping down the field 20 miles an hour. he's the captain of ellerstina, an old-school team made up of three brothers and a cousin. they are committed to keeping it a family enterprise. do you ever get angry at each other? >> pieres: yes. ( laughs ) yes, but in a good way. never-- never bad. >> stahl: his team is headquartered at another sprawling estate, where they operate a multi-million dollar
breeding business selling foals and embryos. they believe they can produce better horses through their breeding practices, by mixing the d.n.a. of two different horses, rather than by replicating just one. >> pieres: we want to keep it this way. what we have here is amazing >> stahl: in polo, what's more important, the horse or the player? i was told that it's 80% the horse. sorry-- >> pieres: yes, i, i agree. no-- >> stahl: no offense. >> pieres: no, i agree. i agree. i totally agree. i think that the horse is. but of course,ou need to have a little bit of-- of talent and ability and-- and experience in the head, you know? >> stahl: facundo's team, ellerstina, has made it to the finals the last four years, but lost each time to adolfo cambiaso's team. fueling the rivalry on the field is a bitter history between them. adolfo played on the ellerstina team for nine years. >> cambiaso: because of what
happened, that i left ellerstina and the rivalry is there-- >> stahl: intense. >> cambiaso: yeah. >> stahl: to this minute. >> cambiaso: yeah. >> stahl: do you feel it too? >> cambiaso: but it's fun. >> stahl: oh, you like it-- >> cambiaso: you've got to have rivalry to be better player too. >> stahl: there's more. before he left ellerstina, adolfo bought cuartetera, as an embryo, from the pieres family-- the very horse he is now cloning to compete against them. >> cambiaso: i was lucky to end up with cuartetera. >> stahl: you cloned from the best horse in the world. >> cambiaso: but she's born on my farm. i create her. >> stahl: there are people who object to cloning on religious grounds. or on moral grounds. so what is the answer when people challenge you? when they say, "man should not be doing this," because of these difficult spiritual questions? >> cambiaso: i don't see it, i don't see it wrong, to be honest. i'm just-- doing something for-- to improve my game, my sport. and i think the cuateteras did
improve my game, my sport. and i'm not going farther than that. >> stahl: but, is there an unfair advantage in terms of the game, in terms of the sport? >> cambiaso: no, because everybody's able to clone. now everybody's kind of trying to start cloning. so the advantage is that i did it seven years ago. >> stahl: so in 30 years, people will still be riding cuartetera? >> cambiaso: yes. >> stahl: and so it could go on forever. >> cambiaso: yes. yes. >> stahl: alan meeker, the texas businessman who is adolfo's cloning partner, is well aware of the controversy around cloning technology in the u.s. and the ban against it in thoroughbred horse racing. is a really good polo player-- does he have an unfair advantage if he's on a clone of one of the best polo horses ever? >> meeker: of course. horses are 80% of the game anyway. so if facundo pieres finds a horse that is better than
cuartetera, then he has an advantage over his competitor. >> stahl: but he'll have only one. and that horse will get tired, and he'll have to switch to another horse in the game, whereas adolfo will have eight. >> meeker: right. >> stahl: so it's still an advantage. >> meeker: right. >> stahl: is that fair? >> meeker: under the rules, it's fair. there's no restriction on-- >> stahl: i know, but the game-- but sportsmanship, just the nature of the game. has this changed the very essence of the game of polo? >> meeker: no. i think what it's done is probably raise the bar. >> stahl: you're going to have to clone. >> meeker: could be. yes. >> stahl: do you have any moral problems with cloning a human being? >> meeker: yes. i disagree with it. i know a good reason, lots of good reasons to clone body parts, like hearts and lungs and pancreases, if it could be done in a productive manner, that can save lives. but i've been asked by some of
the wealthiest people on planet earth to clone a human being, and we-- >> stahl: you have? >> meeker: absolutely. and the answer is always a resounding "no." >> stahl: well, they must have a reason. >> meeker: and they won't give it to me. >> stahl: they don't tell you why? >> meeker: no. >> stahl: i'm thinking, if science can do it, science will do it. and maybe one day, you know, there will be clones and we'll laugh at all the people who were questioning the morality of it now. >> meeker: someday, someone will do it, and we will either laugh or we will cry. but i'm not going to be the one to take that-- that leap. >> stahl: it could be done today. >> meeker: yes. >> stahl: i assumed there'd be a big difference between a horse and a human. lots of differences. >> meeker: surprisingly little. yeah. surprisingly little. >> stahl: at the final match at the argentine open, adolfo's team and the clones were expected to win, but seven minutes in, facundo's team was ahead, three goals to one.
adolfo's team fought back. at half time, the score was: the cloners, seven; the breeders, six. it was so tense that at times it was as quiet as a tennis match. the end of the game was thrilling. as expected, adolfo's team was ahead, 13 to ten, but then facundo's team, in a final blast, came back to tie the match. >> cambiaso: i never think i'm-- i'm going to lose. i never. >> stahl: well, we saw you right before the overtime. >> cambiaso: yeah. >> stahl: and here you are. like that. >> cambiaso: in that moment, i was trying to think, "which is the best horse for that moment?" >> stahl: he debated. should it be cuartetera nine? or five? finally he picked number six. in the first minute of the sudden death overtime, facundo's team lost control of the ball.
adolfo's team recovered, and adolfo on his mighty cuartetera six outran everyone, and whacked the ball, setting up the winning shot. watching, you had to wonder: was it the clones, or the world's best player, that made the difference? ( crowd roars ) i look like most people. but on the inside, i feel chronic, widespread pain. fibromyalgia may be invisible to others, but my pain is real. fibromyalgia is thought to be caused by overactive nerves. lyrica is believed to calm these nerves. i'm glad my doctor prescribed lyrica. for some, lyrica delivers effective relief for moderate to even severe fibromyalgia pain.
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>> pelley: 50 seasons of "60 minutes." tonight, from march 12, 2000. ed bradley conducted one of the most chilling interviews in this broadcast's history. timothy mcveigh, the oklahoma city bomber, was sentenced to death for setting off an explosion which killed 168 people and injured more than 600 others at the murrah federal building. it was, up until then, the worst act of domestic terrorism in american history. >> bradley: we met him at the maximum security u.s. penitentiary in terre haute, indiana, where he now sits on death row awaiting a date for his execution. because of his appeal, one of the conditions his lawyer laid down was that we not ask him directly, "are you the oklahoma city bomber?" >> timothy mcveigh: maybe one of the benefits of me talking to you today is that you'll see that maybe not everything is true that you've heard about me. >> bradley: for example, what's not true?
>> mcveigh: well, am i-- am i pure evil? am i the face of terror, sitting here in front of you, or am i able to talk to you man-to-man? >> bradley: most people in this country think you are the face of evil, don't they? >> mcveigh: they do. but sitting down here now-- and let me make clear i'm not sitting here trying to influence you, and i'm not putting on a game face. i'm not conning anybody. i'm just being me. >> pelley: timothy mcveigh was executed at terre haute on june 14, 2001. i'm scott pelley. we'll be back next week with another edition of "60 minutes."
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let's go. thank you, brother bao. sam: we think hetty's in trouble, and we think we know where she may be. vietnam? admiral chegwidden was looking for her. he was in ho chi minh city with charles langston. you will give up your secrets, one way or another. (screams) (hetty laughs, spits) this is not gonna end well for either of us. (gunshot) mosley: i suggest you figure out why she's there. might want to start with who took that photo. we're booked on the next air china flight to vietnam. let's go get hetty. i have a surprise for you. he's very hungry. a man eater. (laughs) (growling) (dang laughing) ♪