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tv   Face the Nation  CBS  May 8, 2022 8:30am-9:30am PDT

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captioning sponsored by cbs i'm margaret brennan in washington. and this week on "face the nation," the future of a woman's right to choose an abortion is in jeopardy in many states across the country. as an unprecedented leak of a draft supreme court decision to overturn roe vs. wade creates the political equivalent of an earthquake. there is turmoil around the nation as republicans and democrats scramble to figure out what the political and the practical impact of new abortion restrictions could be. house speaker nancy pelosi will be with us. plus we'll hear from south carolina republican congresswoman nancy mace. then ukraine's military is on high alert this weekend, bracing for more attacks, as vladimir putin plans to celebrate
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russia's annual victory day. ukraine's ambassador to the united states, oksana markarova, will be here with the latest. plus we'll hear from the c.e.o. of lockheed martin, jim taiclet, about what his company is doing to help provide weapons for the war effort in ukraine. and, finally, we'll take a look at the politics of this year's round of congressional redistricting fights with former obama attorney general eric holder. his new book is "our unfinished march." it is all just ahead on "face the nation." "face the nation." ♪♪ >> brennan: good morning. and welcome to "face the nation." it has been a turbulent week across the country as one of the most esteemed institutions in our government, the supreme court, experienced something that happens all of the time here in washington: the leak of a
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document to the media. but this leak was explosive, not only does it draw into question the sanctity of the court, but if the draft opinion written by justice samuel alito holds, roe vs. wade may be overturned early this summer. currently, abortion access is federally protected up to the point of viability. if overturned, abortion could become illegal or significantly restricted in 23 states. republicans have been reserved in their reaction, but democrats are furious. and we go now to the top democrat in congress, house speaker nancy pelosi, who joins us this mother's day from san francisco. happy mother's day to you, madam speaker. >> thank you. happy mother's day to you, marrying. >> brennan: thank you. before we get to abortion, we had the surprise visit on mother's day by the first lady, dr. jill biden, to ukraine. last sunday you were in kyiv meeting with
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ukraine's president. how quickly can congress deliver this $33 billion in aid that has been promised? >> i think we will be able to do it as quickly as possible. we have great bipartisanship in terms of our support for the fight for democracy that the people of ukraine are making. we have respect for the strategy of the president of ukraine, and we have recognition of the need for weapons -- more weapons, more sanctions, more economic assistance, and more humanitarian assistance. i was very proud to be there with my colleagues to talk about those veryk> brennan: you think you can get that done before the end of the month? >> i think we have to. i think we have to. the specificity with which we discussed these matters with the president, the president of ukraine, the
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connection that we have with the ambassador, who you will have on this show later -- we're very current on the needs and the urgency. and, again, we will have bipartisanship as we go forward with it. >> brennan: okay. madam speaker, i want to talk to you, of course, about abortion. california's governor, gavin newsom, said democrats have failed to target republicans on this issue. here is what he had to say. >> where is the democratic party? where is the party? why aren't we calling this out? this is a concerted, coordinated effort, and yes -- they're winning. >> brennan: why would pro-abortion rights democrats outmaneuvered? >> i have no idea. the fact is we have been fighting for a woman's right to choose. and that is to choose. we are fighting against republicans in the congress constantly because the fact is they're not inanti-woman's
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right to choose in terms of terminating a pregnancy, but in terms of access to contraception and family planning and the rest, both domestically and globally. this is a constant fight we've had for generations -- decades, i should say, in my case, in the congress. and the -- we had been bipartisan early on, support for a woman's right to choose, until the politics have changed. and that's what happened to the court. the science hasn't changed. but the court changed, and therefore they're deciding that it should be different. i have no idea why anybody would make that statement unless they were unaware of the fight that has been going on. ightinrissen democrats held majorities in 2009, when you were speaker, president obama was asked about roe vs. wade and said abortion is a moral and ethical issue and,
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quote, "not the highest legislative priority." do you think it was a mistake for him, for other presidents not to push harder when the democrats had the majority? >> if i may, the focus we have right now is an urgent one in order to try to improve -- try to improve -- we're calling it a fake or draft decision -- whatever it is -- bs a waste of time. the fact is in '09 we did not have a pro-choice democratic. i had to fight against some of the people who did not want to pass the affordable care act because they were afraid it might enable more freedom of choice. right now we do have a pro-choice democratic congress and we passed the law months ago -- >> brennan: you did in the house in september. >> it has been a while, with a number of votes.
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>> brennan: but the votes aren't there in the senate. >> well, the senate -- you'll have to talk to the senate about the senate. but i do think that it puts an urgency on what is happening in the election. one or two more senators could sweep back the filibuster rule for this purpose. and then a woman would have the right to choose. this is about something so serious and so personal and so disrespectful of women. here we are on mother's day, a week after the court has slapped women in the face in terms of disrespect for their judgment about the size and timing of their families. so the fact is, let's keep our eye on the ball. the ball is in the court. those justices, one of them at least, said over and over again that precedence has been established again and again on roe vs. wade. so this decision is about
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being anti-precedent and anti-privacy, and has furious ramifications as we go down this path. it has to be softened. i don't think there is a good outcome, but there is a better outcome as far as this is concerned. again, let's be prayerful about this. this is about respect for privacy. what's next? what's next, marriage equality? >> brennan: do you need to write bills to en shine enshe those things, birth control access -- the things you think might be next, do you think you need to legislate them if you think the court may overturn them? >> what is interesting, margaret, about this, for decades i've been trying to say to my republican friends and women care
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about a woman's right to choose, that you can't do that -- you've got to weigh in with your own party on this. barbara bush early on -- republicans were very much about family planning and respect for women. so the thing is that most people always thought that this debate in the congress was about the termination of a pregnancy. but it wasn't. my republican colleagues have said to me on occasion, we're not for any family planning domestically or globally. because i was trying to get them to support us on some global family planning issues. we're not for any of it. and most people don't know that. and we don't want to be -- this is a fact. this is a fact. that's what they believe. >> brennan: but given the urgency with which you're speaking, the reproductive choice act, to abortion rights republicans in the senate, susan collins and lisa
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murkowski put that forward, but when you do have republicans interested in working together, is that strategic mistake? you say this is an emergency? >> it depends on what the legislation is and what the impact that it has on women's lives. enshrinement of roe vs. wade into the law is a in order to protect a woman's right to choose. i don't know why they say they're for that and can't be for this legislation. should we all have a discussion and find our common ground? always. always. either for the enshrinement of roe vs. wade or you're not. it is the law of the land for nearly 50 years. the precedence of it has been reaffirmed, what, 14 times? the republicans were very clear when they had a presidential campaign, that campaign was to elect a president who would
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appoint judges who would overturn roe vs. wade. one more point in that regard: mitch mcconnell pulled back the filibuster rule in order to have those justices confirmed by not needing 60 votes. this is a political decision on the part of this party. the rule of law should be respected, and women should be respected to make their own judgments with their family, their doctor, their god. >> brennan: speaker pelosi, thank you for your time this morning. "face the nation" will be back in a minute. stay with us. eyes on the ball baby. digital tools so impressive, you just can't stop. what would you like the power to do? can a company make the planet a better place? at walmart, we're pursuing 100% renewable energy in our operations. and aiming to protect millions of acres of land.
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so we can all live better. >> brennan: the c.i.a. director said yesterday that russian president vladimir putin is doubling down on his invasion of ukraine and does not believe he can afford to lose. violence is now escalating in the east. cbs news senior foreign correspondent charlie d'agata is in ukraine.
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>> reporter: the ukrainian government blames russian forces of bombing a school where dozens of people were taking shelter in luhanz. this is some of the destruction left behind after a rocket attack struck several residential neighborhoods. amid the ruins, everywhere is evidence of ordinary lives violently interrupted. a woman's shoe, children's toys scattered on the ground, a favorite jacket now hanging from a tree. a few miles further east, in luhansk, emergency crew search for survivors, where ukrainian authorities say 90 people were taking shelter. they wanted all elder women and children to escape, as many as 2,000 ukrainian forces remain, some medics, in badly wounded, some still
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fighting to the end. we traveled to the battered village of belluca, around 100 miles north of mariupol, where 10 russian battalion groups have already been redeployed. u.s. and ukrainian intelligenc says those russians are now amassing on the outskirts of this town, and clearly have come under artillery attack, the explosions are ringing out now. we found arena, her neighbor in the ruins of their homes. all around, shredded metal, shattered windows, belongings blown out of bedrooms and on to branches. can you describe what happened?[speaking foreign language] >> reporter: i was just sitting in the corridor when the explosions happened, she said, covering my ears and praying. the explosions deafened me. oh, my gosh, she says.
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that happened a lot?[speaking fn language] >> reporter: there is no water or electricity. she is desperate to flee but said she can't leave her bed-ridden husband behind. i just want peace to come to this land, she said. i don't want anymore war and anger. that village is right on the path of russia's main advance from the south. here cramatorsk is on the firing line from the north. the russian strategy is to close that gap and surround tens of thousands of ukrainian troops. margaret? >> brennan: cbs news has learned that the biden administration is sending a small group of american diplomats, including the acting ambassador to the u.s. embassy in kyiv to counter russia's vehicle day celebrations.
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they tell cbs the embassy hopes to resume operations and raise the american flag there in the coming weeks. we turn to the ukrainian ambassador to the united states, oksana markarova. good morning. >> good morning, and happy mother's day to you. >> brennan: and happy mother's day to you and all of the mothers out there. president zelenskyy says he will speak to president biden and other world leaders this morning. what do you expect? >> thank you. as we celebrate the 77th anniversary of the end of world war ii, it is crucial we do everything to stop the russian war started in europe again. so the presidents will raise everything we have been discussing during this past 73 days: more military support, more sanctions, more financial support to ukraine. we count on all of our friends and allies to help us with everything so we can stop russia while it is still in ukraine.
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>> brennan: president putin is expected to make a speech tomorrow in red square. it is not clear exactly what he is going to announce. but the c.i.a. director said yesterday putin is doubling down. what exactly are you preparing for? >> well, we though that there are no red lines for the russia russia in moscow. so we're preparing for everything. they said they were not going to attack us, and they did. they said they wouldn't take the crimea, and they did. and they said there are no civilians, and yet they did. they raped and tortured them. we can count that putin and imperialistic russia will do everything they can forcibly try to do. the question is: are we all prepared, the civilized world, to do everything possible to defend our democracy and freedom? and ukraine has showed for
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the past 74 days that we bravely defend those values and defend our homes. >> brennan: there is some speculation that putin could officially acknowledge the country is at war and then start conscripting shoulders, scripting soldiers andstart buit offensive in the east? >> that is the first time putin will tell the truth, that it is war. i hope it will be evident to all russians what they're doing in ukraine. it is an aggressive war, they attacked a neighboring country, a peaceful country. and the question is: are they prepared to have more tens of thousands die in ukraine for no reason at all? >> brennan: the u.s. said a few days ago that russia is planning sham elections and they're going to try to annex parts of your country donetsk, luhansk in the east, and also kherson.
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they're renaming schools and streets, teaching russia curculum, so what does dismantling this part of your country actually do? if you want to goa get to a peace negotiation, they are already swallowing parts of your country. >> this is part of their m.o. we saw it in crimea. so they try to create the sham elections. they cannot find enough ukrainians to participate in them, as we saw in kherson and other places. we will never recognize it. the whole world will never recognize it. and we will do everything on the battlefield, and also diploma diplomatically to restore our democracy. >> brennan: so the world will never recognize it? >> ukraine has to be whole within the ynlly internationally
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recognized borders. >> brennan: so the sanctions would stay on, is another way to say that. >> absolutely. >> brennan: we are seeing these reports out of mariupol that there were some successful evacuations. it is just a dire humanitarian situation there. can you tell us what is happening on the ground? who is left there? >> our brave defenders, a a lot of wounded and a lot of doctors are still there. our president has done everything possible to evacuate the civilians. we have to remember that 95% of mariupol is destroyed. that tens of thousands of civilians died in mariupol, were killed by russians. more mariupol citizens were killed by russians in two months than by nazis during two years of nazi occupation in -- during the world war ii. so we are calling on everyone to do everything
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forcible to get our wounded soldiers, to get our people, to create all possible corridors in order to get our people still out, where they bravely defend the ukrainian flag. >> brennan: that's at that steel plant where they have website hold up with some civilians? >> yes. >> brennan: they have had -- who exactly is helping? what does that mean? is that on the ground help? just diplomatic? >> we know that the u.n. secretary-general has been in direct contact with our president, and also with others. there are a lot of diplomatic discussions with other states on that. so i think, you know, after the war we will be table to talk about all of the efforts that were done. >> brennan: israel, for example? >> but on the ground it is
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our brave civilians. so many of our soldiers from this plant, who are trying to help civilians to get out, have been killed and wounded during this attempt, too. >> brennan: how significant is the intelligencering sharing intelligence-sharing that the u.s. is providing to ukraine? we hear a lot about the weapons, but what about the sharing of information? >> the sharing of information between ukraine and the west, with our friends and allies, is at the level we never had before, and we really appreciate it. >> brennan: ambassador, thank you for your time today. >> thank you. >> brennan: we'll be right back with a lot more "face the nation," so stay with us. lex supply chain to satisfy cravings from tokyo to toledo? so you partner with ibm consulting to bring together data and workflows so that every driver and merchandiser can serve up jalapeño, sesame, and chocolate-covered goodness
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>> brennan: we want to turn back to the fight over abortion rights with republican congresswoman nancy mace of south carolina. happy mother's day to you, congresswoman? >> thank you, and happy mother's day to all of the
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moms out there today. >> brennan: i want to have a conversation with you here, and then we'll continue it on the other side of this break. but first up, you are against abortion, but you believe that victims of rape and victims of incest should sti do you think those exceptions should be backed up with a federal law? >> well, absolutely. i'm someone who i am pro-life but i do support exceptions for rape. i'm a rape victim myself. and when you realize what has happened, the trauma, the emotional and physical trauma in a woman's life, she should make that decision with her doctor, in between her and her god. i worked to support those exceptions in my life, not only as a state lawmaker but with members of congress. i told my rape story, and those stories are often
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missed and criticized, and women are attacked when they tell those stories. that is something i've talked about extensively throughout the years as well. >> brennan: i know you have, and i want to talk to you about those as well because there is so much nuance here. i want to take a quick commercial break and i want to ask you in more detail what kind of legislation you think could pass at the federal level, and what needs to happen at the state level. so stay with us, if you will. we'll be back in a moment. you're probably thinking that these two are in some sort of lover's quarrel. no, no, no. they're both invested... in green energy. and also each other. digital tools so impressive, you just can't stop. what would you like the power to do?
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>> brennan: we'll be right back with congresswoman nancy mace. so stay with us. ♪♪
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♪♪ >> brennan: welcome back to "face the nation." we want to continue our conversation with south carolina republican congresswoman nancy mace. congresswoman, you have spoken publicly about being molested when you were 14, raped at age 16, and how that has shaped your convictions about rape. you said it took 25 years to talk about your attack and that you, um, only shared it with your mother and one of your good friends. so i wonder what you think about some of these restrictions in states that would require rape victims to provide police reports in order to obtain
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an abortion. >> right. i can't speak to other states. from experience as a state lawmaker, i know that south carolina fetal heartbeat bill would not have passed without exceptions for rape, in crest, and the life of the mother. it is a story that is often missed and not told because women are afraid. you can even see in public comments and on social media when i talk about it, the ways in which i get attacked for telling that story. one of the things i think partially that is missing in this conversation is that, is when ohio did their fetal heartbeat rule, there was a 10-year-old girl raped repeatedly by her father. as part of the republican party platform, the vast majority of republicans support those exceptions for rape, incest, and life of the mother. it is important for us to
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step forward and tell those stories that are often missed. >> brennan: to be clear, you would support a vote in congress, federal legislation, to enshrine those exceptions? >> yeah. i think one of the things that is missing, and i'm glad you're bringing this up, in all of the conversation, the media coverage about roe vs. wade being overturned, this is not an all-out federal ban on abortion, but it puts it back into state legislators and into congress. you saw congress ban late-term abortions, for example. what this does is puts it back to the states, puts it back into congress to deal with and figure out. even ruth bader ginsburg, who we all know was working for women's right -- >> brennan: she did. >> she knew that roe vs. wade was flawed. >> brennan: she did. she said that back in the '90s in her confirmation process. so let's talk about states then. the governor of south carolina, your home state, said if roe vs. wade is overturned, he wants
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further restrictions, without those exceptions of rape or incest. he is considering restricting abortions after six weeks of pregnancy. is that too restrictive? >> well, i would only support legislation in south carolina that had exceptions for rape and incest and life of the mother. >> brennan: what about six weeks of pregnancy? >> well, that bill has already been signed into law. the fetal heartbeat bill for south carolina that he signed, i guess it was last year. it was six to eight weeks when the heartbeat was found, but that bill had exceptions for rape and incest and life of the mother. so that law is already on the bi books in south carolina. it will be up to the legislature t to determine if they want more restrictions. >> brennan: when we look a a national poll, it shows the majority of americans who want to keep
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the status quo. at the state, do you think the south carolina legislature is in tune with public opinion here? our polling shows more than two-thirds of republicans say abortion should be generally available or available in stricter limits. is it a political mistake to paint this as pro-life, pro-choice? >> well, i think that some of the polling is merky, too. it depends on how you ask the question. there is polling that says there are 25%, some say up to 30%, who say they want abortion under any terms. they don't want any restrictions. so they says there are a majority of americans who are okay on restrictions. if you look at europe, there are many european countries that don't allow abortion after the first trimester. >> brennan: 13 weeks. >> in poland, they don't allow any abortions unless it is rape, incest or the life of the mother. so it is a complicated
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issue. and portugal is 12 weeks. >> brennan: right. congresswoman, i want to quickly ask you, you're being primaryed by a trump-backed candidate. >> my position on life, with exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother is in line with my district and the majority of the voters in my state as well. we have raised over $4. 5 million for this race, and i'm working very hard to win this, not just by single digits but by double digits. i think he has been given bad advice. mmy opponent had her top secret security clearance revoked for releasing classified information about our military. she voted for the highest tax hike in south carolina history.
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there are very stark contrasts in our record. i've got 40 days to go until the june primary. >> brennan: we'll watch >> brennan: we'll watch for it. thank you, cyn. we'lcongresswoman.we'll be righ. clin ch
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>> brennan: we now turn to jim taiclet, chief executive officer of lockheed martin. good morning to you, sir. >> good morning, margaret, happy mother's day to you. >> brennan: thank you for saying that. we hear time and again the most powerful tools that the ukrainians have are these anti-tank, russian tank busting missiles annoyed as valve as javelin li, which your company produces. how quickly can you get more to them? >> the president visited us in troy, alabama, to thank the workforce this week. we really appreciate what he has done for us. we are, therefore, on our side, excel rating our
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side, accelerating in our factory there, by tooling to expand the plant and to get ready to ramp up capacity. right now our capacity 2,000 per year, and we're trying to get that up to 4,000 a year. it may take a couple of months to get there because we have to get our supply chain to also crank up. we think we can almost double the capacity in a shortest amount of time. >> brennan: raytheon says they couldn't get going to 2023. but you can start when, exactly? >> we're starting now to ramp it up. because we have an active production line right now that the president saw. and, also, we have a supply chain that is active, in addition to that. we can start turning up the heat now and ramping up the production immediately because of those circumstances.
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>> brennan: you said -- well, you implied your basically doing it on spec? >> that's right. >> brennan: you're anticipating that order is going to come through. we don't know how long this war is going to last. the c.i.a. says vladimir putin thinks he has to double down here. so how long are you planning for with this ramp up? >> we're planning for the long run, and not just in the javelin because this situation has highlighted a couple of really important things for us. one is that we need to have superior systems in javelins, stingers, advanced cruise missiles, so we know there is going to be an increased demand for the u.s. and our allies and beyond no the asia pacific, too. the second valuable lesson was control of the air space is really critical. the ukrainians are managing to control their air space. the russian air force doesn't have free reign
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over the entire company. and they have a pretty affective air missile defense system. so f-16s, f-35s, we know there is going to be increased demand for those kinds of equipment, too, because the threat between russia and china is going to increase even after the ukrainian war, which we hope is over soon. though two nations are not going to get less active. they're probably going to get more active. we need to make sure we can comply our allies and our country. >> brennan: what do you need to do that? i read there is over 250 microchips or semiconductors in evil each javelin. >> that's right. >> brennan: we know there is effort to get more here rather than relying on asian suppliers. can you do this scale-up
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without that kind of legislation? >> it will be extremely helpful to have a partisan invasion act passed, for example, because we nore in domestic supply, especially in microprofessors. microprocessors. we are going to need more capability in microprocesser, not only in design, but in manufacturing and testing, so were have a supply in the future. >> brennan: we've heard on this program time and again from business people how important that is to get done. congress still hasn't voted it through. >> right. >> brennan: do you have any commitments from anyone here in washington to get this to the president's desk soon? >> we know there is a lot of support for it in congress and the administration -- >> brennan: because it takes time to scale that up? >> it takes years. we're comclcollaborating with intel.
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and we're going to need the most as advanced processers, and so having that domestic capability again to go all the way through production and testing is going to be more important in the future than it is even today. >> brennan: and you make f-35s fighter jets and germany is trying to buy them. do you have enough workers to meet all of these requests? >> we have enough now, but we know, for example, in the f-16 line as well that we're building up in south carolina, we need more workers. so we're recruiting heavily. we have a strong workforce in texas, so that production line is running fine there. we have sufficient employees there to do that. but in other parts of the country, and ultimately in texas, we're going to need to actually hire mere more people. >> brennan: thank you very much for giving us insight to your business,
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being here in person. >> glad to do it.
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>> brennan: every 10 years, the 50 states redraw their political boundaries based on
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population changes. some states can gain seats in congress, others might lose some. the process is almost always messy. cbs news' ed o'keefe took a look at four redistricting sites. >> reporter: in four big states this year, four red and two blue, democrats and republicans could agree on a redistricting plan, so courts were asked to intervene. new york's highest court threw out a map saying lawmakers didn't end it right on a non-partisan commission. new york lost one hout seat, and although republicans hold eight seats, the new map would make it difficult for republicans to win more than four. the court has appointed an official to draw up yet another map due this month. in illinois, after the state lost the house seat, democrats eliminated two districts where republicans were expected to win. republicans challenged the new map in court, but it
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is likely to stand. the g.o.p. is also guilty of creative process. texas is gaining two seats in congress, and although minorities accounted for 90% of the state's population growth, the republicans redrew the map by limiting competitive districts were democrats were making gains. >> it will dilute the increased minority voting strength that should have developed from these significant demographic shifts. >> reporter: and in florida, which also a gained seat, the republican governor insisted they draw a map that eliminated an historically black district. potentially giving republicans four more seats. >> we're not going to have a 200 mile gerrymander that divvies up people based on the color of their seat. that is wrong. >> reporter: democrats have filed suit, but they're running out of
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time. >> the black population in florida that lives north of the i-4 corridor, their voices will be diluted. >> reporter: when the dust settles after this decades round of redistricting, it remains to see if either party will have a distinct structural advantage nationwide. whether the new lines are fairly drawn, that's a matter of political preference. for "face the nation," i'm ed o'keefe in washington. >> brennan: and we turn now to former obama administration attorney general eric holder. he started a group in 2016, the national democrat redistricting committee to help the party redraw congressional lines. and he has a new book out called: "our unfinished march." good morning to you. >> good morning. >> brennan: glad to have you here. in the book, you write both parties have embraced gerrymandering when they were in control of state governments. but you say democrats were caught asleep at the wheel when r republicans started investing in some of the
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races. how do you respond to that? >> ours was fight for fairness. we brought a lot -- successfully brought a lot of lawsuits in order to make sure that the process is done in a fair way and so that the american people actually pick their representatives, as opposed to politicians picking their politicians. sue to blue is what we're doing. >> brennan: you think democrats have an advantage going into the mid-terms versus where you started out? wire>> we certainly stopped the republicans based on the redistricting they wanted to do. we have more fair maps than we did coming out of the last redistricting cycle. the thing that really worries me is we have 43 fewer co competitive seats as a result of both parties. >> brennan: you haven't
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challenged any democratic gerrymanders. both of the maps passed by democrats were thrown out by courts in maryland and in new york. do you have a problem with what happened there? >> i indicated my opposition to what happened, as to what the legislature did in maryland. in new york what i said, those are not the maps i would have drawn in new york. my guess is after the courts look at what happened in new york, you will see maps that are different but not fundamentally different. you can't compare what happened in new york and maryland to what is going in texas, george, florida, wisconsin, where republicans have gone to town in terms of gerrymanders. fundamentally different from w democrats have done. >> brennan: how so? >> texas is getting two additional seats because of the increase in the hispanic population, they have not increased the power of hispanics in texas at all. they have created more majority white districts in texas. the map that you see in
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new york reflects really a population shift, a hollowing out of the rural areas in new york, as well as an increase in the urban areas in new york. there is a census bureau basis of what is happening in new york that does not exist in the republican states. >> brennan: you heard what is happening in florida and what governor ron desantis describes. he says what he is doing with redrawing is race neutral. i know you strongly disagree. are you saying that the gerrymandering there is rooted in racism? >> it is certainly race conscious. he is doing away with a traditionally black seat -- certainly it is a black factor. it is certainly a component of their thinking. they're going after democrats and the fact that the democrats they're going after happened to black i don't think is necessarily a coincidence. the suit we won in alabama, where we said you
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should have additional representation for the black inhabitants of alabama, those districts were certainly drawn with the fact they would disenfranchise african-americans in alabama. >> brennan: i want to ask you about alabama. the supreme court has tried not to get directly involved in what they deemed political gerrymandering, but they have signaled they are willing to hear cases involving issues of race. there are still elections scheduled in november in the state of alabama, even though the court will hear this case. do you think that the maps being redrawn in alabama will ultimately be deemed to be illegal and therefore the election should be invalid? >> well, it is an interesting thing. they're going to have an election in november based on maps that judges, including two trump judges said were inappropriately, unconstitutionally drawn, the supreme court said the too close to election. what the supreme court will ultimately do with section 2 of the voting
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rights act, which was the basis for the lawsuit in alabama, will remain to be seen. one of the things i talk about in my book, this notion of us getting to some structural changes, we need to ban partisan gerrymandering. we need the structures of our democracy ife're going to try to save it. >> brennan: you have a lot of different recommendations in the book. it is a long to-do list. the problem that you sketch out here, you say that the entire democratic system, essentially, is broken, as i understand it. unnecessary democrat process, and a stolen supreme court -- a stolen supreme court. you say every person having an equal say in our democracy, one person, one vote, is far from a reality. >> yes. >> brennan: you're saying the entire system is broken. so if republicans within control of congress in november, is that election -- dt
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have integrity? do you not accept the upcome of it. >> >> i wouldn't say everything is broken -- >> brennan: ureading i wasreading from your book. >> there is a substantial part that needs to be examined and repaired. what i try to pointito in point is wehave faced these isss before, and we have heros who through sacrifice and commitment have made a difference. and we have the capacity, i think, to make these kinds of changes. banning partisan gerrymanders. we have two stolen seats, oone merrick garland should have. what i talk about in the book is say, look, we should have a term limit, 18 years, and everyone president should have an
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opportunity to nominate two justices per term, to try to take some of the pressure out of the partisanship -- >> brennan: republicans would probably disagree with your characterization of how that played out. merrick garland is now in your old job. there are critics who are saying he is not being aggressive enough around the prosecutions regarding january 6. do you think that is right? >> no one knows. i have great faith in merrick and the people at the justice department. we won't know how aggressive they have been beenuntil they are before a jurisdiction. perhaps that prosecutor in atlanta are going to have to make a determination whether or not they want to indict president trump. >> brennan: would you do it? >> i think there will be sufficient proof of intent.
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i'm an institutionist. and my initial thought was not to indict the former president because of ou divisive it would be, but given what we have learned, i think he probably has to be held accountable. >> brennan: we'll leave it on that incredible note. mr. holder, thank you for your time and for sharing your book. we'll be right back.
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>> brennan: that's it for us today. thank you all for watching. and to all of the mothers watching, happy mother's day to you. until next week, for "face the nation," i'm margaret brennan. ♪♪ captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh
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