tv Charlie Rose PBS May 5, 2015 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening two staff members from charlie hebdo. they are gerard biard and jean-baptiste thoret and the lessons therein. >> it shocked people. >> i swear in the u.s. you know, but we are tradition because we are deciding, we are sometime attacking you know, just the ideas. that's very important. literal practical person, you know what i mean, it's very important. an institution left wing, right wing, sport. we have to say between 2005 and
2015, just seven -- where about the prophet. >> rose: we conclude this exwith the conductor of the boston pops orchestra keith lockhart. >> i've always been amazed by the emotive connective power of music. it can bring people to tears without the benefit or perhaps without the limitation of language. this strong direct emotional messaging that music provides. and to be able to share that with people. that's really what performers do. there's two reasons to be a performer. one is what it gives to you and the other one is the chance to share this amazing thing. you just want to say this is a huge part of my life, here, check this out. >> rose: charlie hebdo and the boston pops when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie
rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin with this story from today's news. two againman open fired at the site of the mohammed cartoon drawing contest. it was organned by the freedom defense initiative that uses the name -- the asaleients wounded an unarmed security guard for being killed by a traffic officer. incident has stirred comparison to the deadly charlie hebdo
attack in paris early this year. two armed brothers forced their way into the magazine's office and opened fire in response to public mohammed cartoons. 12 people were killed including the magazine's editor. the pen america's center will honor charlie hebdo with freedom of expression courage of award and a celebration of the office from around the world. this has ignited a controversial and some have withdrawn from the event in protest. two join us they are editor in chief gerard biard and writer jean-baptiste thoret. welcome. tell me about your reaction to what happened in texas. >> to be honest, i can't imagine the kind of comparison you can make between the charlie hebdo attack of january 7th. it has nothing to do. >> absolutely nothing.
you have as you said sort of anti-islamic muslim, very harsh muslims against the islamization of the u.s. it's just a question of the kind of lesion -- it's nothing to do with that. >> we don't we don't recognize conflict here, we just do our work. we comment the news when something jump out of the news we do amount if you didn't, we didn't we don't. so the this, the main of this
wasn't shameless right left politician. it's a well-known method. we are historically, we are anti-racist newspaper. from the 60's to now it's one of our main issue. we fight -- and we have nothing to do with these people. >> rose: we'll talk about many thing here this evening. but first where is and how is charlie hebdo the publication today? >> how is it? >> rose: yes. >> it's in a strangely way very good shape because you know, we saw a lot of -- eight million.
people called the survival issue a generation i think it's sort of regarding the french, you know, eight million because it's huge. but today we have to rebuild because -- and the writers too. you have to find another way to find new writer, it's a very special moment. >> rose: what has been the consequences of the event beyond the terrible human toll for france and for paris? >> it was, we felt that at the
very moment, that people understood what we were doing each week in charlie hebdo. what values we stand for. >> rose: define those values. >> yes. >> rose: what are those values? >> first of all freedom of expression. freedom of conscious. and what we call in france lazy -- maybe it can be translated secularism. >> rose: yes secularism. >> sorry for my accent. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> so we became sort of a symbol. not only in france. even all over the world. i think it's the reason why we are here.
>> rose: we'll talk about that. but also the reaction to see those people in the streets of paris on that day with political leaders up fronted. it was a remarkable show. >> yes. you have to, i think you have to wait. it was on january 11th, sort of huge, you know millions, millions of people in the streets. so. of course -- it's this kind of communion, the way that people understood and react because they felt in a very unconscious way sometimes that's sometimes very important for them as being attacked two days before, you know. but it's important to say that all the french people were the
day in the streets. to see this huge -- >> rose: they were in the streets or they were not. >> they were not. you at that moment, you had two friends. the friends who walk in the street on sunday and another friends who was not in the streets. and i think it's important -- >> rose: what's the importance of the french not in the streets? >> because that means that for some of the people, we have this debate january 7 for some of the people, maybe we shouldn't have you know draw the -- maybe we go a little too far, you know. that's interesting because that's also the reality -- and people say that it's -- >> rose: is any of this
because of the values you're expressing, because there's more vigorous debate of this kind in france than most places. the bigger of back and forth, the bigger of pushing the envelope, if you know the expression of freedom of expression. >> it's very hard to say because we have this, in france, i know some of the documents some of the color of charlie hebdo could have offend people in the u.s. you know but we are tradition because we are criticizing, we are sometimes attacking you know, just the ideas that's very important. literal particular person you know what i mean, it's very important. an institution left wing, right
wing, sports and we have to say on 500 colors between 2005 and 2015, just seven on 500 were about the prophet, just seven. seven colors, you know. >> rose: where were you on the morning. >> i was on vacation. i was in london. and a neighbor of the staff was not in the offices called me and i was just doing my shopping you know. i was with my wife and a phone to me and he told me you know, i know you're not at work, but i must i must tell you that it
has been an attack a deadly attack in charlie hebdo. and then it all began, you know. i didn't, my phone ring all the time, rang all the time. i didn't i had to know who was injured, who has been shot who was dead. i didn't manage to do it because my phone explode. so finally i got to the french embassy and they come, they bring back in paris and only the evening when we came back
finally in paris, i knew who was injured, who was still alive and who was dead. >> rose: where were you. >> i was in paris. i was about to take the subway for the office. i was maybe 10 or 15 minutes you know. and just before i went into the subway station i received a lot of texts and messages and my phone ring. i debating, i thought it was something bad is happening to you, you don't think right away to your job you think something happened to your wife to your children. anyway, and then i understood very quickly that something happened to charlie hebdo and people asking me if i was there what happened and so. >> rose: there had been threats before and there had been an attack before. in some cases there was police protection. >> yes. but first of all, the former
attacks, it was just about material, you know and so on. never people have been attacked. just material -- and maybe it's very hard to understand because you know, all the people in charlie hebdo and especially the cartoonists, they are the main targets, the cartoonists the people who draw cartoon because i don't think they read the article, they're obsessed with the sketches. you don't have to speak. the french way to understand or to interpret the cartoon. and where all conscious about this question. but when we're drawing just enough of this cartoon with a cartoon of little guys. you are not in fact really
prepared to that. a lot of people say you know these some issue, it could be done. but you know, in the other side of your brain you don't i think you don't really believe that could happen in this brutal way you know. you say okay, we know some people all over the world excited by the cartoons they are burning some flags. of course. but the cartoonists seem to use it's so a little thing you know. >> rose: but was there much internal discussion about, quote, crossing the line? when you go too far? >> there's always discretion when we choose. we never choose the color just like that. we always have debate and it's
generally a collective decision. i do not decide okay, this cartoon will be a color. >> rose: it's a collective decision. >> yes, it's a collective. >> rose: when you look back, would you have done anything different? >> of course not. of course not. this question of crossing the line or not, if they are interpreting because i think the line is inside you, you know. did i write the right article did i make good judgment. because you can make very bad judgment, it happens all the time, you know. but it's the reason to kill
people? no. >> rose: no one makes that argument. >> of course. but the question of the line is very important. it depends on you. that's very important. the lining is, you know it's very hard to say i am crossing the line, i'm not crossing the line. if you show off what you are intending for, no doubt about that, it would be okay, you know. >> rose: you know garry trudeau. there have been criticisms of the award to you and also at same time confirmations and in support of it. garry trudeau has said that quote by attacking a powerless disenfran championshipped minority with crude drawings closer to graffiti than cartoons, charlie wandered into the are realm of sheet speech.
by -- >> rose: by the prophet. >> of making fun of power. the prophet internal power it represents, the power, we attack prophet. just like we attack our president. or an institution. we're not attacking -- >> rose: political party. >> we're not attacking citizens. we're not attacking people. we're attacking ideas. >> rose: has defended the choice stating from our perspective the courage is central. the diminution of the terrain of free speech cannot happen through the barrel of a gun. >> maybe there is a lot of
confusion. this is given okay for the -- freedom of speech. but this is january 7. this is not for charlie hebdo, i mean you can disagree of course with some articles. we are sometimes among the -- there is a lot of debate a lot of debate. all of the content of charlie hebdo, all of the 16 pages of this magazine from the beginning to today we are supporting that. >> rose: some people make this distinction. i was horrified by the tragic
murders at the charlie hebdo office, i have nothing about sympathy for the victims and survivor. i despise the use of violence as a means of enforcing silence. i believe charlie hebdo has every right to publish whatever they wish but that is not the same that charlie hebdo deserves an award as a friend wrote me first amendment is the right of neo naziism to march but we're not giving them award. there's certain respect and admiration for the work that has been done and for the value of the work. although i admire the courage which charlie hebdo insists on its right to provoke and challenge the doctrinaire i don't believe they deserve such an honor. this is about the award and giving the award. it's not about you. and talking about going too far. what was the how would you define any limits with respect
to islam and mohammed. was there a place where you discussed the cartoon or an idea and said that's not who we are that's not what we want to do ever? >> yes, of course. there was a huge discussion when we published for the first time. the cartoons, the danish cartoons 2006. we published one newspaper, one french newspaper called francois -- and the day after the cartoon were published, the editor-in chief of this
newspaper was fired. so we decide to publish this cartoon with an explanation. we didn't publish this like that and okay, anyone say what he want to say. no, we explain we decided also some cartoons. but we are to do that. and we made a color. it took hours to draw this very cartoon. >> rose: hours to draw it. >> yes. not to draw, to draw the cartoon -- >> rose: the idea of the cartoon. >> the idea of the cartoon, yes.
and so, we want this cartoon to make a difference between islam and between islamism and between people, between believers and between politicals of belief. >> rose: do you believe, therefore, that believers not islamists or jihaddists were offended? >> i mean, all kind of critics produce people who are. do you know a safe critique of politics, of sports of religion, i don't know that. a real critique absolutely. you will always find someone where we say i have a friend named what you say what you
draw, what you wrote. if you are starting to think about the people which feel offended, you stopped writing you stopped cartooning, you know. it's important, i mean when they draw the cartoon now there was a caption in french. it's very hard to -- that's the exact sensation -- that means we are not attacking muslims, we are not attackerring islam we are using the -- >> rose: for you, attracting, as you were saying, islamists, your words is no different than attacking le pen which you attack frequently. >> it is the same.
it's politics stuff politics that's all. that's it. not about religion. we don't care about religion to tell the truth. we care about the political use because we think that it's dangerous to use religion with political things. >> rose: that's an opinion not unique to you. a friend of mine with adam -- i'm sure both of you know, wrote in the new yorker the work i've written is not for those who like subtlety in their satire but it was not entirely to my own taste. but they were still radically democratic and egalitarian in this views with one passion being to have hypocrisy of organized religions. few groups in french history has been more passionately -- more
marginalized or on the outs with the political establishment. more vict trollic, they were always punching up at idols and authorities. no one in france has for example been more relengthlessly, courages lace contell scious of the extreme right wing le pen. >> the problem you're attacking the institution, you're attacking people with power and maybe we are attacking people that are making discrimination and what about the discrimination are and we have a conversation about religion and sports and we're attacking soccer. we're not very fond of soccer.
>> rose: you mean violence at the soccer stadium. >> no. the principle of this sport we don't like in charlie hebdo. that's one of the comments, the thing that we share. >> rose: what don't you like about it? >> the fact that, sorry the fact that -- >> in france, it's more than popular. it's -- >> rose: it's a religion. >> yes. >> rose: there's a great difference between soccer. even the pope has spoken out against you. >> you think his roll is to consider that -- >> rose: one religion is an attack on another religion. >> it's always the same philosophy. >> rose: it's an attack on people who want to hijack a
religion. >> in a way. in a way. about the point -- >> rose: what does that have to do with mohammed? couldn't you attack them without attacking mohammed, i'm asking. would that have weakened -- >> it's a symbol. it was it's a symbol, that's all. >> we also attack jesus. we make many cartoons, we make more cartoons about jesus than we did about mohammed. >> rose: what do you say about jesus. >> you don't want to know. >> rose: hollande is easy. because political figures, political figures.
if you are attacking, politicians in one way or another have an element of hypocrisy, an element of -- >> yes but you have to consider that for the -- magazine there is nothing secret. that means it affects everybody but nothing is secret. >> rose: nothing. has this in any way made you bolder? because you are already bold. >> no. it's what i wanted to say like it's my own opinion. i don't think that it's normal to be afraid. of violence.
of threatening. it's natural. but i don't think that in this case, it's the -- because it's if you say okay i'm afraid, i stop. or i go lower and you a wrong to people who did that. you say to them you're right you're right. violence it works. you see? >> rose: yes. >> and so, they'll use more violence. >> rose: because violence has been used there's no time to pull back and it's time to say that we will not be silenced by violence. >> no. >> rose: but i mean again here's what the pope said. >> it's my opinion. >> again the pope. >> rose: because you
responded to the pope, that's why. pope said one cannot provoke or insult other people's faith. one cannot make fun of faith. there is a limit. every religion has its dignity and freedom of expression there are limits. you responded to that by saying every time we draw a cartoon of mohammed or the prophet or a cartoon of god we defend the freedom of religion. we declare god must not be a political or public figure he should be a private figure. if political argument steps into the arena -- all believers to life in peace. >> yes. if you see where religion and religious people are
discriminated, are in jail, are killed, it's faith. the only way to prevent this is secularism because secularism is the frame of conscious. anyone can believe or not. >> rose: are you surprised you are getting the pen award, a prestige association of writings. the writers of the pan america center wright this letter objecting not to -- i'll read it. it clearly arguable the murder at the charlie hebdo is sickening and tragic. what is neither clear or inarguable is a decision to receive an award for creative
freedom of expression. what criteria was used to make that decision. by honoring charlie hebdo does not convey and support freedom of expression but selecting offensive material that's anti-islammic -- already prevalent in the western world. that is in the letter. my point is, do you have anything to say about this controversy about giving the award to you other than thank you? >> because we are always turning around the same kind of issues and subjects, you know. first of all who is this going to decide the kind of limits you put the freedom of speech. that's a very important question. >> rose: very important question. >> and i think maybe there's just one so it's a question of for me the real issue of all that is are you enough intelligence, are you enough decent to know exactly what you
are going to do. the affairs -- the limit is right here. i mean a lot of people, maybe we could open a school where you can learn to contemplate images because so many people see images. but they don't understand the kind of images, they don't make this effort, you know, just the to saw what is this cartoon about. if you do, this work, this effort. you can see that all the debate we have finally are useless. i mean it's a question of i think it's a question of intelligence. it's very very important. >> rose: here's what he said on that. no. you did have one cartoonist did you not, that said he was not --
>> yes. >> rose: basically said he stopped drawing mohammed cartoons. he said in response from my point of view he was known to -- laid to work but did arrive to see the body of his colleagues and later drew a cartoon of the scene that the magazine did not publish. why not? >> because it was not meant to be published. it was -- >> rose: expression of his own. >> it was a catharsis. it had to it was a truth cartoon he drew after the slaughter. and he had to draw what he saw. >> we have the discretion -- say this cartoon won't be published. maybe it could have been published but after
discretion -- that's not when every cartoonist draw cartoon, it would get on the wall and when we choose the cartoon we are allowed to publish they are all on the wall. they are all on the wall and we choose together and he say this one no, this one no. it's my cartoon, it's my own. >> rose: thank you for coming here and sitting at this table. >> you're welcome. >> rose: it's a pleasure to meet you. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. ♪ ♪
>> rose: that was keith lockhart at his first appearance conducting the boston pops in 1995. that's right this was 18 years ago. he's performed with the orchestra nearly 1700 times. the boston pops is believed to be the most recorded ochestra in the history. its mission is to give a wide angle view of what constitutes good music. they celebrate keith lockhart's 20th year at the podium and i'm pleased to have him at this table for the first time. welcome. >> it's great to be here. >> rose: tell me what the boston pop is. >> the boston pops is a hundred and i guess now about a hundred 30 year old american arts institution that was established to do something that no other
performing arts group in classical music did in america and that was to spread the gospel of great symphonic music to the widest possible audience. it was indebted from the very beginning to play for a wider audience and was thought of the appropriate if you will classical music audience. >> rose: it's had legendary conductors. >> there have been 20 conductors of the boston pops but only three since 1930. >> rose: and they are fiedler and who else. >> john williams. >> rose: the great john williams. >> and me. >> rose: and you. three. why music for you? >> that's a good question. i grew up in aman musical household. i grew up with the kind of parents who wanted to make sure i had the opportunities that they had been denied so it wasn't an option that i wouldn't at least have to experience and explore these things. for some reason it took. i ended up by the time i left high school so involved in music that it was pretty much
everything i knew. that having been said, i didn't have any role models, i wasn't going into the family business. i thought i was going to be a lawyer. turned out that i couldn't do that. i couldn't leave it. and i ended up in something that i've been blessed to be able to make a living in as well. >> rose: bringing you great joy. >> what an amazing combination. >> rose: what is it about music. you had to have talent to be a good conductor >> well, i mean every conductor starts life as a musician of some sort. an instrumentalist vocalist pea yuan owist. i use that analogy a lot because people don't know what a conductor does. the conductor is the person who
takes 80 immensely talented individuals and makes a great team like a good football team. >> rose: people often use being a symphonic conductor as sort of, it's bringing all the best elements at the right time together that you're looking for. an orchestra conductor has to do that with his players. >> it's a wonderful job. the opportunity to add nuance to something that's already amazing to look at the totality of something. every player is busy with their specific role. we need this and a little bit of this and we need to slow down here. you need to create something that's greater than this. >> rose: how did you get to be the conductor you are? >> i don't know. i went on i actually went to
under grad and was counseled by one of my teacher who didn't want another mediocre pianist out in the world. have you thought about this because you enjoy the coaching and teaching aspects of that. you seem to be good at the analytical parts of the job. i exploded a little bit and i headed in that direction. and you know i've been going in that direction ever since and that's 35 years now. >> rose: great conductors have a great relationship with the orchestra. they know the tenant. >> it's like leadership, you have to know the individuals and how to get the best out of them. >> rose: what part of it do you enjoy the most? >> since i was a kid and was not able to give voice to it, i've always been amazed by the emotive connective power of music. it can bring people to tears without the benefit or perhaps without the limitation of language. this strong direct emotional
messaging that music provides. and to be able to share that with people. that's really what performers do. there's two reasons to be a performer. one is what it gives to you and the other one is the chance to share this amazing thing. you just want to say this is a huge part of my life here check this out. >> rose: take a look at this. this is a clip of you conducting the boston pops on july 4th 2014. fireworks spectacular on boston's charles river esplanade. here it is. ♪ ♪
>> rose: you're going to see me in action because i was invited to be the guest conductor, a role that mike wallace and some other great friends of mine have done, much better than i did. but nevertheless that's how we met. you were doing this then. and both hands like this. when is it that and when is it with the baton in one hand. >> the funny thing is i haven't used a baton in about a decade now. it is the traditional symbol i suppose of the conductor's office. and most symphonic conductors use a baton but not all. there are wonderful conductors of history who haven't. i haven't done it for physical reasons. i was having shoulder problems
like a repetitive thing. i didn't miss it when it was gone but i used it for the first 21 years of my career. it just showed i was so far away from the orchestra. i was trying to hold these massive forces together and then in a live performance situation which is basically where you go to the traffic cop part of the job. >> rose: this is when i conducted the boston pops, i can't conduct. i stood in front of ochestra and they led me. this is pops on the lawn. kennedys are there and representatives are there and they come to listen to great music. all of it conducted here it is me in the role of play conductor. ♪ ♪
in the house. >> it's hard to stay one distracted by that amount of sound, at the end of a great symphony. you have to remember you have to be the force for that to happen. >> rose: the thing that most excited me was being able to, are the only thing you need to know is up, down. >> we try to keep it simple when you've only got a ten minute lesson. >> rose: exactly. tell me about this season. what does this season look like. the peters is there. >> this season at the pops in symphony hall. it's one of the great boston rites of spring and has been since 1885. it's my 20th anniversary season. we're opening with bernadette of course. just one of iconic broadway figure and she just never, she's always amazing on stage. i had a crush on her in music theatre in the 70's and now i get to work with her. audrey mcdonald is joining us later in the year. maybe one of the most talented
people i've ever been on the same stage with. just always amazing. we're presenting the music of the beatles, slightly after the 50th anniversary of the british invasion. we are doing mad men concerts in contribute to love with the 60's as we wind down the adventures of don draper. we're doing sondheim. bringing sharyl crow. a lot of different things in different directions. >> rose: the concert we saw i guess on boston's river esplanade. >> that will be my 21st sometime what we like to think of as america's birthday concert. we have 650,000 people showing up. >> rose: combination of fireworks, charles river and music. >> and two hour concert with the boston pops. >> rose: this was the first
orchestra to make chaikowsky's july 4th. >> it is our fault. it dates back to the mid 70's when arthur fiedler was talking to david and david asks what's that piece that ends with the cannons and the church bells going off. he said i think that should be a july 4th thing. for better or worse people who don't have a sense of heumple go that's a russian piece about victory over the french. >> rose: is there other countries that have something like boston pops. >> elements of. and boston pops like so many things in western based on european models. the concerts and beer gardens of germany and the proms in london. what we do throughout the year
is unique. >> rose: you have said part of your job is to protect the tradition of live music. >> i think these days pretty much every performing artist, part of their job is to protect not just protect the tradition but to sell the concept. we live in an age where so many people get their entertainment and the cultural information increasingly insular pods. the arts about live performance. they're about engaging community coming together with other people. experience life to be made live. to be part of the performance. and as you know in kind of a web-based culture we now live in, that's more and more out of fast. but it is absolutely necessary. i think for societal reasons as well as the survivor of the art form. >> rose: where does the funding come from? >> the boston symphony and the boston pops who are the same organization, we are unique
among orchestras in that we manage to do about close to have of our income through ticket sales, through earned income. the rest of that funding is from passionate individuals and corporations who wanted to make their community a better place. federal funding has never been a huge part of the art scene in the united states, not as it is in europe where it pretty much switched from world patronage to governmental funding. >> rose: you've been there. how has it changed. >> the easiest story how much the world has changed from that period of time when i came to boston to take the podium in 1995 i didn't have a cell phone or e-mail address and i wasn't strange for not having those things. that in itself tells something about how much, what our expectations are have changed. another thing that has changed is that when i first came to boston, we were selling concerts pretty much on the same model
that arthur fiedler. the pops were playing forty saturday, sunday, go get your tickets. there was no programs, what the artists were or themes were. we have much more discerning consumers these days. they want to know exactly what they're getting for their money before they make substantial investment. >> rose: do you decide for the boston pops at hyannis, do you decide the entire program? >> in the boston pops anywhere ultimately, i say it depends if you like the program or not. generally it's my responsibility now the overall programming. i have people who work with me to help make those programs. and we do take the hyannis concert has gone on for years and years. it was founded by hairy -- who was artzup fiedler's assistants conductor and dukakis' father. interesting connections in massachusetts. so we worked with them to determine something that they think will play well for their
audience. and as you know there's 15,000 people come together in this wonderfully old fast american scene with picnic blankets out and list anything to music. >> rose: you also conducted bbc concert orchestra. what is that? >> that is one of five or orchestras believe it or not that are employed by the bbc in the united kingdom. two in london. one of the one is in london. this is an orchestra that does many different things. i just did a three week tour in the east coast of the united states with them, 14 concerts in 21 days. that was very much traditional classical symphonic repertoire but this is the or coast tra that does much of the sound tracking. if you've seen frozen planet or blue planet that's my orchestra. it's nicely with the boston pops job. i love those and the commute between boston and london is not a very difficult one. >> rose: thank you for
coming. >> a pleasure for being here. >> rose: have a great summer. >> thanks. >> rose: we'll have you back. just to be there just to be there. i would do anything to be back on stage but it really is a lovely afternoon. >> you should come up, i mean seriously you should come up and take advantage of the kennedy invitation. but the best thing about having you there was the only people who failed doing that because obviously we don't expect you to be a musician or know ha you're doing in that situation, that's the people who don't enjoy themselves. >> rose: if that's the test i succeed famously. thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh